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Author Topic: Targeted Recruiting and the Re-imagining of the Senior Member Experience  (Read 5827 times)
Cicero
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« on: September 04, 2017, 06:50:36 PM »

https://youtu.be/cBnqxXH5kVY

Maj Jacob Gerstein and Capt Colleen McCormick need your help to revolutionize the way Civil Air Patrol recruits and engages its adult members! Learn about their program for reaching broader audiences, pinpointing skilled recruits, and effectively articulating the benefits of CAP service. Let’s make CAP membership more useful, relevant, and rewarding for the average American.
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EMT-83
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« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2017, 08:31:17 PM »

CAP doesn't have a recruiting problem, they have a retention problem. Eliminate the BS that causes members to walk away and membership numbers will soar.
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grunt82abn
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« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2017, 08:34:50 PM »

CAP doesn't have a recruiting problem, they have a retention problem. Eliminate the BS that causes members to walk away and membership numbers will soar.

You mean like stop treating SM like day one USAF recruits, yelling and disrespecting them in front of a classroom full of cadets, parents and other SM? Stopping that type of BS would probably help
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Sean Riley, TSGT
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EMT-83
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« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2017, 08:39:28 PM »

I was thinking more about roadblocks thrown in the way of promotions, professional development, emergency services training and the GOB flying club mentally, but you do have a point.
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etodd
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« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2017, 09:12:24 PM »

I would say for some SMs, a problem is training for the day that never comes.  Unless you are part of a AP crew for floods. (AP, MO, MP)  And live near an area that floods.

One of the slides from the video:

"Volunteers want to see tangible results of their efforts"

Some of our new SMs are involved with our Cadet Program. Seems to me that would be one of the best targets for new recruits. Adults who enjoy teaching and working with Cadets. Every meeting, they are doing what they enjoy. No waiting months or years for an actual emergency. Every meeting they are mentoring Cadets. :)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 09:24:59 PM by etodd » Logged
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stillamarine
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« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2017, 10:07:40 PM »

CAP doesn't have a recruiting problem, they have a retention problem. Eliminate the BS that causes members to walk away and membership numbers will soar.

You mean like stop treating SM like day one USAF recruits, yelling and disrespecting them in front of a classroom full of cadets, parents and other SM? Stopping that type of BS would probably help

Yeah. That would be bad. I've been in 5 squadrons as a SM and have never seen that. I don't doubt that it happens but it needs to be nipped in the bud real fast. We all know the AF don't even yell at their recruits like that.  >:D >:D >:D
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grunt82abn
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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2017, 10:09:42 PM »

CAP doesn't have a recruiting problem, they have a retention problem. Eliminate the BS that causes members to walk away and membership numbers will soar.

You mean like stop treating SM like day one USAF recruits, yelling and disrespecting them in front of a classroom full of cadets, parents and other SM? Stopping that type of BS would probably help

Yeah. That would be bad. I've been in 5 squadrons as a SM and have never seen that. I don't doubt that it happens but it needs to be nipped in the bud real fast. We all know the AF don't even yell at their recruits like that.  >:D >:D >:D
If an AF recruit doesn't get yelled at why should a volunteer


TSGT Sean Riley
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Sean Riley, TSGT
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LTC Don
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2017, 07:21:53 AM »

CAP doesn't have a recruiting problem, they have a retention problem. Eliminate the BS that causes members to walk away and membership numbers will soar.


The retention issue is a real one, but we do in fact, also have a recruiting problem, and it's quite huge.
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Donald A. Beckett, Lt Col, CAP
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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2017, 07:33:27 AM »

Maybe it's just me, however I still don't think anyone cares about "exit surveys" any longer.  Before we can effectively recruit/retain members, we must entertain those pesky facts relating to good leadership, proper training, effective use of said member, and integrating them into "our community"...... just sayn'...
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kwe1009
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« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2017, 10:31:55 AM »

CAP doesn't have a recruiting problem, they have a retention problem. Eliminate the BS that causes members to walk away and membership numbers will soar.


The retention issue is a real one, but we do in fact, also have a recruiting problem, and it's quite huge.

Recruiting and retention are very intertwined.  If you can reduce the retention issue, it will organically help with recruiting.  There is an old customer service saying that a person who has a bad experience will tell everyone they know but a person who has a good experience will only tell a few people.  Just like in the military, every CAP member is a recruiter.  Depending on their CAP experience, they will be a positive or negative recruiter.

If we can make it a more enjoyable experience then people will want to stay and also bring in their friends.  If we make it a bad experience, we just run current members away and the potential members that they might have recruited.

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Eclipse
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« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2017, 10:56:05 AM »

The retention issues can not be fix via recruiting, and in some cases over-recruiting just makes the retention issues worse.

Bringing people into an organization that is not ready, or able,to accept them, simply to increase numbers, risks their long-term affiliation for a short-term gain,
and also potentially grows the "tell three friends" chain on a negative curve.

Unfortunately the issues which affect retention will require actions NHQ has historically been uninterested in entertaining.  If one assumes "New CC, New day",
you're still talking about an evolution that will be 3-5 years to fruition, and that may, or may not have started with the new HEADCAP.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2017, 11:42:21 AM »

CAP doesn't have a recruiting problem, they have a retention problem. Eliminate the BS that causes members to walk away and membership numbers will soar.

You mean like stop treating SM like day one USAF recruits, yelling and disrespecting them in front of a classroom full of cadets, parents and other SM? Stopping that type of BS would probably help


That might be a local issue. Sh....stuff like that doesn't fly in too many places, nor should it.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2017, 11:50:30 AM »

That might be a local issue. Sh....stuff like that doesn't fly in too many places, nor should it.

Sadly it's more prevalent then you might think, and sometimes new members take it for a short while
thinking that's "part of the game", making it worse when they find it isn't.
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etodd
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« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2017, 12:01:52 PM »

"Targeted Recruiting"

Is a great tool in that you can be picky ... if you know this is just a 'military wannabe' who will have all the wrong priorities and turn others off ... do not recruit this person.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2017, 12:06:06 PM »

That's not how "targeted recruiting" works, nor even recruiting, since those conversations,
by design, don't generally happen until after any "targeting" is done.

"military wannabe"?  Your Freudian Slip is showing.

The same could also be said for not recruiting people who want to turn CAP into the "aw shucks" club.

Maybe just "recruiting", present the organization as it is, including actual expectations, and let the chips fall.
Filtering happens with the CC at the orientation meetings, not the recruiting table.
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dwb
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« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2017, 12:12:33 PM »

Targeted recruiting happens when you know the kind of people you're going after.

For example, if you recruit at an AOPA safety event, you're clearly targeting pilots. Versus just recruiting at the mall.

Setting up a booth at a STEM fair is targeting a certain kind of teenager, as opposed to just setting up in the cafeteria.

Targeted recruiting gets you higher quality people in the pipeline, who are more likely to be retained. You still have to work hard to keep them, but they're more predisposed to liking what CAP is offering.
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CyBorgII
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« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2017, 12:36:44 PM »

You mean like stop treating SM like day one USAF recruits, yelling and disrespecting them in front of a classroom full of cadets, parents and other SM? Stopping that type of BS would probably help

I never saw that in 17 years of CAP.  However, my first unit did have military-style unit assemblies at the start of every meeting in the drill hall of an Armed Forces Reserve facility.  I thought it was a good thing.  It built esprit de corps and drew us closer together as a unit.  There was no yelling or humiliation.  But I would bet we were one of the few squadrons in my then-Wing with seniors who could do drill and ceremony as well as cadets could.

Moving from that to a senior squadron where

I was thinking more about roadblocks thrown in the way of promotions, professional development, emergency services training and the GOB flying club mentally, but you do have a point.

I did see and experience this in 17 years of CAP.  And for those censorious naysayers who want to just say "oh, you're just bitter" - das tut mir leid.  Ban me, complain about me, but it does not change the fact that it happens.  Making me go away from CT or silencing other dissenters will not solve a problem.

Like I learnt in the AA, the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have a problem.

And until this problem is kiboshed, very little, if anything, will change with CAP recruiting/retention.

CAP lost not just me, but they have lost a lot of otherwise-dedicated members over bollocks like head-tripping CC's, impenetrable Group/Wing GOB/G networks, promises made but not kept  I know some of them.

No, I will never be back in CAP.  But that doesn't mean I have lost all affection for the organisation that I gave 17 years of my life to, or for the truly quality-orientated members who remain and trying to be the voice of one calling in the wilderness on behalf of them.  After all, since I am out of the organisation, nothing can be done to be done to me.  Oh, yes, I can be banned from CT, but it won't change anything within the organisation.

Yes, I am doing quite well for myself now in the CGAUX, thank God.  But there are many members of both organisations who are dual-hatted and it is only to the benefit of both organisations if positive reform is implemented in CAP.
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« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2017, 03:22:57 PM »

CAP doesn't have a recruiting problem, they have a retention problem. Eliminate the BS that causes members to walk away and membership numbers will soar.

The data does not back up what you're saying.

Retention is certainly factor that could be improved in the organization. No question.

However, no volunteer organization ever retained its way in to growth.

