The Davis Award

[flyguy06]

I don't mean to sound argumentative when I say this, so please don't take it the wrong way.

Above you noted that you didn't want this to be a discussion about race, but in your first post, you specifically said, "I really appreciate Civil Air Patrol for naming a major award after Gen Ben O. Davis. It shows their progressiveness. But, I wish they would honor more African American aviation pioneers."

Then later you say that the inner city kids need different role models than the white suburbia kids because they "look like them."

All these comments, and the lead in discussion are specifically about race.  The same arguments could be made about the Asian-American kids, Native-American kids, Latino kids, etc needing role models that "look like them."

It just seems to me that you can't say "we need our organization to more actively teach about black aviation pioneers" without it becoming a discussion about why race matters in this situation.

In the case of CAP awards and such, I would assume that those that are used were those who made the most significant/memorable achievements in aviation/CAP history.

If you look at the Cadet Achievements (I'm removing the Feik and Armstrong because they were added later...)

Curry - First CAP National Commander
Arnold - First 5 Star in the Air Force, one of the first rated military pilots, instructed by the Wright Brothers, Commander of the US Army Air Corps, etc.
Wright Brothers - First sustained, powered, heavier than air flight.
Rickenbacker - "Ace of Aces"
Linberg - First transatlantic non-stop flight
Doolittle - Bombing of Japan, medal of honor recipient
Goddard - "Father of Modern Rocketry"
Mitchell - Air Power Advocate, proved aviations abilities in combat
Earhart - Female aviatrix, "most famous female aviation pioneer"
Spaatz - First Chief of Staff of the Air Force

Added Later:
Feik - High Time (5,000+ hrs) aviation engineer during WWII
Armstrong - First man to walk on the moon
Eaker - Architect of Daylight Precision Bombing in WWII, Commander in Chief of the Mediterranean Allied Air Forces, etc.

If you look at all these people, they are "key players" and played vital roles in the development of aviation during our own period of creation and development.  I don't think anyone can argue that these people did not make significant contributions to the world of aviation.

Naming things, including special readings, etc become difficult because you'll always exclude someone.  Do you include "The First Pilot" or "The First Black Pilot?"  Do you include the person with the most aerial kills in WWII or the black person with the most aerial kills in WWII?

Personally, I think that teaching about aviation pioneers is great and definitely don't discourage you from doing so.  In the meantime, you could do things in conjunction with "designated" recognition periods, like "black history month" and focus the AE lesson on black aviation pioneers - Bessie Coleman, Tuskegee Airmen, Willa Brown, Benjamin Davis, etc.

Good ideas jimmy.  however the only problem with "designated" months is afterward people tend to forget until the next year. CAP has always been a progressive organization and Iwould like to see that continue.

[jimmydeanno]

^Thanks.  The "month" thing was really a suggestion as a way to incorporate those people during times that most people would be thinking about it (it is why they have them, right?).  This isn't to say that you aren't more than welcome to bring up black aviation pioneers during Asian-American history month or even around the Fourth of July holiday. 

Just offering suggestions on how to incorporate the message you're trying to deliver (leadership and achievement can be found anywhere, even in people who have similar life experiences as you) to your audience (your audience just happens to be inner city black kids).

Good Luck!

[Spike]

I wish the world was lije that . I really do. but unfortunantly it isnt.I dont ave the answer. I just know what I see and hear daily.

I know what I see and hear everyday too.  Your Point Sir?

I'msorry if I offended anyone. But If you havent walked a mile in my shoes then really....... nevermind

.

Really?  Are we going to begin playing that card?  You and I spoke via PM, and I know you are an educated and well off person, not to mention you are a Commissioned Military Officer.  Your shoes appear to be nice ones from the offset. 

I dont want this to get out of hand.

How could it?  You brought race into the discussion.  Race discussions never get out of hand.   

You folks dont understand and I really cant explain it and I wont try to.

"You Folks".  YOU FOLKS!?!  Reverse discrimination is still discrimination.  I am not a folk, nor am I part of some group of "Folks".

Everyone has a hard life.  It is not a perfect world.  We can only make the best of what we have.  You did, and you came from the same place as your "inner-city" kids.  How did you do it?  Use yourself as the example! 

When they start adding people based purely on skin color to our leadership curriculum, WE ALL have lost. 

