Why do we need AF Uniforms?

[DrJbdm]

You never answered the question; Why are you so against the military or more specifically the Air Force uniforms? And please, don't say cost, I don't buy that reasoning.

 When you joined, did you know CAP is a Auxiliary to the United States Air Force? if you are not really into the military aspect then why did you join CAP? I'm asking an honest question here.

 You obviously care something about rank or else you wouldn't have worked a little to get promoted to Major, why do you use rank at all?

 Mark, what I'm getting at is that your posts seem to reflect a lack of desire to be a part of a military service, you are completely ready to dump the Air Force uniforms but a large part of me keeps thinking that cost can't be the only issue with this. I'm not criticising you Mark, I'm just making an observation based on the language you have used in your posts.

  As for being only the AF aux 1% of the time, I actually think that number is a bit higher, perhaps around 90% of the time. Most of the flying I do are AFAM missions, from flying CAP cadets and AFROTC cadets, to flying in SAREXs and in performing other AFAM flying missions that come up. come to think of it, I don't think I have logged any flight time this past year that wasn't an AFAM.

[Ned]

Playing high school football is "free" too.  But find a high school football player that doesn't fork out $100+ for all the stuff the school doesn't give them.

So it goes like this:

Me: I have a uniform solution that would cost $60 for cadets to be in uniform.
- But they get Free uniforms now

Me:  Um, there not totally free, in fact cadets often spend lots of money on all the uniform, acessories and parts.

- Well, HS Football players spend over $100 on a free program

Me:  I have a uniform solution that would only cost $60.

You: I have a "solution" . . .

Me:  There can't be a "solution" unless there is a "problem."

Me:  AF-style uniforms work just fine for cadets, thank you very much.

Ned Lee
DCP, PCR

[cnitas]

Ok, I think we all agree that military style uniforms are mission critical for the cadet program.

What about the Officer side of the house? 

What about putting everyone (Officers and Cadets) into Corporate blues? We all would match across the board.

[Ned]

Ok, I think we all agree that military style uniforms are mission critical for the cadet program.

What about the Officer side of the house? 

What about putting everyone (Officers and Cadets) into Corporate blues? We all would match across the board.

Mark,

I don't mean to be difficult here, but again it seems as if you are proposing solutions without establishing there is a problem.

If we agree that AF-style uniforms for cadets are not a "problem," why should we talk about spending over a hundred thousand dollars (20,000 cadets times your $60 figure) to fix a non-existant problem?  If I had a spare hundred grand to spend on cadets, I'll bet I can come up with a better way to spend it.

If you want to engage in "what-ifs" and "wouldn't be nice" thoughts about how seniors should dress, you'll have a lot of company.

Just leave the cadet program out of your discussions. 

We may have our problems, but wearing USAF-style uniforms is not one of them.

Peace.

Ned Lee
DCP, PCR

[Stonewall]

Playing high school football is "free" too.  But find a high school football player that doesn't fork out $100+ for all the stuff the school doesn't give them.

So it goes like this:

Me: I have a uniform solution that would cost $60 for cadets to be in uniform.
- But they get Free uniforms now

Me:  Um, there not totally free, in fact cadets often spend lots of money on all the uniform, acessories and parts.

- Well, HS Football players spend over $100 on a free program

Me:  I have a uniform solution that would only cost $60.

My point is that nothing is free, even a free uniform.  Regardless, money will be spent.  The costs of uniforms for cadets is not that bad.  It's certainly worth maintaining a decorum of a military atmosphere.  But of course, you're not in to that.

[cnitas]

Posted by: DrJbdm

You never answered the question; Why are you so against the military or more specifically the Air Force uniforms? And please, don't say cost, I don't buy that reasoning.

When did I ever say I was against the military or AF uniforms?  In fact, I am a former member of the US Army, former cadet, and wear a military style uniform at almost all CAP activities I attend.
I am asking people to justify why we wear them and I believe the results to show us a lot.  Try to think outside the box a little.

 When you joined, did you know CAP is a Auxiliary to the United States Air Force? if you are not really into the military aspect then why did you join CAP? I'm asking an honest question here.
Yes I did.  That is what brought me in as a cadet over 15 yrs ago.

 You obviously care something about rank or else you wouldn't have worked a little to get promoted to Major, why do you use rank at all?
Good question, maybe we should get rid of that too  

 Mark, what I'm getting at is that your posts seem to reflect a lack of desire to be a part of a military service, you are completely ready to dump the Air Force uniforms but a large part of me keeps thinking that cost can't be the only issue with this. I'm not criticising you Mark, I'm just making an observation based on the language you have used in your posts.

