Strange...

[jb512]

I have a question for the group to see if anyone else has had a similar experience.

We have a pilot who is a former Major, USMC.  We have submitted his promotion paperwork along with his DD-214 and he keeps getting rejected.

He has yet to complete a form 5 and has no other position in the squadron, so am I to assume that the bosses want him working before he promotes or is there something we're missing?

[Eclipse]

I have a question for the group to see if anyone else has had a similar experience.

We have a pilot who is a former Major, USMC.  We have submitted his promotion paperwork along with his DD-214 and he keeps getting rejected.

He has yet to complete a form 5 and has no other position in the squadron, so am I to assume that the bosses want him working before he promotes or is there something we're missing?

Seems weird to me as well.  Assuming he's completed Level 1 and OPSEC, its pretty unusual for these promotions to get bounced.

Someone should ask Wing directly why its happening...

[Pylon]

My first point would be that you need to contact the disapproving authority, through the chain, to find out what the deal is.

I see a few potential areas from CAPR 35-6, which I've bolded for emphasis:

SECTION C - SPECIAL APPOINTMENTS
12. General. In consideration of appointment to certain key positions in CAP, special educational qualifications, or previous CAP or military experience, certain senior members who meet the minimum requirements outlined in 6 above are eligible for initial appointment or promotion to a grade commensurate with their position or experience, as outlined below. Future advancement is subject to qualifying for a higher grade under these provisions or meeting the duty performance eligibility requirements outlined in paragraph 11b above, whichever comes first. Promotion procedures are outlined in paragraph 8 above. To be considered for this type promotion, the member must meet the following minimum eligibility criteria:

a. Be at least 21 years of age.
b. Be a high school graduate (or educational equivalent).
c. Complete Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program.
d. Complete Cadet Protection Program Training (CPPT).
e. Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended.
f. Be recommended by immediate superior and unit commander.

15. Regular and Reserve Officers of the Armed Forces. Regular and Reserve officers of the Armed Forces of the United States, active, retired or resigned, may be advanced to a CAP grade equivalent to their grade in the Armed Forces (but not to exceed lieutenant colonel), in recognition of their military knowledge and experience. Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 5. This provision also includes members of the Reserve components (Air National Guard, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard Reserve)  ...   NOTE: The unit commander will initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card, or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).

So yes, the approving authority can reject the application but it's likely that they're rejecting for a specific reason.

The most compelling reason is in Section C, Paragraph 12 (General).  The Major must "Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended"   That's not a suggestion; it's just as much a requirement as the Major having Level I complete.  He or she should be performing for Civil Air Patrol in a capacity or duty that befits the grade of Major.  In other words, flying the occasional O-flight or being Asst. Test Control Officer probably would not meet that requirement.

Take a look at the CAPF 2 that you've been submitting.  Did you detail all the required information in the remarks section, or did you just check "Maj", staple a DD214 to it, and send it up the chain? 

A good CAPF 2 will have a cover letter explaining the recommendation for promotion and some brief background information on the individual.  The remarks section will cite paragraph and chapter from the reg, and indicate that the Major has completed Level I, is over 21, has a high-school diploma, etc.  Then attach documentation showing Level I is complete (e-services print out with Level I and CPPT highlighted would be a convenient way to do this), along with the DD214 copy.  You should also explain in the remarks section what duties this SM is carrying out to meet the "exemplary manner" requirement.   Then send your complete packet up the chain for approval.  It will have a much higher chance of getting approved.

Our downfall is that in trying to recruit officers and former/retired officers is that many people tell them "Oh yeah, you can join CAP and get automatic promotion to your rank".  That's not the case, even if in many areas it is treated like that.   If the approving authority comes back and says "We don't believe Lt Col John Doe warrants the promotion at this time based on the information provided" you've got egg on your face and have potentially discouraged an otherwise great recruit.

[flyguy06]

How many commanders actually stress that "perform in an exempliary manner" thing? I dont know of any. My Squadron Commander will sign a promotion as soon as you meet the requirememnts. Maybe thats a bad thing. I dont know. I guess he figurwes there is no need to stress a volunteer and it not like the volunteer is loosing or gaining any money by getting promoted or not. So some members, in fact most members I run across really dont care about what they wear on their shoulders

[Short Field]

You need to contact the person who is disapproving the CAPF 2 and find out the reason for the disapproval.  Something is wrong somewhere.  While these promotions are" neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority", the promoting authority should have a good reason to disapprove the promotion.

