Senior v. Cadet Development

[kpetersen]

This is probably the former cadet in me coming out, but I'm a bit confused about the progression on the Senior Member side of things.  I mean, I know of cadet who have earned their spaatz, crossed over to the CAP Officer side, and then 10 years down the road, they're still sitting at captain.  Yes, AFIDL 13 has a bunch of useless knowledge, but I know a lot of seniors that get Level 2, maybe even 1, and sit there for years.  I guess what I'm asking is:

1.  Why does this happen?
2.  What can be done to change it?
3.  Should it even be changed?

[SDF_Specialist]

This is probably the former cadet in me coming out, but I'm a bit confused about the progression on the Senior Member side of things.  I mean, I know of cadet who have earned their spaatz, crossed over to the CAP Officer side, and then 10 years down the road, they're still sitting at captain.  Yes, AFIDL 13 has a bunch of useless knowledge, but I know a lot of seniors that get Level 2, maybe even 1, and sit there for years.  I guess what I'm asking is:

1.  Why does this happen?
2.  What can be done to change it?
3.  Should it even be changed?

I haven't hit Captain yet because of time in grade. But please allow me to chime in and try to answer your questions.

1. Why does this happen?
There are a lot of acheivements for officers to progress in the professional development track. Look at the requirements for Lt. Col. Sometimes, these are ridiculous if you ask me. To go to the various courses such as SLS, CLC, RSC. It just gets to be too much.

2. What can be done to change it?
First, there could be an elimination of some of the required items. I'm ok with time in grade personally because it gives you a chance to mature and prove that you are ready for the next grade and the responsibility that comes with it.

3. Should it even be changed?
A lot of Officers like the way it is, but there are also a lot of officer who want to progress but can't because of all of the requirements. There should be some alternatives introduces to make it a bit easier for the people who can't attend the various courses.

That's just my opinion.

[jeders]

This is probably the former cadet in me coming out, but I'm a bit confused about the progression on the Senior Member side of things.  I mean, I know of cadet who have earned their spaatz, crossed over to the CAP Officer side, and then 10 years down the road, they're still sitting at captain.  Yes, AFIDL 13 has a bunch of useless knowledge, but I know a lot of seniors that get Level 2, maybe even 1, and sit there for years.  I guess what I'm asking is:

1.  Why does this happen?
2.  What can be done to change it?
3.  Should it even be changed?

1. Unlike the cadet side of the house, rank is not always that important for seniors, unless they want to move up in the command structure, i.e. group/wing/region/national commander.

The best way I can explain it is the way a former Spaatzen turned senior explained it to me. Being a captain is just about right. Any lower and people treat you like you don't know anything. The only reason to go higher is if you to boss around other seniors.

As far as some requirements being ridiculous, that's only true if you want to promote to full colonel in the absolute minimum time required, and even that can be done with time to spare if you try hard enough. The requirements for doing courses and going to conferences are there to make sure that seniors are exposed to all parts of CAP, not just the squadron.

3. Should there be changes made, yes.

2. The reason that a lot of people sit, beyond not caring that much about a gold leaf instead of silver bars, is that a lot of the courses aren't readily available. Some wings only offer SLS and CLC once a year. The changes that need to be made are relaxing the requirements, we've done enough of that in other areas. The changes that need to be made are making these courses more readily available to the masses that want them.

[Pace]

1. Why does this happen?
There are a lot of acheivements for officers to progress in the professional development track. Look at the requirements for Lt. Col. Sometimes, these are ridiculous if you ask me. To go to the various courses such as SLS, CLC, RSC. It just gets to be too much.

It doesn't have to be done frequently, and one PD course per level is the least appropriate it can get without handing the awards out like candy.  What I believe should be done is a restructuring of SLS and CLC, since they cover many of the same topics, or a clear guide should be made and distributed since the ones I've been to were taught almost identically.  In fact, I think the number of requirements is low considering that one's progression through the PD should set you apart from those who don't progress as it should show your level of dedication to personal improvement and partipation in the program(s).  Now I'm not talking about people that haven't been in long.  I'm more referring to the original statement of people that came in as captains and 10 years later there's still no leaves on their shoulder.  However, one's PD level is not the determining factor of one's worth to CAP, but the requirements for the awards certainly should not be reduced.

