Why do we need AF Uniforms?

[RiverAux]

When you get right down to it, the Air Force doesn't really NEED uniforms for a lot of its tasks either, especially in CONUS.  That Airman doing computer data entry at Whiteman AFB doesn't need woodland camo BDUs any more than I do to do a ground SAR, but yet he is wearing them. 

Its a matter primarily of tradition and that should be good enough for us just like it is for them. 

[SAR-EMT1]

We are still an auxiliary service of the USAF, at least last I checked.

'nuff said.

Not quite...

So we are sometimes acting as an auxiliary during AFAMs.  Ok, 99% of the time we are not.  And what effect does this have on what uniforms we should be wearing??

Which is why I said >an<, not >the<.

But we are THE, no other group serves as AN auxiliary to the Air Force. We ARE the Air Force Auxiliary. Need proof, just look at your ID Cards.

And for crying out loud...
The CAP is component of the Air Force, folks from the military have said so for years.
Its called the Total Force Concept. - AD, Res, Guard, Auxiliary, Civilian, Contractor
Every branch of the military uses it. If you go into an AFROTC class they tell you CAP is part of the Air Force, being the AF Aux. They dont say its the 'sometimes Aux'
I also know for a fact that NROTC refers to it the same way, not sure about Army ROTC. - Mikeylikey?

The preceding is my primary justification for wearing the USAF uniform. My secondary justification is our cadet program.
The definition of "cadet' is: one in training for a [military] career

[Eclipse]

^ You won't get any argument from me on the sentiment, but unfortunately the legal reality is that this is not the case.

[SAR-EMT1]

Did not mean to yell or offend.  However the lawyers are ignoring the reality of the situation. 

[riffraff]

When you get right down to it, the Air Force doesn't really NEED uniforms for a lot of its tasks either, especially in CONUS.  That Airman doing computer data entry at Whiteman AFB doesn't need woodland camo BDUs any more than I do to do a ground SAR, but yet he is wearing them. 

Its a matter primarily of tradition and that should be good enough for us just like it is for them. 

My point wasn't that CAP doesn't need uniforms. My point is that CAP does not need USAF uniforms.

For the traditionalists, the closest CAP has been to traditional uniforms was the berry-board era. When CAP oversight moved from the Office of Civilian Defense (CAP's true roots) to the US Army in 1943, CAP wore Army uniforms with red shoulderboards. I don't see people clamoring for a return to red/burgundy boards though -- being traditionally correct and all.

The original question was why do we need Air Force uniforms, not why do we need (any) uniforms. IMO the answer still remains that CAP doesn't need USAF uniforms. Please explain how CAP wearing the blue/white aviator combo, BBDU, or blue bag makes CAP less effective, less professional, or any less THE Auxiliary of the USAF? Personally, if we went with these three we would appear more uniform because everyone can wear them.

[RiverAux]

Well, the reverse of that question is just as legitimate:  Why do we need "civilian" uniforms? 

There is a simple solution to the only answer to that question -- drop the fat/fuzzies.

[ddelaney103]

Well, the reverse of that question is just as legitimate:  Why do we need "civilian" uniforms? 

There is a simple solution to the only answer to that question -- drop the fat/fuzzies.

How many people would we lose?  How many critical skillsets?

You seem to forget that the mission on CAP is not "look really good in AF uniforms."  We're here to leverage civilian volunteers to assist the AF.  They're not meant to be Parade Deck airmen.

[RiverAux]

I didn't say it wouldn't sting a big, just that it was the simple, and obvious solution.  Keep in mind that any move away from the AF uniform will also lose some number of folks.  If for no other reason in that they will see it as a move by the AF to distance themselves from CAP. 

[ddelaney103]

I didn't say it wouldn't sting a big, just that it was the simple, and obvious solution.  Keep in mind that any move away from the AF uniform will also lose some number of folks.  If for no other reason in that they will see it as a move by the AF to distance themselves from CAP. 

Yes, but those are "jumps" as opposed to "pushes."  If we decide on uniforms, is should be because it adds to the mission, not because it meets some member's deep seated need to wear sage zippered PJ's.

[RiverAux]

Again comes the presumption that anyone who actually wants to wear the military uniform is somehow a deeply flawed individual only in it for the bling. 

[ddelaney103]

Again comes the presumption that anyone who actually wants to wear the military uniform is somehow a deeply flawed individual only in it for the bling. 