I have submitted at least six CAPF 2 for promotions based on military rank this year.  Section II must show they have completed Level I, with the dates.  I e-mail the CAPF 2 and the only documentation is a statement in Section IX. Remarks that I have verified the military rank by seeing the military ID Card or the DD Fm 214 and a copy is on file in the squadron.  No problems with any of them - they are normally approved and updated in e-Services within a week.

Having said all of that, I do sit on some CAPF 2s waiting for the person to become active - i.e. attend meetings on a regular basis and participate in our activities (bearing in mind that military requirements often slow down their participation). 

[mikeylikey]

How long has the Major been in CAP?  The only thing I can think of his he knows someone at Wing (or Group) who does not like him.

[Camas]

The most compelling reason is in Section C, Paragraph 12 (General).  The Major must "Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended"   That's not a suggestion; it's just as much a requirement as the Major having Level I complete.  He or she should be performing for Civil Air Patrol in a capacity or duty that befits the grade of Major.  In other words, flying the occasional O-flight or being Asst. Test Control Officer probably would not meet that requirement.

Our downfall is that in trying to recruit officers and former/retired officers is that many people tell them "Oh yeah, you can join CAP and get automatic promotion to your rank".  .

Good point; that's certainly part of the problem.  The philosophy of many who are a position to approve promotions is that if there's no good reason to disallow the promotion, the promotion should be approved.  Yet the idea of automatic promotions is open to question.  Personally I'm in favor of promotions no higher than captain for those at squadron level and perhaps field grade at group or wing - but that's just me.  I'm a member of my wing awards and promotion board and I don't always get the final "say so".

[RiverAux]

I would have expected whoever disapproved it to say why they disapproved it, especially when such promotions are generally done on autopilot. 

[Cecil DP]

I would have expected whoever disapproved it to say why they disapproved it, especially when such promotions are generally done on autopilot. 

'

The reg actually requires an explanation of why an appointment (officers are appointed, NCO's promoted, Enlisted E1-3 are advanced) is disapproved. We had the same problem a few years ago with an officer who was in my squadron, when Wing didn't give an explanation after two disapprovals, he appealed to Region, on the grounds that they gave no reason for disapproval. He was a Major, befre the week was out. 


f. If any commander in the chain of command disapproves a recommendation for promotion or request for waiver, he or she will so indicate over his or her signature on the CAPF 2 and will return the CAPF 2 to the initiator through channels. If the National Promotion Review Board denies a request for waiver, it will also be returned to the initiator through channels. In neither case does such disapproval preclude the individual from being recommended for promotion at some future date.

[RiverAux]

You could satisfy that regulation by writing "Denied" and signing your name below it.  Doesn't require an explanation.  However, as a matter of common sense, why wouldn't you tell them why it was denied if for no other reason than having them send the same thing again and again. 

[KC0IEA]

Are you sure that the former USMC Maj does not know why the promotion was denied?

We have several officers who have been denied qualifications from multiple examiners for inability to perform the required task to an acceptable level during training.  Only to have them keep asking their squadron commander when they are going to get their qualifications signed off.  The reason has been explained to them multiple times but they keep trying to find a way around the system.  It finally slowed down when the commander asked the question, and it was explanined to them also.

Not saying this has happened but be sure of the facts.

[riffraff]

A good CAPF 2 will have a cover letter explaining the recommendation for promotion and some brief background information on the individual.  The remarks section will cite paragraph and chapter from the reg, and indicate that the Major has completed Level I, is over 21, has a high-school diploma, etc.  Then attach documentation showing Level I is complete (e-services print out with Level I and CPPT highlighted would be a convenient way to do this), along with the DD214 copy.  You should also explain in the remarks section what duties this SM is carrying out to meet the "exemplary manner" requirement.   Then send your complete packet up the chain for approval.  It will have a much higher chance of getting approved.

This sounds like administrative overkill. Neither CAPR 35-5 nor the instructions for CAPF-2 require attachments and/or justification letters for officer of the armed forces promotions. Fill out Sections I and II; click the desired rank in Section III and applicable box in Special Appointments. List what you reviewed in Section IX and you're done.

The Sqdn CC is the verifying authority for the supporting documents (DD-214, ID Card, or promotion orders). He/she is basically saying they looked at the document(s) and recommends the promotion. There is no requirement to forward the reviewed documents nor is there any requirement for copies to be made and/or retained.

