Why do we need AF Uniforms?

[ddelaney103]

Interesting and certainly logical.

But, your post is 986 words long and contains not a single mention of cadets or the cadet program --  the single program that involves over 50% of our membership.

Would taking cadets into account alter your thoughts in any way?

Respectfully,

Ned Lee
DCP, PCR

I always believe the "conventional wisdom" has been to keep Cadets in AF uniforms, at least until 18.

The AF has given blanket permission to Cadets, regardless of weight to wear it - so we have none of the two classes problem the SM's have.

Further, there are fewer problems with Cadet wannabe's, since that's redundant.  Cadets are working on becoming something - we hope they have big dreams.  Also, the uniform is a recruiting tool.

[mikeylikey]

I am profoundly uncomfortable by discussions of wearing / utilizing / employing additional USAF gear, uniform elements, behaviors, etc. They *earned* the right to those things. Let's us build, designate, invest and value our own unique gear, etc.

Don't forget CAP members earned them as well.  For the past 60 years CAP has been earning the privilege to wear the AF uniform. 

What makes you so uncomfortable??  I never understood that position.  If you don't want to wear AF style, because you are not comfortable doing so, DON'T then!

[Dragoon]

I think your last sentence highlights one of the issues he's addressing.  If uniforms are optional, then they aren't uniforms. They become costumes.

I think it's not that he's uncomfortable with wearing it.  He's uncomfortable with all the emphasis on it when it will never be the true CAP uniform - since half our members aren't allowed to be in it.

He's going for uniformity - the team over the individual.  I get that.  He's going for what CAP actually is - civilians serving their country, over what some wish  it were - military officers serving their country.

Of course, besides forgetting cadets, he's also forgotten that some of us can get USAF stuff cheap or free.  Admittedly, that doesn't help half our members, but that little fact IS going to get drug into any conversation.

[foriley]

Yup.

Rather than earning the right to wear the USAF uniform I'd rather earn the right to wear the CAP uniform. And when wearing it be wearing the same uniform as you and the rest of gang.

My discomfort isn't with USAF or the USAF uniform per se, well aside from safety issues, but it's with wearing *their* uniform.

I like CAP. I think what I do has value. I don't like wearing someone else's uniform to demonstrate my esprit de corp. They earned their uniform. I'd like to earn mine rather than the right to wear theirs.

Ugh... I'm sounding shrill. I'll stop.

Yes, I didn't mention Cadets. It was intentional. They should wear the USAF uniform, except on ES missions and airport ops functions where those mitigate safety.

--F

[Hawk200]

2.   The USAF ABU/BDU and flightsuit are poorly suited to CAP's ES mission.
a.   Ground, flight line and air crews are ridiculously hard to see when wearing camouflage or camo colors and although that's the purpose of camo it's so antithetical to ES that the mind boggles;
i.   ES relies in part on seeing and being seen. Mitigating that disadvantages CAP, the mission, our partners and anybody trying to see us, like a person in need of ES or a tactical manager trying to identify assets;
ii.   The USAF uniforms do not allow for customary SAR markings. Reflective tape, large letters declaring affiliation and/or specialty, high-visibility devices, etc are denied CAP.
b.   SAR customary insignia / decorations are not authorized which sets CAP apart and is off-putting to other professional SAR responders. (At least in this writer's experiences with local sheriffs and other SAR posses. I'm sure others can share contrary histories.);
c.   Rather than appearing to civilians and disaster victims as ES we appear as military or worse para-military wannabes.
d.   Absent wearing additional and heretofore unauthorized USAF uniform items it is difficult to carry necessary radios, first-aid and/or survival equipment, signaling devices, target detection devices, etc.

This argument is actually rather ironic. When the Air Force got BDU's, many people questioned the wisdom of wearing camoflage in an environment where it wouldn't hide. Camo stands out far more on a flightline than it does in the woods.

As for being wannabe's, I would disagree. During earthquake releife in California, people would walk up to us, wanting to shake our hands or hug us. Apparently, they didn't consider us wannabe's. Now that I think about it, I haven't heard of anyone not in CAP call us wannabe's. Some active duty may joke about the cadets "playing soldier", but most of them change their mind once they are told what the program entails.

