Retests & Testing Opportunities

Started by MIKE, March 15, 2005, 12:13:38 AM

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MIKE

What are your thoughts on retests and testing opportunities?

Quote from: CAPR 52-161-3. b. 3) a) Retests. If a cadet fails the CPFT, he or she may retest on another day. When retesting, all events
required for their physical fitness category must be completed and passed.

Quote from: CAPR 52-162-2. a. 2) Squadron commanders will provide opportunities for cadets to test for their achievements at least every 30 days.

1. Do you think cadets should be able to retest again on the same night if he or she fails a test unless prohibited as indicated?

2. Would you allow cadets to test on any night (Meeting night or otherwise.) provided a TCO was available, or would you set aside one testing night a month for Leadership and AE testing and one for the CPFT?

3. Would you permit cadets to retest on another non-testing night should they fail? Perhaps at the next meeting or even the very next day.

My thoughts later.



Mike Johnston

whatevah

here's how my squadron meeting schedule went...

1st Week - Blues, Leadership & Testing (written)
2nd Week - BDUs, & Aerospace
3rd Week - BDUs, Misc Classes/Activities & Retesting (written)
4th Week - PT Uniform, PT Test and physical activities

Well, the 3rd week was supposed to be for retesting only, but it eventually turned into just another testing night, with a half-hour block of time devoted for testing.  PT Tests are only done once a month.

If you want to take a written test on a testing night, we'd have a sign-up sheet next to the login sheet at the front door.  During/after opening formation, the Testing officer would get the necessary tests and take them to our testing room.
Jerry Horn
CAPTalk Co-Admin

MIKE

Quote from: whatevah on March 15, 2005, 12:33:43 AM
here's how my squadron meeting schedule went...

I'm not really asking for what your squadron did/does with regard to local policy on testing and retesting, but rather what your own personal thoughts on the questions I posed above.  You may of course base your opinion on your own experiences with your own or other squadrons in your area.
Mike Johnston

whatevah

that is my opinion about how it should be done. ;)

written tests on one week... retest two weeks later.  pt tests once a month.

pt scores usually take more than a week to get higher (unless the person had a bad cold or something).  so, giving them a chance to redo a pt test the next week isn't going to provide a much higher score.  and, two weeks seems an adequate time for retests, it ensures that if they pass it, it's from studying, and not going off their memory from the last time they took the test.

"1. Do you think cadets should be able to retest again on the same night if he or she fails a test unless prohibited as indicated?"   no. speaking as a former cadet, they'll just be running from memory on what they got wrong the last time, and quick cramming.

"2. Would you allow cadets to test on any night (Meeting night or otherwise.) provided a TCO was available, or would you set aside one testing night a month for Leadership and AE testing and one for the CPFT?"  see above, specific nights for written tests and pt tests

"3. Would you permit cadets to retest on another non-testing night should they fail? Perhaps at the next meeting or even the very next day."  as above, retest on a regular date, so everybody has the equal chance.
Jerry Horn
CAPTalk Co-Admin

abysmal

Let me add some fuel to this fire.
What do you think of having a Cadet take a test that you know for CERTAIN he will fail?
I came across an unusual proceedure last night wherin a cadet was encouraged to take the next test that he was allowed to take, even though he had not yet begun to study/review/learn the material.
He was told to take the test as a way to learn it in advance.
seemed wrong to me.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

whatevah

I think it's wrong and cheating, however... the regs don't disallow it.

the process is (for those who haven't seen it) that a cadet takes a test "cold", without studying, so when he finally does study, he'll remember the test questions and pay more attention to those areas.

That's the 2nd-most popular reason for taking a test when everybody knows he's not going to pass.  The most popular reason... he didn't study, and doesn't care if he passes or not.  In this case, he may take the test two or three times and still not pass it.  Now, the seniors start noticing, but assume that he studied, and assign a "mentor" to him from the cadet staff.  ::)   I've seen that happen too many times.

The best way to give cadets a good chance of passing the tests, is give familiarization classes. Have a cadet senior NCO or officer give a class covering the important principles covered in one specific chapter.  It's basically a study session, but if done well, the information will stick with them longer than the couple weeks until the testing night, by drawing parallels for the information in ways the cadets can relate to.
Jerry Horn
CAPTalk Co-Admin

abysmal

Glad to hear I am not the only one who frowns on this practise.

I thought it was a bit odd, but was told that is the way things are done.

Seems that the only goal is to get the Cadets to pass the test and keep moving them along.

I suggested that if they are having such a hard time passing this particular test, then it is we the seniors that are failing to make sure they are getting taught properly so they are better prepared for the test.

