NHQ Uniform Committee

Started by LtCol White, November 14, 2007, 06:15:02 PM

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sandman

Quote from: LtCol White on November 14, 2007, 07:43:45 PM
We are also looking at developing CAP Specific NCO chevrons for the NCO corps.


Easy: Replace the star with the tri-prop! Follow suit using subdued chevons for the utility uniforms.
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

Hawk200

Quote from: alamrcn on November 14, 2007, 06:31:42 PMI'll only drop one comment as to lessoning the cost to members:
I think we have ALL agreed that the "exclusive" to Vanguard doesn't help in this particular matter. I know there were concerns about quality and consistancy, along with the money Nat'l now gets from Vanguard sales... but this might help the "top" priority.

I'll second this one. There is no legitimate reason in the world that I should have to pay $3.20 for a nametape and $1.40 for a CAP tape when there was a time I could get them for 85 cents each in an equal quality to what Vanguard offers.

2. As for authorizing embroidered nameplates for flightsuits, send any company interested in producing them specifications for it, along with an approval for them to manufacture them. As long as the item meets spec, allow them to sell it. Having one company as an exclusive source is unethical at the least. The Hock shop has already shown that the C&D letters didn't have any effect.

3. For uniforms, standardize across the board. Any insignia that can be worn on one service uniform will go in the same place on any other service uniform. No more of "On this one it goes here, but on that one it goes there". Do the same thing with the BDU's (which I think it does already).

4. For service uniform nametags, go with a standard nameplate. Either put "Civil Air Patrol" on both or neither. I'd suggest putting the CAP under the name on them if it's kept, but thats a cosmetic thing that isn't really a priority. The only really different one should be the CSM nameplate. I know there are folks that have both AF and Corp service dress, there is no justifiable reason that they should have to have two separate nametags.

5. Start working on the ABU now, get it set up the way it should be and get AF approval before the membership gets to wear it so that when it gets adopted it doesn't change within six months of it's approval. I'd use dark blue nametapes, they don't seem to be going away, unlike the royal blue ones.

6. I'd recommend eliminating the old blue polo, the one with the white silkscreened emblem on the left. It looks cheap for a uniform. Makes a nice "advertising" shirt, but I don't think it's really an appropriate "uniform". The embroidered one looks alright with or without a name embroidered, go with it.

7. Ditch the jumpsuit. It doesn't serve any purpose that the blue BDU couldn't fulfill. It's an extraneous uniform. There's really no reason that people should be buying it just to look a little different than anyone else.

8. Flightsuits: Eliminate the "flight crews only" stipulation. If someone wants to spend 150 bucks or more on a uniform item, there's really no reason that they should invest that much money in a uniform item that they would probably only wear for a few hours monthly (if that). I don't advocate it as a sole uniform for everyone, but it shouldn't be limited to that extent. I've known of flying senior units where that was the only uniform that the majority of members in the unit even owned. There's no reason to be buying other stuff that doesn't fulfill their missions.

9. Since there is going to be an enlisted corps, work on the stripes for it now. The easiest thing to do is just make the background grey, just like the epaulets for officers. don't go crazy with adding props or circles or bells and whistles, AF personnel will know that they're different based on their color. For a manufacturer, it would a simple thread color change. Which would eliminate any "studies" to produce them that would cost extra money that CAP doesn't really have to be throwing away.

10. Allows ribbons worn four wide on shirts/blouses, and allow miniature ribbons. There are miniature medals already, mini ribbons would be easy. Our members get a lot of ribbons as it is. Give them an option to make them look neat.

11. Not really a cost reduction, but for the benefit of women: Any badge worn by a male on left pocket of shirts may be worn by a female on the right, over the nametag. The AF permitted female SP's/firefighters to wear their badge like this at one time, we should adopt that. A female should be able to wear as many badges as a male.

12. Don't know how much it would reduce any costs, if at all, but reduce the size of the ES patch. It doesn't really need to be four inches, and it's the only patch authorized in that position on BDU's. It could be smaller, and people will still know what it is.

13. Flightsuit insignia: Ditch the plastic, it's hard to get at a reasonable price. Collectors are buying it up because it's getting rare. And spending six to ten dollars on a pair of rank is ridiculous when cloth is available for a dolar or less.

Probably have a few more ideas, but that's the top ones for the moment.

