Why do we need AF Uniforms?

[Dragoon]

Makes sense.  As Dan points out, our tradition is to wear weird colored epaulets.  Red looked fine with OD, but looks like crap with blue.  Grey looks good with blue.

Go with the CAP hat badge, grey epaulets, a single nametag (whatever we can get away with on the corporate) on both uniforms.  Ditch the US's and put CAP on the lapels.

Remove the silver braid from the TPU and substitute dark blue.

In other words, focus on making the two uniforms as close together as possible.  Even if that means giving up a few USAF perks, like the U.S. collar insignia, and a few "get around USAF" perks, like metal grade on corporate suits.


But...

The utilities, I think, are actually MORE important.  Where we really need to bond as a team and to LOOK like a team, is in public doing our work.  The vast majority of which can be done in utilities. 

I can count on one hand the number of times I've worn service dress this year.  It's really not that big a deal.  But I've been in some form of utilities or flight gear around twice a week!

I really, really like thinking long term, and trying to find a way to bring corporate utilities in line with ABU/flight suits.  Perhaps switching to grey.  Or getting USAF to let everyone back in ABUs with some additional "I"m not USAF" insignia.   Failing that, putting all seniors in corporate utilities (let 'em keep their USAF Service Dress).

[JohnKachenmeister]

Thanks, Delaney.  I was confused by your earlier post.

But... is there a fourth option?

How about we have (for officers, not for cadets) ONE uniform.  But instead of following the course of the BDU, we convert to one corporate uniform that is a little closer to the Air Force uniform?  We could design a corporate uniform based on the AF Hap Arnold design, and get ahead of the changeover. 

Add in use of the BBDU and Blue flight suit, (Both of which have been AF uniforms in the past, and in the case of the BBDU, I think still is used) and we could create the "One Team" look without all of us nuts falling too far from  the Air Force tree.

[RiverAux]

I thought this was as good a uniform thread to throw this in as any -- my local paper recently ran a photo of a civilian employed by the Corps of Engineers in Iraq.  He was wearing the older style Army desert uniform with khaki nametapes with dark lettering (can't tell exactly what color).  The organization tape read "USACE CIVILIAN" and above that was a square khaki patch with a black triangle on it with white "US". 

I know we've talked about civilians wearing military uniforms in war zones before but I don't recall that particular combination being discussed.  Just thought it was interesting. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Army Regulations have a provision for civilian insignia... a khaki patch worn over the left pocket of any uniform with a blue equalateral triangle and the letters "US" inside the triangle.  This has been a standard insignia since WWII, although some have the person's assignment above and below the triangle.

"War Correspondent" was a common one.

[mikeylikey]

Army Regulations have a provision for civilian insignia... a khaki patch worn over the left pocket of any uniform with a blue equilateral triangle and the letters "US" inside the triangle.  This has been a standard insignia since WWII, although some have the person's assignment above and below the triangle.

"War Correspondent" was a common one.

Army Officer's Guide, Edition 9, 1941 specify Civilians accompanying the Army will wear an Officer's uniform WITHOUT rank insignia and an arm brassard noting specialty. 

Overseas, the civilians I saw and worked with usually had on ACU's or Desert's (pre-ACU's) or wore cargo pants and a polo.  I rarely saw Civilians with the distinguishing insignia talked about above.

[Hawk200]

Army Regulations have a provision for civilian insignia... a khaki patch worn over the left pocket of any uniform with a blue equalateral triangle and the letters "US" inside the triangle.  This has been a standard insignia since WWII, although some have the person's assignment above and below the triangle.

You can get an insignia like this for the ACU now. Goes on the rank insignia Velcro of the ACU. Don't know how many people are wearing it now, but it's available.

[ddelaney103]

When I saw civilians in uniform few had the triangle patch.  Most has branch tapes that said "DOD CIVILIAN" or something similar.  I suspect it was because it was easier to get the tapes made than find that patch.  I found enough for my trip but it wasn't easy.

I did see an American Red Cross person with ARC cutouts on the collar and branch tape.

[JohnKachenmeister]

ARC has its own uniform regulations.  The "Donut Dollies" in Vietnam wore a light blue dress.