Section IX needs a one liner -- Per CAPR 35-5, Section 15, reviewed DD-214 (or ID card or promotion orders) and verified it supports the requested rank. Be brief and concise.

Has the Major in question completed Level One training and is he actively participating? As mentioned, these promotions are not automatic. There is also no mechanism within CAPR 35-5 to allow the promotion to be made to some intermediate rank -- i.e. the Major in this example is either made a Major or else made to go through the process like any other non-prior-service member.

Clearly promotion based on flying experience is a possibility? Also perhaps a professional skill is possible (lawyer, doctor, chaplain)? Otherwise, it's SM for 6months and then 2LT.

[jb512]

I guess we'll just have to check into it.  He's completed all the prerequisites and requirements.

Thanks for the help.

[Pylon]

A good CAPF 2 will have a cover letter explaining the recommendation for promotion and some brief background information on the individual.  The remarks section will cite paragraph and chapter from the reg, and indicate that the Major has completed Level I, is over 21, has a high-school diploma, etc.  Then attach documentation showing Level I is complete (e-services print out with Level I and CPPT highlighted would be a convenient way to do this), along with the DD214 copy.  You should also explain in the remarks section what duties this SM is carrying out to meet the "exemplary manner" requirement.   Then send your complete packet up the chain for approval.  It will have a much higher chance of getting approved.

This sounds like administrative overkill. Neither CAPR 35-5 nor the instructions for CAPF-2 require attachments and/or justification letters for officer of the armed forces promotions. Fill out Sections I and II; click the desired rank in Section III and applicable box in Special Appointments. List what you reviewed in Section IX and you're done.

The Sqdn CC is the verifying authority for the supporting documents (DD-214, ID Card, or promotion orders). He/she is basically saying they looked at the document(s) and recommends the promotion. There is no requirement to forward the reviewed documents nor is there any requirement for copies to be made and/or retained.

Section IX needs a one liner -- Per CAPR 35-5, Section 15, reviewed DD-214 (or ID card or promotion orders) and verified it supports the requested rank. Be brief and concise.

Has the Major in question completed Level One training and is he actively participating? As mentioned, these promotions are not automatic. There is also no mechanism within CAPR 35-5 to allow the promotion to be made to some intermediate rank -- i.e. the Major in this example is either made a Major or else made to go through the process like any other non-prior-service member.

Clearly promotion based on flying experience is a possibility? Also perhaps a professional skill is possible (lawyer, doctor, chaplain)? Otherwise, it's SM for 6months and then 2LT.

Administrative overkill?  It ensures all of our paperwork gets processed quickly, without question and without being rejected.  The approving authority is the ultimate decider whether or not the Major is participating at the appropriate levels and meets all the requirements.  There are plenty of squadron commanders who do not understand all the regs and would sign anyways, so providing the approving authority with the collateral evidence is never a bad thing.  It helps substantiate and expedite your request.

[Major Carrales]

I'm a believer in "Kill them with proper documentation."  With internet, it is not unreasonable to scan and "pdf" such documents for ease in promotion.

Our Group commander also requires a citation of the reg along with docmentation.

[Short Field]

Our Group commander also requires a citation of the reg along with docmentation.

Gee.  (All other comments strongly considered but deleted before posting)

[Major Carrales]

Our Group commander also requires a citation of the reg along with docmentation.

Gee.  (All other comments strongly considered but deleted before posting)

I made the comment because I thought the subject was "Why forms get rejected."  one method to surely have a form rejected is to fail to include the proper comments. It won't get past Group.

[AlphaSigOU]

I made the comment because I thought the subject was "Why forms get rejected."  one method to surely have a form rejected is to fail to include the proper comments. It won't get past Group.

As I've already found out the hard way with a recent Form 2 special promotion in my squadron.  To make a long story short, he didn't get the promotion.

[riffraff]

Administrative overkill?  It ensures all of our paperwork gets processed quickly, without question and without being rejected.  The approving authority is the ultimate decider whether or not the Major is participating at the appropriate levels and meets all the requirements.  There are plenty of squadron commanders who do not understand all the regs and would sign anyways, so providing the approving authority with the collateral evidence is never a bad thing.  It helps substantiate and expedite your request.

