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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Targeted Recruiting and the Re-imagining of the Senior Member Experience
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Author Topic: Targeted Recruiting and the Re-imagining of the Senior Member Experience  (Read 5801 times)
Mitchell 1969
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Posts: 693
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2017, 05:22:55 AM »

CyBorgII - do you have an actual reason for being here? I mean, you do realize that it is not all about you, right?


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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
NIN
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« Reply #61 on: September 11, 2017, 06:54:55 AM »

tl;dr
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
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FW
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Posts: 2,145

« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2017, 09:10:46 AM »

CyBorgII - do you have an actual reason for being here? I mean, you do realize that it is not all about you, right?


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CAP is definitely not for everyone, however it is an experience worth the effort.  That said, it is important to accept those with the aptitude to make the best out of membership.  It must be remembered that the first law of CAP culture is "we're not going to change!"  We can argue the point until judgement day, however this first law is immutable.  We must find potential new blood which can thrive in our environment.  Agents of change will be marginalized and ignored until they just fade away.  Please don't try to recruit those who will try to go against the currents as you will end up as frustrated as the soon "former disgruntled member".   I remember the words of a now former region/cc; "I'm not going to say anything, because I want to be national commander one day"...  It is the end result of our years of "targeted recruiting"..... >:(
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Alaric
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Posts: 755

« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2017, 04:41:32 PM »

CyBorgII - do you have an actual reason for being here? I mean, you do realize that it is not all about you, right?


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+1
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grunt82abn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 206

« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2017, 04:54:48 PM »




TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
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Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present
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Member

Posts: 65
Unit: MER

« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2017, 08:22:10 PM »

TL//DR

Moving on?
Someone please tell me more about "re-imagining" the Senior Member experience.
I am interested in this idea.
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"Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until they’re so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact." -- SECDEF Mattis
CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 56
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2017, 12:16:49 PM »

TL//DR

Moving on?
Someone please tell me more about "re-imagining" the Senior Member experience.
I am interested in this idea.

It was never "all about me," and I never meant to put that idea forward.  The good Herr Oberstleutnant Bob Eclipse, though, has a tendency to make it "all about me" whenever I voice the unpopular view on CT that CAP is less than perfect.

However, I personally know of numerous other people besides myself who have been hurt/abused/cast out by CAP's calcified power structure as it currently stands.  Until/unless those people come forward to speak for themselves, though, I can only speak for myself, though many of their experiences are very similar to mine.

Until reforms are either voluntarily adopted by CAP and/or imposed on it by the Air Force, there can be no reimagining of the SM experience.

However, I do have a few suggestions, and, yes, some of them are based on my own experiences, and none of them will be popular with the CT "status quo" people.

  • Much more Air Force involvement, or abolition of the pretence that CAP has any connection with the Air Force; instead, adopt a model where CAP becomes more like the Australian Air League (https://airleague.com.au/), which is a private organisation unconnected with the RAAF (and has its own rank structure), unlike the Australian Air Cadets (http://www.aafc.org.au/).
  • Abolition or re-writing of the Form 2B.  Too often it is used to get rid of people a CC (at whatever level) simply does not want around.  I suggest adoption of a more-CGAUX style model, where the Air Force would be involved in any adverse termination of members.  This could be done by a Reserve or ANG JAG officer.  No, I wasn't 2B'd.
  • Abolition of the "AUXON/AUXOFF" status (which would take an act of Congress).
  • Abolition of flagging a member for nonrenewal/unable to join at National, unless the member has committed a felony and/or overt breach of discipline of CAP regulations (no, I haven't been flagged, as far as I know, but I haven't asked, either, though it wouldn't surprise me, as CAP not infrequently flags cage-rattlers.).
  • Requirement that a prospective enrollee/re-enrollee must go before a Squadron membership board face-to-face.
  • If/when a prospective enrollee/re-enrollee is refused membership, the person must be told in writing, with supporting citations from CAPR's, as to why they are not allowed to enrol/re-enrol, rather than just saying "no, you can't join."  Yes, this did happen to me, over a year ago.  After all, when I joined the military, if I had been refused, I would have been told why.  If, as a military-styled organisation, supported (in part) by the Air Force, why should CAP be any different?
  • The option for the refused enrollee/re-enrollee to appeal said decision, with a neutral arbiter from the Air Force (or Reserve, or ANG) making a final decision.
  • Adoption of a single uniform for senior members, designed by said senior members, wearable by all senior members, in consultation with the Air Force.
  • If the Air Force is unwilling/unable to provide this support, maybe it is time to see if the CAP can stand on its own as a totally non-profit organisation.

If that is TL/DR, let it be so.

