In the event of a war: Does CAP play any role?

[Starbird]

Needless to say, we will never actually be dropping hand bombs out of planes onto submarines again, but based on all of the tension in the world right now, I think it would be interesting to explore why CAP's function would be if, god forbid, a war were to break out that involved the United States.  As the Air Force AUX, would we take on a minor homeland support role, such helping with logistics? (We do have a massive fleet of vans), or something of the sort?  Prehaps helping to recruit for the Air Force?  Who knows, but I think it would be interesting to discuss.

Starhop

[abdsp51]

You are aware that there is currently and active war going on right?  On a techinicality 2 wars. 

[Starbird]

You are aware that there is currently and active war going on right?  On a techinicality 2 wars.

To clarify, I was thinking more of a larger, declared war.  Afghanistan and Iraq are not declared wars.

[sarmed1]

I would like to think that the easy answer is NO.  There are a huge number of reserve forces available for recall to active duty that could pick up slack in any areas that the military finds itself short on as far as actual primary mission requirements.  (technically every retired guy is in the retired reserve, and eligible for recall up until a certain point, certain specialty areas are even told, that you have a high chance of recall after "official" retirement)

One area that CAP could (very maybe) see in increased request for assistance to is domestic DoD support.  As DoD assets are used for their military mission they are less available to help with things like natural disasters (aka the national guard)  We saw this with the increase in NG units deployed to Afghanistan, specifically in FL.  One particular NG unit was supporting FLEMA post hurricane recon mission, (basically boots on the ground, in organic vehicles doing on site damage assessment, and communicating those reports and photo's directly back to the state EOC)  As that unit became deployed more, the mission went to other NG units, as those units increased their ops tempo they asked CAP if they could increase their personnel from air and C&C to comms, to actually just taking over the whole mission.  Think the same thing for other places where, in particular NG units, support local emergencies, as an instrumentality of the USAF, CAP could be asked to step up to support some of those needs.

That's likely the easy most likely scenario.  As far as the discussion there are some wide ranging ideas that could be discussed, mostly academic.  .  In that the reality of being able to come up with the capability to support a mission not already part of the "expectations"  would likely involve more time and money in developing the "plan" than the length of the "crisis" it would be solving.   (our government tends to be reactive to a crisis rather than proactive) The logical person in me says that's exactly why there should be such brain storming, so that when the "thing" happens, you just dust off the plan that has been sitting being minimally maintained, tweak it and you are ready to go in say less than 15 days...but the practical me, says that despite numerous examples out there available, no one in government often thinks this way.

MK

[abdsp51]

You are aware that there is currently and active war going on right?  On a techinicality 2 wars.

To clarify, I was thinking more of a larger, declared war.  Afghanistan and Iraq are not declared wars.

Afghanistan is part of the declared Global War on Terror.  Plus the Korean War is still ongoing as there was never a treaty signed between the nations involved. 

[darkmatter]

Isint there a CAP-USAF reg somewhere that allows in times of war the air force can pull CAP members into service and commission them one grade lower than the grade they hold in CAP?

[sarmed1]

Isint there a CAP-USAF reg somewhere that allows in times of war the air force can pull CAP members into service and commission them one grade lower than the grade they hold in CAP?

I am not a master of the all the reg ins and outs, but I don't think I have ever seen that anywhere.  It would be interesting if it actually existed somewhere (even as a now rescinded capability, just from a historical/curiosity standpoint)

MK

[FW]

Isint there a CAP-USAF reg somewhere that allows in times of war the air force can pull CAP members into service and commission them one grade lower than the grade they hold in CAP?

I am not a master of the all the reg ins and outs, but I don't think I have ever seen that anywhere.  It would be interesting if it actually existed somewhere (even as a now rescinded capability, just from a historical/curiosity standpoint)

MK

Interesting thought, however the answer is NO!!!!!!  Civil Air Patrol and it's members are NOT a part of the military in any way, shape or form.  We do serve as a "Civilian Auxiliary" when the SECAF authorizes us, but that is a far cry from pressing us into service.  That said, expanding our current efforts might be a possibility in the 6 or 7 minutes before the first bombs hit our cities...

[sarmed1]

Isint there a CAP-USAF reg somewhere that allows in times of war the air force can pull CAP members into service and commission them one grade lower than the grade they hold in CAP?

I am not a master of the all the reg ins and outs, but I don't think I have ever seen that anywhere.  It would be interesting if it actually existed somewhere (even as a now rescinded capability, just from a historical/curiosity standpoint)

MK

Interesting thought, however the answer is NO!!!!!!  Civil Air Patrol and it's members are NOT a part of the military in any way, shape or form.  We do serve as a "Civilian Auxiliary" when the SECAF authorizes us, but that is a far cry from pressing us into service.  That said, expanding our current efforts might be a possibility in the 6 or 7 minutes before the first bombs hit our cities...