[Dragoon]

While I know it will never fly, one way to get EVERYONE, regardless of hair and weight, into USAF uniforms is to emulate deployed USAF civilians.

Meaning no officer grade.

It actually makes sense.  We are, after all volunteer USAF civilians (no UCMJ hear).  We aren't really part of the military grade  pecking order - our majors don't outrank their captains, but neither do their Lt Cols outrank our majors.  Our pecking order is based on position - either answering to a unit chain of command or an incident chain of command. 

A USAF civilian can supervise USAF Officers.  And a USAF Officer can supervise USAF civilians.  It's all based on position.  Just like the way we do business.

USAF civilians can be fat and fuzzy and long haired and STILL wear BDUs.  Because it's clear by the insignia that they aren't officers, or NCOs.  No comparision, no confusion. 

Full members of the USAF team, just not on the miltary side.

But my guess is that folks will give up their railroad tracks when you pry their cold, dead hands...etc. etc.

[Falshrmjgr]

OK, need to drop my $.02 here.  And this is were I think we AND mother blue (especially) have lost sight of the big picture.

What is the whole point of an Auxiliary anyway?  Firstly, like any contract, there is consideration on both sides.  On the Air Force side, there is the expectation that they will a gain a certain amount of value (in our case labor) at no or little cost.  On the CAP side, we give our labor in return for a certain amount of respect and the opportunity to serve.

Now historically, auxiliaries are composed of those too old, too young, too infirm or otherwise unqualified for active service.

So how is the CAP-USAF relationship being conducted in light of this?  Well it seems to me that we have crime and punishment reversed here.  Frankly, those who are "Fit to Fight" have no business in an auxiliary.   They should be in the active Air Force, carrying out the missions of our great nation.  If anything, being "Fit to Fight" should EXCLUDE one from membership.

So how are those who are not "Fit to Fight" treated?  Instead of being rewarded for their sacrifices and commitment, they are told that they are in fact second-class citizens.  That they are not allowed to wear the uniform of "Full" membership.  Perhaps they should just be forced to wear a scarlet letter "U" for unfit.

The Air Force seems to argue that perception is reality.  And that some civilian who sees a fat CAPer will think the Air Force is a bunch of Fat Bodies.

Well, perception is reality, and the perception here is that what some ignorant civilian who doesn't know enough about the United States military to know the difference between CAP and the USAF is more important to impress than treating members of the USAF TEAM with honor and respect.

It seems to me that Mother Blue is not holding up her end of the bargain.  I realize that there are lots and lots of well meaning, well intentioned folks who work on both sides of the aisle.  And I also realize that there has been some historical reasons for CAP to lose credibility with Mother Blue.  But frankly, those reasons and those individuals do not excuse the institutional behavior of the organization as a whole.

Frankly, to paraphrase, rather than coming out here and telling our dedicated members that their sacrifice of time and money is not sufficient, and that they need to get skinny too; I'd rather just hear a simple "Thank You for your service."

Thus endeth the rant.

[Dragoon]

You make a very good point here, especially about weight. 

There was a time when there were no weight standards in CAP, and we seemed to do okay.   Of course, grooming standards are another issue - with the exception of the occasional religious or medical waiver, a person chooses to be long haired or fuzzy.  And can change that decision in 5 minutes with a gillette.

I really, really believe the current sticking point over the USAF uniform is based on CAP basically hopeing to be mistaken for real USAF military.  The whole fight over trying to get a CAC-look alike as an ID card, the attempts to minimize the CAP-ness of the uniform, pushing for metal rank and the like.  It's a cultural battle that doesn't need to be fought.

We aren't active, or reserve, or guard.  We're the Auxiliary.  We aren't in the military - we're civilians.

If both sides could embrace what we are  AND WHAT WE"RE NOT, I think we might be able to come up with a workable Auxiliary structure that actually gets us closer to USAF.  Because it would be a structure based on truth, and not on wishes or perceptions.

[Bluelakes 13]

You make a very good point here, especially about weight. 
There was a time when there were no weight standards in CAP, and we seemed to do okay. 

