Can cadets get DEMOTED?

[cantthinkof1]

Recently, my squadron has had a horde of cadets come through.  They've all promoted at the same rate, joined at the same time, etc.  All of these cadets are C/Amn and C/A1Cs.  Some of the more experienced members and I have been noticing that although some of the cadets are promoting, none of them know their drill, proper wear of the uniform, customs and courtesies...which are REQUIRED for promotion.  Is it possible for cadets to be demoted?  If a cadet somehow promotes to C/SrA and doesn't know how to perform a proper right flank, something is up with these cadets promoting or maybe it's just how the Flight Sergeant taught drill.  I just started knowing this when at the Wreaths Across America ceremony, some C/Amn had no idea how to march, etc.  On Monday, I just found out that I was to be the new Flight Sergeant.  I plan on teaching these cadets, not demoting them if possible.  But my question is, if a cadet cannot show they've earned their rank, can they be demoted???

[lordmonar]

Basicly......yes.

But more to the point......is if they don't know the required stuff for their rank they should not be getting promoted in the first place.

Both promotion and demotion power lays with the commander or deputy commander for cadets.

You should be bringing up your concerns with them.

[cantthinkof1]

Basicly......yes.

But more to the point......is if they don't know the required stuff for their rank they should not be getting promoted in the first place.

Both promotion and demotion power lays with the commander or deputy commander for cadets.

You should be bringing up your concerns with them.

Yea that's what I'm saying about "Why are they promoting in the first place?"  As new Flight Sergeant, I'm going to make SURE they can pass their drill tests for promotion.  Idk yet though, next week is my first week of actually taking control of the flight.

[Bakchos215]

Short Answer:  Yes as outlined in CAPR 52-16 Cadet Program Management Para 5-14.  However it seems to me the real problem is the promoting of Cadets who are not ready.  Rather than punishing the Cadets I like that your are willing to train your Cadets.  Thats the RIGHT Answer.   :clap:

[Eclipse]

Yea that's what I'm saying about "Why are they promoting in the first place?"  As new Flight Sergeant, I'm going to make SURE they can pass their drill tests for promotion.  Idk yet though, next week is my first week of actually taking control of the flight.

Concentrate on working with those who struggle, and don't worry about things that are out of your control.

Presumably you are a new NCO yourself, and these other cadets are not that far behind you.  Ask questions of, and take your
queues from your flight commander and other staff.  leave any issues of grade to them.

If a cadet who is not ready is promoted anyway, that's not your problem. 

Your problem is a cadet who isn't promoted because of something you needed to teach him.

[MSG Mac]

A demotion under 52-16 requires not only the Commander, but is appealable to the next higher echelon. It is viewed as a result of a violation of regs. In addition the grade cannot be restored until the minimum time in grade is served in the lower grade. But why are you punishing the cadets for the misfeasance of the CC or DCC for not enforcing the standards? Instead you should be teaching your cadets to drill to standard and not recommending their promotions, until they can.

[cantthinkof1]

A demotion under 52-16 requires not only the Commander, but is appealable to the next higher echelon. It is viewed as a result of a violation of regs. In addition the grade cannot be restored until the minimum time in grade is served in the lower grade. But why are you punishing the cadets for the misfeasance of the CC or DCC for not enforcing the standards? Instead you should be teaching your cadets to drill to standard and not recommending their promotions, until they can.

If you haven''t read the entire thread, I have not been teaching the cadets, I was just put on staff just a few days ago.

[Eclipse]

While leadership is not about making friends, walking in and suggesting cadets be demoted for poor performance isn't going to help your acceptance.  Cadet demotions should never be taken lightly, they can literally tun off a cadet permanently, and then of course you also need to deal with parents, too.

Your best bet is to work to help them move forward and not worry about what may have been doe in the past.

[abdsp51]

While leadership is not about making friends, walking in and suggesting cadets be demoted for poor performance isn't going to help your acceptance.  Cadet demotions should never be taken lightly, they can literally tun off a cadet permanently, and then of course you also need to deal with parents, too.

Your best bet is to work to help them move forward and not worry about what may have been doe in the past.

+1

[N Harmon]

Demotions can only be made for cause. You can not demote a cadet because he/she can't do a proper right flank. In fact, if a cadet can do every other movement, then he/she passes the drill test for achievement two.

[lordmonar]

Demotions can only be made for cause. You can not demote a cadet because he/she can't do a proper right flank. In fact, if a cadet can do every other movement, then he/she passes the drill test for achievement two.

Not knowing the required material for a particular rank.......could be "for cause".....but you are right that is is just easier to acomplish the retraining and move on.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Demotions can only be made for cause. You can not demote a cadet because he/she can't do a proper right flank. In fact, if a cadet can do every other movement, then he/she passes the drill test for achievement two.

Not knowing the required material for a particular rank.......could be "for cause".....but you are right that is is just easier to acomplish the retraining and move on.