For the last 17 years, our monthly new member joins has continued to trend downward for both cadet and senior.  Senior retention has been relatively flat, and cadet retention is actually up a little bit.  But we're taking in less new members now than we were a decade ago.

This is broadly what is causing most of our membership issues.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2017, 03:35:50 PM »

You can't grow without retention.

Without retention all you have is churn, which might be fine for affinity organizations,
but is death to organizations which need experience and expertise to fulfill their mission.

The sweet spot of "tens years experience" has essentially evaporated in the last decade,
and that's not something you can simply recruit your way out of.

Considering what little fire there is about recruiting (beyond rhetoric), there's nothing around
retention, or even much interest when long-term veterans, the people CAP needs most, either
quit abruptly, or start dialing down their presence.

There isn't even a way to actually track who's a real member.  So while I can't argue your
curve of new members, there's no way to actually know how many "real" members there are.
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Cicero
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« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2017, 04:07:32 PM »

CAP doesn't have a recruiting problem, they have a retention problem. Eliminate the BS that causes members to walk away and membership numbers will soar.

You mean like stop treating SM like day one USAF recruits, yelling and disrespecting them in front of a classroom full of cadets, parents and other SM? Stopping that type of BS would probably help

5 Squadrons since 1972 - I have never EVER seen that, nor have I ever heard of that happening.
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Cicero
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« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2017, 04:08:30 PM »

The data does not back up what you're saying.
Data? That matters? The video has a ton of great data, and actionable ideas.
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grunt82abn
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« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2017, 04:21:06 PM »

CAP doesn't have a recruiting problem, they have a retention problem. Eliminate the BS that causes members to walk away and membership numbers will soar.

You mean like stop treating SM like day one USAF recruits, yelling and disrespecting them in front of a classroom full of cadets, parents and other SM? Stopping that type of BS would probably help

5 Squadrons since 1972 - I have never EVER seen that, nor have I ever heard of that happening.
Lucky you then, because I have seen it twice in my short 18 months in CAP.


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grunt82abn
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« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2017, 04:22:27 PM »

That might be a local issue. Sh....stuff like that doesn't fly in too many places, nor should it.

Sadly it's more prevalent then you might think, and sometimes new members take it for a short while
thinking that's "part of the game", making it worse when they find it isn't.
Concur!


TSGT Sean Riley
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Sean Riley, TSGT
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« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2017, 04:23:12 PM »

CAP doesn't have a recruiting problem, they have a retention problem. Eliminate the BS that causes members to walk away and membership numbers will soar.

You mean like stop treating SM like day one USAF recruits, yelling and disrespecting them in front of a classroom full of cadets, parents and other SM? Stopping that type of BS would probably help

5 Squadrons since 1972 - I have never EVER seen that, nor have I ever heard of that happening.
Lucky you then, because I have seen it twice in my short 18 months in CAP.


TSGT Sean Riley
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That needs to be Neganed.
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Strup
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grunt82abn
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« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2017, 04:26:53 PM »

CAP doesn't have a recruiting problem, they have a retention problem. Eliminate the BS that causes members to walk away and membership numbers will soar.

You mean like stop treating SM like day one USAF recruits, yelling and disrespecting them in front of a classroom full of cadets, parents and other SM? Stopping that type of BS would probably help

5 Squadrons since 1972 - I have never EVER seen that, nor have I ever heard of that happening.
Lucky you then, because I have seen it twice in my short 18 months in CAP.


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042

That needs to be Neganed.
Neganed?


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Sean Riley, TSGT
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« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2017, 04:59:13 PM »

You can't grow without retention.

Without retention all you have is churn, which might be fine for affinity organizations,
but is death to organizations which need experience and expertise to fulfill their mission.

The sweet spot of "tens years experience" has essentially evaporated in the last decade,
and that's not something you can simply recruit your way out of.

Considering what little fire there is about recruiting (beyond rhetoric), there's nothing around
retention, or even much interest when long-term veterans, the people CAP needs most, either
quit abruptly, or start dialing down their presence.

There isn't even a way to actually track who's a real member.  So while I can't argue your
curve of new members, there's no way to actually know how many "real" members there are.

So what is our retention? Do you know?

As I said, could retention be better? Sure. No question.

Organizations will have retention loss.  Its a part of doing business. People grow up, they die, they take new jobs, they get divorces, their personal circumstances change, they lose their medicals, etc, etc, etc.

Anybody who says that CAP's retention needs to be nothing less than 100% is living in a fantasy land.

Organizations lose people all the time, even good ones. Look at whatever company you work for: surely you probably have ~ 80% retention (you sole proprietors can just step off.. LOL..). You lose people, you gain people. You're continually in the process of getting the right people on the bus and in the right seats.

So lets talk about that retention. 

Do you think senior member retention has taken a dive over the last 17 years or has it improved? Or is it about the same.

Hint: I can tell you that senior member retention has hovered around the same range for the the time we have that granular level of data.  Like with a couple percentage points. It varies, sure, and over time it goes up several or down several, but in the long run, across multiple "command regimes", its fairly flat.



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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Cicero
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« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2017, 06:53:07 PM »

CAP doesn't have a recruiting problem, they have a retention problem. Eliminate the BS that causes members to walk away and membership numbers will soar.

You mean like stop treating SM like day one USAF recruits, yelling and disrespecting them in front of a classroom full of cadets, parents and other SM? Stopping that type of BS would probably help

5 Squadrons since 1972 - I have never EVER seen that, nor have I ever heard of that happening.
Lucky you then, because I have seen it twice in my short 18 months in CAP.


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042

That needs to be Neganed.
Neganed?


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
Dunno what Neganed means but I'd drop a dime to the IG and find another unit ASAP. That is simply not acceptable. Shocking is the most temperate word I can think of.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2017, 07:13:36 PM »

Two things I've heard mentioned at every CAWG conference I've been to (about every three years):

Half the cadets in the organization have been members less than one year. That is certainly a retention issue. Reasons vary, as noted above.

If we retained ten percent of the people who bail at the end of their first year, we would have respectable growth every year. This has come from several different wing commanders over a period of 12 or 13 years.

I see cadet and senior member retention on separate but parallel paths. The reasons for leaving are sometimes different, as are potential solutions.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2017, 11:58:45 PM »

That might be a local issue. Sh....stuff like that doesn't fly in too many places, nor should it.

Sadly it's more prevalent then you might think, and sometimes new members take it for a short while
thinking that's "part of the game", making it worse when they find it isn't.

Where? I've been in five Squadrons, four Group HQs and a Wing HQ, some of them multiple times, over 50 years and have NEVER seen that.


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Eclipse
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« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2017, 12:14:11 AM »

So what is our retention? Do you know?

No, and neither do you, or anyone else at NHQ, and >that< is a HUGE problem in this regard.

No one knows because there is no definition of "retention", beyond the most pure, flat numbers of
members, and that number is literally meaningless.

The only thing NHQ actually has a handle on is "donors" - everyone who writes a check that clears is
a "donor", but that's meaningless in a real-world, "where are we" retention discussion.

Patrons aside, there are hundreds, likely thousands of members who haven't seen a unit meeting
or other activity in years, write a check out of habit or some sense of loyalty, and are zero
factor in regards to unit operations.  These people may well be "retained", but they are just "donors".

Couple that with the hundreds, possibly thousands, of cadets who leave for college, write checks for a couple of years
and then leave to never come back, yet are still counted as "members" for any number of years.

Until there is a definition of "active", trying to figure out "retention" is a useless endeavor.

Hint: I can tell you that senior member retention has hovered around the same range for the the time we have that granular level of data.  Like with a couple percentage points. It varies, sure, and over time it goes up several or down several, but in the long run, across multiple "command regimes", its fairly flat.

How many first-year members failed to renew in the last fiscal year? Why?

How many members with at least ten years in failed to renew?  Why?

How many new members were recruited in the last fiscal year?

How many members failed to renew in the last fiscal year?

How many >ACTIVE< members does this organization have?  Cadet and Senior.
For a baseline, an "active" member must have attended at least three meetings in the last fiscal year.

Recruiting and retention have little meaning if you don't know why you're looking for new people, or why they
are leaving, or more importantly, that they actually already left, and no one noticed or cared.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2017, 12:23:09 AM »

That might be a local issue. Sh....stuff like that doesn't fly in too many places, nor should it.

Sadly it's more prevalent then you might think, and sometimes new members take it for a short while
thinking that's "part of the game", making it worse when they find it isn't.

Where? I've been in five Squadrons, four Group HQs and a Wing HQ, some of them multiple times, over 50 years and have NEVER seen that.

Well, consider yourself lucky to have not had to deal with that kind of nonsense.

I'm not saying it's the norm, the fact that it's an outlier is why it's remarkable or noticeable.

In some cases it's a military guy who's going to "whip this unit into shape", and soon finds
himself "marching up and down the square" alone. Others it's a well-intentioned new
guy who has seen too many movies. More commonly it's someone who has no business being a CC,
or isn't but wants to drive from the rear, just being an jerk for no particular reason. People are people.