No it means if we went "all AF," we would be forcing people out.  If we went "all corp," no one would be forced out - if they left, it would be because they wanted to.

[RiverAux]

And if things stayed more or less the way they are we wouldn't lose anybody either.  So why do it?

[ddelaney103]

And if things stayed more or less the way they are we wouldn't lose anybody either.  So why do it?

Because, IMHO, it would be better for CAP is we had one suit - "One Team, One Fight, One Uniform" as I keep repeating.

The AF used to allow everyone to wear their suit, at least WIWAC.  Now they don't.  The only way to get everyone in one suit is to go corporate.

Hopefully, the new uniform proposal will allow us to get the two sides of our uniform "close enough for jazz."

[RiverAux]

Since CAP members can perform their actual duties equally well in any uniform, all we're talking about is a public relations issue.  I agree it would look better if we were all in the same uniform, but it wouldn't have any real impact on our ability to carry out the mission and really would only have a minor impact in terms of public relations.  Hardly a reason to ditch 60+ years of heritage. 

[ddelaney103]

Since CAP members can perform their actual duties equally well in any uniform, all we're talking about is a public relations issue.  I agree it would look better if we were all in the same uniform, but it wouldn't have any real impact on our ability to carry out the mission and really would only have a minor impact in terms of public relations.  Hardly a reason to ditch 60+ years of heritage. 

Unfortunately, most of that heritage was when we were allowed to use the AAF/USAF suit without restriction.  The original sub hunters didn't have to worry about height/weight.

If we could get a weight waiver and a medical exemption for those who couldn't shave, I'd say we move to the AF suits and be done with it.  But I don't see it happening.

One uniform is not just a PA matter, it's also an internal matter of branding.  We have the choice of two sets of uniforms, either one of which has some negative stereotypes attached to it.  People are viewed as either slacktards or wannabes depending on their uniform.

Is there a way to fix it, given that the AF is unlikely to change ht/wt?

[RiverAux]

The vast majority of people in the US will probably never see a live CAP member in a uniform so branding isn't really an issue.  A few AF types will see us and a few members of the local emergency response community will see us.  Since most of them also have multiple uniforms, seeing CAP members in multiple uniforms won't blow their minds. 

Most people today can't tell the difference between the uniforms of the various military services anyway and if the AF can't brand itself differently from the others services, the chances of us coming up with anything that will ever make a distinct impression on the public is slim. 

I agree that the old style "no rank insignia for fatties" system worked just fine and wouldn't hurt the AF a bit.  Since our BDUs, which is what those who see CAP are most likely to see us wearing (except for cadets in parades) don't have one single thing on them that links us with the AF, having the fatties in them won't hurt their reputation one bit. 

[Hawk200]

Aside from the above, the only way to get everyone in the same uniforms is to go corporate. It's the only common category for fit, fat, and fuzzies. One team, one uniform.

Since there are advocates for going corporate, how about just going corporate all the way? No more Air Force money, we go find "customers" for pay. We run our own operations with our own acquired funding. No more Congressional support either. And we move all CAP units and operations off miltary installations. Shut down the overseas units. No reason to even have the Air Force name associated with CAP any longer. Members will also pay for their own proficiency flights, and ground pounders will pay their own way to FEMA and any other certification courses.

Keep in mind, it's unreasonable to not wear an Air Force uniform, and still expect funding from them. Without any identification with Big Blue, there's no reason for it either.

Many people want that Air Force money, space on military installations, free courses, tax writeoffs, cheap flying and all those other things, but having a uniform chafes them. This puzzles me to no end. Seems similar to having a wife for certain benefits, but denying you know her in public.

How many people would we lose?  How many critical skillsets?

You seem to forget that the mission on CAP is not "look really good in AF uniforms."  We're here to leverage civilian volunteers to assist the AF.  They're not meant to be Parade Deck airmen.

It's not the mission of airmen to just "look good in uniforms". And doing away with AF uniforms just seems to be a way to lower the bar for everyone. In a way, it's a discrimination against those that do meet weight/grooming standards to wear blues. They have to go buy something new because someone else doesn't meet a certain standard. Either way, it's a standoff. Someone has to spend money.

Having military and corporate uniforms is not the issue it's being made out to be. We could stand to make them similar for uniformity purposes, and we don't need three different options. But distancing ourselves from the Air Force is a sure way to lose their support.