Though the options are wide and varied, I am guessing the OP was thinking something of a conventional nature that would involve a depletion of available domestic military forces. 
From an abstract discussion stand point, firstly I don't believe we would ever be that over committed, we still have many coalition and treaty partners that we wouldn't be dumping all available resources into an all out conflict, at least one that had the likelihood of remaining a conventional weapons battle space.  Secondly-We have established the effectiveness of unit rotations in an out to the conflict space over the years with Iraq and Afghanistan to believe that unless facing a multi front large scale conflict that seems to be the model to follow.  Third-Selective service:  we still register, the ability to bring folks in and train them is not complex, there are (if I recall correctly) abbreviated training cycles for both basic and technical training of military personnel during time of war.  Fourth- Many states have dedicated SDF's, that fall under the NG bureau that can be "activated" for state duty in the absence of the availability of the states national guard forces. That puts CAP at something like 5th tier at least, and likely only for a limited amount of time (ie until you complete 2-3 training cycles of "newly minted" military recruits that can take over)

Difficulties to this idea:  a-a large percentage of CAP's personnel are either under 18 or between 18-45, thus subject to military service.  b-Unless there was some plan in place to compensate them, they still have jobs and family obligations that would be prohibitive to even a short term (less than 30 days) "activation and deployment" to needed areas. (not to mention that if every other employee is getting conscripted or recalled, your boss is not likely to let you have time off for CAP time, even if you have the vacation time available)

So the most important question:  If as a group CAP wants to be proactive and offer this up as a force multiplier option to the DoD/USAF,  what missions does CAP do now, that with little to no modification, can be offered to DoD.  And what modifications to those missions should CAP begin to change/modify its work process to be able to meet that need if called upon (in particular that no other agency in the DoD reach can perform)

an interesting discussion topic, even if very (very) low on the likelihood of actually ever happening

MK

[TheSkyHornet]

You are aware that there is currently and active war going on right?  On a techinicality 2 wars.

To clarify, I was thinking more of a larger, declared war.  Afghanistan and Iraq are not declared wars.

They are declared wars. Congress authorized military operations and the expenditures to fund them. That's part of the Article 1, Section 8 process in the Constitution.

The President/SecDef/SecAF could utilize CAP to provide a defensive/Homeland Security role in the event of a military conflict near or on U.S. soil/airspace/coastal waters. It's not impossible nor unfeasible. It's just a matter of "would it happen?" It really depends on what role the DoD would want CAP to operate under.

[etodd]

More interesting would be a war here on the mainland. An actual invasion. I imagine most civilian CAP members who have arms at homes, would be barricading their families with rifles pointed outside. Not many would be showing up even if CAP were to call. Family security would come first.

Same with the next civil war.

In either of those cases, CAP's only involvement may be a few rogue CAP pilots grabbing planes with full fuel for kamikaze flights into the enemy. LOL

[NIN]

Having been in Civil Air Patrol during the US's armed conflicts (declared or otherwise) since 1981, I can really suggest that the answer to this is "somewhere between zero and none," or at least definitely nothing outside a domestic support role.

That said, I have seen it, but it is when the National Guard asked CAP for chaplain support for a unit's return home event. Our wing chaplain at the time went and basically did everything an active duty/National Guard chaplain would do in the same kind of event.

That was pretty much the only time I've seen a CAP member "fill in" for a service member in a capacity like that.

[Eclipse]

((*cough*))...VSAF...((*cough*))

[etodd]

((*cough*))...VSAF...((*cough*))

It even has a brochure, albeit 2008:

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/VSAF_007132D493071.pdf

[etodd]

I would also say that in a small way the Syracuse Chase Mission works in that manner. Instead of tying up Air Force planes and pilots over the last 2 (?) years, CAP MPs and MOs have stepped in to fill those roles.

[RiverAux]

Well, seeing as how the AF can only use CAP in noncombat programs and missions (per 10USC Sec 9442 and 36USC Sec 40202), we will most definitely not be serving in any combat capacity.  However, that does leave open a whole lot of other activities.  SECAF could ship us off to Bagram AFB to peel potatoes if he wanted to cut back on contractor expenses. 

But, really, there is not likely to be any need now or in the future.  If the AF needs manpower, they are not going to turn to the mostly "seasoned" senior members of CAP, but rather just draft in some 18 year olds. 

However, until such a day comes, I have always thought that there are more ways that the AF could use CAP to provide direct support here at home, though it will never be a major CAP program since the distribution of AF bases ensures that only a small fraction of CAP members are in the right location to help, even if asked.  But, if we include the Air National Guard, then there is some more potential for use of CAP members. 

I don't know how far the CAPTalk archives go these days, but we had a few good threads on the subject, though I was one of the few promoting such ideas way back when.  Now, my CAP attitude is such that even if the opportunity arose locally, I'm not even sure that I would participate. 

[Mitchell 1969]

Remember those WWII movies, when the partisans killed some occupying troops, and they rounded up 10 villagers for each soldier who was killed, and shot them in the town square?

CAP members could find themselves being mourned in the town square.

Other than that, probably no direct wartime role.


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[PHall]

You are aware that there is currently and active war going on right?  On a techinicality 2 wars.

To clarify, I was thinking more of a larger, declared war.  Afghanistan and Iraq are not declared wars.

Afghanistan is part of the declared Global War on Terror.  Plus the Korean War is still ongoing as there was never a treaty signed between the nations involved.

The last time the United States fought in a declared war was World War II. For a war to be a declared war congress has to pass a bill declaring war.
That hasn't happened since December 1941.

[skyhawkcdr]

Just think of the CAP roll in "RED DAWN"...Hey we can dream right???

[PHall]

Just think of the CAP roll in "RED DAWN"...Hey we can dream right???

You mean get rounded up with the rest of the police and paramilitary types?

[NIN]

Just think of the CAP roll in "RED DAWN"...Hey we can dream right???

You mean get rounded up with the rest of the police and paramilitary types?

"A member of an elite paramilitary unit.. Blue beret!"

[Nick]

SECAF could ship us off to Bagram AB to peel potatoes if she wanted to cut back on contractor expenses.

FTFY. I think there's some caveat in there that the noncombatant support also needs to remain in the United States since we are not government employees, but I may have imagined that.