It's generally dealt with swiftly when it comes out, but a lot of times it takes a while
to be noticed, or some random other conversation opens a floodgate of "WTH?"

You haven't lived until you've had to deal with a member who some idiot made cry.
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grunt82abn
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Posts: 206

« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2017, 12:24:45 AM »

That might be a local issue. Sh....stuff like that doesn't fly in too many places, nor should it.

Sadly it's more prevalent then you might think, and sometimes new members take it for a short while
thinking that's "part of the game", making it worse when they find it isn't.

Where? I've been in five Squadrons, four Group HQs and a Wing HQ, some of them multiple times, over 50 years and have NEVER seen that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just because you have NEVER seen it doesn't mean I haven't! Made my point, that's as much as I'm saying about that.


TSGT Sean Riley
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« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2017, 06:41:04 AM »

A little bit of training on how to recruit people never hurts. 

But the (mostly) untold story of senior member retention problems begins at the Wing or Group level.  As has been said, if you've got a senior interested in cadet programs, you're golden as there is always plenty of stuff for them to do. 

But, for seniors primarily motivated by ES, which I'd say is a significant majority of senior members, then the average squadron is going to have a hard time getting them trained and then called upon to use that training.  The Group or Wing ES program is going to be determinative in how long they stick around. 

An ES-motivated member that is an active Wing with lots of opportunity to learn and use their skills is usually going to be willing to put up with the minor hassles  found in CAP. 

Having a few more meetings with local and county officials will probably have more long-term impact on recruiting and retention than almost any recruiting event. 
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2017, 11:19:41 AM »

That might be a local issue. Sh....stuff like that doesn't fly in too many places, nor should it.

Sadly it's more prevalent then you might think, and sometimes new members take it for a short while
thinking that's "part of the game", making it worse when they find it isn't.

Where? I've been in five Squadrons, four Group HQs and a Wing HQ, some of them multiple times, over 50 years and have NEVER seen that.

Well, consider yourself lucky to have not had to deal with that kind of nonsense.

I'm not saying it's the norm, the fact that it's an outlier is why it's remarkable or noticeable.

In some cases it's a military guy who's going to "whip this unit into shape", and soon finds
himself "marching up and down the square" alone. Others it's a well-intentioned new
guy who has seen too many movies. More commonly it's someone who has no business being a CC,
or isn't but wants to drive from the rear, just being an jerk for no particular reason. People are people.

It's generally dealt with swiftly when it comes out, but a lot of times it takes a while
to be noticed, or some random other conversation opens a floodgate of "WTH?"

You haven't lived until you've had to deal with a member who some idiot made cry.


Of course, here I am, saying I've never seen it happen, yet I "yelled" at a room full of cadets and SMs last night. A presenter was at the front of the room, ready to roll into the slides. Cadets are seated, waiting. Some SMs are standing talking, others are sitting, talking. A helpful SM turns off the lights in the room (what a great sign, right?). Conversation continues...


I gave it 10 seconds. Felt like an eternity. People didn't get the hint. Here comes "ROOM, we have a presenter at the front of the room, the lights were dimmed as a sign to sit down and quiet down. Please respect your fellow member". Admittedly I was a bit mad, but I suppose that loud "ROOM" can be counted as yelling in someone else's ears.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2017, 11:39:48 AM »

That might be a local issue. Sh....stuff like that doesn't fly in too many places, nor should it.

Sadly it's more prevalent then you might think, and sometimes new members take it for a short while
thinking that's "part of the game", making it worse when they find it isn't.

Where? I've been in five Squadrons, four Group HQs and a Wing HQ, some of them multiple times, over 50 years and have NEVER seen that.

Well, consider yourself lucky to have not had to deal with that kind of nonsense.

I'm not saying it's the norm, the fact that it's an outlier is why it's remarkable or noticeable.

In some cases it's a military guy who's going to "whip this unit into shape", and soon finds
himself "marching up and down the square" alone. Others it's a well-intentioned new
guy who has seen too many movies. More commonly it's someone who has no business being a CC,
or isn't but wants to drive from the rear, just being an jerk for no particular reason. People are people.

It's generally dealt with swiftly when it comes out, but a lot of times it takes a while
to be noticed, or some random other conversation opens a floodgate of "WTH?"

You haven't lived until you've had to deal with a member who some idiot made cry.

So, you're saying it is a rare event, doesn't last long and is dealt with? How rare? One Squadron? 12? 200? Over a one year period? 5? Since 1957?

If it's an aberration, then, yes, it's painful, hurtful, harmful to the organization, but certainly not a result of doctrine. It's a people problem, or more accurately probably a person problem. If the person who encounters it and posted it here reported it, I hope it was resolved. But I don't think it reasonable to tar all of CAP with it anymore than it is to tarvan airline for one bird strike crash.

As to your last point, well, I guess I must be pretty experienced then, as I've had to deal with that a lot over the years. Just not for the SM getting the Gunny Highway treatment from another Senior. (Jeez, doesn't anybody know how to say "go pound sand" anymore?)
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2017, 11:44:17 AM »

That might be a local issue. Sh....stuff like that doesn't fly in too many places, nor should it.

Sadly it's more prevalent then you might think, and sometimes new members take it for a short while
thinking that's "part of the game", making it worse when they find it isn't.

Where? I've been in five Squadrons, four Group HQs and a Wing HQ, some of them multiple times, over 50 years and have NEVER seen that.

Well, consider yourself lucky to have not had to deal with that kind of nonsense.

I'm not saying it's the norm, the fact that it's an outlier is why it's remarkable or noticeable.

In some cases it's a military guy who's going to "whip this unit into shape", and soon finds
himself "marching up and down the square" alone. Others it's a well-intentioned new
guy who has seen too many movies. More commonly it's someone who has no business being a CC,
or isn't but wants to drive from the rear, just being an jerk for no particular reason. People are people.

It's generally dealt with swiftly when it comes out, but a lot of times it takes a while
to be noticed, or some random other conversation opens a floodgate of "WTH?"

You haven't lived until you've had to deal with a member who some idiot made cry.


Of course, here I am, saying I've never seen it happen, yet I "yelled" at a room full of cadets and SMs last night. A presenter was at the front of the room, ready to roll into the slides. Cadets are seated, waiting. Some SMs are standing talking, others are sitting, talking. A helpful SM turns off the lights in the room (what a great sign, right?). Conversation continues...


I gave it 10 seconds. Felt like an eternity. People didn't get the hint. Here comes "ROOM, we have a presenter at the front of the room, the lights were dimmed as a sign to sit down and quiet down. Please respect your fellow member". Admittedly I was a bit mad, but I suppose that loud "ROOM" can be counted as yelling in someone else's ears.

Nah. 'tweren't yelling. Or abusive. Sometimes an amplified voice is needed just to be heard over the crowd. No different than using a PA system.
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Eclipse
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« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2017, 11:46:11 AM »

No one said it was doctrine - that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  What does CAP do to prevent it?
COnsistent training expectations?  Ramifications for poor performance or repeated infractions?
(Stop me when I get to something that actually happens on a regular basis).

And no, the art of the STFU is lost these days, coupled with people being special snowflakes.

That's double for many "adults", and while what Майор Хаткевич is referring to above, I wouldn't put in the same category,
it's not out of the realm for someone to take offense to being told to "knock it off", especially if they felt their conversation
about that Facebook meme was more important then the class they are disrupting.

Brave new world...
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SarDragon
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« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2017, 04:47:10 PM »

Of course, here I am, saying I've never seen it happen, yet I "yelled" at a room full of cadets and SMs last night. A presenter was at the front of the room, ready to roll into the slides. Cadets are seated, waiting. Some SMs are standing talking, others are sitting, talking. A helpful SM turns off the lights in the room (what a great sign, right?). Conversation continues...


I gave it 10 seconds. Felt like an eternity. People didn't get the hint. Here comes "ROOM, we have a presenter at the front of the room, the lights were dimmed as a sign to sit down and quiet down. Please respect your fellow member". Admittedly I was a bit mad, but I suppose that loud "ROOM" can be counted as yelling in someone else's ears.

You were quite tactful Good for you. You used your "command voice" in a proper and effective manner.

OTOH, my ploy is simply a firm, "LISTEN UP!" in said command (instructor) voice. Gets their attention quickly, in a no nonsense way.
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Dave Bowles
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etodd
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« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2017, 05:05:39 PM »

The social aspect. Its a hard one to put in a report or study. How many seniors in your squadron will meet somewhere for a quick dinner before heading to the meeting? Or meet for lunch on other days? How many plane crews doing proficiency cross country flights stop somewhere, grab a crew car and go eat? How many UDF teams meet up somewhere for some beacon practice, and then keep yakking by the cars for another hour before leaving?  Is your squadron 'all business' with maybe a chuckle here and there, or is everyone becoming friends 'outside' of CAP?

These things matter. And its not the food.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2017, 05:23:46 PM »

The social aspect. Its a hard one to put in a report or study. How many seniors in your squadron will meet somewhere for a quick dinner before heading to the meeting? Or meet for lunch on other days? How many plane crews doing proficiency cross country flights stop somewhere, grab a crew car and go eat? How many UDF teams meet up somewhere for some beacon practice, and then keep yakking by the cars for another hour before leaving?  Is your squadron 'all business' with maybe a chuckle here and there, or is everyone becoming friends 'outside' of CAP?