2. What can be done to change it?
First, there could be an elimination of some of the required items. I'm ok with time in grade personally because it gives you a chance to mature and prove that you are ready for the next grade and the responsibility that comes with it.

That time in grade doesn't take into consideration the professional and personal improvement and greater gain of skill-specific knowledge that the PD program currently requires.

3. Should it even be changed?
A lot of Officers like the way it is, but there are also a lot of officer who want to progress but can't because of all of the requirements. There should be some alternatives introduces to make it a bit easier for the people who can't attend the various courses.

Agreed.  Supposedly, the corporate staff tried several years ago to make regionalized National Staff Colleges so more people could attend.  Politics and ownership of the program won out, and it's still at Maxwell, scheduled at an inconvenient time of the year; although every few years (4, I think), they offer it in the summer.  If you truly can't make it to the (RSC/NSC) courses, there are alternatives that have been in place for a while.  Not registering for those is no excuse to blame CAP for getting stuck at a lower grade, which would still be Major since it only requires CLC.

As for the original post:

This is probably the former cadet in me coming out, but I'm a bit confused about the progression on the Senior Member side of things.  I mean, I know of cadet who have earned their spaatz, crossed over to the CAP Officer side, and then 10 years down the road, they're still sitting at captain.  Yes, AFIDL 13 has a bunch of useless knowledge, but I know a lot of seniors that get Level 2, maybe even 1, and sit there for years.  I guess what I'm asking is:

1.  Why does this happen?
2.  What can be done to change it?
3.  Should it even be changed?

1. Sometimes people focus so much on the mission(s) of their choice that they neglect the SM PD program since it's not a integral part of our program like it is for the cadets.  I say as long as they're contributing to the mission, who cares if they decide to promote or not.  I just don't want to hear their whining when they don't qualify for certain selective courses/positions or when they don't get selected because of their rank.

Then, of course, there's the group that are only in CAP to do what they want (usually to fly) and couldn't care less about staff assignments, specialty tracks, PD courses, and responsibility.  They're here to fly (or insert other activity that they'll do but nothing else to help CAP).  Period.

2 & 3.  I don't think it should be changed for the reason I mentioned above.  It distinguishes those that *want* to better themselves and CAP from those that don't.   Where there is a will, there IS a way.

Sharks, dig in...

[davedove]

Then, of course, there's the group that are only in CAP to do what they want (usually to fly) and couldn't care less about staff assignments, specialty tracks, PD courses, and responsibility.  They're here to fly (or insert other activity that they'll do but nothing else to help CAP).  Period.

I think that's probably the biggest reason right there.  These folks come in, get their initial grade (for pilot or whatever) and then just stay where they are.  They contribute to their part of the mission, and are happy to do so.

As far as not having the courses available, I think folks just need to look a little harder.  Now, I understand it would be harder in some states, but I've only been a member for a little over a year and I will soon have my Level III.  In addition, I'm working towards Ground Team Leader and wear a couple of hats in the squadron.  That's on top of a full time job.  And before you say it, I am far from a hard charger; I like my down time a lot.  But it can be done.

But, to provide a bit more insight into the original question, you don't HAVE to progress in the senior member program to contribute to CAP.  Once you've completed Level I, you can do pretty much anything you want in CAP except get promoted without the PD.

[jimmydeanno]

Then, of course, there's the group that are only in CAP to do what they want (usually to fly) and couldn't care less about staff assignments, specialty tracks, PD courses, and responsibility.  They're here to fly (or insert other activity that they'll do but nothing else to help CAP).  Period.

There is a difference between some of those people.  I have seen many types.

The first being the pilot who joins soley for the cheap flying.  The only time you see this member is when the prop is turning...I think we can all agree, that's bad.

The second being the pilot who joins because he wants to fly as a cadet orientation pilot.  He gives a day 3 times a month to fly and shows up for the safety briefings and squadron meetings.  He doesn't care about being a captain or progressing the senior program because he's retired and doesn't really care about going to CLC because he wants his role in the volunteer organization he joined to be low level, nothing to do with command.  He stays at the grade of SM FOREVER!