I put a thread up a few months ago, and here's a link to a large number of things people would want to eliminate: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1472.msg24364#msg24364

I don't necessarily agree with all of them, but I put up what people would like to see. It would be something to start with.

LtCol White

Quote from: sandman on November 14, 2007, 07:49:00 PM
Quote from: LtCol White on November 14, 2007, 07:43:45 PM
We are also looking at developing CAP Specific NCO chevrons for the NCO corps.


Easy: Replace the star with the tri-prop! Follow suit using subdued chevons for the utility uniforms.

Already done exactly that. I have a photo showing the design I will post later this evening.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

Hawk200

Quote from: sandman on November 14, 2007, 07:49:00 PM
Quote from: LtCol White on November 14, 2007, 07:43:45 PM
We are also looking at developing CAP Specific NCO chevrons for the NCO corps.


Easy: Replace the star with the tri-prop! Follow suit using subdued chevons for the utility uniforms.

Why? Do you know how much the manufacturer is going to charge for the production "study"?

Vanguard makes stripes already. Tell them we want X stripes with a different color background than midnight blue. It would simply be changing thread color, it's not even a new design. Anyone in the military that can't tell that stripes of a different color aren't active duty Air Force probably isn't someone you want in the military.

Why make it hard? Distinctive doesn't require bells and whistles. Keep it simple (and cheaper).

Trung Si Ma

Quote from: LtCol White on November 14, 2007, 07:43:45 PM
We are also looking at developing CAP Specific NCO chevrons for the NCO corps.

As a CAP NCO, my recommendation would be to use epaulet sleeves for whatever grade insignia is selected.  The powerpoint slides that we saw here mentioned the possibility of NCO promotions and the slides would ensure uniformity of placement on dress uniforms.  Vanguard currently sells blank gray slides which would allow NCOs to pin insignia on for a CAP distinctive look.

For casual and field uniforms, I'd recommend collar insignia as worn by the Army, Marines, and Senior Navy / Coast Guard NCOs.  To those who feel that that would move us farther from our USAF alignment, I propose it as a cost effective method of identifying our NCOs. 

Personally, I have no objection to using the same insignia that the cadet NCOs wear since it is distinctive and available (read cheap).  I have seen very few CAP NCOs that would be confused with cadets.  If that does come to present a problem, restrict senior NCOs to the BBDU for a field uniform.
Freedom isn't free - I paid for it

mikeylikey

here is a crazy idea.........Lets take ONE YEAR OFF from making any uniform changes.  Even better.......lets just follow the AF uniform manual (COPY it, like drill and Ceremonies), and add specifics to it as needed!

I will be real disappointed to loose anything the AF has allowed us to do!  Like one poster said get rid of the "US" cutouts.  Excuse me?  Whats up with that?

When will the first round of suggestions be made to the board?
What's up monkeys?

Al Sayre

#26
Congrats Sir!

My recommendation would be to ditch the non-nomex jumpsuits AND BBDU's for a Dickies type Dark Blue work shirt in SS and/or LS and Dickies type Dark Blue pants.  

Add a Black or Dark Blue BDU type belt ,

Use the current tapes and cloth badges on the shirt with metal USAF/Cadet Grade insignia on the collars.  

Wear black boots or low quarters as appropriate, blousing authorized for field operations, but not required.

For headgear:  A dark blue or unit ballcap; black or dark blue watchcap authorized for cold weather.  

For colder climates, add a dark blue commercial windbreaker or Dark Blue Parka as required.

A khaki version for warm weather wear would be nice, but not a necessity.

Authorize it as a working uniform for ALL members both Senior and Cadet, fat, skinny, fuzzy or clean shaven.  This would allow most members to drive to their local Wal-Mart or K-mart and be in uniform for about $50.00.  

IIRC The Coasties used this as a working uniform in the 80's, it looks good, wears very well and can be found in almost every city.

Good Luck!

Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

jb512

Quote from: LtCol White on November 14, 2007, 07:43:45 PM
We are also looking at developing CAP Specific NCO chevrons for the NCO corps.


Use the cadet insignia and make patches out of them?  :D

mikeylikey

Oh ya.....forgot to add.....NO MORE UNIT SPECIFIC ORGANIZATIONAL HATS, BALLCAPS, etc.  No more Orange, Blue, pink, red, green....etc.  The AF is stopping that practice right?  Why can't we??
What's up monkeys?