These things matter. And its not the food.


We're all business. It doesn't mean that I didn't call someone an old salt, imply that I only tolerate the VC because he's the VC (while he is in the room), or make fun of myself during the meeting. One does not have to be separated from the other, but audience, and balance matter.
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etodd
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« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2017, 05:45:05 PM »

Balance. Yes. 

I visited our squadron about 8 years ago and it was 'all business'.  Too formal in a bad way. People being run off. After visiting for a month, I realized it wasn't for me.

6 years later got invited back by a friend saying things were much better. He was correct. We have a great group of folks that I enjoy being around. The troublemakers are gone. In the 2 years I've been here no one has left and we have added several new folks. We all enjoy working AND playing together. :)
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RiverAux
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« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2017, 05:52:29 PM »

One thing that the Coast Guard Auxiliary has done in this regard is that "Fellowship" is considered one of the most important activities we perform.  In my flotilla that usually consists of a cookout 2-3 times a summer and our annual banquet/change-of-watch.  I think it does help give people a chance to bond with non-Aux talk.  That isn't really to be found at all in CAP. 
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Eclipse
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« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2017, 07:06:37 PM »

One thing that the Coast Guard Auxiliary has done in this regard is that "Fellowship" is considered one of the most important activities we perform.  In my flotilla that usually consists of a cookout 2-3 times a summer and our annual banquet/change-of-watch.  I think it does help give people a chance to bond with non-Aux talk.  That isn't really to be found at all in CAP.

I agree, but one of the issues is when?

Most of the more active members don't have time left for "cookouts", or anything else that isn't program-based or
"not CAP, I'm at home this weekend".  I can't even fathom where the time for a BBQ 2-3 times a summer would come from.

This is actually a core issue with the program, especially on the cadet side.  The expectations for QCUA, AEX, etc., now exceed the
recommended contact hours in a month / year, or are the exact amount, leaving little time for "social".

On the rare occasions we steal a 5th week, it's always made a difference, but the calendars just don't have enough days.

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etodd
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« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2017, 09:13:28 PM »

Yes, if you wait until you can schedule something where 'everyone' can attend , it'll never happen.  We have the one cookout and boating outing in the summer at the lake. About half attend. We have the Christmas Party that most attend.  5th Tuesday next month is Halloween, so we will have a fun night of games and costumes for those cadets and seniors that want to attend.

Last month's 5th Tuesday the cadets went bowling.

But back to my other post its mostly 2 or 3 at a time. Invite someone in your squadron you don't know really well to lunch. Or start up a group that meets for supper at a restaurant near the squadrons meeting place. We have a 'meat n three' a few blocks away that a group goes before nearly every meeting.

Its how you really get to know people. One on one outside the squadron. Learn their desires and needs. Have some fun. Explore each others' hobbies. Makes for a cohesive group with bonds that keep everyone happy and together. :)
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Cicero
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« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2017, 12:36:09 PM »

We just did our annual picnic, attendance was awesome (maybe 70 - 80 attendees?) and it appeared everyone had a good time. The younger folks  played volleyball, us older types networked and told stories and laughed. All good, very worth doing.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2017, 12:49:40 PM »

I realize this sounds like an excuse, but anyone suggesting getting together before meetings for dinner, etc.,
must have the majority of the membership living pretty close to the meeting location.

In my wing, especially up North, where humans actually live, most of the members live 30-60 minutes
from the location, and have to slog rush hour traffic to get there, meaning they can barely make the
meeting itself, sometimes wolfing down a Big Mac during classes, and weekend activities need to
have a critical mass to make them worth the effort because of the distances travels and other conflicts.

This is especially true for the cadets.

With a third Sat already taken up by a curriculum-based activity, few families can give up another
weekend to CAP.
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etodd
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Posts: 865

« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2017, 04:37:54 PM »

I realize this sounds like an excuse, but anyone suggesting getting together before meetings for dinner, etc.,
must have the majority of the membership living pretty close to the meeting location.

In my wing, especially up North, where humans actually live, most of the members live 30-60 minutes
from the location, and have to slog rush hour traffic to get there,

Sounds like its time to startup a new Squadron.

Yes, most of our members are probably a 15 minute drive, or less, to the airport.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2017, 07:36:22 PM »

I realize this sounds like an excuse, but anyone suggesting getting together before meetings for dinner, etc.,
must have the majority of the membership living pretty close to the meeting location.

In my wing, especially up North, where humans actually live, most of the members live 30-60 minutes
from the location, and have to slog rush hour traffic to get there,

Sounds like its time to startup a new Squadron.

Yes, most of our members are probably a 15 minute drive, or less, to the airport.

"15 minute drive" only makes sense as a local reference. It doesn't equate to distance on a national scale. That's an important point, because I've never heard of a new unit being started with time as the primary factor. Distance is far more common.

I worked 20 miles from where my Squadron met. Sounds close, right? Based on Google Maps, checked just a minute ago, if I left now, about 1630 local, I'd arrive at the meeting at about 1745. But I rarely was able to leave at 1630. For every 15 minutes I delayed leaving, I had to plan on at least an additional 20 minutes, not 15, due to increased traffic. When I reached a point on the route where more traffic came in, that went up to an additional 30 minutes for every 15 that I had delayed - I could have missed the bulk of it if I left earlier. And that was not including traffic variables.

So, if I left work between 1700 and 1745, to go 20 miles, I was looking at arriving at the meeting between 1830 and 1930. No time for dinner with the guys. In fact, I'd be late.

Add more Squadrons? I actually drove past one Squadron between work and my unit. But I didn't belong to that one, because the unit I belonged to was closer to where I lived, which was exactly 30 miles from work.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 07:40:10 PM by Mitchell 1969 » Logged
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
etodd
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Posts: 865

« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2017, 10:45:00 PM »



 Distance is far more common.

Yep.  There is a 50 mile stretch of Interstate here. Two Squadrons on either end and one in the middle, each at an airport. Most members do not have to drive far in distance or time wise to be at a meeting.

I guess we are unique. But does make it nice, and easier for all of us to get together.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2017, 11:18:09 AM »

I realize this sounds like an excuse, but anyone suggesting getting together before meetings for dinner, etc.,
must have the majority of the membership living pretty close to the meeting location.

In my wing, especially up North, where humans actually live, most of the members live 30-60 minutes
from the location, and have to slog rush hour traffic to get there,

Sounds like its time to startup a new Squadron.

Yes, most of our members are probably a 15 minute drive, or less, to the airport.

"15 minute drive" only makes sense as a local reference. It doesn't equate to distance on a national scale. That's an important point, because I've never heard of a new unit being started with time as the primary factor. Distance is far more common.

I worked 20 miles from where my Squadron met. Sounds close, right? Based on Google Maps, checked just a minute ago, if I left now, about 1630 local, I'd arrive at the meeting at about 1745. But I rarely was able to leave at 1630. For every 15 minutes I delayed leaving, I had to plan on at least an additional 20 minutes, not 15, due to increased traffic. When I reached a point on the route where more traffic came in, that went up to an additional 30 minutes for every 15 that I had delayed - I could have missed the bulk of it if I left earlier. And that was not including traffic variables.

So, if I left work between 1700 and 1745, to go 20 miles, I was looking at arriving at the meeting between 1830 and 1930. No time for dinner with the guys. In fact, I'd be late.

Add more Squadrons? I actually drove past one Squadron between work and my unit. But I didn't belong to that one, because the unit I belonged to was closer to where I lived, which was exactly 30 miles from work.


My unit is 7.1/6.9 miles away from my house, depending on the route I travel. Both currently show 16 minute travel time. Many of our members live further away than I.
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #50 on: September 08, 2017, 12:05:13 PM »

Most of the squadron's (and Wings) I've seen are white, white, white... and mostly pre-Gen-X...  including pilots, air crew, cadets, leadership, SM involved in Aerospace/safety/transportation/ES... etc.   A few years ago I noticed the same monoculture at NESA.  To me, it looks like our current recruiting is already "targeted".  And that targeted  recruiting seems to somehow miss whole segments of our population who might be interested and who might bring some very interesting skills/viewpoints to our mix. 

What are other squadrons (and wings) doing to broadly appeal across generations and across ethnicities/cultural groups? 
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #51 on: September 08, 2017, 12:19:13 PM »

Most of the squadron's (and Wings) I've seen are white, white, white... and mostly pre-Gen-X...  including pilots, air crew, cadets, leadership, SM involved in Aerospace/safety/transportation/ES... etc.   A few years ago I noticed the same monoculture at NESA.  To me, it looks like our current recruiting is already "targeted".  And that targeted  recruiting seems to somehow miss whole segments of our population who might be interested and who might bring some very interesting skills/viewpoints to our mix. 

What are other squadrons (and wings) doing to broadly appeal across generations and across ethnicities/cultural groups?