My posts are an academic exercise in trying to come up with a valid set of reasons for us to wear AF uniforms. If we cannot come up with good reasons why, how can we ask the AF to allow us continued use of their uniform? Or make changes that bring us more in line with their uniform?

Cost is often the reason used for making change to the uniforms.  In fact it is one of the major premises that the national uniform committee is using in their uniform alignment they are currently working on; therefore I was using cost as a barrier for the reasoning to overcome.  It should be easy to overcome the cost argument...like we would have no more cadets if we got rid of their military uniforms.  I believe we have made that point. We have not made it on the officer side.

  As for being only the AF aux 1% of the time, I actually think that number is a bit higher, perhaps around 90% of the time. Most of the flying I do are AFAM missions, from flying CAP cadets and AFROTC cadets, to flying in SAREXs and in performing other AFAM flying missions that come up. come to think of it, I don't think I have logged any flight time this past year that wasn't an AFAM.

Yes, but how many meetings do you attend between AFAMs? Airshows? Recruiting drives? Wing training? Other local activities?  Are you ghost member unless there is an AFAM? There are units who do not have aircraft and never go on AFAMs.

[Eclipse]

What purpose do they serve that cannot be filled with a cheaper civilian alternative?

Attention to detail, esprit, participation as color guards, national cadet competition(s) & similar activities,
parity with other paramilitary youth program.

And is this purpose worth the extra cost to members?

Yes

Do military uniforms help/hurt our mission?

Help.

Do military uniforms help/hurt recruiting/retaining seniors/cadets?

Help.

We are not the BSA, B&G Clubs, or the local rec center.  One big reason for the military style uniforms is to intentionally set off and separate our cadets from the rest of the world.  The honor of the uniform is intended to reward and convey the extra work and effort these young people invest in themselves and their futures.  For centuries a military uniform was (and IMHO still is) considered the height of honor and pride.

I have no idea why you've got "sand" about this, but the majority of the cadets in my units get the lion's share of their uniform parts issued from their unit supplies, spend about $50 total on insignia and accessories for >all< their uniforms, and would bolt for the door if directed to participate in a golf shirt.

As would many seniors.

Why? Because of the shirt? No, because it would mark a SIGNIFICANT change in the timbre and attitude of an organization which has represented something for over 60 years, and has fought tooth and nail to maintain a level of standard and expectation of performance.

Religquishing our ability to wear military uniforms, with anything less than full-on effort to retain them, would mean that we are guilty of EXACTLY what we are constantly being accused of - that our service is somehow second-class and that we do not deserve the honor of the garment.

[cnitas]

Mark,

I don't mean to be difficult here, but again it seems as if you are proposing solutions without establishing there is a problem.

If we agree that AF-style uniforms for cadets are not a "problem," why should we talk about spending over a hundred thousand dollars (20,000 cadets times your $60 figure) to fix a non-existant problem?  If I had a spare hundred grand to spend on cadets, I'll bet I can come up with a better way to spend it.

If you want to engage in "what-ifs" and "wouldn't be nice" thoughts about how seniors should dress, you'll have a lot of company.

Just leave the cadet program out of your discussions. 

We may have our problems, but wearing USAF-style uniforms is not one of them.

Peace.

Ned Lee
DCP, PCR

You guys sure do get defensive about these uniforms...

Ok here is the problem:
We have 1000 uniform variations and 'we' are working to cut them down to just a few, while at the same time minimizing the cost to the individual member.

How can we prioritize what needs to get cut, what needs to stay, and what needs to change?

Well, we do that by establishing the fundamental reasons why we wear uniforms in CAP and then make our changes based upon those principals.

If we do not establish the principals, then we are shooting from the hip, making changes because someone thought it was a good idea at the time and without any thought as to wheather the changes help, or hurt the mission (or the cost).

For instance, should we wear flags on our sleeves.  Or, remove wing patches from BDUs.  What about golf shirts? Corporate grays or Blues, or both? All of these have been hashed out on this very board ad nausem, but what without a core set of uniform principals, we are just engaging in "what-ifs" and "wouldn't be nice" thoughts.

And no, I will not leave the cadet program out of my discussions.  I will discuss cadet uniforms if I believe it needs discussing.  In fact, the major argument was that without AF uniforms, we would have a poor program (as in no cadets).  Does not speak very highly of the program now does it?

"We may have our problems, but wearing USAF-style uniforms is not one of them."