Sigh...
Sometimes I feel like a lone voice crying in the wilderness.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

arajca

Something we tried on testing night - those cadets who wanted to test could. Those who didn't were assigned to group study or to mentor other cadets. Next test time, we had a much improved pass rate.

abysmal

My gutt feeling right now is that we need to slow down the testing cycle and spend some more time on preperation.

All of the Cadets seem to be in a big rush to test, and the failure rate seems entirely too high as a result of it.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

CAPSGT

I agree that more time needs to be spent on preparation.  Back when I first visited it 3 years ago, the squadron I am at now used to have testing weekly for anyone who wanted it.  Now we are down to 1 testing night a month.  The cadets are asking for more opportunities to test, but the commander and I have decided that if we have winding up with a 2/7 passing rate each month, it's not worth the extra time it is taking to conduct testing (and drawing testing staff away from other duties they may have).

We have instituted a new policy in which we are going to go over the material with any cadet failing a test.  To get it started, it is the commander and I (both former cadets) doing this until our new cadet officers are ready to really start mentoring.
MICHAEL A. CROCKETT, Lt Col, CAP
Assistant Communications Officer, Wicomico Composite Squadron

abysmal

Do you see much use of the Study Guides or any of the Online Pre-Tests being used by your Cadets.

So far as I can tell, it sure "seems" like all of my cadets are taking these tests "Cold" and NOT making use of some really good Pre-Testing Tools.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

MIKE

Quote from: abysmal on March 16, 2005, 02:55:51 PM
So far as I can tell, it sure "seems" like all of my cadets are taking these tests "Cold" and NOT making use of some really good Pre-Testing Tools.

What are you doing for pre-test mentoring or counseling (Note: Not wall to wall counseling.  ;) )... A my previous unit cadets (including myself) were required to attend a counseling session the week before at least the first attempt of a leadership or AE test... The cadet would be quizzed on topics in the chapter(s) studied... It was done in such as to determine if the cadet had indeed studied the material... Any questions on the material could be cleared up during the session.  If it was determined that they cadet had not studied or did not understand the material testing privileges were denied and more counseling ordered.  Senior cadets often assisted with counseling sessions for junior cadets also as opposed to just senior member officers.  Under supervision of course.

My current squadron is much the same although cadets are less involved with mentoring sessions and they call it mentoring as opposed to counseling.
Mike Johnston

abysmal

We are not currently doing ANYTHING of any sort.
The Cadet is allowed to take any test they qualify for with NO pre-screening whatsoever.

And as you can guess, the failure rate is VERY high.
Which is why I am trying to implement something to slow them down a bit and get them better prepared to pass on the first go around.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

MIKE

As promised here are my thoughts on the matter, maybe they will breath some new life into the topic as it appears pretty much dead.

Quote from: MIKE on March 15, 2005, 12:13:38 AM
1. Do you think cadets should be able to retest again on the same night if he or she fails a test unless prohibited as indicated?

Nope, cadets have little or no time to study and are most likely going to fail the test again, provided they are not shown the graded test afterword... If they are shown the test they are most likely just taking another wack at the questions they got wrong.  I'd consider this a test compromise as is.

Quote from: MIKE on March 15, 2005, 12:13:38 AM
2. Would you allow cadets to test on any night (Meeting night or otherwise.) provided a TCO was available, or would you set aside one testing night a month for Leadership and AE testing and one for the CPFT?

I would set schedule AE and leadership testing once monthly, likewise for the CPFT, but on another meeting night.

Quote from: MIKE on March 15, 2005, 12:13:38 AM
3. Would you permit cadets to retest on another non-testing night should they fail? Perhaps at the next meeting or even the very next day.

I would prefer not to... Providing only one testing opportunity per month creates an incentive for cadets to study better for tests and gives them more time to study between tests... It also allows more time to be devoted to other activities.
Mike Johnston

Pylon

I have to agree that retesting less often is better.  Since there is a requirement by CAPR 52-16 to have testing a minimum every 30 days, I would suggest just that - once a month.

The reasons have been well articulated above by others, but I'll restate the ones I agree upon.  Retesting the same night has no value to the cadet's education.  If they pass it the second time, it was because it was a crap shoot.  They haven't learnt anything new.  Even if you review the test with the cadet first, they are learning how to pass the test, not learning the material.  I'm a huge opponent of learning material with the test in mind.  First, get a firm grasp on the whole of the material and you won't need to worry about the test.

In addition, testing pulls those cadets out of whatever other activities your squadron has going on that evening.  This should be minimized.  A cadet will be better off participating in that evening's worthwhile activities, instead of spending a portion of every meeting away from the group tinkering away at a test they've failed several times.