I'm not one for diversity for diversities sake, but I think you're generalizing a bit. Yes, most members are Caucasian. Most are male too. But at least in my personal experience, most local units have non-white cadets and SMs, including immigrants from all over the world, some non citizens (as I was when I joined). Demographics of certain areas will be different, and being in the Chicagoland area we certainly have a larger mix of ethnicity and nationalities, but we certainly don't target recruiting at only one type of member. As for pre-Gen-X? We're talking people over 50. People who have been working for 30ish years, and may be seeking opportunities outside of the daily grind. Their kids might be teens/in college/away from home, and they need to fill the void, if you will. They are also typically better established financially, and may have the disposable income to get a pilots license. It's basically the same demo as Harley Davidson owners. But there are PLENTY of members who are sub 50, and yes, even a few of us in our 20s on the SM side. We just don't have the runway to afford work, family, home, car AND flight lessons.

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etodd
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« Reply #52 on: September 08, 2017, 12:24:12 PM »

We have a mixed group here for Cadets, but I think part of the problem may be that many minority teens who are thinking military gravitate to their high school ROTC programs. Its at their school, so no transportation or scheduling issues, etc. And many may have never even heard of CAP. We don't have enough recruiting officers to hit every school that first week to grab kids before they sign up for ROTC.

Yes, this thread is about Seniors ... but we need to grow a very mixed Cadet membership that will one day be the Seniors.
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Alaric
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« Reply #53 on: September 08, 2017, 12:25:29 PM »

Most of the squadron's (and Wings) I've seen are white, white, white... and mostly pre-Gen-X...  including pilots, air crew, cadets, leadership, SM involved in Aerospace/safety/transportation/ES... etc.   A few years ago I noticed the same monoculture at NESA.  To me, it looks like our current recruiting is already "targeted".  And that targeted  recruiting seems to somehow miss whole segments of our population who might be interested and who might bring some very interesting skills/viewpoints to our mix. 

What are other squadrons (and wings) doing to broadly appeal across generations and across ethnicities/cultural groups?

When I was recruiting I did nothing to broadly appeal across generations and across ethnicities/cultural groups?

I told people who we were and what we did, all the people who stopped at my table regardless of age, race, ethnicity.  The ones that were interested took information, the ones that weren't didn't. 
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CyBorgII
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« Reply #54 on: September 09, 2017, 10:52:39 AM »

My unit is 7.1/6.9 miles away from my house, depending on the route I travel. Both currently show 16 minute travel time. Many of our members live further away than I.

It depends on whether or not your unit is working well and includes all members in activities, and has reasonable expectations of participation to justify the drive, especially with the price of liquid gold these days.

My first (best) unit, whom I served with for six years, was 30 miles one way from where I lived.  It was well worth the drive for the first and third Tuesday of the month, and the three CC's I served under (two were not prior-service military, and one had been an Air Force nurse in Vietnam) all had reasonable expectations of balancing family/work/other activities/CAP.  If you were not going to be there, a call or e-mail sufficed with a usual response of "too bad, see you next time," and it was all good.  They were my friends as well as my CAP colleagues and I looked forward to seeing them.  The distance didn't matter to me.  In fact, I asked my last CC to be one of the groomsmen in my wedding but the distance was too far for him to make it.

My last (and quite probably worst) unit, whom I served with for just over two years, is about 10 miles from where I live and meets every Monday night, though the CC set "activities" for Saturdays and Sundays and you were expected to be at every one unless you were near-death (and you got an unexcused absence - cadet or senior - if your reason did not meet with his approval).  Family?  Get them to join CAP.  Church?  CAP outranks God.

The other units (I have moved a lot) were somewhere in-between in driving distance, expectations and quality of service, except for a senior squadron where if you weren't a pilot, you were "baggage," and they wanted nothing to do with cadets (including providing O-flights).  One cadet squadron was really good, even though it was 40 miles one-way, until the commander (who I liked very much) had a tiff with the wing commander and she left CAP entirely (for good reason).  The two CC's after her were fair-to-middling; one tended to play favourites with his son who was a cadet and I didn't care much for that.

My CGAux unit is only about six blocks away from me but I wouldn't care much about going if I didn't like the people and/or they had unrealistic expectations.  Fortunately, so far that hasn't been the case.

My point?  Make your unit an active, but well-balanced, one and one that your members will want to attend.
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« Reply #55 on: September 09, 2017, 11:07:50 AM »

My point?  Make your unit an active, but well-balanced, one and one that your members will want to attend.

Wanting to attend doesn't change the physics of being able to attend. There are activities all over my Wing
and Region I'd like to play at which simply don't work for my schedule. That's on >me< not an indictment of CAP,
or some conspiracy against me personally to stifle my participation and progression.

Should I go blame the people signing invoice checks for making me work so much my motorcycle has been sitting
on the stand for a couple months because it's their fault I don't have the time to fix it?

I wanted to go zip-lining last weekend with my family, however my proclivity towards snacks and genetic predispotion
towards gigantism force me to be a spectator.  Some things simply "are".  Should I harbor ill feelings towards the
cable installers for not putting in stronger cables, or Gaia for making cows so tasty?

As to your comment about Sats and Suns, when else are weekend activities supposed to occur?

One a month is considered a best-practice, and is all but required in order to keep up with the
expectations these days, especially on the cadet side.  Somehow thousands of members
are able to maintain their religious obligations and still participate in weekend activities, and
few even mention the conflicts these days because CAP is hardly the only conflict in people's
busy lives.

Most of the major religions CAP members would be a part of have alternative ways to services
beyond "Sunday go to meeting". If Muslim members can attend encampments with few to no issues,
surely Christians and Jews can find ways to do what they need to do, not the least of which is
taking advantage of the presence of Chaplains when they are available.

But if they can't, no foul, but maybe CAP isn't an option, any more then for a cadet who has Boy Scouts
or Future Farmers on a CAP meeting night.  Life is choice.  Make one, move on.

Team Rubicon has been looking very attractive to me as an alternative to CAP, but the reality is my
life doesn't allow for me to be more then an edge player in an organization that generally requires
deployment to other states.  Business travel is one thing, but ES tourism simply isn't an option
for me today.  I'm not going to resent TR because they won't change for me.

Comments like "CAP outranks God", when a Unit CC is just doing his job, aren't cricket.

Does the same apply for CAP people and other ES workers helping in the South right now?
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Briank
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Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2017, 03:01:05 PM »

It depends on whether or not your unit is working well and includes all members in activities, and has reasonable expectations of participation to justify the drive, especially with the price of liquid gold these days.

It's a very interesting thing to watch.  I've only been in for 2 years, but have already seen a lot of the challenges locally.  New people coming in being sold on the mission, then becoming disappointed and going away.  Sometimes as rapidly as just a couple months.  Others hopping around unit shopping, trying find/make a place for themselves.

I used to travel about (for other, non-CAP volunteer activities), not worrying about cost so much.  The last few years though money has been a lot tighter, so I'm a lot less willing to travel for things unless I know it's a good value.  I've got 2 nearby CAP units.  The "best" fit for me is a really painful 35 minute drive (other side of the river, just a couple bridges and I swear they're always torn up causing terrible traffic).  Used to brave that traffic all the time when the unit was very active, but now it's rebuilding, with the new SMs doing things I've already done.  The other unit is only 20 minutes away and not a bad drive at all.  However, while it's chartered as a Composite Squadron, in practice it's really a Cadet Squadron without things for SMs to do.  I attend when I think I've got something to offer, but lately that's not often at all.  The Group meetings are also about 35 (easy) minutes away, but those have a lot more value to myself as a SM, so I make a point to attend those whenever possible.  That's where it seems like the action is locally.  I wonder how much better recruiting and retention might be if we could get more people from the local units to attend Group meetings?  Getting people interested is easy.  Trying to get them to sign up after going to a local unit meeting though is hard.  If they do join (often despite misgivings), retention fails when they don't feel like they're making any progress in the local units.
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etodd
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« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2017, 08:45:45 PM »


 The Group meetings are also about 35 (easy) minutes away, but those have a lot more value to myself as a SM, so I make a point to attend those whenever possible.  That's where it seems like the action is locally.  I wonder how much better recruiting and retention might be if we could get more people from the local units to attend Group meetings?

What is a group meeting? I haven't heard of that.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #58 on: September 10, 2017, 09:14:07 PM »

Larger wings have Units report into a Group HQ which then reports into Wing HQ to
reduce the span of control for the Wing.
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CyBorgII
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Posts: 56
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2017, 02:27:18 AM »

That's on >me< not an indictment of CAP, or some conspiracy against me personally to stifle my participation and progression.

'Tis most unfortunate indeed, Bob, to point out that, in at least one instance, there was a structural failing in CAP based upon personal bias and of this former member being told he could not participate except as a patron member, doing nothing, or ghost squadron member to sit out until accruing 20 years so I could have a piece of paper saying "Civil Air Patrol Retired."  Your refusal to acknowledge it does not make it less so, sir.

I wanted to go zip-lining last weekend with my family, however my proclivity towards snacks and genetic predispotion
towards gigantism force me to be a spectator.  Some things simply "are".  Should I harbor ill feelings towards the
cable installers for not putting in stronger cables, or Gaia for making cows so tasty?