The third being the pilot who joins for the same reason above and does the same thing, but his Sq CC knows that he can be appointed as a Captain and does so even though the pilot doesn't care.  Since he only wears the polo combo when he flies, what's the point in knowing your a captain, as long as you can keep flying the cadets and filling your role in the unit, after all, wearing gold leaves doesn't make you a better pilot...

Then there is the joined, know's they're a captain, figures..."Eh, I have enough grade" what's the point of taking that "AFLADILL" course, I can still fly, stay a captain, and not have to doing anything to keep it.

[DogCollar]

I've been in a little more than a year, having received my chaplain appointment as a Captain last Sept.  Chaplains really don't have insentive to progress in PD and rank unless they want to serve in a setting "higher" than squadron.  I don't ahave the time or the inclination to serve beyond the squadron setting.

Also, the PD requirements, at least the chaplaincy specialty track, is...well...poorly written and confusing.  I really like what I'm doing now...moral leadership...informal pastoral care to cadets/senior members/and families.  I like being a cheerleader for those who are achieving great things in their own development, and the one to offer encouragement to that cadet or two that seem to be struggling.

I personally like both my wing chaplain and my region chaplain.  I attended the Region Chaplain Staff College in May, greatly enjoyed it, got a lot out of it, enjoyed the fellowship of other chaplains and MLO's.  That being said, I don't want to take classes (especially when they are only offered on weekends....hello, Mcfly...hello ...most chaplains have regular weekend gigs)...and It's not necesaary to achieve a higher grade when chaplains don't exercise command, but our authority comes from our integrity and our ability to pastorally relate effectively to others.  That's not something learned is AFIDL classes or SLC or CLC.

[ZigZag911]

My feeling is that AFIADL CAP Officer Course (old ECI-13) should be required for 2nd Lt....it is, after all, CAP equivalent to a RM "Officer Basic Course:.

The idea of regionalized NSC is appealing....it's an issue that ought to be raised again....offer a bit of variety in times offered, possibility of less travel expense.....it's a course more of our senior leaders need....ACSC is a wonderful course....I've started twice, it is absolutely fascinating material, but so time consuming and such a relatively short completion time, i have not been able to finish it.

[SDF_Specialist]

One thing I don't understand is the requirement to instruct or direct an SLS, CLC etc. Isn't that a PDO thing? There are a lot of people who are uncomfortable with speaking in front of large crowds. I use to be one until I became a Comms instructor, but that's just me. What about eveyone else?

[Cecil DP]

The fact is that since is Professional Development is optional and usually not a priority for units. Most Squadron's have enough problems meeting the mandatory requirements of the program. SLS'ss and CLC's are held at most twice a year and usually together on a holiday weekend.

If I were running the world, every Wing would delegate the conduct of these schools to the Groups with a requirement that they be held at least 1 a year and in coordination with adjacent groups IE Group I would have a SLS in Jan and a CLC in July, Group II would have a CLC in March and a SLS in September. There fore everyone within driving distance (2 Hours) would have two opportunities to get the training needed.  TLC's would be included in the Group's requirements
UCC's would still be a Wing responsibility.

The last PDW in Florida was in Coral Springs, so that to some people in the furthest reaches it would require a 10-12 hour (700 miles) drive each way and hotel reservations. I feel that while these PDW's are a good thing the travel requirements including lodging, tend to keep those needing them to stay away.

[Cecil DP]

My feeling is that AFIADL CAP Officer Course (old ECI-13) should be required for 2nd Lt....it is, after all, CAP equivalent to a RM "Officer Basic Course:.

The idea of regionalized NSC is appealing....it's an issue that ought to be raised again....offer a bit of variety in times offered, possibility of less travel expense.....it's a course more of our senior leaders need....ACSC is a wonderful course....I've started twice, it is absolutely fascinating material, but so time consuming and such a relatively short completion time, i have not been able to finish it.

Actually the regionalized NSC's turned into the Region Staff Colleges.

[Pace]

Actually the regionalized NSC's turned into the Region Staff Colleges.

That may have been the case years ago (waaaaay before I even knew about CAP), but considering this comment came from someone while I was a cadet who is now at the top of one of the NHQ chains, that idea did not transform into something that already exists.