The military paperwork system was designed to be relatively straightforward. It's the people within the system that seem to want to overcomplicate things. IMO, adding extraneous documents only perpetuates the problem. It also implies a complete lack of trust at the squadron CC level -- i.e. the squadron CC is the verification authority for the supporting paperwork. Is a squadron CC really not competent to look at a DD-214, military ID card, or promotion orders? They're pretty simple documents -- rank on the top line and character of service at the bottom.  Military ID card/CAC -- a picture, name and rank. Promotion orders? Name, SSN, and grade promoted to. Do you really need a supporting letter and copies?

Finally, floating copies of any documents bearing anyone's personal info is a really, really, bad idea. With identity theft at records levels, safeguarding sensitive info is of paramount importance. E-mails of DD214s with name, address, SSN, service history being cc'd to anyone and everyone serves no purpose, isn't required, and puts the person's ID info at risk.

The only requirement is that document(s) (military ID, DD-214, or promotion orders) be reviewed (by the initiator) and a comment made in Section IX. There is nothing that says attach copies or retain copies in the personnel file.

Form 2 requires checking a few boxes and adding a comment in Section IX:
I have reviewed (insert document name) and, per CAPR 35-5, para 15,  they meet/support the requirements for requested grade.

Someone mentioned that Group require citing the appropriate reg. If you include it in Section IX, you're covered.

My day job is lecturing corporate and military clients about SOUBS -- Stomping Out Unnecessary Bull S--t.

Sorry for the drift.

With regards to your USMC Major: maybe there's a desire to wait a bit to evaluate his level of participation? Since he's already a pilot, a promotion to 1LT (presuming commercial pilot) should be reasonably easy to accomplish and then resubmit for Major at a later date. Ideally you'd really want to know why the promotion was not approved.

[RiverAux]

WIWASC ("When I Was A Squadron Commander" -- trying to start a new acronym  ) I sent up a lot of promotions that were just checkmarks on the form and never had a problem. 

[Major Carrales]

WIWASC ("When I Was A Squadron Commander" -- trying to start a new acronym  ) I sent up a lot of promotions that were just checkmarks on the form and never had a problem. 

Well, I am a Squadron Commander presently and that is not my experience. 

I find that if I send a "naked form" that is just check marks for things like special promotions they will come back rejected.  Likely due to the abuses of the past.

And, lets keep the newspeak (WIWASC) to a minimum.

[Short Field]

My day job is lecturing corporate and military clients about SOUBS -- Stomping Out Unnecessary Bull S--t.

CAP is working hard to streamline our processes - most promotions and speciality track advancements are handled on e-services with minimal paperwork.  The only level that really knows how a person is performing and particiapting is the squadron - with the Squadron Commander making the decision if the performance and participation are adequate. 

The only cases where HHQs need to be vigilent and require justification are those "good old boy" promotions done under the Special Appointments/Promotions section for "Exceptional Qualifications (waivers).   

The criteria for the rest of the promotions is very clear cut.  Failure to promote someone who qualifies should be the exception to the rule and require specific justification.

[RiverAux]

Well, unless it isn't something that isn't in a checkbox, then you shouldn't have to explain it any further.  The only item that requires any additional explanation is if you're trying to use the "Exceptional Qualifications" waiver, which will have to go up to Region.  Everything else is obvious. 

[jb512]

Well I know they don't have to honor it, by the regs, but you would think that a Major, retired from the Corps would qualify for his gold leaf on a grey slide with a side of CAP on it...

[Eclipse]

Well I know they don't have to honor it, by the regs, but you would think that a Major, retired from the Corps would qualify for his gold leaf on a grey slide with a side of CAP on it...

Devil's advocate only...

Why?  What specific skill, knowledge, or mission capability does he bring to CAP?

Would he expect to walk into a non-military SAR organization, with nothing else but hid 214 and expect to be a mid-high-ranking leader on day one?

[jb512]

Well I know they don't have to honor it, by the regs, but you would think that a Major, retired from the Corps would qualify for his gold leaf on a grey slide with a side of CAP on it...

Devil's advocate only...

Why?  What specific skill, knowledge, or mission capability does he bring to CAP?

Would he expect to walk into a non-military SAR organization, with nothing else but hid 214 and expect to be a mid-high-ranking leader on day one?

He's a pilot.

[Major Carrales]

Promotions honoring prior service and exceptional skill are OK in my book because they reflect experience and training.  If a lawyer comes to the unit or an experienced teacher or even pilot, I have no ethical problem with them obtaining rank in CAP.

Still, I would think that documenting that up the chain is important.  We are not a "rinky-dink" outfit where rank is a mere trifle.  The only reason it is seen a somewhat "meaningless" is because people at places like this forum seem to want it that way.