No comment as I do not know what zip-lining is.  I plead ignorance.

As to your comment about Sats and Suns, when else are weekend activities supposed to occur?

One a month is considered a best-practice, and is all but required in order to keep up with the expectations these days, especially on the cadet side. 

This was averaging three weekends a month, with all cadets and seniors required to attend, or accrue unexcused absences if reason for absence did not meet with said CC "approval" - seniors too.  Sometimes said "weekend activities" were little more than cleaning the airplane (whether said bird had flown or not) or sweeping the hangar.  This was in addition to required weekly meetings.

Somehow thousands of members are able to maintain their religious obligations and still participate in weekend activities, and few even mention the conflicts these days because CAP is hardly the only conflict in people's busy lives.

Most of the major religions CAP members would be a part of have alternative ways to services beyond "Sunday go to meeting". If Muslim members can attend encampments with few to no issues, surely Christians and Jews can find ways to do what they need to do, not the least of which is taking advantage of the presence of Chaplains when they are available.

These were not encampments, sir.  These were "activities" thought up by CC at the squadron level.  If I found "Sunday go to meeting" more fulfilling than yet another marathon session of cleaning dead bugs off a 172 or sweeping out a hangar that had been swept out the week before...nolo contendre.  I would offer my services for a Saturday but not a Sunday...which still resulted in an unexcused absence as said CC found that unacceptable.

If a Chaplain were available, my own particular denomination would not permit me to receive the Sacraments (if offered), unless said Chaplain was a called and ordained pastor of my denomination (the concept is called "closed communion").

But if they can't, no foul, but maybe CAP isn't an option, any more then for a cadet who has Boy Scouts or Future Farmers on a CAP meeting night.  Life is choice.  Make one, move on.

In my case the choice was made for me, sir, and if I chose not to Come And Pay just to be on the "ghost squadron" books, guilty as charged.  You - nor anyone else - do not have to like, acknowledge or believe it, but it does not alter the facts.  Thankfully, I have found another outlet with much more compassionate leadership and who I am making fast friends with.  However, and call me an old, sentimental softie on this, I still harbour enough affection for an organisation I gave 17 years of my life to, and earned several commendations with, and made many friends in prior units, to hope it has it in itself to change the way it does things and acknowledge that not all of its members can be "active duty CAP."

It (CAP) was an option up until the very last unit I served with.  A very good, and fulfilling, option, in fact.

Team Rubicon has been looking very attractive to me as an alternative to CAP, but the reality is my life doesn't allow for me to be more then an edge player in an organization that generally requires deployment to other states.  Business travel is one thing, but ES tourism simply isn't an option for me today.  I'm not going to resent TR because they won't change for me.

Again I plead ignorance, because I do not know what Team Rubicon is, and I have not even heard of it until now.

Comments like "CAP outranks God", when a Unit CC is just doing his job, aren't cricket.

They are "quite cricket" (have you ever played cricket, sir?) indeed.  I knew a lot of good commanders in CAP, some of whom it was my pleasure to serve under, who did not feel the need to be Emperor Palpatine in "doing their job."

I am up for a leadership position in the CGAUX soon, and one thing I am taking away from my last CAP experience is how not to "lead."

Does the same apply for CAP people and other ES workers helping in the South right now?

Apples and oranges, sir, unless you can find a logical comparison between mandatory make-work/busy-work at the local level just so a squadron can say it is "doing something," and the many dedicated CAP people putting their heart and soul into relieving suffering in Texas (and soon enough, Southeast Region, once Irma passes).

I believe the Herr Oberstleutnant allows his personal feelings toward me, whom he has never met, and his perceived need to defend the actions of my former CC (incidentally, in the two years since I have left CAP, my former squadron is down to five people, according to their published website), perhaps because he is/was a CC himself, even though he has also never met said former CC, to colour his responses.  But that's OK.  I've long accepted that not everyone likes me, nor do they have to.  As a paraphrase of my sig line goes, "I'm just not his kind."  Fortunately, there are others who do like me and who do find me to be "their kind," so this former 17-year CAP Captain sleeps with good conscience.

If the Lieutenant Colonel feels the need to defend maintaining status-quo CAP practise just to keep malcontents like myself out, then that it is his option...and if other posters on this board want to line up with Bob...that is their option, and if I am to be censured/banned just for being a dissident voice...what was that possibly-apocryphal Groucho Marx quote?

It's a very interesting thing to watch.  I've only been in for 2 years, but have already seen a lot of the challenges locally.  New people coming in being sold on the mission, then becoming disappointed and going away.  Sometimes as rapidly as just a couple months.  Others hopping around unit shopping, trying find/make a place for themselves.

Agreed.  I saw it a lot.  My last unit lost a member who was a retired Navy Commander rotary-wing instructor who I thought would have made an excellent CC.  As I told Lieutenant Colonel Bob Eclipse, that unit is now down to about five members.

My first unit, as I said, was about 30 miles one-way to drive, two times a month.  Fortunately, they were a darn good bunch so making the effort/drive was not a problem.  The unit also had an almost-CGAUX concept of "fellowship."  We also partnered with another unit that had an airplane, which is how I got to earn Observer status.  Getting up at zero-dark-thirty, driving to my home unit, and then driving another 40 miles to the unit with the airplane and spending all of a Saturday there did not seem like a sacrifice at all because we got a sense of fulfillment.  Maybe I just got spoilt because I struck gold with such a good unit right away.

However, while it's chartered as a Composite Squadron, in practice it's really a Cadet Squadron without things for SMs to do. 

And I belonged to a Cadet squadron which functioned more as a Composite squadron.  I must admit that the need to have the two perplexes me as there is so much overlap in the way they operate.

The Group meetings are also about 35 (easy) minutes away, but those have a lot more value to myself as a SM, so I make a point to attend those whenever possible. 

One of my last gasps at staying in CAP was enquiring if there were any spaces at the Group level.  I was told there were not.

If they do join (often despite misgivings), retention fails when they don't feel like they're making any progress in the local units.

A lot of it depends on how the local unit is run.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2017, 05:22:55 AM »

CyBorgII - do you have an actual reason for being here? I mean, you do realize that it is not all about you, right?


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« Reply #61 on: September 11, 2017, 06:54:55 AM »

tl;dr
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FW
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« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2017, 09:10:46 AM »

CyBorgII - do you have an actual reason for being here? I mean, you do realize that it is not all about you, right?


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CAP is definitely not for everyone, however it is an experience worth the effort.  That said, it is important to accept those with the aptitude to make the best out of membership.  It must be remembered that the first law of CAP culture is "we're not going to change!"  We can argue the point until judgement day, however this first law is immutable.  We must find potential new blood which can thrive in our environment.  Agents of change will be marginalized and ignored until they just fade away.  Please don't try to recruit those who will try to go against the currents as you will end up as frustrated as the soon "former disgruntled member".   I remember the words of a now former region/cc; "I'm not going to say anything, because I want to be national commander one day"...  It is the end result of our years of "targeted recruiting"..... >:(
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Alaric
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« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2017, 04:41:32 PM »

CyBorgII - do you have an actual reason for being here? I mean, you do realize that it is not all about you, right?


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+1
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grunt82abn
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« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2017, 04:54:48 PM »




TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
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« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2017, 08:22:10 PM »

TL//DR

Moving on?
Someone please tell me more about "re-imagining" the Senior Member experience.
I am interested in this idea.
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CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 56
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2017, 12:16:49 PM »

TL//DR

Moving on?
Someone please tell me more about "re-imagining" the Senior Member experience.
I am interested in this idea.

It was never "all about me," and I never meant to put that idea forward.  The good Herr Oberstleutnant Bob Eclipse, though, has a tendency to make it "all about me" whenever I voice the unpopular view on CT that CAP is less than perfect.

However, I personally know of numerous other people besides myself who have been hurt/abused/cast out by CAP's calcified power structure as it currently stands.  Until/unless those people come forward to speak for themselves, though, I can only speak for myself, though many of their experiences are very similar to mine.

Until reforms are either voluntarily adopted by CAP and/or imposed on it by the Air Force, there can be no reimagining of the SM experience.

However, I do have a few suggestions, and, yes, some of them are based on my own experiences, and none of them will be popular with the CT "status quo" people.