And then this happened...

http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2007/fit.nation/obesity.map/

[mikeylikey]

^ Thats cool, thanks!

[JohnKachenmeister]

You make a very good point here, especially about weight. 

There was a time when there were no weight standards in CAP, and we seemed to do okay.   Of course, grooming standards are another issue - with the exception of the occasional religious or medical waiver, a person chooses to be long haired or fuzzy.  And can change that decision in 5 minutes with a gillette.

I really, really believe the current sticking point over the USAF uniform is based on CAP basically hopeing to be mistaken for real USAF military.  The whole fight over trying to get a CAC-look alike as an ID card, the attempts to minimize the CAP-ness of the uniform, pushing for metal rank and the like.  It's a cultural battle that doesn't need to be fought.

We aren't active, or reserve, or guard.  We're the Auxiliary.  We aren't in the military - we're civilians.

If both sides could embrace what we are  AND WHAT WE"RE NOT, I think we might be able to come up with a workable Auxiliary structure that actually gets us closer to USAF.  Because it would be a structure based on truth, and not on wishes or perceptions.

Perception IS reality.

Personally, I think that it is entirely appropriate to have everyone in one uniform (the Air Force and us) with us auxiliary guys having a clear designator on the uniform that identifies us as the Air Force's volunteer auxiliary.

Now if you package that designator as a mark of second-class citizenship, it sucks.  "You are not as good as us, therefore you must wear this mark on your clothing."

BUT... If that designator is honored and respected as the mark of a citizen who chooses to serve his nation without compensation, a special force of volunteers with a great heritage and a lot to offer, it becomes a point of pride and puts some swagger into the step.

In order to accomplish that we have to:

1.  Accept out differences, and realize that we HAVE to do some things different since we are composed of all volunteers.

2.  QUIT BEATING OURSELVES UP!  Accept that we are, in fact and in law, a part of the Air Force, and that we serve our country as flyers as much as any Air Force guy does.  Except we don't have to stand in a pay line.

3.  Tell our story to the public loud and clear, and don't be embarrassed when someone wants to thank you for your service.  There is a reason that YOU are wearing your country's uniform, and he isn't.  Since it has nothing to do with age, physical qualification, or desire to not drop civilian employment for 6 months or more, there can ONLY be one explanation:  You are the better patriot.

As soon as the AF sees things my way, the better this world will be!   

[LittleIronPilot]

OK, need to drop my $.02 here.  And this is were I think we AND mother blue (especially) have lost sight of the big picture.

What is the whole point of an Auxiliary anyway?  Firstly, like any contract, there is consideration on both sides.  On the Air Force side, there is the expectation that they will a gain a certain amount of value (in our case labor) at no or little cost.  On the CAP side, we give our labor in return for a certain amount of respect and the opportunity to serve.

Now historically, auxiliaries are composed of those too old, too young, too infirm or otherwise unqualified for active service.

So how is the CAP-USAF relationship being conducted in light of this?  Well it seems to me that we have crime and punishment reversed here.  Frankly, those who are "Fit to Fight" have no business in an auxiliary.   They should be in the active Air Force, carrying out the missions of our great nation.  If anything, being "Fit to Fight" should EXCLUDE one from membership.

So how are those who are not "Fit to Fight" treated?  Instead of being rewarded for their sacrifices and commitment, they are told that they are in fact second-class citizens.  That they are not allowed to wear the uniform of "Full" membership.  Perhaps they should just be forced to wear a scarlet letter "U" for unfit.

The Air Force seems to argue that perception is reality.  And that some civilian who sees a fat CAPer will think the Air Force is a bunch of Fat Bodies.

Well, perception is reality, and the perception here is that what some ignorant civilian who doesn't know enough about the United States military to know the difference between CAP and the USAF is more important to impress than treating members of the USAF TEAM with honor and respect.

It seems to me that Mother Blue is not holding up her end of the bargain.  I realize that there are lots and lots of well meaning, well intentioned folks who work on both sides of the aisle.  And I also realize that there has been some historical reasons for CAP to lose credibility with Mother Blue.  But frankly, those reasons and those individuals do not excuse the institutional behavior of the organization as a whole.