So, until you have walked in my shoes, seen where I come from, what I did to change my life, what I do for my family, how I live my life and contribute to society.....lets call it a draw.   

[flyguy06]

I achieved what I did because of my parents puting me in the right situations and around the right people. Everyone isnt that lucky as i was. I was blessed. Secondly I didnt come from the inner city. My dad was inthe military and I was raised in the military.


Just because I say "you folks" you have no idea what i referring to. I am referring to you folks that wanted to start a race discussion in this thread.

Listen. My post was simply saying I am glad that CAP named an award after Ben O Davis and I wish they would name more awards after more African American aviation piloneers. its as simple as that. But some folks read to deep in it and decided to turn the discussion into something about race and is it fair or whatever. Not my intention. The majority of awards in CAP are named after white aviation piloneers. thats a fact. I just asked if they could name some after African American aviation pilonners. Why is this a difficult thing to grasp? Heck, Willa Brown was a CAP member yet we have no award named after her.

See I think peole get too sensative about the subject of race. All Idid was mention African American And all of a suddne all these folks (oh dear I said folks) come out and start saying race. Its not that serious to me guys.


I will say though that I am a litle disappointed. I always had it in my mind that CAP members were progressiva and open minded. (andmany that I know are) but after reading some of the comments I am a little disappointed. But I guess you have a little bit of everyone in every organization. Its all good though.
Everyone relax. CAPTalkers are wayyyyyy tooo serious and too deep.

[Spike]

I would like to see more awards named after Asian-Americans and Latino-Americans and Women. 

You want African Americans, I want women.  I don't care what color women, just women! 

This discussion can go around in circles until 2012.  Lets just say we all want to represent our own groups in CAP by showcasing those "like us". 

I understand where you stand, but when you post a statement like you did, you have to be prepared for what follows.  I would hate to see CAP start naming awards and achievements after people based solely on color.  Now, the first African American AF General would be appropriate as an award name, in my opinion, as would the first Woman General, the First Latino General, the First Asian General etc.

[Trung Si Ma]

I think that the next cadet award (achievement, COY, etc) should be named after Rich Anderson, BGen, CAP / COL, USAF (Ret) / Holder of all cadet and senior awards, former CAP/CC, Master Observer, Etc, Etc.  A viable link to our CAP past and still around to mentor the award winners for all things CAP (except acting)

[Flying Pig]

^Id go for that one.  But I really think there should be more awards named after bald white men in Central CA.  Can anyone tell me who the first bald white law enforcement helicopter pilot was in Central CA?


I didnt thing so.

[DBlair]

I don't mean to sound argumentative when I say this, so please don't take it the wrong way.

Above you noted that you didn't want this to be a discussion about race, but in your first post, you specifically said, "I really appreciate Civil Air Patrol for naming a major award after Gen Ben O. Davis. It shows their progressiveness. But, I wish they would honor more African American aviation pioneers."

Then later you say that the inner city kids need different role models than the white suburbia kids because they "look like them."

All these comments, and the lead in discussion are specifically about race.  The same arguments could be made about the Asian-American kids, Native-American kids, Latino kids, etc needing role models that "look like them."

It just seems to me that you can't say "we need our organization to more actively teach about black aviation pioneers" without it becoming a discussion about why race matters in this situation.

In the case of CAP awards and such, I would assume that those that are used were those who made the most significant/memorable achievements in aviation/CAP history.

If you look at the Cadet Achievements (I'm removing the Feik and Armstrong because they were added later...)

Curry - First CAP National Commander
Arnold - First 5 Star in the Air Force, one of the first rated military pilots, instructed by the Wright Brothers, Commander of the US Army Air Corps, etc.
Wright Brothers - First sustained, powered, heavier than air flight.
Rickenbacker - "Ace of Aces"
Linberg - First transatlantic non-stop flight
Doolittle - Bombing of Japan, medal of honor recipient
Goddard - "Father of Modern Rocketry"
Mitchell - Air Power Advocate, proved aviations abilities in combat
Earhart - Female aviatrix, "most famous female aviation pioneer"
Spaatz - First Chief of Staff of the Air Force

Added Later:
Feik - High Time (5,000+ hrs) aviation engineer during WWII
Armstrong - First man to walk on the moon
Eaker - Architect of Daylight Precision Bombing in WWII, Commander in Chief of the Mediterranean Allied Air Forces, etc.