3.   Better alternatives exist, are equally cost effective / costly, and customary to CAP's three missions.
a.   We could replace the USAF flightsuit with a high-visibility, Nomex flightsuit having reflective tape and reflective patches, similar pockets, etc.
b.   The BDU might be more effectively replaced with 5.11 or similar tactical or BDU-style pants with subdued reflective accents, high-visibility shirt, optional gloves and headgear in high-visibility colors and with reflective tape, etc. (There are excellent "subdued" reflective materials, often seen in runners' clothing, to accent.)
c.   The CAP corporate uniform with white shirt and either the blue or gray pants (pick one, but only one) is a great alternative to the USAF blues. I'd even go so far as to say that I'd prefer black over gray, and blue over black. (The black would be a bit... ugh... Naval. And with the TPU coat, which I really hate, in black too we'd be welcome on a ship's bridge anywhere.)

A reflective flightsuit is a non-issue. It doesn't need to be. Noone looks for our pilots in the woods. The Nomex is a safety measure (which some argue is unnecessary), the color isn't relevant. As for cost, it's far cheaper to obtain a sage green flightsuit than it is any other color.

As for the TPU, most of the items are available in an AAFES military clothing. You're still buying Air Force pieces.

4.   The USAF ABU/BDU and flightsuit compromise safety.
a.   CAP flightline crew can be difficult for pilots and others to see;
b.   CAP members are just generally hard to see. It puts members at risk when near traffic or anywhere that visual identification is important;
c.   The flightsuit is hard to see by potential rescuers of aircrews downed or landing off-airport. The ABU/BDU is hard to see by potential rescuers of lost, injured or other CAP assets in the field.

If it's that hard to see someone in an orange vest, someone doesn't belong in the area. It is mandatory on the flightline, and in the field. If you can't see those crews, they're doing something wrong.

Second, it's rare that we are looking for our own aircrews in a downed situation. And the people you are looking for are probably wearing civvies.

As far the teams, no-one should be alone anyway. Ever. Injured "assets" probably wouldn't be in the field long, if at all.

5.There is a long and appropriate tradition of pride in the USAF uniform. CAP should invest in and build its own such traditions, and wear its own distinctive uniform with pride.

Our tradition is for people to wear a military uniform, with our own distinct insignia. Why change it after 65 years?

a.   I believe that too many proponents of the USAF uniform are "playing Air Force". That simply isn't CAP. We're not USAF. We're non-military, non-combatant, volunteers in a charitable organization with profoundly different missions than USAF. I am profoundly uncomfortable by discussions of wearing / utilizing / employing additional USAF gear, uniform elements, behaviors, etc. They *earned* the right to those things. Let's us build, designate, invest and value our own unique gear, etc. (I've got a similar rant on rank... betcha couldn't guess);

I spent ten years active duty Air Force. Am I no longer acceptable because I don't wear it now? Has my right to wear an Air Force uniform expired?

Unique gear comes with a high cost. There is military gear available that suits the needs, and sometimes it's pretty inexpensive. No reason to design our own patterns for anything.

b.Personally, I am far prouder of my salute to a USAF or other service member when I'm wearing a CAP "corporate" uniform than when I'm wearing a variant of his/her uniform. I feel it honors them, me and CAP more specifically and more deeply;

If rendering a salute in a certain uniform gives you more pride than in others, I'd question the priority.

c.   CAP could stand distinct and bring more attention to itself by designating and employing its own, separate uniform;
d.   The CAP accents to coat, decorations, etc could borrow accenting USAF colors as an homage and recognition of our USAF affiliation.

We have our own accents now. And this issue has really only exploded since a corporate service uniform was created. It was apparently an issue before, but it seems to be more of one now.

And if you want something completely unique, borrowing AF heritage doesn't meet that purpose.

[Hawk200]

My discomfort isn't with USAF or the USAF uniform per se, well aside from safety issues, but it's with wearing *their* uniform.

We've been associated with the AF since they became a separate branch. We're a part of their heritage as much as they are part of ours.

I like CAP. I think what I do has value. I don't like wearing someone else's uniform to demonstrate my esprit de corp. They earned their uniform. I'd like to earn mine rather than the right to wear theirs.

Seems like a "mine and theirs" policy. Instead of ours. We are a part of a team.

Yes, I didn't mention Cadets. It was intentional. They should wear the USAF uniform, except on ES missions and airport ops functions where those mitigate safety.