On the contrary, CAP rank needs to have meaning...in CAP.  A refelection of where one is in the program.  Just like ribbons.  I can easily tell a newby to CAP, even if its a Capt or Major, based on which ribbons do not appear. 

Some out there seem to think ribbon wear is also a trifle, however, I submit that (unlike the military) CAP ribbons speak volumes about what a person has done since they are issued as a graduation to various levels.

[Monty]

Promotions honoring prior service and exceptional skill are OK in my book because they reflect experience and training.  If a lawyer comes to the unit or an experienced teacher or even pilot, I have no ethical problem with them obtaining rank in CAP.

Still, I would think that documenting that up the chain is important.  We are not a "rinky-dink" outfit where rank is a mere trifle.  The only reason it is seen a somewhat "meaningless" is because people at places like this forum seem to want it that way.

On the contrary, CAP rank needs to have meaning...in CAP.  A refelection of where one is in the program.  Just like ribbons.  I can easily tell a newby to CAP, even if its a Capt or Major, based on which ribbons do not appear. 

Some out there seem to think ribbon wear is also a trifle, however, I submit that (unlike the military) CAP ribbons speak volumes about what a person has done since they are issued as a graduation to various levels.

Wow, Joe.  I'm not gonna begrudge a man his opinion, but when I read this, I'm left wondering....

"How many GS-08+ types on DoD installations throughout the world are living with a complex because their training, experience, and lack of 'grade' representation goes unnoticed.  Shoot, the GS-12 base fire chiefs must be seething in emotional pain over the matter."

I'd love to know how they feel about not getting to be saluted, stood up for, wear their civilian-type medals....and I sure would like to know the telephone number of the crisis intervention line they call when they feel inadequate next to the visiting CAP Major on base, with his 10 rows of ribbons, service cap, and uber-compliance with all things DoD.

Might get a base commander's permission to pass the number on to a few senior members I know.

[RiverAux]

The point is that the CAP promotion form has checkboxes for a reason.  If he is a pilot, check the pilot box and the box for the appropriate rank.  You don't need to write a memo saying he is a pilot and then attaching a copy of his license.  Yes, you need to keep that stuff in his personnel file at the squadron, but there is no need to send proof up the line.  Same with former military coming in or anything else.  It is the squadron commander's job to make sure all that stuff is in line. 

[riffraff]

CAP is working hard to streamline our processes - most promotions and speciality track advancements are handled on e-services with minimal paperwork.  The only level that really knows how a person is performing and particiapting is the squadron - with the Squadron Commander making the decision if the performance and participation are adequate. 

The only cases where HHQs need to be vigilent and require justification are those "good old boy" promotions done under the Special Appointments/Promotions section for "Exceptional Qualifications (waivers).   

The criteria for the rest of the promotions is very clear cut.  Failure to promotion someone who qualifies should be the exception to the rule and require specific justification.

Which nicely sums up my point. The squadron is where participation is measured and should be where promotion is held up. If our hypothetical major is only there for the bling and not participating the Sqdn CC shouldn't even fill out the Form 2.

However, if the Sqdn CC feels participation is acceptable has reviewed the DD-214, there's really no reason for anyone further up to reject the paperwork. It's very doubtful that someone at Group/Wing has more insight into squadron-level participation than  the squadron CC. You really need to wonder if there's some type of bias at play? Has anyone ever held up a CFI promotion to instant Captain?

Personally, between a promotion for a former military officer and a CFI with no military background, I'd be more inclined to take a closer look at the CFI. At least the military officer has completed formal training commensurate with the grade being requested. The CFI has an FAA ticket to teach -- hardly the same backgrounds.

[RiverAux]

There is always the possibility (often a strong one) that the person up the chain of command doesn't understand the rules in the first place and doesn't realize that they are denying a promotion that should in fact be granted. 

[Major Carrales]

The point is that the CAP promotion form has checkboxes for a reason.  If he is a pilot, check the pilot box and the box for the appropriate rank.  You don't need to write a memo saying he is a pilot and then attaching a copy of his license.  Yes, you need to keep that stuff in his personnel file at the squadron, but there is no need to send proof up the line.  Same with former military coming in or anything else.  It is the squadron commander's job to make sure all that stuff is in line. 

There is always the possibility (often a strong one) that the person up the chain of command doesn't understand the rules in the first place and doesn't realize that they are denying a promotion that should in fact be granted.