  • Much more Air Force involvement, or abolition of the pretence that CAP has any connection with the Air Force; instead, adopt a model where CAP becomes more like the Australian Air League (https://airleague.com.au/), which is a private organisation unconnected with the RAAF (and has its own rank structure), unlike the Australian Air Cadets (http://www.aafc.org.au/).
  • Abolition or re-writing of the Form 2B.  Too often it is used to get rid of people a CC (at whatever level) simply does not want around.  I suggest adoption of a more-CGAUX style model, where the Air Force would be involved in any adverse termination of members.  This could be done by a Reserve or ANG JAG officer.  No, I wasn't 2B'd.
  • Abolition of the "AUXON/AUXOFF" status (which would take an act of Congress).
  • Abolition of flagging a member for nonrenewal/unable to join at National, unless the member has committed a felony and/or overt breach of discipline of CAP regulations (no, I haven't been flagged, as far as I know, but I haven't asked, either, though it wouldn't surprise me, as CAP not infrequently flags cage-rattlers.).
  • Requirement that a prospective enrollee/re-enrollee must go before a Squadron membership board face-to-face.
  • If/when a prospective enrollee/re-enrollee is refused membership, the person must be told in writing, with supporting citations from CAPR's, as to why they are not allowed to enrol/re-enrol, rather than just saying "no, you can't join."  Yes, this did happen to me, over a year ago.  After all, when I joined the military, if I had been refused, I would have been told why.  If, as a military-styled organisation, supported (in part) by the Air Force, why should CAP be any different?
  • The option for the refused enrollee/re-enrollee to appeal said decision, with a neutral arbiter from the Air Force (or Reserve, or ANG) making a final decision.
  • Adoption of a single uniform for senior members, designed by said senior members, wearable by all senior members, in consultation with the Air Force.
  • If the Air Force is unwilling/unable to provide this support, maybe it is time to see if the CAP can stand on its own as a totally non-profit organisation.

If that is TL/DR, let it be so.

As to "why am I here?" being that I am an outcast from CAP...someone has to provide a dissident voice on the otherwise overwhelmingly (with notable exceptions) pro-toe-the-National-line atmosphere here.  As someone no longer connected with the CAP power structure, I can do so without fear of "discipline," "demotion" (really, how many CAP members accept demotion without just saying "forget this" and quitting - and no, I was never demoted) or other adverse member actions.

If anyone is uncomfortable with my presence here, let it be submitted to the moderators.  I won't lose a second of sleep over being kicked off here, if it comes to that.

After all, dissidents have to be prepared for attempts to silence them.
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Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
Eclipse
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« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2017, 12:22:03 PM »

As to "why am I here?" being that I am an outcast from CAP...someone has to provide a dissident voice on the otherwise overwhelmingly (with notable exceptions) pro-toe-the-National-line atmosphere here.

A: Not really.

B: You're not an outcast, you left voluntarily.

C: The fact that you can't just move on and enjoy your time with the CGAux is unfortunate.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2017, 12:30:36 PM »

Dissidents remain part of the organization. You left you are not a dissident anymore.

There really is nothing to fear even if we do not believe anything NHQ does or say anything against. There will be no harm. No jail term, no arrest, no black helicopter coming after us...
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CyBorgII
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Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2017, 12:33:29 PM »

A: Not really.
As I said, dissenters are rarely popular.  I have always had a strong sense of speaking out against what I believe to be injustices (long before I had ever heard of CAP), and, as Lennon said many years ago, "I'm not the only one."

B: You're not an outcast, you left voluntarily.
After being told that my only two options for service were patron or "ghost" squadron service.  As you know, Herr Oberstleutnant, I tried to rejoin CAP in a different unit, was stonewalled as to why not (hence points 5 and 6 on my list) and expected to just "fade away."  I would say that makes me somewhat of an outcast, pariah, whatever.

C: The fact that you can't just move on and enjoy your time with the CGAux is unfortunate.

I quite enjoy my time with the CGAux and am up for a possible leadership position.   My taking the positions I do regarding an organisation I gave 17 years of my life to take nothing away from my enjoyment of the CGAux.

And, again, good sir, if you have a problem with my positions/presence, you are quite free to petition for my removal from this forum.

Dissidents remain part of the organization. You left you are not a dissident anymore.

I beg to differ, sir.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dissident

They often don't remain for long.  I've seen it with those who dissent too loudly.

There really is nothing to fear even if we do not believe anything NHQ does or say anything against. There will be no harm. No jail term, no arrest, no black helicopter coming after us...

But the distinct possibility of a Form 2B hanging over your head, sir, is very real.  Again, I've seen it.  I served in a squadron with a Chaplain (who was also a qualified Observer and GT Leader; a very HSLD type), a fellow I liked very much, who told me that if not for the intervention of a Wing Commander in another squadron, he was about to be 2B'd out because he had dissented on some policies with his squadron CC.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 12:39:30 PM by CyBorgII » Logged
Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2017, 12:43:09 PM »

I have 20 years of service, and have been in about 7 different squadrons. Some with strict commanders. Never once did I felt threatened. If I did not like the atmosphere I left for another squadron. But never once any person threatened me with a 2b. Never once did I see anyone threatened.
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CyBorgII
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« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2017, 12:46:14 PM »

^^Then I applaud and honour your good fortune, sir.

My service time (17 years) is just a shade short of yours; and my service was with five squadrons (of all three currently-extant types) in two different wings (I moved a lot).

And, as you seem to be a reasonable person, can you view my proposals for CAP reform with a degree of professional detachment and state your opinions?
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Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
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« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2017, 01:08:20 PM »

After being told that my only two options for service were patron or "ghost" squadron service.  As you know, Herr Oberstleutnant, I tried to rejoin CAP in a different unit, was stonewalled as to why not (hence points 5 and 6 on my list) and expected to just "fade away."  I would say that makes me somewhat of an outcast, pariah, whatever.

You apparently walked around with a history, shopped a number of units, and based on your comments here,
most sentences regarding participation began or ended with "I can't, because blah, blah...".  A lot of noise about not tooting your own horn,
the worlds against you, personal limitations and issues CAP has no control or involvement with, etc., etc., and indicated woes
from wall to wall, but had no interest in pursuing any of the internal paths to remediation or assistance, nor took the suggestions of those here
(and presumably in the real world, too.

At least own how you got where you are.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2017, 01:24:57 PM »

Someone previously made a great remark regarding being "sold the mission."

How many people were "sold" the mission yet never ended up being a part of the mission? They have little to no guidance, they're treated like outcasts at meetings because of cliques gathered around a particular table, and they flat out find it boring most of the time with the "fun stuff" infrequent all while performing duties they don't want to perform with no feeling of rhyme or reason.

Frankly, some of the people who take CAP so seriously and really do their part drive away those who never felt like they got to be a part of it.

But we need to look at the structure of a unit to really look at where problematic areas are. You have the Senior Squadron, the Composite Squadron, and the Cadet Squadron.

The Senior Squadron is supposed to be "all mission." There are no internal distractions with other non-operational areas. And the most griping I have heard has come from Senior Squadrons because members are not happy, particularly when it comes to flying units. Some units are like fraternities. People join to be pilots or air crew, and they either never get the opportunity to get into the plane or they get treated like an outcast among the table of flight suit-wearing Top Gun fighter pilots. That's the reality of it. There is a lot of good that Senior Squadrons do, and they can focus on

In the Cadet Squadron, it's really an ROTC-type program. I find that cadet programs requires the most amount of attention over any other area in CAP, mostly because this one deals solely with people, specifically training those people to become our vision of well-rounded adults. There are numerous personal issues not uncommon to teenagers. There are issues in learning and testing. There are issues in uniformity. All kinds of problems that the program is there is teach, address, and repeat until we die or transfer out. For some, the cadet program is the most rewarding because it has that direct, almost immediate (or at least through an easy-to-observe learning curve) impact on the people you work with. It's a very flexible program that can run to the senior-in-charge's ideal fit. And most senior members in the CP have a link to the cadets in some way. I don't see a lot of CP officers "walk away." When they do, it usually seems to be due to stress or because their "cadet link" ends his/her time in the program.

Then, there's the Composite Squadron. This is by-far the toughest of the unit structures because of the cross-relationship and dual attention required of having both programs combined into one unit. It brings the greatest stress, with the potential for the greatest end-results because you're attempting to fulfill all, or most, of the CAP missions. But it carries the same retention problems as both the Senior Squadron and the Cadet Squadron because you have both personnel, adding in the often interpersonal differences between those running the Cadet and Senior "sides of the house."


If unit leadership can crack down on those interpersonal issues (mentioned above), and work to eliminate (or reduce) the "fraternity" mindset in some aspects of the unit, half the battle is won. You'll have a more cohesive unit that is able to work together to satisfy their needs as a team. Make sure it gets reinforced through those MWR (Morale, Welfare, and Retention) activities---unit socials, dining ins, bowling night, sports, PT'ing the Commander. Recognize individuals for their efforts and make them feel wanted.

Now, focus on the mission(s) that your unit conducts. Are you marketing your missions, or are you marketing CAP's missions? If your unit doesn't do that, do recruit people who believe that you do. If you don't have an aircraft, don't try to convince someone who wants more than anything to fly that this is their home base, or that they "can train on the side and visit other units in their spare time." Make sure you give the real image of your unit to recruits. And train your guys/gals to serve your unit's mission. It needs to be fun, but meaningful; meaningful, but fun.

Finally, hold your staff accountable. If they step out of line, it needs to be corrected. If they aren't performing their jobs accordingly, it needs to be corrected. It can be done positively, or negatively, depending on the appropriateness and necessity of the situation. But do not ever let your staff act like they are better than their staff, or treat subordinates as inferiors. Compliment your relationship with your staff by expressing your sanctification, or dissatisfaction, with their staff.