One month gives a cadet plenty of time to study, if they so choose.  Some weeks can be busy, but between four weekends and plenty of weekday evenings there's bound to be some quality time to go over the one chapter they are working on at the time.  Besides, if the cadets have the knowledge that (if they fail) they can't retake it nor be eligible for promotion for another month it may motivate them more to pass it the first time.  With a weekly or same-night system, the attitude can easily change to "Ah well, if I fail it, I'll just take another stab at it."

Sure, there are extenuating circumstances, like allowing cadets testing for the Spaatz who are nearing 21 to retake their failed portions as necessary so they earn the award before their birthday.  However, special circumstances like these do not apply to the vast majority of cadets who take a test, bomb it, and jump right back in to take it again without so much as cracking the book or batting an eye.

Education is what the focus should be on, not the testing frequency.  With the proper education and by instilling effective studying and mentoring systems, the need to retest would (ideally) be at a minimum.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

arajca

One exception I made to the one time per month. I had a cadet who couldn't break 60 on a test. After some discussion, the commander and I decided to have the test read to the cadet (by me). The cadet passed with an 80. I suspect something might be amiss, but I am not in a position nor do I have the knowledge to comfirm this. We'll see how the cadet does next time.

abysmal

I have decided to try something new.
Not I only do I want my cadets to pass the first time around, I am going to award the cadet with the highest test scores on each testing night with something.

This time around I bought to "kick-Butt" T-Shirts from Brigade Quartermaster.
The 2 cadets who PASS the test (any test that is) the first time around, and do so with the highest score on testing night will win the shirts.

Will see if this proves to offer any additional motivation.
IF it works, then I will up the anty as time goes by and entice them to work harder by offering some rewards.
With time the rewards will cut back and we will work on self motivation as a replacement.
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

MIKE

* Bump *

I thought I would try and revive this discussion with this post off of CadetStuff:

Quote from: Ender Wiggin/begin rant

CAPR 52-16, 1-3, c. Leadership. wrote:
The Leadership: 2000 and Beyond text establishes procedures for a successful leadership training program. The unit's testing officer ensures that the cadets are tested promptly when they are ready.


This would seem to indicate to me that it is the testing officers (or squadron commander's in the absence of a testing officer) responsibility to make sure that cadets test as soon as possible when they are ready.

As we all know, cadets may NOT test ahead beyond a certain point.

CAPR 52-16, 2-2, a., 2) wrote:
Squadron commanders will provide opportunities for cadets to test for their achievements at least every 30 days.


The bolded "will" in the above quote has the equivalent meaning of MUST.

The bolded "achievements" in the above quote is plural for obvious reasons. Limiting a cadet to one written exam a month, "every 30 days", is a crime and should be taken to the next echelon IG if problem persists. If submitted to the next echelon IG, be sure to site the 52-16.


CAPR 52-16, 2-2, a., 3) wrote:
Cadets may not test beyond their next achievement. For example, a C/TSgt may take the Lindbergh Achievement tests, but not the Doolittle Achievement tests. The progression of the Cadet Program is shown in Figure 2-2.


Just in case anyone was wondering how far they should be allowed to test.

Why should a squadron prevent it's cadets from testing more often? In my home squadron a cadet is allowed to test every meeting; the only requirement is that they show up 30 minutes early to get the testing done before scheduled activities commence.

CAPR 52-16, 2-3, g. wrote:
Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3).


Suppose there are circumstances surrounding the testing meeting that prevent a cadet from studying the full amount that he / she may have desired. According to the situation that the author presented that cadet may not take that test again for another two months! If they fail two or at most three times, they are eligible two be kicked out of the CAP cadet program! That is absurd! Some people are reading this thinking that the cadet should have studied harder, but there are some cadets who aren't the best at studying, who may need to be mentored more. Some people forget how strained a student's schedule can be!

In my personal opinion, a cadet should be allowed to test when they are ready, if they come and take it every week for three weeks and continue to fail without improvement, then maybe it's time to prevent them for testing for the next week or two and to make sure that their cadet staff is properly mentoring them.

Cadet Oath wrote:
I pledge that I will serve faithfully in the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program, and that I will attend meetings regularly, participate actively in unit activities, obey my officers, wear my uniform properly, and advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation.


How can a cadet advance their training and education rapidly if they aren't allowed to regularly measure themselves against the standards (tests) that CAP HQ has set forth?

A leader will give their subordinates the tools to get the job done. If the job is to advance, and the leader isn't allowing them to test enough, then clearly that leader isn't very good at their job.