Frankly, to paraphrase, rather than coming out here and telling our dedicated members that their sacrifice of time and money is not sufficient, and that they need to get skinny too; I'd rather just hear a simple "Thank You for your service."

Thus endeth the rant.

EXCUSE ME?

I HAVE served, have "fought" in actual combat, and am STILL "fit to fight". However I have other obligations and priorities, and desires, that preclude me from re-joining our Armed Forces. So now I am supposed to NOT join CAP because I could otherwise, based on fitness alone, be in the Armed Forces?

Man I have heard some doozies, but that takes the cake.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Don't get mad, L.I.P.

I see his point.

You have served in combat, as have I.  For me, the PT test got harder and harder to pass, so I took my 22 years and went home.  I later joined CAP

Your lack of fitness may not relate to your physical condition.  Your reason for not staying in the military could be financial, family-related, or simply a determination that you have done your job for Sam and now need to start working for Little Iron Pilot, and all the Little Iron Pilots to come.

I also think that an 18-20 year old cadet in good shape should serve his country on active duty before popping over to the CAP officer side.  That is the whole idea of "...prepare to be of service" in the Cadet Oath.

[Dragoon]

Now if you package that designator as a mark of second-class citizenship, it sucks.  "You are not as good as us, therefore you must wear this mark on your clothing."

I think the reason it often gets packaged that way is because, frankly, we pretend to be more than we are.  So USAF gets a bit defensive. 

Adopting the uniform of the team makes sense - we ARE part of the Air Force, at least some of the time.

But adopting their officer titles and insignia that even the thousands of paid USAF civlians don't get is where I think the rub lies.

Since we want to have captains and majors, USAF goes to great length to point out that we aren't "real" colonels and generals.  I can't blame 'em - they don't want any of their uniformed guys thinking they have to answer to us.  And they don't want anyone on the outside thinking we are them, when our average training level is gonna be so much lower (in terms of hours spent doing it).

I think we'd actually interoperate better and be treated more as team members if we accepted our role as auxiliarists, donned their uniform and worked with them as USAF civilians. 

We could still have an internal grade structure (using CAP-specific insignia), and we could still be set up along para-military lines.  But we'd avoid direct comparisons about "who's second class and who's better" by making it clear that we aren't active or reserve - we are civilians who have volunteered our time and talent without pay to better our country and assist our air force.

I think we'd be respected for that.

So...to bring this full circle - do we NEED AF uniforms?  No.  Could they help?  Yes - if everyone wore them, and we used them to designate our place on the USAF team - and not invite unfair comparisons with our partners.

[foriley]

I know this is sacrilegious but...

I am in favor of foregoing the USAF uniform. We simply aren't USAF. That we're authorized to wear the uniform doesn't mean we have to or that it's a good idea.

I propose below in fact that it is not a good idea.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the USAF uniforms. I am chagrinned that I didn't enter the service when I was able to (too old now) and should have. I'd love to wear the uniform... but it isn't my uniform and that opportunity, like the opportunity to apologize to Bridget K for being an utter ass in college, is long, long gone. Let's let it go. Move on. Deal with what we are, not what we could (have) be(en).

CAP needs its own uniform. Just the one. And one that fits us.

I have several arguments, all of which are opinion and no attempt to represent fact is intended. You're entitled to your own opinion and rebuttals are welcome, though I'm not going to defend or pursue this any further:

1.   The uniform is not uniform.
a.   A substantial number of our members appear to be unable/unqualified to wear USAF uniforms, which results in at least two uniforms then being presented at an event... and often far more than two! Given this we look absurd, in my opinion, when "in uniform". This writer has yet to attend an event where a single, uniform look was presented. Whether the National Convention, courses at Region or Wing, or public events we, CAP, looked like several organizations hanging around together;
b.   Even wearing the USAF uniform we don't actually wear their uniform, our tapes, name plates, rank, etc are different. This would be fine if everybody wore the same uniform. It adds to the confusion and poor presentation when we're on an AFB though. Add (a) above and... ick!

