Gortex Parka: Where to Purchase, and What Components?

[chadrm]

Hello,

1.)  where should one buy an approved AF gortex parka for CAP wear?  Is this a BX item?  I don't think I've ever seen them on the racks.  Might it be a special order thing?  Are approved AF parkas available in some other way?

2.)  is the parka an all-in-one package deal, or is it the sort of thing that's "three season, and has removeable shell, fleece liner, etc.?  Does one have to be careful to buy all components, or does the thing come complete?


Thanks,
Chad

[LtCol White]

Some MCCS stores carry them or there are catalogs and ebay. However, I wouldn't spend the money right now on it since we'll be going to the ABU and the Gortex jacket will be in the new pattern.

[MIKE]

http://www.rangerjoes.com/gore-tex-ecwcs-parka-p-185.html

[chadrm]

Is there a ballpark approval / wear date for the ABU?  Rumor?  Fact (haven't seen any new uniform regs)?

Thanks

[LtCol White]

Is there a ballpark approval / wear date for the ABU?  Rumor?  Fact (haven't seen any new uniform regs)?

Thanks

Nothing official has been put out in writing  but USAF has said we will wear the ABU

[JC004]

I bought Gore-Tex pants (new condition) from guardhousesupply on eBay.  Really fast shipping, good service, decent price.  He said that he's going to get another shipment of Gore-Tex in soon.  I would recommend sending him a message on eBay.

[chadrm]

Let's put it this way:  will the ABU be approved before this Fall / Winter?

Wondering if I want to go another winter wearing the old-school cotton heavy jacket with no hood deal.

[JC004]

Let's put it this way:  will the ABU be approved before this Fall / Winter?

Wondering if I want to go another winter wearing the old-school cotton heavy jacket with no hood deal.

I would get a Gore-Tex parka.  Can still be worn in higher temperatures and sheds the water nicely.  Of course, you could buy an M-65 from the General Colgan Supply Depot...I have a drum of them in my personal supply.   

[MIKE]

Let's put it this way:  will the ABU be approved before this Fall / Winter?

I think it's safe to say, no.

[LtCol White]

.

Let's put it this way:  will the ABU be approved before this Fall / Winter?

I think it's safe to say, no

Have to agree here. I think the initial authorization will be more like summer - fall 08

[JC004]

.

Let's put it this way:  will the ABU be approved before this Fall / Winter?

I think it's safe to say, no

Have to agree here. I think the initial authorization will be more like summer - fall 08

Or maybe something completely different, which is being shown at the Town Hall meeting fashion show, which they won't stream for us   

[MIKE]

TRU in Multicam perhaps? 

[Hawk200]

TRU in Multicam perhaps? 

Do you actually want us to get lost in the woods? Multicam is one of the most effective 2D camo's in existance. In the digital, at least we'd stand out.

[chadrm]

This is all moot until the blue CAP grade slides become available, correct?  The parka cannot be properly worn without the slide, right?  These are still not available?

[LtCol White]

Vanguard has the slides

[chadrm]

Wow!  Look at that!  The slides, *and* a new web site.  Didn't know that had happened.

Thanks

[JC004]

Wow!  Look at that!  The slides, *and* a new web site.  Didn't know that had happened.

Thanks

It's a front.  They are still the same ol'.  Don't fall for it!  Don't follow the light!

[mikeylikey]

The blue slide was invented to make money for Vanguard.  No reason we could not have just slid on the subdued slides, or pinned rank with a "CAP" cutout.  Makes me sick.  Even worse.......pay $1.40 for the new blue slide, and $7.00 for shipping.  Last time I looked, a padded envelope from USPS, and a shipping ground cost $2.00  WTF?

[chadrm]

I think this is my last question:

What is the official model number / name of the CAP-approved gortex parka?

I'm seeing ECWCS, and "Gen II", and and and...  I'm researching a buy, and I want to be sure I get the right thing.


Thanks,
Chad

[Pylon]

Have to agree here. I think the initial authorization will be more like summer - fall 08

That's pure speculation.  CAP-USAF/CC indicated in an interview that CAP would get the ABU but not until the USAF finishing clothing their folks in it, which is slated for completion in 2011.  We've got a few years to wait.

I think this is my last question:

What is the official model number / name of the CAP-approved gortex parka?

I'm seeing ECWCS, and "Gen II", and and and...  I'm researching a buy, and I want to be sure I get the right thing.