The much more realistic scenario is that CAP is tasked to augment national guards, alongside state defense forces or in place of them where they do not exist, and reserve units in noncombatant/support roles to backfill positions that are vacated once the reserve component is mobilized. Like the Florida example earlier, you could easily use CAP members to handle admin, logistics, and force support (services/MWR) functions... the most reasonable capacities are ones that don't require a clearance, which unfortunately precludes comm and cyber. You could possibly also draw in the professional fields (doctors and lawyers), but those would require some spin-up work (for example, you don't go from family practice doctor to flight surgeon overnight) that may not be worth the trouble. And don't forget chaplains are already on the hook to be tasked to augment the military chaplain corps.

Interestingly, I don't believe backfilling Title 32 national guard units would require an AFAM; it could be done in a corporate status as a request from the state government to CAP. So while all 20 members of the New Hampshire National Guard are mobilized to Title 10 status and sent off to war, CAP could go backfill at home to keep the lights on, pipes from freezing, and be available to bring out the 5-tons to get through the snow. Or whatever it is they do in New Hampshire.

As for VSAF... yeah. How about those uniforms, eh?


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[FW]

As entertaining as this thread is, I can, with 100% certainty, say that there is no way on earth the SECAF will ship us anywhere we don't want to go.  CAP Inc. may be tasked with an expanded roll, however individual members will have absolutely no obligation to deal with it; just like with our current mission "load".  Have a Happy New Year everyone. 

[etodd]

As entertaining as this thread is, I can, with 100% certainty, say that there is no way on earth the SECAF will ship us anywhere we don't want to go.  CAP Inc. may be tasked with an expanded roll, however individual members will have absolutely no obligation to deal with it; just like with our current mission "load".  Have a Happy New Year everyone.

As I said on page one ... When the situation is dire enough that the AF might even remember we are here, when there is no one left to draft, fighting in the streets, whether invasion or civil war ..... CAP members will be too busy defending their families and homes to show up if CAP called. We are civilians first and foremost. Reminds me, I need to stock a few more hundred rounds.

[abdsp51]

As entertaining as this thread is, I can, with 100% certainty, say that there is no way on earth the SECAF will ship us anywhere we don't want to go.  CAP Inc. may be tasked with an expanded roll, however individual members will have absolutely no obligation to deal with it; just like with our current mission "load".  Have a Happy New Year everyone.

As I said on page one ... When the situation is dire enough that the AF might even remember we are here, when there is no one left to draft, fighting in the streets, whether invasion or civil war ..... CAP members will be too busy defending their families and homes to show up if CAP called. We are civilians first and foremost. Reminds me, I need to stock a few more hundred rounds.

You seem to forget that there is pool of bodies that can be tapped into in the event of some conflict of extreme magnitude.  CAP won't be called upon. 

[etodd]

As entertaining as this thread is, I can, with 100% certainty, say that there is no way on earth the SECAF will ship us anywhere we don't want to go.  CAP Inc. may be tasked with an expanded roll, however individual members will have absolutely no obligation to deal with it; just like with our current mission "load".  Have a Happy New Year everyone.

As I said on page one ... When the situation is dire enough that the AF might even remember we are here, when there is no one left to draft, fighting in the streets, whether invasion or civil war ..... CAP members will be too busy defending their families and homes to show up if CAP called. We are civilians first and foremost. Reminds me, I need to stock a few more hundred rounds.

You seem to forget that there is pool of bodies that can be tapped into in the event of some conflict of extreme magnitude.  CAP won't be called upon.

No, I think that is what I was saying as well. I mentioned the draft, for example. I agreed with you, in that in the extreme, CAP members will be scattered to the hills. CAP would not even be in anyone's mind.

[abdsp51]

As entertaining as this thread is, I can, with 100% certainty, say that there is no way on earth the SECAF will ship us anywhere we don't want to go.  CAP Inc. may be tasked with an expanded roll, however individual members will have absolutely no obligation to deal with it; just like with our current mission "load".  Have a Happy New Year everyone.

As I said on page one ... When the situation is dire enough that the AF might even remember we are here, when there is no one left to draft, fighting in the streets, whether invasion or civil war ..... CAP members will be too busy defending their families and homes to show up if CAP called. We are civilians first and foremost. Reminds me, I need to stock a few more hundred rounds.

You seem to forget that there is pool of bodies that can be tapped into in the event of some conflict of extreme magnitude.  CAP won't be called upon.

No, I think that is what I was saying as well. I mentioned the draft, for example. I agreed with you, in that in the extreme, CAP members will be scattered to the hills. CAP would not even be in anyone's mind.

You are aware the draft doesn't exist anymore right? 

[Spam]

"There was one?"   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYodLUtySHk

Cheers,
Spam

[abdsp51]

"There was one?"   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYodLUtySHk

Cheers,
Spam

LOL.  Yes there was one but it died out decades ago.  Nethereless there is a pool of bodies that the DOD can tap into for manning in the event the need arises.

[NIN]

LOL.  Yes there was one but it died out decades ago.  Nethereless there is a pool of bodies that the DOD can tap into for manning in the event the need arises.

Yep. The National Guard and the Reserves.

[abdsp51]

LOL.  Yes there was one but it died out decades ago.  Nevertheless there is a pool of bodies that the DOD can tap into for manning in the event the need arises.

Yep. The National Guard and the Reserves.

There are also retirees and the IRR.  All would be tapped long before CAP would even if it was considered at all.

[NIN]

There are also retirees and the IRR.  All would be tapped long before CAP would even if it was considered at all.

Totally forgot about the IRR. I know plenty of people who got IRR'd back in during the first Gulf War.  "What's happening, Peter? Yeah, I know you've been out of the Corps for 2 years and have been working that gigantic surfer dude mane, but, uh, yeah, we're gonna need to you report to Camp Pendleton on Saturday.. Yeahhh."