Well, since you put it like that.  Maybe you won't mind talking to my Group and Wing commander, since they are the ones demanding it be done that way.  Since they are both former USAF field grade officers I  imagine they will find your comments...fascinating.

[RiverAux]

Well, if they're wanting the additional documentation there isn't much that can be done about it as it is within their authority to ask for it.  I think it is a waste of everybody's time to do so and isn't required by regulation. 

I certainly wouldn't start sending up additional documentation, memos, etc. on my own volition. 

[Major Carrales]

I'd love to know how they feel about not getting to be saluted, stood up for, wear their civilian-type medals....and I sure would like to know the telephone number of the crisis intervention line they call when they feel inadequate next to the visiting CAP Major on base, with his 10 rows of ribbons, service cap, and uber-compliance with all things DoD.

I should think this is a moot point since a USAF Officer and a CAP Officer operate in different universes.

I believe that prior service and exceptional qualifications get you what they get in CAP.  The USAF is beyond the scope of our control and their opinions on the matter are ancillary when compared to the operational effectiveness of CAP to do what it does with what it has.  Which is quite alot.

If the Marine Major is not getting the becessary promotion, then someone needs to sit down with the Chain and see what transpires in that situation.  Posting it on a forum like this will have little effect on the outcome via the chain of command and old drift off into a conversation on service caps and salutes.

[Major Carrales]

Well, if they're wanting the additional documentation there isn't much that can be done about it as it is within their authority to ask for it.  I think it is a waste of everybody's time to do so and isn't required by regulation. 

I certainly wouldn't start sending up additional documentation, memos, etc. on my own volition. 

Agreed, let us disarm this debate and speak on it no further.

[Hawk200]

If our hypothetical major is only there for the bling and not participating the Sqdn CC shouldn't even fill out the Form 2.

I don't know many retired military personnel that are just there for the bling. They do it so they can continue serving. That very statement is insulting to them.

[Major Carrales]

If our hypothetical major is only there for the bling and not participating the Sqdn CC shouldn't even fill out the Form 2.

I don't know many retired military personnel that are just there for the bling. They do it so they can continue serving. That very statement is insulting to them.

Hawk you are correct, it has been my experience that most prior service CAP Officers that come to our squadron are looking to continue serving in CAP.  As pilots their motto is "Fly for fun, fly with a Purpose."

[riffraff]

If our hypothetical major is only there for the bling and not participating the Sqdn CC shouldn't even fill out the Form 2.

I don't know many retired military personnel that are just there for the bling. They do it so they can continue serving. That very statement is insulting to them.

I'd prefer to determine for myself what I find insulting, thanks   :angel:

Granted the overwhelming majority of former military are there for the exact reasons mentioned -- to continue serving. Unfortunately overwhelming majority does not include all. I've had the unfortunate experience to see at least two instances of bling-fever from former military members.

Also, please note that I referenced a hypothetical major and not the retired USMC major referenced at the beginning of this thread.

[Major Carrales]

OK, lads...let's not go down this road.  I can say with conviction that Hawk is prior service and your words may have hit close to home.  Let us just leave it at what it is and move on.

[Eclipse]

To bring us back to the actual topic, an off-handed conversation regarding promotions in general revealed to me that, at least my region, is now formally boarding all Lt. Cols, >and< all professional / special / prior military appointments (i.e. cfi=capt, etc.).

From what I understand, the idea is to try and lesson the number of walk-ins who get all spun up, receive advanced grade and then do not participate.

I know in the past year or so, there has been a lot of talk about demoting professional appointments who do not serve in the role for which they received the grade.

As this is happening at the region level, my assumption is that this is not exclusive to my region, but likeky happening all over.

[RiverAux]

Haven't heard about any such thing.

Now, it would be interesting to learn about what exactlly these boards are expecting a CFI off the street to know to be "worthy" of the special appointment. 

[ZigZag911]

The promotion reg specifies that those receiving mission related or professional appointment promotions are to be serving in a post in which the individual's skill is contributed to CAP.

"WIWAGC" documentation was required justifying the promotion.
This was partly for quality control, partly because some of these matters are interpretative (e.g., a case I had once where a promotion was sought for a British-trained nurse in which we could not establish licensure, which is required by the regs....this person had never practiced nursing in the US).