Thanks,
Chad

Gen I, Gen II, etc. refer to "updates" of the parka design, basically.  They are all acceptable for wear, so long as they are the true mil-spec ECWCS Gortex parka.

[MIKE]

I think this is my last question:

What is the official model number / name of the CAP-approved gortex parka?

I'm seeing ECWCS, and "Gen II", and and and...  I'm researching a buy, and I want to be sure I get the right thing.

There isn't one.  They appear to show a Gen. I parka in the ICL, but don't make any specification.  I happen to have a Gen. II parka and trou... It has an NSN just like the Gen. I and the newer generations do.

[Hawk200]

I think this is my last question:

What is the official model number / name of the CAP-approved gortex parka?

I'm seeing ECWCS, and "Gen II", and and and...  I'm researching a buy, and I want to be sure I get the right thing.

As Pylon said, the later numbers are just updates. The Gen I is the original design, a little heavier, designed primarily for use with the Extended Cold Weather Clothing System. That consisted of polypropylene underwear, a fiber pile jacket and bib-style overalls (commonly called the "bear suit", ithe original was brown), and then the Gore-Tex outer. That jacket is most likely going to be the cheapest bet for you.

The Gen II has a hood that is either removeable, or designed to roll up better. It doesn't have the same internal liner that the Gen I had, it's lighter weight, and it's lightweight enough to use as rain jacket without being hot. From what I understand, the Army wants to go with the Gen II so they don't have to issue a separate Gore-Tex and rain jacket. It is more expensive though.

I know the Gen III is out there, but I haven't seen one personally. I wouldn't bother with it, it's like to be worth it's weight in gold, literally. I don't know anything about it's differences from the other two. Probably not worth the money.

[LtCol White]

Have to agree here. I think the initial authorization will be more like summer - fall 08

That's pure speculation.  CAP-USAF/CC indicated in an interview that CAP would get the ABU but not until the USAF finishing clothing their folks in it, which is slated for completion in 2011.  We've got a few years to wait.

I think this is my last question:

What is the official model number / name of the CAP-approved gortex parka?

I'm seeing ECWCS, and "Gen II", and and and...  I'm researching a buy, and I want to be sure I get the right thing.


Thanks,
Chad

Gen I, Gen II, etc. refer to "updates" of the parka design, basically.  They are all acceptable for wear, so long as they are the true mil-spec ECWCS Gortex parka.

Mike, the conversation I had with the individual said that once it was avail in AAFES, they would set the date for CAP. Presently USAF is ahead of sched on these and it will be in MCCS locations Sept/Oct

[chadrm]

What is MCCS?

[jimmydeanno]

^Should be MCSS (Military Clothing Sales Stores)

[LtCol White]

What is MCCS?

Sorry. That was a typo

[mikeylikey]

AAFES online has the ABU parka.  "Air Force Apecs Digital Tiger Jacket
Price...$173.00"  Noticed they changed the position of the rank slide sleeve.  Or you can go with the BDU parka for $153.00  If what I read above is true we could possibly be in the ABU by next JAN? 

[JarakMaldon]

If what I read above is true we could possibly be in the ABU by next JAN?

I wouldn't count on it until official word comes down.  However, I don't think that will stop some high-speeders from running out and getting a set or two from wherever they can, anticipating the day.

They've cleared out space on the shelves at the local MCSS, but no ABUs sit on them yet.  They do have the green boots and all the accessories, though.

[chadrm]

Just to be sure nothing's changed:  civilian CAP members CANNOT use AAFES online, correct?

[mikeylikey]

^ Correct, but you can use the catalog.  Everything online has a catalog number.  Most items are less expensive than vanguard, and they charge less shipping.  You will most likely get the item sooner as well. 

[chadrm]

Paper catalog, or online catalog?  Seems one needs a username/password online.

[MIKE]

Paper catalog... You can get them at MCSS or get some shipped to your unit.  The difficult bit is getting a current printout of the price list.  You also need to "register" and provide your details before they will let you order by phone.

CAP is not authorized to purchase online and must either order by phone or go to the store.

[chadrm]

Thank you, all.

[jimmydeanno]

Just a warning to those of you that can order from aafees.com...they charge you individually for each item you purchase.

So if you order 5 BDU caps there will be 5 individual charges on your bank statement...

[MIKE]

Would it be improper/unlawful for someone who has access to aafes.com to take orders for members who don't?