[Eclipse]

Tapped for what? 

Actual combat action?  Agreed, no.

But Civil Defense Homeland Security stuff? That's where CAP was born.

CAP would be right back in the thick of things flying coastal patrols, overland transport,
etc., etc.

All the stuff George Bailey did while Harry was off flying.

That presupposes a global "real" war vs. the skirmishes the US has been mired in since the 90's.

[etodd]

You are aware the draft doesn't exist anymore right?

I was talking of dire circumstances like an actual invasion. Watch how quick the draft would be invoked again.

Hoping it never happens.

Watching Iran .... gov't turning off the Internet so they can squash the citizens without eyes watching. I hope our youth here pays attention.

[abdsp51]

You are aware the draft doesn't exist anymore right?

I was talking of dire circumstances like an actual invasion. Watch how quick the draft would be invoked again.

Hoping it never happens.

Watching Iran .... gov't turning off the Internet so they can squash the citizens without eyes watching. I hope our youth here pays attention.

Um again the draft would not be invoked even in your fantasy scenario.  There are plenty of pools for manpower, have you not been reading anything or just trying to cause drama? 

There are very few countries who could even remotely think about invading the US and then that's a huge day dream.  No country has the moxie to even think about much less put together a plan to invade the US.

You realize Iran is does the same thing that China and North Korea do to keep their populations in check right? 

[etodd]

You are aware the draft doesn't exist anymore right?

I was talking of dire circumstances like an actual invasion. Watch how quick the draft would be invoked again.

Hoping it never happens.

Watching Iran .... gov't turning off the Internet so they can squash the citizens without eyes watching. I hope our youth here pays attention.

Um again the draft would not be invoked even in your fantasy scenario.  There are plenty of pools for manpower, have you not been reading anything or just trying to cause drama? 

There are very few countries who could even remotely think about invading the US and then that's a huge day dream.  No country has the moxie to even think about much less put together a plan to invade the US.

You realize Iran is does the same thing that China and North Korea do to keep their populations in check right?

yes, yes, and yes.

This whole thread is about silly scenarios from the start. LOL

No conventional war on the mainland ... at first.

When Kim's big one explodes high over our country and knocks out power and so much infrastructure ... it'll be every man for himself.  Thats when China and/or Russia could waltz in.

Deterence is our only hope. I'm not sure we could come out well after one goes off above us.

[abdsp51]

You are aware the draft doesn't exist anymore right?

I was talking of dire circumstances like an actual invasion. Watch how quick the draft would be invoked again.

Hoping it never happens.

Watching Iran .... gov't turning off the Internet so they can squash the citizens without eyes watching. I hope our youth here pays attention.

Um again the draft would not be invoked even in your fantasy scenario.  There are plenty of pools for manpower, have you not been reading anything or just trying to cause drama? 

There are very few countries who could even remotely think about invading the US and then that's a huge day dream.  No country has the moxie to even think about much less put together a plan to invade the US.

You realize Iran is does the same thing that China and North Korea do to keep their populations in check right?

yes, yes, and yes.

This whole thread is about silly scenarios from the start. LOL

No conventional war on the mainland ... at first.

When Kim's big one explodes high over our country and knocks out power and so much infrastructure ... it'll be every man for himself.  Thats when China and/or Russia could waltz in.

Deterence is our only hope. I'm not sure we could come out well after one goes off above us.

Keep dreaming.  Neither of those 2 would come waltzing in.  In the event Kim launched something his days are number and neither China or Russia will aid him.  I think you need to put the bottle down and get some air.

[etodd]

You are aware the draft doesn't exist anymore right?

I was talking of dire circumstances like an actual invasion. Watch how quick the draft would be invoked again.

Hoping it never happens.

Watching Iran .... gov't turning off the Internet so they can squash the citizens without eyes watching. I hope our youth here pays attention.

Um again the draft would not be invoked even in your fantasy scenario.  There are plenty of pools for manpower, have you not been reading anything or just trying to cause drama? 

There are very few countries who could even remotely think about invading the US and then that's a huge day dream.  No country has the moxie to even think about much less put together a plan to invade the US.

You realize Iran is does the same thing that China and North Korea do to keep their populations in check right?

yes, yes, and yes.

This whole thread is about silly scenarios from the start. LOL

No conventional war on the mainland ... at first.

When Kim's big one explodes high over our country and knocks out power and so much infrastructure ... it'll be every man for himself.  Thats when China and/or Russia could waltz in.

Deterence is our only hope. I'm not sure we could come out well after one goes off above us.

Keep dreaming.  Neither of those 2 would come waltzing in.  In the event Kim launched something his days are number and neither China or Russia will aid him.  I think you need to put the bottle down and get some air.

Funny guy. You still don't realize I've agreed with everything you've said. And as I said, this whole thread is just silly talk. Nothing here would ever materialize, no matter what type of situation. Its all just in fun.

If we ever had war on our land ... no one would be wearing a CAP uniform. As I said, it would be family first.

Although I have seen a few CAP military wannabes who might would put that uniform on and drive to a AF base and say "here I am". 

[PHall]

You are aware the draft doesn't exist anymore right?

I was talking of dire circumstances like an actual invasion. Watch how quick the draft would be invoked again.

Hoping it never happens.

Watching Iran .... gov't turning off the Internet so they can squash the citizens without eyes watching. I hope our youth here pays attention.

Um again the draft would not be invoked even in your fantasy scenario.  There are plenty of pools for manpower, have you not been reading anything or just trying to cause drama? 