Any uniformity argument is self defeating when you mention keeping cadets in USAF uniforms. Uniformity includes everybody.

[MIKE]

This discussion is in the wrong thread.  Split and merged.

[Falshrmjgr]

EXCUSE ME?

I HAVE served, have "fought" in actual combat, and am STILL "fit to fight". However I have other obligations and priorities, and desires, that preclude me from re-joining our Armed Forces. So now I am supposed to NOT join CAP because I could otherwise, based on fitness alone, be in the Armed Forces?

Man I have heard some doozies, but that takes the cake.

Nodnod...  I confess to a bit of oversimplification there, and I had no intention of disparaging our dual-hatted members.   My point was to try and simplify the scenario and show where there is a logical disconnect.

CAP is a valuable national asset and a force multiplier and should be treated as such.  Not merely tolerated.  CAP has a long and distinguished history of service to this nation, and continues to do so.  While we may not (or in some cases no longer) be subject to the UCMJ, and be "military" as such, we are not just civilians either.  And portraying CAP as such is demeaning.  How many CAP members have died or been injured in the line of duty over the years fulfilling their mission in order to save the lives of others?  How many millions of man-hours and millions of dollars have been donated by our members over the years?  Military? maybe not de jure, but de facto.  Treating our members as a bunch of ne'er do wells who "just want to play Air Force" is disrespectful and demeaning.

Nothing is required to distinguish CAP members from "Real Military" other than distinctive insignia.  Requiring more is an act of "I'm better than you, and you don't deserve it."

Oh yeah, and just for the record, after I made it through SFAS, made E5, and served on the DMZ in Korea, I was an ROTC DMG, RA Infantry Officer in the 82d Airborne.  My EIB and Jump Wings didn't come out of a box of Cracker Jacks either. 

[RiverAux]

But adopting their officer titles and insignia that even the thousands of paid USAF civlians don't get is where I think the rub lies.

We did not "adopt" AF rank and titles.  CAP had those ranks and titles from the very beginning of the organization.  The Army adopted CAP, along with those ranks, titles, and uniforms and we've continued to use them.  They knew they were getting old, oftentimes overweight, civilians wearing Army-style uniforms, with Army ranks, unit nomenclature, etc. from the beginning.  The Army (and now the AF) didn't give us those things -- we had them before joining with them. 

[JayT]

But adopting their officer titles and insignia that even the thousands of paid USAF civlians don't get is where I think the rub lies.

We did not "adopt" AF rank and titles.  CAP had those ranks and titles from the very beginning of the organization.  The Army adopted CAP, along with those ranks, titles, and uniforms and we've continued to use them.  They knew they were getting old, oftentimes overweight, civilians wearing Army-style uniforms, with Army ranks, unit nomenclature, etc. from the beginning.  The Army (and now the AF) didn't give us those things -- we had them before joining with them. 

Didn't CAP start off with position based titles?

[BillB]

CAP had position titles worn on the uniform such as Squadron Commander, Flight Commander etc. However, the position titles had nothing to do with member grades. I note one error in the posts above. The War Department (Army Air Corp) in 1942 authorized CAP wear army style uniforms with distintive insignia. Prior to that CAP wore uniforms, but they were authorized by the Office Civilian Defense. CAP wore Army grade insignia from PFC to Major, later LtCol and Col were authorized. CAP didn't ask the War Department for authority to wear the grade insignia, it was the War Departments idea.

[RiverAux]

CAP members from day one were using military ranks and titles. 

[mikeylikey]

The War Department (Army Air Corp) in 1942 authorized CAP wear army style uniforms with distinctive insignia.

Actually it's "US Army Air Forces".  A common mistake.  During the war, the Army (most likely those already envisioning a separate AF service) pushed everyone to use "Air Corps".  However those assigned to the aviation branch in the Army were in fact members of the Army Air Forces.  ~Army Officers Guide 1942, and Rank, Insignia of the services-War Dept 1942.

[Dragoon]

CAP members from day one were using military ranks and titles. 

Not according to Colonel Leonard A. Blascovich, the National Historian.  He gave a brief to the NB a few years back about this very subject.

According to him, CAP started with Position Designators only ("Squadron Commander", "Squadron XO", etc.).  These were worn on the uniform as patches.

Rank came later, as a way to get better cooperation from local military bases (they'd pay more attention to a Captain than to a "Squadron Commander."