[mikeylikey]

Just a warning to those of you that can order from aafees.com...they charge you individually for each item you purchase.

So if you order 5 BDU caps there will be 5 individual charges on your bank statement...

Never saw that before.  Possibly backordered items will post to your account when they become available.  I will have to look again now.

[jimmydeanno]

Would it be improper/unlawful for someone who has access to aafes.com to take orders for members who don't?

I don't think it's unlawful/improper to order items that they are eligible to purchase on their own.  I think they would frown on CAP members doing all their shopping on the site, but since we're supposed to have access to the MCSS, ordering uniform items for your squadron members shouldn't be an issue...I do it all the time.

[mikeylikey]

^ As do I.  No reason not too.  I also printed out the numbers of all the MCSS stores in CONUS.  If you find something that is backordered, start at the top of the call list and talk to a store clerk at each location until you find what you are needing.  They will ship it to you the same day from the store in most instances.  In fact, I tell people to call up the store, explain they are in CAP and looking for an item.  They will usually give you less hassle then if you called catalog sales and try to register the first time.

[Hawk200]

Just a warning to those of you that can order from aafees.com...they charge you individually for each item you purchase.

So if you order 5 BDU caps there will be 5 individual charges on your bank statement...

Never saw that before.  Possibly backordered items will post to your account when they become available.  I will have to look again now.

Happens to me every other time I order from them. My bank calls me asking about the charges. They are always suspicious that someone is trying to keep running my card til it's dry.

[mikeylikey]

^  I don't care for that practice on their part then.  I will look over my past orders, and may have to send a nasty gram their way!

[MIKE]

This is off topic, but since we are drifting this way I might as well ask:

Would anyone be interested in contributing to a sticky that would contain the current price list for the AAFES MCSS USAF catalog and instructions for ordering by phone?

[JayT]

The blue slide was invented to make money for Vanguard.  No reason we could not have just slid on the subdued slides, or pinned rank with a "CAP" cutout.  Makes me sick.  Even worse.......pay $1.40 for the new blue slide, and $7.00 for shipping.  Last time I looked, a padded envelope from USPS, and a shipping ground cost $2.00  WTF?

Thats a terrible idea.

[SSgt Rudin]

Okay, I give up, what are the zippers on the arms for? 

[jeders]

Okay, I give up, what are the zippers on the arms for? 

I believe they are so you can remove your arms from the jacket. Why you would want to do that, I don't know.

[arajca]

They are to allow for ventilation and cooling off without removing the jacket.

[afgeo4]

I will stick to the ole proven method of cooling off... removing outer garment. Anyone know if there's anything for rain situations? Poncho? Rain jacket?

[Ned]

I will stick to the ole proven method of cooling off... removing outer garment.

Unless it is raining hard and you are wearing load-bearing equipment, in which case your options are a little more limited.

Ned Lee
(retired infantry guy)

[afgeo4]

I will stick to the ole proven method of cooling off... removing outer garment.

Unless it is raining hard and you are wearing load-bearing equipment, in which case your options are a little more limited.

Ned Lee
(retired infantry guy)

oh I dunno... given the non-combatant nature of our work, I think I could sacrifice a few seconds to stop and remove my vest/suspenders to remove an article of clothing to ensure that I stay cool and dry on the inside (what's the point of wearing rain gear if you're sweating like a pig on the inside?)

[Hawk200]

I will stick to the ole proven method of cooling off... removing outer garment.

Unless it is raining hard and you are wearing load-bearing equipment, in which case your options are a little more limited.

Ned Lee
(retired infantry guy)

oh I dunno... given the non-combatant nature of our work, I think I could sacrifice a few seconds to stop and remove my vest/suspenders to remove an article of clothing to ensure that I stay cool and dry on the inside (what's the point of wearing rain gear if you're sweating like a pig on the inside?)

OK, let me get this straight: You're going to remove an outergarment, in the rain, with the intention of staying dry?

Someone tell me what I'm missing here.

[SSgt Rudin]

I would just like to congratulate Vanguard on yet another quality product; The blank tab for Cadet & SM NCO's is just the right size that if you put a Chief insignia on it it completely covers the A, Senior Master Sergeant fits in the ^ of the A and Master Sergeant comes up to the - in the A. I didn't bother to see if C/Capt of C/Col fit on there, but probably not, since they are supposed to be embroidered, but I guess for now C/Officers have to buy the blank and sew on their rank... hooray Vanguard!