There are very few countries who could even remotely think about invading the US and then that's a huge day dream.  No country has the moxie to even think about much less put together a plan to invade the US.

You realize Iran is does the same thing that China and North Korea do to keep their populations in check right?

yes, yes, and yes.

This whole thread is about silly scenarios from the start. LOL

No conventional war on the mainland ... at first.

When Kim's big one explodes high over our country and knocks out power and so much infrastructure ... it'll be every man for himself.  Thats when China and/or Russia could waltz in.

Deterence is our only hope. I'm not sure we could come out well after one goes off above us.

Keep dreaming.  Neither of those 2 would come waltzing in.  In the event Kim launched something his days are number and neither China or Russia will aid him.  I think you need to put the bottle down and get some air.

Funny guy. You still don't realize I've agreed with everything you've said. And as I said, this whole thread is just silly talk. Nothing here would ever materialize, no matter what type of situation. Its all just in fun.

If we ever had war on our land ... no one would be wearing a CAP uniform. As I said, it would be family first.

Although I have seen a few CAP military wannabes who might would put that uniform on and drive to a AF base and say "here I am". 

Hey, they might get lucky, AAFES might be hiring that day!

[docsteve]

In New York State, there is some kind of connection between CAP and the Dept. of Homeland Security and Emergency Services. 

I have seen uniformed CAP personnel in the State Emergency Operations Center (which is several stories underground and protected by blast doors, so we call it "the bunker"); also, when I was staffing the radio room for the Office of Interoperable and Emergency Communications during Superstorm Sandy, I was relieved one morning by a CAP Lt. Col. (in uniform) from -- I seem to recall -- Syracuse.

This would appear to be the type of role CAP would continue to play in any disaster situation, war or otherwise. 

For the FEMA-oriented folks, my understanding is that CAP comes-in through ESF-1.

Steve

[Eclipse]

Many (most?) wings have seats in the state's EOC, some out of necessity, some out of courtesy, but
you shouldn't infer from that any "special" or "different" role that any other CAP mission.

Before there's a mission number, personnel go and watch quietly, or advise if asked.  Once there's
a mission, they act as liaison.

Beyond that it depends on the incident, and certainly a uniformed CAP member should not be
reliving anyone unless they are there under the auspices of the NOC via a mission number,
which post-Sandy was likely the case.

[NIN]

Beyond that it depends on the incident, and certainly a uniformed CAP member should not be
reliving anyone unless they are there under the auspices of the NOC via a mission number,
which post-Sandy was likely the case.

Interestingly, there are a people who do things like that in the FEMA ROCs. IIRC, qualified CAP officers have served as duty officers there.

[isuhawkeye]

In the Late 90's and early 2000's CAP still conducted some training on the concepts that would pull CAP into direct support of a military operation.  This text is taken from a 2004 Mission Aircrew training manual. 

1.4.1 The Wartime Mission
CAP OPLAN 1000 provides for CAP support to the National Command Authorities (NCA) in a declared national emergency operation — in other words, war. The CAP would supplement the military defense with a civil defense for the protection of life and property in the event of an attack on the U.S. Specifically, the CAP would:
• Provide a communications network (fixed, mobile, and airborne).
• Provide assessment of damage to highways and facilities.
• Support State and Regional Disaster Airlift (SARDA).
• Provide radiological monitoring and decontamination teams.
Command and control during these operations remains within the CAP chain of command at all times. Although operational control of a particular mission may rest with another agency, CAP directives apply to CAP resources.
A national emergency may also invoke the Security Control of Air Traffic and Air Navigation Aids (SCATANA) plan. The purpose of this plan is to provide security control of civil and military air traffic, navigational aids, and airspace use. It may involve the use of military interceptors, directed dispersal, landing, or grounding of aircraft, shutdown of navigational aids, or IFR-only operations.
Mission records are to be kept for seven years and reimbursement for fuel, oil, and maintenance is IAW CAPR 173-3, Payment for Civil Air Patrol Support./quote]

The key documents to research are the

OPLAN 1000
SCANTANA (Security Control of Air Traffic and Air Navigation Aids)

Happy Hunting. 

 

[AlphaSigOU]

SCATANA was invoked once in a real-world situation: 9/11.

[Nick]

For the FEMA-oriented folks, my understanding is that CAP comes-in through ESF-1.

Steve

Depends on the mission. In these parts, CAP has been anchored on ESF 9 for the hurricane and flooding DR missions over the past few years as an extension of the FEMA US&R folks. Next week the FCO may decide CAPabilities fit better in another ESF for a different type of mission.


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[docsteve]

For the FEMA-oriented folks, my understanding is that CAP comes-in through ESF-1.

Steve

Depends on the mission. In these parts, CAP has been anchored on ESF 9 for the hurricane and flooding DR missions over the past few years as an extension of the FEMA US&R folks. Next week the FCO may decide CAPabilities fit better in another ESF for a different type of mission.


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We do that differently in NYS: an organization is permanently assigned to one (or more) ESFs, and if those resources are needed for any other ESF then multiple ESFs are activated, but the organization itself does not change ESFs.


The NYS EOC was just activated (for the east coast snow storm), so I will probably be there today (ESF 6)

[Holding Pattern]

It is worth noting for those interested that there is a FEMA IS course for each of the ESFs, though they aren't CE/CEU approved. Still worth doing.

[Holding Pattern]

SCATANA was invoked once in a real-world situation: 9/11.