There were also many instances in which the new member did not want to contribute their skill...this was most common with teachers who had no desire to serve as aerospace education officers. In this instance the Group took the heat off the squadron CC, who, after all, had to deal with these people on a weekly basis! We could be the 'bad guy bureaucrats' enforcing the unreasonable rules!

Perhaps the USMC major has been unwilling, or unable, to accept a staff position in the unit, which would be a valid reason not to promote him in CAP. It is not a question of lack of respect for his military service, but rather an issue of whether or not he is actively contributing that wealth of experience to CAP.

[riffraff]

It would be very interesting if someone challenged such a process. Professional appointments I can somewhat understand. A lawyer or doctor who comes in but doesn't contribute in that capacity is certainly open to debate. It would be similar to a doctor or lawyer entering the military and then expecting to carry their initial grade into aviation and/or naval line officer position.

The CFI would be tough since CAP regs clearly stipulate if you have this rating, you move into this grade. Also, the CFI falls into Mission Related Skill, not Special Appointment, so even less room to decline such a promotion.

The only caveat is the line in CAPR 35-5 which stipulates promotions are neither mandatory nor automatic. I would guess subject to interpretation but spring loaded to approve unless a valid reason exists not to promote.

Military officers would be even more difficult since their grades typically carry training levels in excess of what CAP requires for similar grades -- i.e. most field grade officers have compeleted training at the War College level.

I don't believe a Region/Wing can supercede CAP Regs in going either more strict or more lax. An extreme example would be a military unit implementing policy of only allowing their personnel 15 days annual leave instead of 30 days as given by the DoD.

"We have too many Majors" would likely not be sufficient reason to prevent a participating military major from attaining that grade. I didn't read anything stating the person needed to be performing at the level commensurate with the rank in order to get the promotion. It would fly in the face of existing practice whereby squadrons are populated with O-4s and O-5s who have never held command and participate at the Mission Pilot level.

[ZigZag911]

CAPR 35-5, Section C, Paragraph 15 --  Regular and Reserve Officers of the Armed Forces:  "...Such promotions are neither automatic or mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 5."

[riffraff]

To bring us back to the actual topic, an off-handed conversation regarding promotions in general revealed to me that, at least my region, is now formally boarding all Lt. Cols, >and< all professional / special / prior military appointments (i.e. cfi=capt, etc.).

From what I understand, the idea is to try and lesson the number of walk-ins who get all spun up, receive advanced grade and then do not participate.

I know in the past year or so, there has been a lot of talk about demoting professional appointments who do not serve in the role for which they received the grade.

As this is happening at the region level, my assumption is that this is not exclusive to my region, but likeky happening all over.

Certainly a valid concept but at what point are you boarding? Something similar to the 90-day probationary policies used by large corporations? I can attest to many (corporate) folks on their best behavior for the first few months and then a rapid decline once they're past the 90-day point.

CAP does have a mechanism for dealing with non-performance. Demotion. I might suggest the better option might be to grant the requested grade and reduce later, if necessary. It's far easier to document non-performance than it is to guesstimate future performance via short-term performance.

Other than squadron member(s) that might sit on the board, what real information would a regional board possess for someone serving at the squadron level?

IMO an overcomplication of existing process and a perception that there is a lack of faith in the decision/assessment abilities of the Squadron CC.

[riffraff]

CAPR 35-5, Section C, Paragraph 15 --  Regular and Reserve Officers of the Armed Forces:  "...Such promotions are neither automatic or mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 5."

Would you support a decision that went something like this??:
I'm the Wing CC and I think we have too many O-4s and O-5s. Let's not promote any more.

I would if the current O-4's and O-5's were contributing at that level. However, I suspect this probably isn't always the case.

Do you really take a retired O-6 and tell him he's now a 1LT (assuming not a CFI but does have a Commerical ticket) because there are too many majors and LTCs around?

What about transfers into a squadron. Say I'm an O-5 (former military) with a few years in CAP. I want to transfer to your Wing to one of the local squadrons. Am I demoted because the Wing CC feels there are too many LTCs? What would the basis be?

Again, all hypothetical examples and all lead back to the disconnect between rank and position discussed in other threads. Sorry for the drift

[RiverAux]

Since CAP doesn't have any sort of system to really evaluate qualitative aspects of individual senior member's performance any decision to try to interject them into the promotion system (either for regular members promoting up or for special appointments) can only ensure that you will make a bunch of people mad in return for no real benefit to CAP. 