True. But if they WERE promoted, then the only real fair way to fix it is to halt promotions UNTIL they learn what they weren't taught. This isn't a follower failure, this is the leadership failure. It falls on the promoting authority.

[CAPAPRN]

You need to think more about the leadership challenge of leading rather than the paperwork challenge of managing demotions. Look, I served in the USN, and I cannot imagine a recruit commander thinking of ways to fail people. If you want your people to excel, show excellence. As said above, if the situation is as you describe (as opposed to being also a perceptual problem on your part) it is a leadership problem- not a followership problem. Where were you when these cadets were in need of initial mentoring? Unless you just fell off the turnip truck why aren't you looking at yourself instead of everyone else?

[Майор Хаткевич]

You need to think more about the leadership challenge of leading rather than the paperwork challenge of managing demotions. Look, I served in the USN, and I cannot imagine a recruit commander thinking of ways to fail people. If you want your people to excel, show excellence. As said above, if the situation is as you describe (as opposed to being also a perceptual problem on your part) it is a leadership problem- not a followership problem. Where were you when these cadets were in need of initial mentoring? Unless you just fell off the turnip truck why aren't you looking at yourself instead of everyone else?

Read the OP again. He was just appointed to the job. Work the problem from within, don't punish the cadets for their leaders failures.

[lordmonar]

Demotions can only be made for cause. You can not demote a cadet because he/she can't do a proper right flank. In fact, if a cadet can do every other movement, then he/she passes the drill test for achievement two.

Not knowing the required material for a particular rank.......could be "for cause".....but you are right that is is just easier to acomplish the retraining and move on.

True. But if they WERE promoted, then the only real fair way to fix it is to halt promotions UNTIL they learn what they weren't taught. This isn't a follower failure, this is the leadership failure. It falls on the promoting authority.

I beleive that is what I said.........

[Майор Хаткевич]

And I agreed. I don't, however, see it as "cause" if someone tried. The only demotion for this "cause" would be of the leadership, not those who were told they met the standard, and then got slapped for it because their leaders didn't uphold the standard.

[lordmonar]

And I agreed. I don't, however, see it as "cause" if someone tried. The only demotion for this "cause" would be of the leadership, not those who were told they met the standard, and then got slapped for it because their leaders didn't uphold the standard.

Oh I agree....whole heartedly......but let's say for an extreem example...and in no way saying it applies to the OP's situation.

Squadron X was found to be way way off the beaten track as far as CP goes.....commander is fired along with his staff (and the group CP guy as well IMHO)....so new commander with with CDC comes in and finds that across the board the cadets are just not up to the ranks they wear........It may be.....may be.....more effecient to demote everyone who is not up to the standards......and retrain them.

Yes it is not their fault....but we punished those individuals as well......but we need to correct everything so that they are in fact wearing the rank that they are qualified for (or as close as we can get...let's say some 2Lt who can't even do WB drill....he can only be demoted 3 ranks).

As I said...not my first choice for "fixing" the situation.....but most certainly should be a tool to consider if you are ever faced with such a major foul up.

A less extreem, more realistic scenrio.....you get Cadet 2d Lt from Squaron X...he transfered to you because squadron X was just so screwed up they closed it down......now he really, really does not know his stuff...drill is sub par, leadership sub par........for him to "make up" his defecient training....he has got to go back to being an in-flight cadet.......in a fligh commanded by a C/SSgt or C/MSgt in a squadron "commanded" by a C/CMSgt.     Maybe demoting him to C/SMSgt (three acheivements) would be less stressful on the rest of the cadet organisation.  Again not a perfect solution.....but certainly a doable one.   You can soften the blow by explaining why the demotion and that it is not a punsihment but a way of making the system work better.

And remember.........you don't have to "reearn" the acheivments.  Promotion is solely based on commander's discretion that the individual is progressing to correct their deficincies.

Again.....not necessarily the way I would do it.....but certainly an alternitive to keeping a sub-par 2d Lt in grade for six months as he fixes his problems.

YMMV.

[Майор Хаткевич]

 We have trouble with the "heavy" talk for SMs who should not  wear AF uniforms, in most cases that just wouldnt happen and chances are the cadet will either quit or shop around for a different unit.

[LGM30GMCC]

And remember.........you don't have to "reearn" the acheivments.  Promotion is solely based on commander's discretion that the individual is progressing to correct their deficincies.

CAPR 52-16 Para 5-14b disagrees with you on that one. "The cadet will need to re-earn the demoted achievements and awards through satisfactory performance over a period of  60 days per achievement or award (For example, a cadet who had been insubordinate would need to show a willingness to follow directions and CAP rules)."

You demote that C/2d Lt to a C/SMSgt and you set them back a minimum of 6 months. No matter how awesome they become in that 6 months, they cannot make up that time in any way. Likely better to initially hold them at C/2d Lt and just not promote them unless they can speed up the process. You actually demote them and they just were horribly trained and now they are being punished even if they are doing great.

[cantthinkof1]

Thank you for answering my question.