[ZigZag911]

The reason behind the maroon epaulets of the late 80s to mid 90s is no Urban Legend.....during that time a CAP National CC got the NB to promote him to Maj Gen over the objections of USAF....which responded by withdrawing permision for us to wear dark blue embroidered epaulets that resembled USAF officer epaulets in every way except "CAP" lettering.

[riffraff]

Aside from the above, the only way to get everyone in the same uniforms is to go corporate. It's the only common category for fit, fat, and fuzzies. One team, one uniform.

Since there are advocates for going corporate, how about just going corporate all the way? No more Air Force money, we go find "customers" for pay. We run our own operations with our own acquired funding. No more Congressional support either. And we move all CAP units and operations off miltary installations. Shut down the overseas units. No reason to even have the Air Force name associated with CAP any longer. Members will also pay for their own proficiency flights, and ground pounders will pay their own way to FEMA and any other certification courses.

Keep in mind, it's unreasonable to not wear an Air Force uniform, and still expect funding from them. Without any identification with Big Blue, there's no reason for it either.

Many people want that Air Force money, space on military installations, free courses, tax writeoffs, cheap flying and all those other things, but having a uniform chafes them. This puzzles me to no end. Seems similar to having a wife for certain benefits, but denying you know her in public.

How many people would we lose?  How many critical skillsets?

You seem to forget that the mission on CAP is not "look really good in AF uniforms."  We're here to leverage civilian volunteers to assist the AF.  They're not meant to be Parade Deck airmen.

It's not the mission of airmen to just "look good in uniforms". And doing away with AF uniforms just seems to be a way to lower the bar for everyone. In a way, it's a discrimination against those that do meet weight/grooming standards to wear blues. They have to go buy something new because someone else doesn't meet a certain standard. Either way, it's a standoff. Someone has to spend money.

Having military and corporate uniforms is not the issue it's being made out to be. We could stand to make them similar for uniformity purposes, and we don't need three different options. But distancing ourselves from the Air Force is a sure way to lose their support.

Well, I'd say we're already shopping for outside customers -- FEMA, DHS, Border Patrol, DEA. All of these were (IMO) likely driving factors for our recent 'rebranding'. Doesn't anyone else think it strange that everything bearing reference to Auxiliary of the USAF has been removed (aircraft, vans, command patch)? Seems to me that CAP -- presumably with a nod from USAF -- are setting the stage to preclude Posse Comitatus legal issues regarding our Auxiliary status in light of the increasing work we're now doing for other agencies. Just my opinion but that's how I see it. I wouldn't be surprised to see CAP shifted to Homeland Security at some future point -- much as the Coast Guard was. Last I checked, USCG didn't lose funding when they left DOT. I doubt CAP would lose funding if the same occurred to us. Again, my two cents worth.

Funding: Do you seriously think USAF would drop CAP funding because we went with uniforms unique to CAP? I hardly think so. Again, in my opinion, I think USAF would probably breath a sign of relief if we went to separate uniforms. The perceived 'poser' problem would be instantly gone and CAP members would be readily identifiable as CAP. Uniforms would be, well.... uniform.

I would offer this to those of the "ditch the fat and fuzzies" crowd: What will you think if you become one?  Just because you might be within height/weight now, how are you going to feel if you fall outside the standards when you're older?  I'm all for standards but my preference would be for standards that contribute to mission effectiveness. A USAF-uniform wearing guy/gal who doesn't participate is hardly worth keeping over a guy who contributes but has a beard or falls outside the height/weight standards.

[Hawk200]

Funding: Do you seriously think USAF would drop CAP funding because we went with uniforms unique to CAP? I hardly think so. Again, in my opinion, I think USAF would probably breath a sign of relief if we went to separate uniforms. The perceived 'poser' problem would be instantly gone and CAP members would be readily identifiable as CAP. Uniforms would be, well.... uniform.

Would they drop us just because of the uniforms? No, and it's foolish to think that such a single factor would be cause.

But it's a beginning. First, CAP tells the Air Force: "We don't want your clothes!".

What else will eventually go? Something will, it's a given. Then something else. CAP members already want the Air Force money with no accountability or control. It's obvious with people that always reply to Air Force standards with "We're not the Air Force!"

Dropping the AF uniforms just starts the downward slide.