As to "why am I here?" being that I am an outcast from CAP...someone has to provide a dissident voice on the otherwise overwhelmingly (with notable exceptions) pro-toe-the-National-line atmosphere here.  As someone no longer connected with the CAP power structure, I can do so without fear of "discipline," "demotion" (really, how many CAP members accept demotion without just saying "forget this" and quitting - and no, I was never demoted) or other adverse member actions.

If anyone is uncomfortable with my presence here, let it be submitted to the moderators.  I won't lose a second of sleep over being kicked off here, if it comes to that.

After all, dissidents have to be prepared for attempts to silence them.
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Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
Eclipse
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« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2017, 12:22:03 PM »

As to "why am I here?" being that I am an outcast from CAP...someone has to provide a dissident voice on the otherwise overwhelmingly (with notable exceptions) pro-toe-the-National-line atmosphere here.

A: Not really.

B: You're not an outcast, you left voluntarily.

C: The fact that you can't just move on and enjoy your time with the CGAux is unfortunate.
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,533

« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2017, 12:30:36 PM »

Dissidents remain part of the organization. You left you are not a dissident anymore.

There really is nothing to fear even if we do not believe anything NHQ does or say anything against. There will be no harm. No jail term, no arrest, no black helicopter coming after us...
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CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 56
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2017, 12:33:29 PM »

A: Not really.
As I said, dissenters are rarely popular.  I have always had a strong sense of speaking out against what I believe to be injustices (long before I had ever heard of CAP), and, as Lennon said many years ago, "I'm not the only one."

B: You're not an outcast, you left voluntarily.
After being told that my only two options for service were patron or "ghost" squadron service.  As you know, Herr Oberstleutnant, I tried to rejoin CAP in a different unit, was stonewalled as to why not (hence points 5 and 6 on my list) and expected to just "fade away."  I would say that makes me somewhat of an outcast, pariah, whatever.

C: The fact that you can't just move on and enjoy your time with the CGAux is unfortunate.

I quite enjoy my time with the CGAux and am up for a possible leadership position.   My taking the positions I do regarding an organisation I gave 17 years of my life to take nothing away from my enjoyment of the CGAux.

And, again, good sir, if you have a problem with my positions/presence, you are quite free to petition for my removal from this forum.

Dissidents remain part of the organization. You left you are not a dissident anymore.

I beg to differ, sir.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dissident

They often don't remain for long.  I've seen it with those who dissent too loudly.

There really is nothing to fear even if we do not believe anything NHQ does or say anything against. There will be no harm. No jail term, no arrest, no black helicopter coming after us...

But the distinct possibility of a Form 2B hanging over your head, sir, is very real.  Again, I've seen it.  I served in a squadron with a Chaplain (who was also a qualified Observer and GT Leader; a very HSLD type), a fellow I liked very much, who told me that if not for the intervention of a Wing Commander in another squadron, he was about to be 2B'd out because he had dissented on some policies with his squadron CC.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 12:39:30 PM by CyBorgII » Logged
Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,533

« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2017, 12:43:09 PM »

I have 20 years of service, and have been in about 7 different squadrons. Some with strict commanders. Never once did I felt threatened. If I did not like the atmosphere I left for another squadron. But never once any person threatened me with a 2b. Never once did I see anyone threatened.
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CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 56
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2017, 12:46:14 PM »

^^Then I applaud and honour your good fortune, sir.

My service time (17 years) is just a shade short of yours; and my service was with five squadrons (of all three currently-extant types) in two different wings (I moved a lot).

And, as you seem to be a reasonable person, can you view my proposals for CAP reform with a degree of professional detachment and state your opinions?
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Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
Eclipse
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Posts: 28,074

« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2017, 01:08:20 PM »

After being told that my only two options for service were patron or "ghost" squadron service.  As you know, Herr Oberstleutnant, I tried to rejoin CAP in a different unit, was stonewalled as to why not (hence points 5 and 6 on my list) and expected to just "fade away."  I would say that makes me somewhat of an outcast, pariah, whatever.

You apparently walked around with a history, shopped a number of units, and based on your comments here,
most sentences regarding participation began or ended with "I can't, because blah, blah...".  A lot of noise about not tooting your own horn,
the worlds against you, personal limitations and issues CAP has no control or involvement with, etc., etc., and indicated woes
from wall to wall, but had no interest in pursuing any of the internal paths to remediation or assistance, nor took the suggestions of those here
(and presumably in the real world, too.

At least own how you got where you are.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 933

« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2017, 01:24:57 PM »

Someone previously made a great remark regarding being "sold the mission."

How many people were "sold" the mission yet never ended up being a part of the mission? They have little to no guidance, they're treated like outcasts at meetings because of cliques gathered around a particular table, and they flat out find it boring most of the time with the "fun stuff" infrequent all while performing duties they don't want to perform with no feeling of rhyme or reason.

Frankly, some of the people who take CAP so seriously and really do their part drive away those who never felt like they got to be a part of it.