I respectfully disagree and so does the Air Force.  We cannot seem to get many of our members to wear the uniform correctly.  Why cant we wear the same color epaulet sleeves? Or hard rank, or same color name tapes?  The Air Force wants us to be different....why?  Maybe because we have not given them a good enough reason to be the same.

[Eclipse]

"We may have our problems, but wearing USAF-style uniforms is not one of them."

I respectfully disagree and so does the Air Force. 

People make this statement all the time - please cite facts that this is the case.

[DrJbdm]

Thanks for the clarifications Mark, it helps when we know what you are asking. Your posts seemed to point in the direction that you wanted to dump the AF uniforms and that normally relates to wanting to dump the strong military aspect of CAP. We do, as you have mentioned have members who wouldn't dare be caught dead wearing a military uniform, and that raises the issue of why did they join in the first place?

  I get more AFAMS then I get squadron meetings/training ect only because of the availability of AFAMS in my area.

[RogueLeader]

Ok, I think we all agree that military style uniforms are mission critical for the cadet program.

What about the Officer side of the house? 

What about putting everyone (Officers and Cadets) into Corporate blues? We all would match across the board.

In CAP, for the SM's, we have two standards

1)  The "high and tight" ie- meet AF W&G standards, and
2) "Fat and/or Fuzzies" those who do not meet above.

I am a firm believer in meeting the higher standard.  I wear the AF style uniforms because I meet the standard.  If I chose to grow a beard- my choice- go to the corporates.  I also well understand that not all people can meet that standard. That is the way the whole world runs.  Should we try to change it, sure; but do it for the right reasons.

[Ned]

Ok here is the problem:
We have 1000 uniform variations and 'we' are working to cut them down to just a few, while at the same time minimizing the cost to the individual member.

From the CP perspective, this simply isn't true.  As a practical matter well over 98% of our cadets exclusively wear the USAF-style uniforms.

And although we could manage the distribution better, new cadets get their first uniform free upon application.

Sure most cadets (and almost all seniors) wind up paying for most of their uniforms over the course of their career, but this has never been identified as significant problem in recruiting or retention over the last 60 years or so.

How can we prioritize what needs to get cut, what needs to stay, and what needs to change?

See, that's just the problem -- this "mission statement" assumes some sort of problem that needs fixing, and you have yet to suggest a problem with CP uniforms.

And no, I will not leave the cadet program out of my discussions.  I will discuss cadet uniforms if I believe it needs discussing.  In fact, the major argument was that without AF uniforms, we would have a poor program (as in no cadets).  Does not speak very highly of the program now does it?

That's a fairly odd statement coming from a DCC.  Do you honestly believe that?

If so, why.  If not, why are you bad-mouthing the cadet program you are supporting?

Further, it does not seem very logical to me.  Assuming that the USAF-uniform is a tool for teaching leadership and developing espirit, is it really surprising that depriving CP of an important tool would hurt the program?

Is it any different than speculating what might happen to SAR if we eliminate one of their important tools -- the airplane -- and then being shocked that the number of members participating might decrease?

[re my assertion that within CP the wearing of AF style uniforms is not a problem]

I respectfully disagree and so does the Air Force.  We cannot seem to get many of our members to wear the uniform correctly.  Why cant we wear the same color epaulet sleeves? Or hard rank, or same color name tapes?  The Air Force wants us to be different....why?  Maybe because we have not given them a good enough reason to be the same.

Again, it sounds like your concerns go entirely to the senior members and the various combinations authorized by the USAF and our volunteer leaders.

And as I said, you will not be lonely whilst tilting against this particular windmill.  I have a pool going trying to guess the date that LtCol White's NHQ Uniform Committee thread will go over 1,000 replies.

Want in?

[cnitas]

"We may have our problems, but wearing USAF-style uniforms is not one of them."

I respectfully disagree and so does the Air Force. 

People make this statement all the time - please cite facts that this is the case.

I thought I did...just after that line. But since you missed it...
-The AF makes us wear Ultramarine nametapes, rank, badges, etc.
-We wear grey epaulet slides as continued 'punishment' for something that happened 20 years ago
-We only this year were authorized rank on hats
These are by my understanding, AF decrees.  In fact, in in the uniform committee thread, the idea of using the same colors as the AF was shot down immediately with a "AF will not approve".
They make us so different in BDU, that we look more like a central American defence force than an USAF Aux...hence the flag.

If these are wrong, please let me know.  If they are right, then it is evident that the AF has a some problem with us wearing an AF uniform that they did not have when we wore fatigues, and when when the only difference on the service uniform was the 3 line nameplate and CAP cutouts.  It would be interesting to see an AF position paper on the topic, but none has been forthcoming that I am aware of.