[DOD PROCEDURAL NOTAM] EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY. SCATANA HAS NOT BEEN IMPLEMENTED, HOWEVER, DOD AIRCREWS WILL FOLLOW SCATANA PROCEDURES FOR FILING FLIGHT PLANS IN ORDER TO GAIN DEPARTURE APPROVAL. REPEAT: SCATANA HAS NOT BEEN IMPLEMENTED. 11 SEP 18:18 UNTIL 11 OCT 23:59

[sarmed1]

SCATANA was invoked once in a real-world situation: 9/11.

[DOD PROCEDURAL NOTAM] EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY. SCATANA HAS NOT BEEN IMPLEMENTED, HOWEVER, DOD AIRCREWS WILL FOLLOW SCATANA PROCEDURES FOR FILING FLIGHT PLANS IN ORDER TO GAIN DEPARTURE APPROVAL. REPEAT: SCATANA HAS NOT BEEN IMPLEMENTED. 11 SEP 18:18 UNTIL 11 OCT 23:59

I was working for an EMS helicopter agency, and we had to submit Tail number, crew names and flight departure, destination and return destination with anticipated flight path for each mission request and wait for approval before launch.

MK

[Elihu.Lowery]

Only during WW3, and only if that was going very poorly. But we would be limited to children, the elderly and the infirm every able body healthy person would already be drafted if things are going that bad. We would also have to compete with the State Defense Forces/State Guard groups, and U.S. Coast Guard Aux for a ever smaller pool of recruits.

As far as missions in sure we would most likely be going back to our roots and taking over what use to be known as Civil Defense functions.

[stillamarine]

Only during WW3, and only if that was going very poorly. But we would be limited to children, the elderly and the infirm every able body healthy person would already be drafted if things are going that bad. We would also have to compete with the State Defense Forces/State Guard groups, and U.S. Coast Guard Aux for a ever smaller pool of recruits.

As far as missions in sure we would most likely be going back to our roots and taking over what use to be known as Civil Defense functions.

Not necessarily. You have quite a few people that would not be eligible for normal military service. Or like me. I'm a disabled veteran but I'm not infirm. The military will not take me back. I've asked. I'd be surprised even in a WW3 status they would take me back. We do not have a SDF. There are plenty of areas within CAP that I would be able to contribute easily.

[etodd]

Only during WW3, .....

I don't WWIII will see huge numbers drafted or otherwise. It'll be Kim shooting off nuclear weapons and then everyone will fire theirs. None of us will even think about CAP. We'll all be bunkered down with our families. How much food and water do folks have stashed away?

[abdsp51]

The likelyhood of Kim Il Jung firing anything is slim to nil...  And even if there was a WWIII there wouldn't be draft. 

Ya'll need to put the copies of Red Dawn and other nonsense away.

[Luis R. Ramos]

How much water and food do YOU have stashed away?

Myself, not enough for even a week. Try to keep a water reserve of three gallons but cannot achieve it...

[CAPLTC]

as Civil Defense functions.

That's now termed
Homeland Defense
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeland_defense
and
Defense Support of Civil Authorities...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Support_of_Civil_authorities

[Nick]

Not really. Civil Defense (as associated with the original Office of Civilian Defense/Federal Civil Defense Administration) = Homeland Security & Emergency Management. Separate of and not equivalent to Homeland Defense and DSCA, which are military functions.


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[CAPLTC]

Not really. Civil Defense (as associated with the original Office of Civilian Defense/Federal Civil Defense Administration) = Homeland Security & Emergency Management. Separate of and not equivalent to Homeland Defense and DSCA, which are military functions.

Depends upon your state hombre...
At the Federal level my statement is correct.
Homeland Defense
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeland_defense
and
Defense Support of Civil Authorities...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Support_of_Civil_authorities

[Nick]

[edit: sorry, I'm just repeating myself and I already know it's not going to have any effect, so I withdraw my comment]

[etodd]

[edit: sorry, I'm just repeating myself and I already know it's not going to have any effect, so I withdraw my comment]

Yep.  This thread is a dead end. The reality is that we have to go down the call list to get someone to take a mission now.  If a war starts inside our borders, few if any would answer the phone, if CAP was to call ... which they would not. LOL

[CAPLTC]

Yep.  This thread is a dead end. The reality is that we have to go down the call list to get someone to take a mission now.  If a war starts inside our borders, few if any would answer the phone, if CAP was to call ... which they would not. LOL

The USAF pays for all those airplanes and would absolutely use them, one way or another, in the event of a major conflict.
That doesn't mean CAP will be dropping bombs off the coast...
Plenty of DSCA and HD tasks would need to be performed, that are non-kinetic, that do not demand Title-X authority.

[RiverAux]

As long as we're getting crazy, all that would have to happen would be to have the state draft CAP members into the state militia and then they could do anything with us that they want.  However, the sticking point may be actual ownership of CAP equipment and aircraft since that belongs with a corporation and not the state.  I'd think they could draft us but not our equipment.  Unless there is some clause hidden somewhere in various contracts that lets the AF take back any equipment they paid for. 

[FW]

Major assets of CAP; Aircraft and Vehicles are considered to be property of the USAF even though titled to CAP, Inc.  In time of war, the government could "press into service" private property and individuals according to the "will of congress" in the declaration act. (we will assume that congress actually declared war).  Most likely it will not matter, as this type of war will only last a few hours and nothing will be left to take...

[stillamarine]

Not every state has a militia. I'm going to count the NG because in the event of something like this happening the NG will be federalized.

[PHall]

You guys are assuming that the next war won't be over in about 4 to 6 hours or so.

[etodd]

You guys are assuming that the next war won't be over in about 4 to 6 hours or so.

Bingo.   You win the thread.    LOL

[RiverAux]

Not every state has a militia. I'm going to count the NG because in the event of something like this happening the NG will be federalized.