2.   The USAF ABU/BDU and flightsuit are poorly suited to CAP's ES mission.
a.   Ground, flight line and air crews are ridiculously hard to see when wearing camouflage or camo colors and although that's the purpose of camo it's so antithetical to ES that the mind boggles;
i.   ES relies in part on seeing and being seen. Mitigating that disadvantages CAP, the mission, our partners and anybody trying to see us, like a person in need of ES or a tactical manager trying to identify assets;
ii.   The USAF uniforms do not allow for customary SAR markings. Reflective tape, large letters declaring affiliation and/or specialty, high-visibility devices, etc are denied CAP.
b.   SAR customary insignia / decorations are not authorized which sets CAP apart and is off-putting to other professional SAR responders. (At least in this writer's experiences with local sheriffs and other SAR posses. I'm sure others can share contrary histories.);
c.   Rather than appearing to civilians and disaster victims as ES we appear as military or worse para-military wannabes.
d.   Absent wearing additional and heretofore unauthorized USAF uniform items it is difficult to carry necessary radios, first-aid and/or survival equipment, signaling devices, target detection devices, etc.
i.   This leaves a choice between being non-compliant with USAF/CAP uniform strictures or leaving desirable equipment behind.

3.   Better alternatives exist, are equally cost effective / costly, and customary to CAP's three missions.
a.   We could replace the USAF flightsuit with a high-visibility, Nomex flightsuit having reflective tape and reflective patches, similar pockets, etc.
b.   The BDU might be more effectively replaced with 5.11 or similar tactical or BDU-style pants with subdued reflective accents, high-visibility shirt, optional gloves and headgear in high-visibility colors and with reflective tape, etc. (There are excellent "subdued" reflective materials, often seen in runners' clothing, to accent.)
c.   The CAP corporate uniform with white shirt and either the blue or gray pants (pick one, but only one) is a great alternative to the USAF blues. I'd even go so far as to say that I'd prefer black over gray, and blue over black. (The black would be a bit... ugh... Naval. And with the TPU coat, which I really hate, in black too we'd be welcome on a ship's bridge anywhere.)

4.   The USAF ABU/BDU and flightsuit compromise safety.
a.   CAP flightline crew can be difficult for pilots and others to see;
b.   CAP members are just generally hard to see. It puts members at risk when near traffic or anywhere that visual identification is important;
c.   The flightsuit is hard to see by potential rescuers of aircrews downed or landing off-airport. The ABU/BDU is hard to see by potential rescuers of lost, injured or other CAP assets in the field.

5.   There is a long and appropriate tradition of pride in the USAF uniform. CAP should invest in and build its own such traditions, and wear its own distinctive uniform with pride.
a.   I believe that too many proponents of the USAF uniform are "playing Air Force". That simply isn't CAP. We're not USAF. We're non-military, non-combatant, volunteers in a charitable organization with profoundly different missions than USAF. I am profoundly uncomfortable by discussions of wearing / utilizing / employing additional USAF gear, uniform elements, behaviors, etc. They *earned* the right to those things. Let's us build, designate, invest and value our own unique gear, etc. (I've got a similar rant on rank... betcha couldn't guess);
b.   Personally, I am far prouder of my salute to a USAF or other service member when I'm wearing a CAP "corporate" uniform than when I'm wearing a variant of his/her uniform. I feel it honors them, me and CAP more specifically and more deeply;
c.   CAP could stand distinct and bring more attention to itself by designating and employing its own, separate uniform;
d.   The CAP accents to coat, decorations, etc could borrow accenting USAF colors as an homage and recognition of our USAF affiliation.

Nothing personal intended herein. I'm glad to be affiliated with CAP no matter what we wear.

[Ned]

Interesting and certainly logical.

But, your post is 986 words long and contains not a single mention of cadets or the cadet program --  the single program that involves over 50% of our membership.

Would taking cadets into account alter your thoughts in any way?

Respectfully,

Ned Lee
DCP, PCR

[JayT]

I also think that an 18-20 year old cadet in good shape should serve his country on active duty before popping over to the CAP officer side.  That is the whole idea of "...prepare to be of service" in the Cadet Oath.

So I should pack in my CAP uniform and take my business (and membership dues) elsewhere?