[arajca]

As for advanced promotions for military personnel, I would look at participating as serving in a staff role. If you have retired Col who is willing to come in and serve as your ae officer, why not promote him to Lt Col? Now, if that same Col wants to join and just show up when he feels like it and not otherwise help the organization, why promote him? I have had experience with both types. Unfortunetely, too many commanders feel they have to submit military personnel for advanced grade, regardless of their participation in the unit.

[isuhawkeye]

We have had this problem in Iowa.  I would point you to the field grade officer transition program.  Very Very controversial, but so far very affective here

[RiverAux]

Say you do get that former Lt. Col., nothing he is likely to do in his first few years is likely to be "appropriate" to his former rank whether he is serving as a squadron staff officer or just attending meetings and diligently working on his ES or pilot qualifications.  Therefore, it makes no sense to expect him to do more than other members to get promoted.

Keep in mind that this is under our current system.

If you want people to actually be peforming specific duties to get the special appointments, then that needs to be in the national regulations.  Otherwise you're just going to end up with a good old boy system that keeps new members down for no legitimate reason. 

[mikeylikey]

We have had this problem in Iowa.  I would point you to the field grade officer transition program.  Very Very controversial, but so far very affective here

What is that?

[MIKE]

^ Search feature.

[isuhawkeye]

Thanks Mike, your such a good moderator

[Major Carrales]

Y'all could have at least described it before flipantly sending someone to a search feature.  Or at least annotated a bit.

C'mon, what good are you guys if you can't answer the question.

[arajca]

Say you do get that former Lt. Col., nothing he is likely to do in his first few years is likely to be "appropriate" to his former rank whether he is serving as a squadron staff officer or just attending meetings and diligently working on his ES or pilot qualifications.  Therefore, it makes no sense to expect him to do more than other members to get promoted.

Keep in mind that this is under our current system.

If you want people to actually be peforming specific duties to get the special appointments, then that needs to be in the national regulations.  Otherwise you're just going to end up with a good old boy system that keeps new members down for no legitimate reason. 

I presume you were referring to my post. I did not say, nor did I intend to imply, that the Lt Col needs to serve in a Lt Col level role. Just that they need to be actively particpating in the unit and not padding a resume (yes, it happens). Serving in a staff position (and actually performing the functions) counts as actively participating.

[mikeylikey]

^ Search feature.

Thanks Mike, your such a good moderator

Thanks guys!  I did search, there are 2 threads, one has 14 pages of posts, the other 12.  The letters that were linked from the threads were taken down from the site hosting them. 

A simple 1 sentence reply was all that was needed.  something like "in Iowa we transition all of our Lt Col's back to Major....blah blah blah".

You guys were jerks.

[MIKE]

A simple 1 sentence reply was all that was needed.  something like "in Iowa we transition all of our Lt Col's back to Major....blah blah blah".

You guys were jerks.

That's how thread drifts start... IIRC all FGOs were transfered out of squadrons and moved to wing.

[riffraff]

That's how thread drifts start... IIRC all FGOs were transfered out of squadrons and moved to wing.

Heck if we did that here there'd be nobody left at the squadrons except the 1LT CC's and a few SMWOGs!

[mikeylikey]

A simple 1 sentence reply was all that was needed.  something like "in Iowa we transition all of our Lt Col's back to Major....blah blah blah".

You guys were jerks.

That's how thread drifts start... IIRC all FGOs were transfered out of squadrons and moved to wing.

Thank you.  You are not a jerk!   

[isuhawkeye]

^^ As I said, very controversial.  If you want specifics about the transition I will happily discuses them individually.  It has been hashed out many many times, and I really don't feel like going over it again. 

And Ive been called much worse than a jerk before. 

Mabye I wont add input to these threads

[Major Carrales]

Uh?  What's going on here?

This is one that likely need to be locked.  Names have been called.

[ZigZag911]

Would you support a decision that went something like this??:
I'm the Wing CC and I think we have too many O-4s and O-5s. Let's not promote any more.

Do you really take a retired O-6 and tell him he's now a 1LT (assuming not a CFI but does have a Commerical ticket) because there are too many majors and LTCs around?

Absolutely not! The first scenario would be an arbitrary decision, the second is disrespectful.

All I'm saying is that all out of the ordinary appointees (former military, mission related and professional) need to show a commitment to CAP in their first months in the program, and particularly that they will contribute their uniques capabilities and experience.

Until and unless that happens (and I'm talking in the firs 90-120 days of membership, not looking for years before promoting!) new personnel remain SMWOG.