[cnitas]

Ok here is the problem:
We have 1000 uniform variations and 'we' are working to cut them down to just a few, while at the same time minimizing the cost to the individual member.

From the CP perspective, this simply isn't true.  As a practical matter well over 98% of our cadets exclusively wear the USAF-style uniforms.

And although we could manage the distribution better, new cadets get their first uniform free upon application.

Sure most cadets (and almost all seniors) wind up paying for most of their uniforms over the course of their career, but this has never been identified as significant problem in recruiting or retention over the last 60 years or so.

How can we prioritize what needs to get cut, what needs to stay, and what needs to change?

See, that's just the problem -- this "mission statement" assumes some sort of problem that needs fixing, and you have yet to suggest a problem with CP uniforms.

And no, I will not leave the cadet program out of my discussions.  I will discuss cadet uniforms if I believe it needs discussing.  In fact, the major argument was that without AF uniforms, we would have a poor program (as in no cadets).  Does not speak very highly of the program now does it?

That's a fairly odd statement coming from a DCC.  Do you honestly believe that?

If so, why.  If not, why are you bad-mouthing the cadet program you are supporting?

Further, it does not seem very logical to me.  Assuming that the USAF-uniform is a tool for teaching leadership and developing espirit, is it really surprising that depriving CP of an important tool would hurt the program?

Is it any different than speculating what might happen to SAR if we eliminate one of their important tools -- the airplane -- and then being shocked that the number of members participating might decrease?

[re my assertion that within CP the wearing of AF style uniforms is not a problem]

I respectfully disagree and so does the Air Force.  We cannot seem to get many of our members to wear the uniform correctly.  Why cant we wear the same color epaulet sleeves? Or hard rank, or same color name tapes?  The Air Force wants us to be different....why?  Maybe because we have not given them a good enough reason to be the same.

Again, it sounds like your concerns go entirely to the senior members and the various combinations authorized by the USAF and our volunteer leaders.

And as I said, you will not be lonely whilst tilting against this particular windmill.  I have a pool going trying to guess the date that LtCol White's NHQ Uniform Committee thread will go over 1,000 replies.

Want in?

Did you read my previous posts?  I do NOT actually believe that taking the AF uniform away is a good thing. It is an acedemic exercise called debate.

We agree, there is no current problem with Cadets in AF uniforms. 
But...
would there be one if they were not in uniforms?  What if they were in golf shirts? 

If you think so (which I think you do), then we still need a mission statement on why cadets wear AF uniforms and NOT golf shirts, or the blue corporate uniform.  Call it a justification statement if you prefer, but that is just semantics.  I am asking WHY do we do things this way (in CAP not just the cadet program), and should we change.  So far all I am getting is NO change!.  I am not getting much 'why'. 

About the CP...you guys said that was why many cadets joined and that they would all leave if we dumped the uniforms...not me.  I was restating a summary of the comments.  If you are being intelectually honest, that seems to indicate some problem with our core program. That problem is a topic for another discussion.  And fwiw identifying problems is not bad-mouthing.

[cnitas]

Eclipse wrote:
One big reason for the military style uniforms is to intentionally set off and separate our cadets from the rest of the world.  The honor of the uniform is intended to reward and convey the extra work and effort these young people invest in themselves and their futures.  For centuries a military uniform was (and IMHO still is) considered the height of honor and pride.

So far this is the best reason I have seen for cadets to wear AF uniforms.  Followed with teaching attention to detail.  I agree with both.

Are there any reasons for Officers to wear the uniform?

[mikeylikey]

Are there any reasons for Officers to wear the uniform?

You are not serious are you?  Ask the 85 year old CAP Colonel who flew during the Second World War.  Ask the wife of the guy who died after his CAP plane crashed while he was carrying donor organs.  Ask the woman who joined CAP to help inner-city youth.  Ask the pilot who has flown every search mission in Colorado since 1956.  Ask yourself "why wouldn't I want to wear my organizations uniform?"  That is the real question.

[Ned]

[I thought I did...just after that line. But since you missed it...
-The AF makes us wear Ultramarine nametapes, rank, badges, etc.

Let me see if I can help here.

The AF "decree" that we wear blue tapes, etc. was made while the USAF wore the exact same tapes on their own uniforms.  We looked just like them.  Later, the AF changed to subdued, but we didn't need to do that, so we continued to wear the same colors the USAF wore for over 20 years.

Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't sound like this supports the notion that the USAF has a problem with our uniforms.  Kinda the opposite.