If you look at all these people, they are "key players" and played vital roles in the development of aviation during our own period of creation and development.  I don't think anyone can argue that these people did not make significant contributions to the world of aviation.

Naming things, including special readings, etc become difficult because you'll always exclude someone.  Do you include "The First Pilot" or "The First Black Pilot?"  Do you include the person with the most aerial kills in WWII or the black person with the most aerial kills in WWII?

Personally, I think that teaching about aviation pioneers is great and definitely don't discourage you from doing so.  In the meantime, you could do things in conjunction with "designated" recognition periods, like "black history month" and focus the AE lesson on black aviation pioneers - Bessie Coleman, Tuskegee Airmen, Willa Brown, Benjamin Davis, etc.

Good ideas jimmy.  however the only problem with "designated" months is afterward people tend to forget until the next year. CAP has always been a progressive organization and Iwould like to see that continue.

Just curious...

You seem to have a desire to continue Black History Month year-round (from the way you worded your post) so that people don't forget the contributions made by those of the Black race. In a full program and barely enough time to cover much more than basics, how would you like to fit this into the schedule/program?

I absolutely agree that Blacks have contributed to the military and our great nation in many ways- as have Women, Jews, Hispanics, Asians, and every other sub-group in society. The question I have is why the program should be overtly focused on Black contribution when the last time I checked, Blacks were just over 12% of the American population. Why should one group get such a focus and not another sub-group with many more people?

How about we present the program and give credit where it is due without the need to overtly focus on one race or another. Focus on history of who did what, etc. If someone did X, then teach that, if they did Y, then teach that, but why does it have to be made into a race issue?

I understand what you mean about wanting to motivate the inner-city kids. There is nothing that says you can't add to the program and have classes and discussions that may resonate better with them. My suggestion would be to present the usual CAP program as it is, and then also supplement it with classes/discussions on topics you feel would be especially beneficial to them. Likewise, as you yourself mentioned, present yourself as a real example of what can be accomplished.

I do a lot of speaking in the community on a variety of topics, and as expected, I tailor my speeches to the audience and what would hit home with them. You should do the same with your cadets- through classes, presentations, and discussions, motivate them and present yourself as a role model.

You seem to have had a successful life and I'm sure you have many lessons to teach these inner-city Cadets. I applaud you for putting forth such effort to mentor them to likewise be successful.

That being said, I do not think we need to restructure the entire national Cadet Program to largely focus on one group with society- especially not for a group that accounts for roughly 12% of the American population. Nationwide, lets teach history as it is without a need to break America down into polarizing sub-groups. If someone accomplishes something and they happen to be black, then so be it. If they happen to be white, then so be it as well.

Rather than focusing on race or hyphenated-American groupings, how about we all consider ourselves one single group: American.

[flyguy06]

I would like to see more awards named after Asian-Americans and Latino-Americans and Women. 

You want African Americans, I want women.  I don't care what color women, just women! 

This discussion can go around in circles until 2012.  Lets just say we all want to represent our own groups in CAP by showcasing those "like us". 

I understand where you stand, but when you post a statement like you did, you have to be prepared for what follows.  I would hate to see CAP start naming awards and achievements after people based solely on color.  Now, the first African American AF General would be appropriate as an award name, in my opinion, as would the first Woman General, the First Latino General, the First Asian General etc.

Its interesting we are even having this discussion. People go out of their way here and other places to recognize the achievements of women in aviation. We have several awards in CAP named after women yet it didnt cause this much discussion or disturbance as my little suggestion. But I get beat up for asking if we could make an award for Willa Brown a CAP member or Eugene bullard, a famous AMERIACN aviation piloneer

[flyguy06]

I don't mean to sound argumentative when I say this, so please don't take it the wrong way.

Above you noted that you didn't want this to be a discussion about race, but in your first post, you specifically said, "I really appreciate Civil Air Patrol for naming a major award after Gen Ben O. Davis. It shows their progressiveness. But, I wish they would honor more African American aviation pioneers."

Then later you say that the inner city kids need different role models than the white suburbia kids because they "look like them."

All these comments, and the lead in discussion are specifically about race.  The same arguments could be made about the Asian-American kids, Native-American kids, Latino kids, etc needing role models that "look like them."