[mikeylikey]

Vanguard Strikes again!  For the millionth time!   YAAAAAAY

[afgeo4]

I will stick to the ole proven method of cooling off... removing outer garment.

Unless it is raining hard and you are wearing load-bearing equipment, in which case your options are a little more limited.

Ned Lee
(retired infantry guy)

oh I dunno... given the non-combatant nature of our work, I think I could sacrifice a few seconds to stop and remove my vest/suspenders to remove an article of clothing to ensure that I stay cool and dry on the inside (what's the point of wearing rain gear if you're sweating like a pig on the inside?)

OK, let me get this straight: You're going to remove an outergarment, in the rain, with the intention of staying dry?

Someone tell me what I'm missing here.

HA HA! No... the intent is to stay cool. The specific outergarment here is the APECS Parka, which is quite warm and not rain gear. There's a goretex rain parka for that.

[afgeo4]

Vanguard Strikes again!  For the millionth time!   YAAAAAAY

You guys notice the Vanguard article in the Volunteer???

We're paying this much money for items that simply don't work for our uniforms so that PA Wing can have a rappelling tower at the Hawk Mtn School, which does not allow ALL members to use it because Hawk Mtn is a selective school.

Other project mentioned was training facility for the Blue Beret activity. Again, an activity that does not allow or admit all members.

Contributions by all shall not constitute benefits for some!

What is this? Colonial America? Taxation without representation stuff? Haven't we gotten over all that?

I was okay with part of profits from Vanguard going back to CAP when it was stated that those profits would go to create Regional Training Centers. If each Region HQ created a training center for all members to use, it would be just fine.

Instead, they decided to dupe the members into thinking that and gave the money to elitist programs to boost up their numbers? I say FOUL!

[mikeylikey]

^ You Sir are totally Correct!  I could not agree more. 

Now if they took the Blue Beret (facility??) and the Hawk Facility and made them the first Regional Training Centers or Facilities, I would have no problem.  But when HAWK Leadership denies the use of Hawk MTN land (which NHQ owns) to CAP SQD's and Groups that wish to train there, I say close the place down!

It is silly to be in business with Vanguard in the first place.  CAP members should be able to get anything for our uniforms ANYWHERE!  I think the whole Vanguard only law was a boost to someone's pocketbook at NHQ.  I would like to see an investigation into it by the GAO!

[afgeo4]

^ You Sir are totally Correct!  I could not agree more. 

Now if they took the Blue Beret (facility??) and the Hawk Facility and made them the first Regional Training Centers or Facilities, I would have no problem.  But when HAWK Leadership denies the use of Hawk MTN land (which NHQ owns) to CAP SQD's and Groups that wish to train there, I say close the place down!

It is silly to be in business with Vanguard in the first place.  CAP members should be able to get anything for our uniforms ANYWHERE!  I think the whole Vanguard only law was a boost to someone's pocketbook at NHQ.  I would like to see an investigation into it by the GAO!

Given the fact that NHQ has the obligation to keep membership costs (specifically uniform costs) down for the members, I think there should be an IG investigation. The membership was not advised before the decision was made to lock it into purchasing items through Vanguard. Vanguard can apparently sell CAP items at lower prices while maintaining the same exact profits. The thing that keeps prices up is their agreement to donate part of profits back to CAP. We, the members apparently don't have a say in this. We also don't have a say in what OUR money gets used for.

We SHOULD have a choice in whether we'd like a part of our expenses donated back to CAP. That way, if we don't like what OUR money is going toward, we will opt out of the donation.

DONATIONS CANNOT BE FORCED!

[Ned]

Given the fact that NHQ has the obligation to keep membership costs (specifically uniform costs) down for the members, I think there should be an IG investigation. The membership was not advised before the decision was made to lock it into purchasing items through Vanguard. Vanguard can apparently sell CAP items at lower prices while maintaining the same exact profits. The thing that keeps prices up is their agreement to donate part of profits back to CAP. We, the members apparently don't have a say in this. We also don't have a say in what OUR money gets used for.

We SHOULD have a choice in whether we'd like a part of our expenses donated back to CAP. That way, if we don't like what OUR money is going toward, we will opt out of the donation.

DONATIONS CANNOT BE FORCED!

George,

There are no Black Helicopters here, or even an evil  conspiracy to deprive you of your hard-earned pennies every time you order a uniform item.


Just a wise and prudent business decision by our volunteer leaders.