Every state has some sort of law allowing them to draft people into the state militia, or at least places men of certain ages (varies) into the "unorganized militia".  This is different from State Defense Forces. 

[abdsp51]

Not every state has a militia. I'm going to count the NG because in the event of something like this happening the NG will be federalized.

Every state has some sort of law allowing them to draft people into the state militia, or at least places men of certain ages (varies) into the "unorganized militia".  This is different from State Defense Forces.

Sure about that?

[stillamarine]

Not every state has a militia. I'm going to count the NG because in the event of something like this happening the NG will be federalized.

Every state has some sort of law allowing them to draft people into the state militia, or at least places men of certain ages (varies) into the "unorganized militia".  This is different from State Defense Forces.

Cite?

[etodd]

Some of these folks seem to be salivating over the idea of somehow getting drafted into some kind of wartime service.  Some collars may have been overly starched and cutting off blood to the brain.

Dream all you want, but its never going to happen.

What are the ages of the MPs in CAP? Are the majority of us well over 55? Maybe even well over 60?

[PHall]

Not every state has a militia. I'm going to count the NG because in the event of something like this happening the NG will be federalized.

Every state has some sort of law allowing them to draft people into the state militia, or at least places men of certain ages (varies) into the "unorganized militia".  This is different from State Defense Forces.

That's a pretty bold statement. Now either back it up or take it back.

[Mitchell 1969]

Not every state has a militia. I'm going to count the NG because in the event of something like this happening the NG will be federalized.

Every state has some sort of law allowing them to draft people into the state militia, or at least places men of certain ages (varies) into the "unorganized militia".  This is different from State Defense Forces.

That's a pretty bold statement. Now either back it up or take it back.

I know I was a member of "the militia" in California until I turned 45, under the Military and Veteran's Code. I never wore a uniform, never received an ID card, never took an oath and never attended a meeting, but, technically, I "served." I think other states have similar arrangements. Also, I was, under the Militia Act of 1903, a member of the "unorganized militia" component of the "Militia of the United States."


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[Holding Pattern]

Not every state has a militia. I'm going to count the NG because in the event of something like this happening the NG will be federalized.

Every state has some sort of law allowing them to draft people into the state militia, or at least places men of certain ages (varies) into the "unorganized militia".  This is different from State Defense Forces.

That's a pretty bold statement. Now either back it up or take it back.

Nothing bold about it.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

[abdsp51]

Nothing bold about it.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

Refers to the US National Guard, not a state militia as was referenced. It's a bold statement due to that in the event there was a conflict that required a major upping in manpower the regular componets will get the bodies before the reserves and the guard. 

I checked Ca code and see nothing there about being drafted into the SDF there.  Which ironically being a member of the SDF doesn't exempt from being "drafted" into the US military.

So therefore the challenge remains to cite that one can be drafted into a state military force.

[Ned]

So therefore the challenge remains to cite that one can be drafted into a state military force.

I love a legal challenge, but this one is not too tricky.

In California, at least.  California Military and Veterans Code section 122 defines the militia in language very similar to that in the US Code, all able bodied males between 18 & 45.

Section 123 provides that the governor may order the "enrollment" of the militia.

Section 128 says that the milita may be ordered into active service for wars, insurrections, etc..

And section 129 (specifically using the word "drafted") points out that persons who are called up and fail to appear within 24 hours are "deserters" and may be dealt with according to the Articles of War.  (Which sounds like a Bad Thing for deserters.

Obviously, state laws will vary on this, but in California it is fairly clear that all able bodied men in the right age range can be drafted into active militia service and sent to war.

You might want to check your own state laws to see if you might already be a member of your state militia, subject to the draft.

Ned Lee
COL, (CA), Infantry
Member, Militia of the Great State of California

(Currently in Ottumwa, Iowa on my phone or I would post the links)

[NCRblues]

(Currently in Ottumwa, Iowa on my phone or I would post the links)

Visiting radar?

[Ned]

Visiting radar?

Aboard the California Zephyr with my bride of 36 years.

[abdsp51]

So therefore the challenge remains to cite that one can be drafted into a state military force.

I love a legal challenge, but this one is not too tricky.

In California, at least.  California Military and Veterans Code section 122 defines the militia in language very similar to that in the US Code, all able bodied males between 18 & 45.

Section 123 provides that the governor may order the "enrollment" of the militia.

Section 128 says that the milita may be ordered into active service for wars, insurrections, etc..

And section 129 (specifically using the word "drafted") points out that persons who are called up and fail to appear within 24 hours are "deserters" and may be dealt with according to the Articles of War.  (Which sounds like a Bad Thing for deserters.

Obviously, state laws will vary on this, but in California it is fairly clear that all able bodied men in the right age range can be drafted into active militia service and sent to war.

You might want to check your own state laws to see if you might already be a member of your state militia, subject to the draft.

Ned Lee
COL, (CA), Infantry
Member, Militia of the Great State of California

(Currently in Ottumwa, Iowa on my phone or I would post the links)

Col Lee I am a Ca resident unfortunately.  Currently serving AF, so good luck on the states part in drafting me.  Plus I'm pretty sure a Federal draft would override a state draft.

[Mitchell 1969]

Nothing bold about it.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

Refers to the US National Guard, not a state militia as was referenced. It's a bold statement due to that in the event there was a conflict that required a major upping in manpower the regular componets will get the bodies before the reserves and the guard. 

I checked Ca code and see nothing there about being drafted into the SDF there.  Which ironically being a member of the SDF doesn't exempt from being "drafted" into the US military.

So therefore the challenge remains to cite that one can be drafted into a state military force.