It just seems to me that you can't say "we need our organization to more actively teach about black aviation pioneers" without it becoming a discussion about why race matters in this situation.

In the case of CAP awards and such, I would assume that those that are used were those who made the most significant/memorable achievements in aviation/CAP history.

If you look at the Cadet Achievements (I'm removing the Feik and Armstrong because they were added later...)

Curry - First CAP National Commander
Arnold - First 5 Star in the Air Force, one of the first rated military pilots, instructed by the Wright Brothers, Commander of the US Army Air Corps, etc.
Wright Brothers - First sustained, powered, heavier than air flight.
Rickenbacker - "Ace of Aces"
Linberg - First transatlantic non-stop flight
Doolittle - Bombing of Japan, medal of honor recipient
Goddard - "Father of Modern Rocketry"
Mitchell - Air Power Advocate, proved aviations abilities in combat
Earhart - Female aviatrix, "most famous female aviation pioneer"
Spaatz - First Chief of Staff of the Air Force

Added Later:
Feik - High Time (5,000+ hrs) aviation engineer during WWII
Armstrong - First man to walk on the moon
Eaker - Architect of Daylight Precision Bombing in WWII, Commander in Chief of the Mediterranean Allied Air Forces, etc.

If you look at all these people, they are "key players" and played vital roles in the development of aviation during our own period of creation and development.  I don't think anyone can argue that these people did not make significant contributions to the world of aviation.

Naming things, including special readings, etc become difficult because you'll always exclude someone.  Do you include "The First Pilot" or "The First Black Pilot?"  Do you include the person with the most aerial kills in WWII or the black person with the most aerial kills in WWII?

Personally, I think that teaching about aviation pioneers is great and definitely don't discourage you from doing so.  In the meantime, you could do things in conjunction with "designated" recognition periods, like "black history month" and focus the AE lesson on black aviation pioneers - Bessie Coleman, Tuskegee Airmen, Willa Brown, Benjamin Davis, etc.

Good ideas jimmy.  however the only problem with "designated" months is afterward people tend to forget until the next year. CAP has always been a progressive organization and Iwould like to see that continue.

Just curious...

You seem to have a desire to continue Black History Month year-round (from the way you worded your post) so that people don't forget the contributions made by those of the Black race. In a full program and barely enough time to cover much more than basics, how would you like to fit this into the schedule/program?

I absolutely agree that Blacks have contributed to the military and our great nation in many ways- as have Women, Jews, Hispanics, Asians, and every other sub-group in society. The question I have is why the program should be overtly focused on Black contribution when the last time I checked, Blacks were just over 12% of the American population. Why should one group get such a focus and not another sub-group with many more people?

How about we present the program and give credit where it is due without the need to overtly focus on one race or another. Focus on history of who did what, etc. If someone did X, then teach that, if they did Y, then teach that, but why does it have to be made into a race issue?

I understand what you mean about wanting to motivate the inner-city kids. There is nothing that says you can't add to the program and have classes and discussions that may resonate better with them. My suggestion would be to present the usual CAP program as it is, and then also supplement it with classes/discussions on topics you feel would be especially beneficial to them. Likewise, as you yourself mentioned, present yourself as a real example of what can be accomplished.

I do a lot of speaking in the community on a variety of topics, and as expected, I tailor my speeches to the audience and what would hit home with them. You should do the same with your cadets- through classes, presentations, and discussions, motivate them and present yourself as a role model.

You seem to have had a successful life and I'm sure you have many lessons to teach these inner-city Cadets. I applaud you for putting forth such effort to mentor them to likewise be successful.

That being said, I do not think we need to restructure the entire national Cadet Program to largely focus on one group with society- especially not for a group that accounts for roughly 12% of the American population. Nationwide, lets teach history as it is without a need to break America down into polarizing sub-groups. If someone accomplishes something and they happen to be black, then so be it. If they happen to be white, then so be it as well.

Rather than focusing on race or hyphenated-American groupings, how about we all consider ourselves one single group: American.

That would be great if everyone did that but unfortunantly that is not reality. You know what? This whole thing has been taken out of context. Ansd I really dont want to contiune it. I am really disappointed especially with a few folks I thought were well nevermind.

Come to my squadron and you will undertand what I am dealing with but you wont so forget it.