[arajca]

1. The requirement also allows for directing an SLS/CLC. You can do that without getting in front of the class.

2. I have yet to see SLS and CLC held at the same time. And I NEVER seen either held on a holiday weekend.

3. The 2 hour driving distance is good for the little states, but if your group takes at least 10 hours to cross, you have problems. Group 2 in COWG covers the norhtern half of the state.

[Camas]

One thing I don't understand is the requirement to instruct or direct an SLS, CLC etc. Isn't that a PDO thing?

It's required if you wish to complete Level IV (instruct) or Level V (direct).  It's not the answer for everyone as many are quite happy completing Level II or III. Check out CAPR 50-17; you'll find the answer to your question there.  It really isn't a "PDO thing"; it's something you'll have to do to complete the higher levels in professional development.

[SDF_Specialist]

One thing I don't understand is the requirement to instruct or direct an SLS, CLC etc. Isn't that a PDO thing?

It's required if you wish to complete Level IV (instruct) or Level V (direct).  It's not the answer for everyone as many are quite happy completing Level II or III. Check out CAPR 50-17; you'll find the answer to your question there.  It really isn't a "PDO thing"; it's something you'll have to do to complete the higher levels in professional development.

So if you direct an SLS or CLC, you don't get credit for Level IV, just V?

[Eclipse]

2. I have yet to see SLS and CLC held at the same time. And I NEVER seen either held on a holiday weekend.

SOP in my Wing - which is why I find [redacted]'s blustering about his awesome PD Weekends humorous.
We've never done it any other way - makes better use of the instructors, facilities, and the calendar.
Anyone eligible to be an instructor (i.e. has completed both SLS & CLC), can also teach both, so tag-teaming a few members as instructors makes things easy, and keeps things more consistent.

So if you direct an SLS or CLC, you don't get credit for Level IV, just V?

Correct.
Level IV="staff member" (i.e. instructor, though I suppose "donut guy" would technically qualify as well),
Level V="director" (i.e. PIC)

The answer to the PD question with seniors is easy - none of it, beyond Level 1, is required to do >ANYTHING< within CAP.  Even the guidelines for Wing CC are "recommendations".

Because of that, members who joined to "fly", or do "cadet stuff", or "whatever", and who find a way to do it, don't see the need.  Couple that with the huge PITA getting PD stuff ordered / tested / credited, and members just throw up their hands and say "forget it".

If their commander is both regularly reminding people of the positive aspects and rewards of the work, >and< progressing himself, the circle of life is completed.

I don't agree with it, but "SAY LOVEE"

[RiverAux]

I think most people fail to progress because they're not terribly interested in it.  While I have known some people stuck in a rank because they continually had conflicts with scheduled SLS/CLC classes, most people can get up to Major with very little effort on their part in a relatively short period of time. 

The other thing keeping some folks back is that it isn't always emphasized.  Unless you've got active Admin/Personnel officers pushing people they probably won't do it unless they've got a lot of internal motivation. 

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

2. I have yet to see SLS and CLC held at the same time. And I NEVER seen either held on a holiday weekend. 

Our Group held SLS, CLC and an AFIADL 013 Review Course all together in one weekend.  They have done it every year for the past couple of years.

[SarDragon]

If that's the one that was at March a while back, I was an instructor, and had a blast. Can't wait to do it again!

[mikeylikey]

Move the courses on line.  Expand on  them and make them just like the AFIADL program.  Require a test.  Also require finding a mentor and actually having to do things that can not just be "pencil-whipped" through. 

Having one SLS or CLC a year is ridiculous, at the very least.  Paying to attend these courses is ridiculous, especially when they are located on military instillations.  Get an MSA, get the free billeting and the reduced lunch and dinner prices in the DIFAC.  If need be, have the wing pay 5 dollars to buy the member attending lunch and dinner at McDonald's.  I know others that are getting sick of throwing money toward WING HQ, when they bring so much in every year, and most of it goes to support Hawk MTN.  PAWG actually charges 10 dollars per night for BOQ billeting, when I know for fact that the Post will put CAP up for free in the BOQ if there is an activity going on.  I set it up, and I would like to know why people are paying for billeting in PAWG, and PAWG is not paying the billeting office.  Can we say FRAUD, WASTE and ABUSE? 

Sorry.....you can see my hatred for my Wing!