Before you concern yourself with recruiting as a main focus, you really need to check up on your unit's retention and see what issues can be fixed to stop any bleeding before bringing on new hands that will go the same route.

A squadron of 30, with 10 showing up regularly, and 5 you can rely on is a bad sign. It's not "the way things are." There is something wrong in your unit.
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CyBorgII
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Posts: 56
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2017, 01:28:47 PM »

^^Eclipse, I have differed with you publicly and privately on these many points and stated where I think you are incorrect.

I will not do so again.

We will just have to agree to disagree based on incompatible personality and worldviews.

But, at no time did I say the world was against me, and I did go up the chain when still a member of CAP.  I was told nothing could be done by a Group Commander and Deputy Group Commander.

Everybody has a "history."

If you don't like me, you don't like me.  You don't have to.  But I don't have to acknowledge you as The Last Word on matters regarding CAP.  Full stop.

My personal limitations and health issues are well-documented by physicians.  You are not a physician, sir.  Full stop.

You have never walked a mile in my moccasins, as the old saying goes, sir.  Full stop.

You are not the last word on CAP regulations.  Full stop.

If you do not like me, then either add me to your "ignore" list (I have done this with you, to avoid future conflicts; nor will I reply to any of your future posts, as it is illogical) or request that I be removed.  Full stop.

If unit leadership can crack down on those interpersonal issues (mentioned above), and work to eliminate (or reduce) the "fraternity" mindset in some aspects of the unit, half the battle is won. You'll have a more cohesive unit that is able to work together to satisfy their needs as a team. Make sure it gets reinforced through those MWR (Morale, Welfare, and Retention) activities---unit socials, dining ins, bowling night, sports, PT'ing the Commander. Recognize individuals for their efforts and make them feel wanted.

And, TheSkyHornet, your post makes too much logical, objective sense! >:D
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 01:37:06 PM by CyBorgII » Logged
Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 225

« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2017, 02:03:36 PM »

Sir Sir Sir Sir CGAux Sir Sir SIIRRRRR

If I give you some money from my wallet, will you just go away?  Good grief, for somebody who signs their posts with

Quote
Permanently ex-CAP, now back in the CG Auxiliary and digging it no end


you sure spend a lot of time on a CAP forum trying to make yourself some sort of Che Guevara. 

Isn't there some sort of CGAuxTalk you could be on, ingratiating yourself with over how much better they are than CAP? 

Your pride is hurt.  I get it.  Let it go, dude.  Take the good stuff you had, leave the bad, and improve yourself and your current organization.
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Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2017, 02:08:26 PM »

Sir Sir Sir Sir CGAux Sir Sir SIIRRRRR

If I give you some money from my wallet, will you just go away?  Good grief, for somebody who signs their posts with

Quote
Permanently ex-CAP, now back in the CG Auxiliary and digging it no end


you sure spend a lot of time on a CAP forum trying to make yourself some sort of Che Guevara. 

Isn't there some sort of CGAuxTalk you could be on, ingratiating yourself with over how much better they are than CAP? 

Your pride is hurt.  I get it.  Let it go, dude.  Take the good stuff you had, leave the bad, and improve yourself and your current organization.


Cyborg - the only member on this board that made my feelz do a 180 on them with their continued posting on the same issue.


Capt Cyborg,


Based on what I've read over the last 2 or so years from you here, if you came into my unit like a wrecking ball for a membership board, I'd probably deny you a transfer as well. And no, I wouldn't need to provide you a reason, and no, that doesn't violate any regulations.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 865

« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2017, 04:31:41 PM »



Some units are like fraternities. People join to be pilots or air crew, and they either never get the opportunity to get into the plane or they get treated like an outcast among the table of flight suit-wearing Top Gun fighter pilots. That's the reality of it.

I hear this a lot about opportunities to fly the plane and don't get it.  In my Squadron anyone who is qualified can rent the plane for C-12 Proficiency flights every day of the month if they want to. I simply go into WMIRS, enter the sortie and it gets released. Off I go to the airport.

Who, in these other squadrons, are telling pilots that cannot rent the plane?

So many squadrons do not meet the desired 200 hours per year with their plane. They should be excited to have a new pilot come along willing to rent the plane for proficiency flying or training and bump up the hobbs.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 04:35:04 PM by etodd » Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 693
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2017, 04:45:28 PM »

Sir Sir Sir Sir CGAux Sir Sir SIIRRRRR

If I give you some money from my wallet, will you just go away?  Good grief, for somebody who signs their posts with

Quote
Permanently ex-CAP, now back in the CG Auxiliary and digging it no end


you sure spend a lot of time on a CAP forum trying to make yourself some sort of Che Guevara. 

Isn't there some sort of CGAuxTalk you could be on, ingratiating yourself with over how much better they are than CAP? 

Your pride is hurt.  I get it.  Let it go, dude.  Take the good stuff you had, leave the bad, and improve yourself and your current organization.

Yes. What he said. But if you insist on staying, please lay off on addressing people by German rank titles. It's simply annoying, nicht war?

And, please don't come to a board of interested members and submit a list of multiple organizational and procedural changes that you, an outsider, believe to be essential, especially when there is extensive work to them up to and including acts of Congress. Because people are laughing at you all the more when you do that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 28,080

« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2017, 05:47:12 PM »



Some units are like fraternities. People join to be pilots or air crew, and they either never get the opportunity to get into the plane or they get treated like an outcast among the table of flight suit-wearing Top Gun fighter pilots. That's the reality of it.

I hear this a lot about opportunities to fly the plane and don't get it.  In my Squadron anyone who is qualified can rent the plane for C-12 Proficiency flights every day of the month if they want to. I simply go into WMIRS, enter the sortie and it gets released. Off I go to the airport.

Who, in these other squadrons, are telling pilots that cannot rent the plane?

So many squadrons do not meet the desired 200 hours per year with their plane. They should be excited to have a new pilot come along willing to rent the plane for proficiency flying or training and bump up the hobbs.

Only a small percentage of CAP aircrew are pilots, and only a small percentage of members are aircrew.
And of the pilots, only a small number are fully qual'ed and capable of renting an airplane, so what you say is
technically true, but not necessarily consistent.

Some of the points he's raised are valid, or at least were in years past, and there's still too much GOB in the organization,
though a lot of that has been actively excised over the last 5 or so years, however far too much of the issues raised
are personal in nature, and involve things CAP has no influence over, or ability to accommodate.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

N6RVT
Member

Posts: 67
Unit: PCR-CA-080

« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2017, 06:06:59 PM »

Abolition of flagging a member for nonrenewal/unable to join at National.

A passive 2B with no board action?  This is a thing?
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Dwight J. Dutton, CAPT CAP
Mitchell 1975 (before numbers)
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 865

« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2017, 06:14:46 PM »



Some units are like fraternities. People join to be pilots or air crew, and they either never get the opportunity to get into the plane or they get treated like an outcast among the table of flight suit-wearing Top Gun fighter pilots. That's the reality of it.

I hear this a lot about opportunities to fly the plane and don't get it.  In my Squadron anyone who is qualified can rent the plane for C-12 Proficiency flights every day of the month if they want to. I simply go into WMIRS, enter the sortie and it gets released. Off I go to the airport.

Who, in these other squadrons, are telling pilots that cannot rent the plane?

So many squadrons do not meet the desired 200 hours per year with their plane. They should be excited to have a new pilot come along willing to rent the plane for proficiency flying or training and bump up the hobbs.

Only a small percentage of CAP aircrew are pilots, ....

Yes, I was speaking specifically in regards to pilots who I have seen discussing online how they joined CAP and then rarely had the opportunity to fly the plane. However .... it may well be some who did not want to stay long enough to go through all the hoops in the beginning to get to MP status, or even just TMP. All the ISO courses and more, F5s, etc., etc..  The other side being finances. Some folks just can't afford the C-12s and just hope for some paid flying, which yes, often times does go to the more experienced members.
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MS - MO - AP - MP
FW
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,145

« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2017, 06:24:17 PM »


Abolition of flagging a member for nonrenewal/unable to join at National.

A passive 2B with no board action?  This is a thing?


NO.  However it is possible to flag a renewal if the (ex) member forgot to renew by expiration date.  Membership is a privilege, and there are still ways for a commander to end it...
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 626

« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2017, 11:55:57 PM »

Yes, I was speaking specifically in regards to pilots who I have seen discussing online how they joined CAP and then rarely had the opportunity to fly the plane.

The only grumbling I hear from pilots about plane availability, it's around the funded flying. Rarely have I seen a pilot pry a dusty bill out of their pocket to fly a CAP plane.
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Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,094
Unit: SI

« Reply #84 on: September 13, 2017, 12:34:12 AM »

And, as you seem to be a reasonable person, can you view my proposals for CAP reform with a degree of professional detachment and state your opinions?

I looked at your proposed items, and my opinion on the major points is that you want CAP to not be CAP. This tells me that CAP isn't for you.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,085
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #85 on: September 13, 2017, 12:36:29 AM »

And this one is ready for the fork. It's done.

Once again, some of you have turned a potentially productive thread into a urinating competition.

Click.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Targeted Recruiting and the Re-imagining of the Senior Member Experience
 


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