There are a lot of good reasons why a cadet should want to promote without being unjustly held up. Oen of the most prominent ones that come to mind are those planning to attend a military academy. CAP records go a long way for getting senatorial and congressional nominations. Any USAFA LO will tell you that in order to be a viable candidate for the academy that you should not just focus on being a member of several organizations, but a leader! The captain of your sports, mock trial, math, science, drama team. The Cadet Commander in your squadron. The Spaatz recipient for your wing. Some squadrons just do NOT understand how much they are holding up their cadets by banning them from testing!

Some would call this over dramatic, but squadrons are very capable of ruining a cadet's future if they are not led and managed correctly!

The military academy is just one of many examples that could be presented, but also one of the most common that may be experienced in a pseudo military organization such as CAP.

Another side effect of not allowing a cadet to test and promote often is that when they fail, their failure will hurt them that much more and it will get progresively more difficult to pick up after themselves. It is very easy for a cadet to get stuck in a rut and simply not test because they do not feel they can pass. If a cadet is having trouble and continues to come in a fail tests, they should be mentored NOT punished.

I have heard of horror stories. An example of one that I know for a fact happend is when a cadet officer was attending another squadron meeting and offered the opportunity to test. The cadet said that they appreciated it especially since they weren't allowed to test often at their home squadron. After taking their test, the cadet's home squadron commander found out what had happend and instituted a six month ban on all officer's testing in that squadron!

I am NOT going to mention any names and at the time did advise the cadet to write their IG and complain. A cadet's parents can even go as far as to contact any echelon director of cadet programs as a concerned parent and inform them of what is going on.

My advice to various squadrons is to wisen up because the single cadet has much more power than you know, much less a group of cadets from the same squadron writing letters to their IGs about the same problem.

CAPR 52-16, 2-2, b. Cadet Records. wrote:
The CAPF 66 serves as a record of cadet accomplishments and will be established when a cadet joins the unit. The cadet may inspect this file at any time. It will be freely given to the gaining unit commander if the cadet transfers to a new unit.


If a cadet is a member of a squadron that unjustly prevents testing and / or promotions, first I would strongly recommend writing a letter to the next echelon IG. If you do not get a response within two weeks, I would recommend writing the same letter to the IG another echelon above the previous.

The last resort is transferring squadrons. As noted above you do not need the signature of your current squadron commander to transfer. You only need the signature of the squadron commander that you plan on becoming a member of.

Ultimately this can all be prevented if a squadron will get off of its [fourth point of contact] and create more opportunities for cadets to promote, and why wouldn't a squadron want to do that for their cadets? After all, promoting cadets only helps a squadron's appearance.

/end rant

***Emphasis added***

You can follow the thread from this link.

Comments?
Mike Johnston

abysmal

The testing restriction is only on the Leadership and not on the Aerospace exams, correct?
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

MIKE

Quote from: abysmal on August 18, 2005, 09:22:16 PM
The testing restriction is only on the Leadership and not on the Aerospace exams, correct?

To what restriction are you refering... I'm not sure I follow.  ???
Mike Johnston

abysmal

CAPR 52-16, 2-2, a., 3) wrote:
Cadets may not test beyond their next achievement. For example, a C/TSgt may take the Lindbergh Achievement tests, but not the Doolittle Achievement tests. The progression of the Cadet Program is shown in Figure 2-2.

2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

MIKE

Quote from: abysmal on August 18, 2005, 09:42:57 PM
CAPR 52-16, 2-2, a., 3) wrote:
Cadets may not test beyond their next achievement. For example, a C/TSgt may take the Lindbergh Achievement tests, but not the Doolittle Achievement tests. The progression of the Cadet Program is shown in Figure 2-2.

Ah... Rodger.

Nah... It doesn't apply only to the leadership tests... If you are a C/Amn you can take the achievement 2 leadership test and the test for one of the AE modules, but could not take the achievement 3 leadership test or take another AE module test (after passing the first one) without first being promoted... Same goes for the CPFT... It only counts for your current achievement.

I guess in actual practice, you could take and pass both the leadership and aerospace tests for your next achievement on the same night and just sit around waiting on the other requirements like ML, CPFT and TIG/TIS.
Mike Johnston

abysmal

Hmmm.
I thought the ban was only on the Leadership tests and that the Cadets could test ahead on the Aerospace...
2LT Christopher M. Parrett
[red]Deputy Commander of Cadets, Cadet Programs Officer[/red]
London Bridge Composite Squadron 501
SWR-AZ-112,  Lake Havasu City, Arizona

MIKE

Quote from: abysmal on August 18, 2005, 10:07:28 PM
Hmmm.
I thought the ban was only on the Leadership tests and that the Cadets could test ahead on the Aerospace...

Negative Ghost-rider.

You could possibly take an AE module test, not pass it and then decide to take a whack at another module since you are no longer required to take the AE modules in sequence.

The AE requirements are part of the achievement.
Mike Johnston