Yup, we grant Vanguard the uniform stuff franchise for CAP and in return we get some money back that the NB has chosen to spend on regional training centers.

I grant you that logically means that Vanguard could sell the items at a lower price -- the same per centage that they return to NHQ. 

But the fallacy is in concluding that absent their contract with NHQ, that they would lower their prices. 

We found out the hard way that we could not economically run our own uniform and book supply.  We tried very hard with both the Bookstore and CAPMart.  But even with talented folks trying their best to make a go of it, we consistently lost significant amounts of money.

So, the NB chose to contract through Vanguard, one of the nation's largest uniform stuff suppliers.  As part of the contract, we required that they return a small amount of each purchase to us.

We turned this around from a net loss to a net gain for the corporation.  We no longer have to maintain a warehouse, pay overhead and employee costs, and suffer through member complaints about bad service by our own employees.  (And yes, I understand that some folks don't like the service at Vanguard any better.)

BTW, this is almost a universal arrangement for groups like ours.  I don't know where you live, but here in San Jose, California, if I want to buy Boy Scout equipment, uniforms, or insignia I have to go to the Scout House store in the Council headquarters to buy it.

(They still have great knives and field gear!  Not to mention Pinewood Derby kits.  )

Same for the Girl Scouts, Campfire, the American Red Cross, and every darn parochial school in the area.

And guess who benefits in part from those purchases?  The organization in question.



I'm sorry you don't get to be fully briefed and/or vote on every business decision our leaders make on our behalf.  But if it helps, I don't get to vote on it either.
And it is worth remembering that the "return of a portion of the proceeds to CAP" aspect was well publicised at the time of the change-over.


Finally, it is also worth remembering that our USAF partners include "Faith in the System" as part of their Core Value of Service Before Self.

Faith in the system. To lose faith in the system is to adopt the view that you know better than those above you in the chain of command what should or should not be done. In other words, to lose faith in the system is to place self before service. Leaders can be very influential in this regard: if a leader resists the temptation to doubt `the system', then subordinates may follow suit.

[RiverAux]

To lose faith in the system is to adopt the view that you know better than those above you in the chain of command what should or should not be done.

Just because some one is above me in the CAP chain of command has absolutely no bearing on whether or not they know what should or should not be done.  It is solely a quirk of fate based on who either has the time and wants to be in charge or who didn't want to do it but got talked into it, and internal CAP politics.  Unlike the AF, the CAP chain of command is not a merit-based system.

[Ned]

[Just because some one is above me in the CAP chain of command has absolutely no bearing on whether or not they know what should or should not be done. 

Yeah, those silly Air Force guys probably got it wrong again.  What do they know about leadership and Core Values, anyway?

Unlike the AF, the CAP chain of command is not a merit-based system.

Cuz there are certainly no politics in selection of senior AF commanders, are there?

The great majority of CAP corporate officers are selected after a competitive process, involving review of the members' qualifications, proposed vision for the command, and are required to meet standards of training and experience set out in our regulations.

That -- pretty much by definition -- is a merit-based process.

And not altogether different in concept than what USAF senior commanders go through (minimum standards set by regulation, competitive board makes recommendations, final selection by senior commander).


Sure, there have been some notable problems with the process.  And maybe you or I might have made different selections in some circumstances.

But unilaterally deciding that since you don't like the process prescribed by regs that you therefore don't owe a duty of loyalty and respect  (aka "faith in the system") is a little . . . self-serving, don't you think?


Every USAF airman sitting around the dorm whining about "the brass" would undoubtedly tell you they didn't think their general was selected by a merit-based system, either.

Let's aim a little higher.

[mikeylikey]

The great majority of CAP corporate officers are selected after a competitive process, involving review of the members' qualifications, proposed vision for the command, and are required to meet standards of training and experience set out in our regulations.

I usually agree with what you say, and do so in your previous post, all say the quote above.  I know my Wing Commander is selected based on the idea that the Previous Wing Commander reccomend who should replace him.  Such that, the Vice gets the job, his vice gets the job, his vice gets the job etc.  It has been that way for 15 years, maybe more.  I also am able to see that Region Commanders are selected based on what support they throw the way of the National Commander.  We will have to wait and see how Courter either does the same, or goes against 20 years of such practice.

Commands at all levels are political appointees.  There can be no other way of looking at it.  However, I will concede that there may be a few who actually are appointed based on qualifications, but that is not the normal procedure.

[MIKE]

Drift terminated.