-We wear grey epaulet slides

Absolutely true.

as continued 'punishment' for something that happened 20 years ago

This is, or course, an Urban Legend.  It might be true, it might not.  Some folks swear it is true, others point out that there is absolutely no documents that suggest the reason, or authenticated statements of USAF officers who participated in the decisions.

And it is worth remembering, that before the grey slides, we wore the maroon-colored ones for several years.  The greys were, IMHO, an improvement.

If the USAF really hated us, they probably would have left us in the maroon slides.

-We only this year were authorized rank on hats

Not true.  We wore metal rank on our utility and baseball caps for many years.

That was changed for a period of years and recently we have been allowed to put grade back on some, but not all, or our uniform caps.

In in the uniform committee thread, the idea of using the same colors as the AF was shot down immediately with a "AF will not approve".

I think I read that somewhere in the 650 or so messages in that thread.

But ultimately, that's obviously just the author's opinion.

They make us so different in BDU, that we look more like a central American defence force than an USAF Aux...hence the flag.

Lot's of opinion, no facts.

If these are wrong, please let me know.

You're welcome.

It would be interesting to see an AF position paper on the topic, but none has been forthcoming that I am aware of.

Assuming such a thing exists, I agree that it would make for interesting reading.

Ned Lee

[Ned]

Did you read my previous posts?  I do NOT actually believe that taking the AF uniform away is a good thing. It is an acedemic exercise called debate.

If you think so (which I think you do), then we still need a mission statement on why cadets wear AF uniforms and NOT golf shirts, or the blue corporate uniform. 

I am asking WHY do we do things this way (in CAP not just the cadet program), and should we change.  So far all I am getting is NO change!.  I am not getting much 'why'. 

Because we have a fairly successful program at this point.

As a DCC, you must agree or I suspect you would spend your time and efforts elsewhere.

And it is the proponent of change that must bear the burden of justifying a change; not the reverse.

Otherwise it is less of an academic "debate" than a run of the mill BS session typically held in a freshman dorm accompanied by a lot of beer.

"Dude, why do we have to take so many classes that we are never gonna use?"

"Hey, Mr. Dean , you have to justify to us why we need to take history classes, man."

And fwiw identifying problems is not bad-mouthing.

Mark, what you said was "without AF uniforms, we would have a poor program (as in no cadets). "

I dunno, but implying that cadets are so shallow that what they wear is the most important factor in retention sounds like bad-mouthing to me.

Or did I misread your statement?

[Eclipse]

"We may have our problems, but wearing USAF-style uniforms is not one of them."

I respectfully disagree and so does the Air Force. 

People make this statement all the time - please cite facts that this is the case.

I thought I did...just after that line. But since you missed it...
-The AF makes us wear Ultramarine nametapes, rank, badges, etc.
-We wear grey epaulet slides as continued 'punishment' for something that happened 20 years ago
-We only this year were authorized rank on hats
These are by my understanding, AF decrees.  In fact, in in the uniform committee thread, the idea of using the same colors as the AF was shot down immediately with a "AF will not approve".
They make us so different in BDU, that we look more like a central American defence force than an USAF Aux...hence the flag.

If these are wrong, please let me know.  If they are right, then it is evident that the AF has a some problem with us wearing an AF uniform that they did not have when we wore fatigues, and when when the only difference on the service uniform was the 3 line nameplate and CAP cutouts.  It would be interesting to see an AF position paper on the topic, but none has been forthcoming that I am aware of.

They are factually correct, but don't necessarily support the argument that the USAF has a problem with us wearing a variant of their uniform.

The fact of the matter is that by law, we must have distinctive elements to our uniforms, and the things you mention above are what has >EVOLVED< over a 20-30 year period for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is our own behavior in how and when we ask for updates, and how things were handled at important times in the evolution. 

What we have today, works, for beter worse or other, and to chage something which works, even if its not the most aesthetically benevolent, requires more than just "because", for not the least of the reasons being the cost incurred by our membership.

If BigBlue decided they didn't want us wearing their uniform, we wouldn't be.

[COL Land]

Wow, you guys are always good for some interesting  reading!   

"We're military"  "What about this bling" "We not military"  "Cadets are great"  "Gotta have the bling!"  "Cadets are a pain"  "What about that bling"  Yep, if nothing else, it's all an interesting read!

Virtually 100% of the ACA membership (Officers and Cadets) is involved because of the regimented structure, personal challenges and gung-ho military culture of the program.  If we didn't use the uniform as a tool, the structure of the program would unravel (good or not, that's true) and we'd be the BSA (with Expert marksman badges and sharp haircuts!  ).