But we need to look at the structure of a unit to really look at where problematic areas are. You have the Senior Squadron, the Composite Squadron, and the Cadet Squadron.

The Senior Squadron is supposed to be "all mission." There are no internal distractions with other non-operational areas. And the most griping I have heard has come from Senior Squadrons because members are not happy, particularly when it comes to flying units. Some units are like fraternities. People join to be pilots or air crew, and they either never get the opportunity to get into the plane or they get treated like an outcast among the table of flight suit-wearing Top Gun fighter pilots. That's the reality of it. There is a lot of good that Senior Squadrons do, and they can focus on

In the Cadet Squadron, it's really an ROTC-type program. I find that cadet programs requires the most amount of attention over any other area in CAP, mostly because this one deals solely with people, specifically training those people to become our vision of well-rounded adults. There are numerous personal issues not uncommon to teenagers. There are issues in learning and testing. There are issues in uniformity. All kinds of problems that the program is there is teach, address, and repeat until we die or transfer out. For some, the cadet program is the most rewarding because it has that direct, almost immediate (or at least through an easy-to-observe learning curve) impact on the people you work with. It's a very flexible program that can run to the senior-in-charge's ideal fit. And most senior members in the CP have a link to the cadets in some way. I don't see a lot of CP officers "walk away." When they do, it usually seems to be due to stress or because their "cadet link" ends his/her time in the program.

Then, there's the Composite Squadron. This is by-far the toughest of the unit structures because of the cross-relationship and dual attention required of having both programs combined into one unit. It brings the greatest stress, with the potential for the greatest end-results because you're attempting to fulfill all, or most, of the CAP missions. But it carries the same retention problems as both the Senior Squadron and the Cadet Squadron because you have both personnel, adding in the often interpersonal differences between those running the Cadet and Senior "sides of the house."


If unit leadership can crack down on those interpersonal issues (mentioned above), and work to eliminate (or reduce) the "fraternity" mindset in some aspects of the unit, half the battle is won. You'll have a more cohesive unit that is able to work together to satisfy their needs as a team. Make sure it gets reinforced through those MWR (Morale, Welfare, and Retention) activities---unit socials, dining ins, bowling night, sports, PT'ing the Commander. Recognize individuals for their efforts and make them feel wanted.

Now, focus on the mission(s) that your unit conducts. Are you marketing your missions, or are you marketing CAP's missions? If your unit doesn't do that, do recruit people who believe that you do. If you don't have an aircraft, don't try to convince someone who wants more than anything to fly that this is their home base, or that they "can train on the side and visit other units in their spare time." Make sure you give the real image of your unit to recruits. And train your guys/gals to serve your unit's mission. It needs to be fun, but meaningful; meaningful, but fun.

Finally, hold your staff accountable. If they step out of line, it needs to be corrected. If they aren't performing their jobs accordingly, it needs to be corrected. It can be done positively, or negatively, depending on the appropriateness and necessity of the situation. But do not ever let your staff act like they are better than their staff, or treat subordinates as inferiors. Compliment your relationship with your staff by expressing your sanctification, or dissatisfaction, with their staff.


Before you concern yourself with recruiting as a main focus, you really need to check up on your unit's retention and see what issues can be fixed to stop any bleeding before bringing on new hands that will go the same route.

A squadron of 30, with 10 showing up regularly, and 5 you can rely on is a bad sign. It's not "the way things are." There is something wrong in your unit.
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CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 56
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2017, 01:28:47 PM »

^^Eclipse, I have differed with you publicly and privately on these many points and stated where I think you are incorrect.

I will not do so again.

We will just have to agree to disagree based on incompatible personality and worldviews.

But, at no time did I say the world was against me, and I did go up the chain when still a member of CAP.  I was told nothing could be done by a Group Commander and Deputy Group Commander.

Everybody has a "history."

If you don't like me, you don't like me.  You don't have to.  But I don't have to acknowledge you as The Last Word on matters regarding CAP.  Full stop.

My personal limitations and health issues are well-documented by physicians.  You are not a physician, sir.  Full stop.

You have never walked a mile in my moccasins, as the old saying goes, sir.  Full stop.

You are not the last word on CAP regulations.  Full stop.

If you do not like me, then either add me to your "ignore" list (I have done this with you, to avoid future conflicts; nor will I reply to any of your future posts, as it is illogical) or request that I be removed.  Full stop.

If unit leadership can crack down on those interpersonal issues (mentioned above), and work to eliminate (or reduce) the "fraternity" mindset in some aspects of the unit, half the battle is won. You'll have a more cohesive unit that is able to work together to satisfy their needs as a team. Make sure it gets reinforced through those MWR (Morale, Welfare, and Retention) activities---unit socials, dining ins, bowling night, sports, PT'ing the Commander. Recognize individuals for their efforts and make them feel wanted.