Of course, in those early days, rank was tied to position.  The only Captain in the squadron was the commander.  Presumably, if he didn't move up to higher HQ after command, he had to give up the railroad tracks.

[Dragoon]

CAP is a valuable national asset and a force multiplier and should be treated as such.  Not merely tolerated.  CAP has a long and distinguished history of service to this nation, and continues to do so.  While we may not (or in some cases no longer) be subject to the UCMJ, and be "military" as such, we are not just civilians either.  And portraying CAP as such is demeaning.  How many CAP members have died or been injured in the line of duty over the years fulfilling their mission in order to save the lives of others?  How many millions of man-hours and millions of dollars have been donated by our members over the years?  Military? maybe not de jure, but de facto.  Treating our members as a bunch of ne'er do wells who "just want to play Air Force" is disrespectful and demeaning.

A slightly different vew. 

We are part of USAF, but in fact, all trappings aside, we are civilians (at least we are when doing CAP stuff - I wear green the rest of the week).

Many fewer CAPer's have died "in the line of duty" than in most major fire departments,   In fact, most CAP casualties I know of died on non-misson flights.   Safety stuff.

Dead is still dead, but let's not overplay this card.  USAF civlians have died in the line of duty as well (sometimes in combat zones), but they don't rate officer insignia and titles.  Seems to work okay for them.  In fact, I can't imagine it working any other way.

The issue shouldn't be whether we should be respected for our role  (we should) , but whether our role should be confused with the uniformed USAF (perhaps not).

I think our striving to be mistaken for warriors works AGAINST us getting closer to USAF.

We should be proud of who we are, not who we'd like to be.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I also think that an 18-20 year old cadet in good shape should serve his country on active duty before popping over to the CAP officer side.  That is the whole idea of "...prepare to be of service" in the Cadet Oath.

So I should pack in my CAP uniform and take my business (and membership dues) elsewhere?

Frankly, yes.  Active service would help both you and your country.

[mikeylikey]

CAP members from day one were using military ranks and titles. 

Not according to Colonel Leonard A. Blascovich, the National Historian.  He gave a brief to the NB a few years back about this very subject.

According to him, CAP started with Position Designators only ("Squadron Commander", "Squadron XO", etc.).  These were worn on the uniform as patches.

Rank came later, as a way to get better cooperation from local military bases (they'd pay more attention to a Captain than to a "Squadron Commander."

Of course, in those early days, rank was tied to position.  The only Captain in the squadron was the commander.  Presumably, if he didn't move up to higher HQ after command, he had to give up the railroad tracks.

I don't know if that is entirely correct.  I will do some research and return, but I think they always had some type of rank identifier from the very begining.

[JayT]

I also think that an 18-20 year old cadet in good shape should serve his country on active duty before popping over to the CAP officer side.  That is the whole idea of "...prepare to be of service" in the Cadet Oath.

So I should pack in my CAP uniform and take my business (and membership dues) elsewhere?

Frankly, yes.  Active service would help both you and your country.

Thanks for the BS free answer.

[Hawk200]

CAP members from day one were using military ranks and titles. 

Not according to Colonel Leonard A. Blascovich, the National Historian.  He gave a brief to the NB a few years back about this very subject.

According to him, CAP started with Position Designators only ("Squadron Commander", "Squadron XO", etc.).  These were worn on the uniform as patches.

Rank came later, as a way to get better cooperation from local military bases (they'd pay more attention to a Captain than to a "Squadron Commander."

Of course, in those early days, rank was tied to position.  The only Captain in the squadron was the commander.  Presumably, if he didn't move up to higher HQ after command, he had to give up the railroad tracks.

I don't know if that is entirely correct.  I will do some research and return, but I think they always had some type of rank identifier from the very begining.

Actually, he's right. There was no rank in the very beginning. Got an old copy of the 1941 CAP manual, there's no rank that I've seen.

And I've met Col Blascovich. He's pretty precise on his research. You can probably bank on anything he says.

[RiverAux]

I have seen many local newspaper articles printed in very early 1942 referring to members by military rank and there are plenty of other sources indicating that when the coastal patrols started in early 1942 people had been given ranks.  Sorry, but our historian is wrong if he believes we did not use ranks while serving as part of OCD.  Pick almost any CAP Historical Monograph and you'll find many rank references prior to Army control.