One doesn't get drafted into the militia in California. One is already in it if the membership requirements are met. Literally millions have been in it without even knowing it existed.

(Reminds me - I want my California discharge certificate from the militia. I did my time).


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[stillamarine]

So therefore the challenge remains to cite that one can be drafted into a state military force.

I love a legal challenge, but this one is not too tricky.

In California, at least.  California Military and Veterans Code section 122 defines the militia in language very similar to that in the US Code, all able bodied males between 18 & 45.

Section 123 provides that the governor may order the "enrollment" of the militia.

Section 128 says that the milita may be ordered into active service for wars, insurrections, etc..

And section 129 (specifically using the word "drafted") points out that persons who are called up and fail to appear within 24 hours are "deserters" and may be dealt with according to the Articles of War.  (Which sounds like a Bad Thing for deserters.

Obviously, state laws will vary on this, but in California it is fairly clear that all able bodied men in the right age range can be drafted into active militia service and sent to war.

You might want to check your own state laws to see if you might already be a member of your state militia, subject to the draft.

Ned Lee
COL, (CA), Infantry
Member, Militia of the Great State of California

(Currently in Ottumwa, Iowa on my phone or I would post the links)

The original post said all 50 states. Therefore the challenge is on the original poster to substantiate his claims.

[etodd]

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 ....

Able bodied between 17-44.  Well that leaves about 80% or more of CAP members staying at home.   

You folks are funny. I've already had several bags of popcorn.

[vorteks]

You folks are funny. I've already had several bags of popcorn.

Some people need to get out more

[abdsp51]

Nothing bold about it.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

Refers to the US National Guard, not a state militia as was referenced. It's a bold statement due to that in the event there was a conflict that required a major upping in manpower the regular componets will get the bodies before the reserves and the guard. 

I checked Ca code and see nothing there about being drafted into the SDF there.  Which ironically being a member of the SDF doesn't exempt from being "drafted" into the US military.

So therefore the challenge remains to cite that one can be drafted into a state military force.

One doesn't get drafted into the militia in California. One is already in it if the membership requirements are met. Literally millions have been in it without even knowing it existed.

(Reminds me - I want my California discharge certificate from the militia. I did my time).


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If that is the case then Ca owes me 20 years of compensation.

[RiverAux]

Not every state has a militia. I'm going to count the NG because in the event of something like this happening the NG will be federalized.

Every state has some sort of law allowing them to draft people into the state militia, or at least places men of certain ages (varies) into the "unorganized militia".  This is different from State Defense Forces.

That's a pretty bold statement. Now either back it up or take it back.

About 10 years ago as part of a strong interest in SDFs that I had at the time, I actually went through the militia laws of every state looking at this very topic and every single one (just about all were available by internet at the time) had some sort of statement saying that all men ages X to X were part of the militia of that state.  Usually, this was described as the "unorganized militia" and that the Governor had the authority to call the unorganized militia into service under various conditions.  This was separate from the clauses authorizing the state to have a National Guard and the authority (in almost every state) to organize an SDF or Naval Militia if they wanted to as part of the "organized" militia. 

If anyone chooses to dispute this, they can look it up if they want, but its a basic part of every state law and is related to the federal law cited earlier (being part of the "militia" is basically how the federal government used to draft people -- because you were in the militia, you could be called into service). 

This part of my statement was not crazy or extreme, just basic law.  The part about "drafting" CAP using that authority was the nutso part, but technically feasible. 

[Mitchell 1969]

Nothing bold about it.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

Refers to the US National Guard, not a state militia as was referenced. It's a bold statement due to that in the event there was a conflict that required a major upping in manpower the regular componets will get the bodies before the reserves and the guard. 

I checked Ca code and see nothing there about being drafted into the SDF there.  Which ironically being a member of the SDF doesn't exempt from being "drafted" into the US military.

So therefore the challenge remains to cite that one can be drafted into a state military force.

One doesn't get drafted into the militia in California. One is already in it if the membership requirements are met. Literally millions have been in it without even knowing it existed.

(Reminds me - I want my California discharge certificate from the militia. I did my time).


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If that is the case then Ca owes me 20 years of compensation.

There's the rub. You were in the unorganized militia. So unorganized that they didn't have any fiscal operation.


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[whatevah]

Not every state has a militia. I'm going to count the NG because in the event of something like this happening the NG will be federalized.

Every state has some sort of law allowing them to draft people into the state militia, or at least places men of certain ages (varies) into the "unorganized militia".  This is different from State Defense Forces.

That's a pretty bold statement. Now either back it up or take it back.

About 10 years ago as part of a strong interest in SDFs that I had at the time, I actually went through the militia laws of every state looking at this very topic and every single one (just about all were available by internet at the time) had some sort of statement saying that all men ages X to X were part of the militia of that state.  Usually, this was described as the "unorganized militia" and that the Governor had the authority to call the unorganized militia into service under various conditions.  This was separate from the clauses authorizing the state to have a National Guard and the authority (in almost every state) to organize an SDF or Naval Militia if they wanted to as part of the "organized" militia. 

If anyone chooses to dispute this, they can look it up if they want, but its a basic part of every state law and is related to the federal law cited earlier (being part of the "militia" is basically how the federal government used to draft people -- because you were in the militia, you could be called into service). 

This part of my statement was not crazy or extreme, just basic law.  The part about "drafting" CAP using that authority was the nutso part, but technically feasible.

My state, Delaware has no such power currently granted in its legal code or constitution. In fact, it specifies that the state militia is the National Guard and the separate State Defense Force (inactive since WWII) is volunteer. No other militia, organized or otherwise is mentioned.

That said... this thread has beaten the horse long enough.  Locked.