And, TheSkyHornet, your post makes too much logical, objective sense! >:D
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 01:37:06 PM by CyBorgII » Logged
Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 225

« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2017, 02:03:36 PM »

Sir Sir Sir Sir CGAux Sir Sir SIIRRRRR

If I give you some money from my wallet, will you just go away?  Good grief, for somebody who signs their posts with

Quote
Permanently ex-CAP, now back in the CG Auxiliary and digging it no end


you sure spend a lot of time on a CAP forum trying to make yourself some sort of Che Guevara. 

Isn't there some sort of CGAuxTalk you could be on, ingratiating yourself with over how much better they are than CAP? 

Your pride is hurt.  I get it.  Let it go, dude.  Take the good stuff you had, leave the bad, and improve yourself and your current organization.
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Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2017, 02:08:26 PM »

Sir Sir Sir Sir CGAux Sir Sir SIIRRRRR

If I give you some money from my wallet, will you just go away?  Good grief, for somebody who signs their posts with

Quote
Permanently ex-CAP, now back in the CG Auxiliary and digging it no end


you sure spend a lot of time on a CAP forum trying to make yourself some sort of Che Guevara. 

Isn't there some sort of CGAuxTalk you could be on, ingratiating yourself with over how much better they are than CAP? 

Your pride is hurt.  I get it.  Let it go, dude.  Take the good stuff you had, leave the bad, and improve yourself and your current organization.


Cyborg - the only member on this board that made my feelz do a 180 on them with their continued posting on the same issue.


Capt Cyborg,


Based on what I've read over the last 2 or so years from you here, if you came into my unit like a wrecking ball for a membership board, I'd probably deny you a transfer as well. And no, I wouldn't need to provide you a reason, and no, that doesn't violate any regulations.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 865

« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2017, 04:31:41 PM »



Some units are like fraternities. People join to be pilots or air crew, and they either never get the opportunity to get into the plane or they get treated like an outcast among the table of flight suit-wearing Top Gun fighter pilots. That's the reality of it.

I hear this a lot about opportunities to fly the plane and don't get it.  In my Squadron anyone who is qualified can rent the plane for C-12 Proficiency flights every day of the month if they want to. I simply go into WMIRS, enter the sortie and it gets released. Off I go to the airport.

Who, in these other squadrons, are telling pilots that cannot rent the plane?

So many squadrons do not meet the desired 200 hours per year with their plane. They should be excited to have a new pilot come along willing to rent the plane for proficiency flying or training and bump up the hobbs.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 04:35:04 PM by etodd » Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 693
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2017, 04:45:28 PM »

Sir Sir Sir Sir CGAux Sir Sir SIIRRRRR

If I give you some money from my wallet, will you just go away?  Good grief, for somebody who signs their posts with

Quote
Permanently ex-CAP, now back in the CG Auxiliary and digging it no end


you sure spend a lot of time on a CAP forum trying to make yourself some sort of Che Guevara. 

Isn't there some sort of CGAuxTalk you could be on, ingratiating yourself with over how much better they are than CAP? 

Your pride is hurt.  I get it.  Let it go, dude.  Take the good stuff you had, leave the bad, and improve yourself and your current organization.

Yes. What he said. But if you insist on staying, please lay off on addressing people by German rank titles. It's simply annoying, nicht war?

And, please don't come to a board of interested members and submit a list of multiple organizational and procedural changes that you, an outsider, believe to be essential, especially when there is extensive work to them up to and including acts of Congress. Because people are laughing at you all the more when you do that.


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 28,074

« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2017, 05:47:12 PM »



Some units are like fraternities. People join to be pilots or air crew, and they either never get the opportunity to get into the plane or they get treated like an outcast among the table of flight suit-wearing Top Gun fighter pilots. That's the reality of it.

I hear this a lot about opportunities to fly the plane and don't get it.  In my Squadron anyone who is qualified can rent the plane for C-12 Proficiency flights every day of the month if they want to. I simply go into WMIRS, enter the sortie and it gets released. Off I go to the airport.

Who, in these other squadrons, are telling pilots that cannot rent the plane?

So many squadrons do not meet the desired 200 hours per year with their plane. They should be excited to have a new pilot come along willing to rent the plane for proficiency flying or training and bump up the hobbs.

Only a small percentage of CAP aircrew are pilots, and only a small percentage of members are aircrew.
And of the pilots, only a small number are fully qual'ed and capable of renting an airplane, so what you say is
technically true, but not necessarily consistent.

Some of the points he's raised are valid, or at least were in years past, and there's still too much GOB in the organization,
though a lot of that has been actively excised over the last 5 or so years, however far too much of the issues raised
are personal in nature, and involve things CAP has no influence over, or ability to accommodate.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Targeted Recruiting and the Re-imagining of the Senior Member Experience
 


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