Eclipse

Olive drab nametapes with white lettering for the camo BDU's.

Digi-pat tape with white lettering for ABU's.

Ditch discussion of any changes to NCO grade until after the comitte decides if there is a need. 

Unless a coherent NCO corp is reborn, the amount of effort that will be expended to redesign and manufacture grade insignia for less than 100 members is not justified.

"That Others May Zoom"

LtCol White

Quote from: mikeylikey on November 14, 2007, 08:05:27 PM
here is a crazy idea.........Lets take ONE YEAR OFF from making any uniform changes.  Even better.......lets just follow the AF uniform manual (COPY it, like drill and Ceremonies), and add specifics to it as needed!

I will be real disappointed to loose anything the AF has allowed us to do!  Like one poster said get rid of the "US" cutouts.  Excuse me?  Whats up with that?

When will the first round of suggestions be made to the board?


We are planning to get the alignment of insignia for service/corporate uniform and the ABU phase in to the board as quickly as we can get it put together. The other sum total issues will be subsequent to that.

In doing a complete review of all uniform parts and pieces, this should negate changes down the road with the exception of a new item being generated based on changes by USAF to their uniforms.



LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

Eclipse

Ease off on the C&D letters for things which are not copywritten - nametapes, namatags, etc., especially when VG can't deliver.

Don't publish an insignia change until after VG has begun stocking the new insignia in quantity.

A subcommittee should re-evaluate our contractual relationship with VG, and find out why we are being treated a second class customers, consider their monopoly position.
We should not be paying more for shipping, etc., than other services, as has been insinuated by other who have access to the same products from both sides...

"That Others May Zoom"

mikeylikey

Quote from: LtCol White on November 14, 2007, 08:16:43 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on November 14, 2007, 08:05:27 PM
here is a crazy idea.........Lets take ONE YEAR OFF from making any uniform changes.  Even better.......lets just follow the AF uniform manual (COPY it, like drill and Ceremonies), and add specifics to it as needed!

I will be real disappointed to loose anything the AF has allowed us to do!  Like one poster said get rid of the "US" cutouts.  Excuse me?  Whats up with that?

When will the first round of suggestions be made to the board?


We are planning to get the alignment of insignia for service/corporate uniform and the ABU phase in to the board as quickly as we can get it put together. The other sum total issues will be subsequent to that.

In doing a complete review of all uniform parts and pieces, this should negate changes down the road with the exception of a new item being generated based on changes by USAF to their uniforms.


How do you personally feel about that above?  Are you looking to remove items from the AF Blue Style Service Dress to match the New Corporate, or the other way around?  A lot of people spent years (and years) getting the AF style Dress to match as closely as possible to the actual AF uniform.  It would disappoint very many people!
What's up monkeys?

LtCol White

When we speak of aligning the insignia, we arent talking of removing anything from the USAF uniform. We are talking about using the same epaulets on both coats and shirts, same name tag on both coats and shirts so that no matter which one you wear, its the same. We are looking at removing the silver sleeve braid from the corp coat and replacing it with the standard USAF blue. Removing the silver chin strap from the Corp hat and using the standard USAF black. Maintain the "US" lapel insignia on the USAF coat and "CAP" on the corporate coat.

The point is so that when there is a room full of both combinations, you can see they are the same organization. If a member has both, then there is a cost savings for insignia. The main difference between the 2 will be the person wearing it and the color of the shirt.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

mikeylikey

Got it thank you!  However, I would hate to see the AF brushed metalic nameplate be replaced by that awful two-line one worn on the current CORP's. 
What's up monkeys?

Trung Si Ma

Quote from: Eclipse on November 14, 2007, 08:16:26 PM
Unless a coherent NCO corp is reborn, the amount of effort that will be expended to redesign and manufacture grade insignia for less than 100 members is not justified.

Concur.  This further supports using the existing cadet chevrons pinned to the existing grey epaulet sleeves for dress uniforms and pinning them to the collar of the BBDU.
Freedom isn't free - I paid for it

LtCol White

Quote from: Trung Si Ma on November 14, 2007, 08:45:11 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 14, 2007, 08:16:26 PM
Unless a coherent NCO corp is reborn, the amount of effort that will be expended to redesign and manufacture grade insignia for less than 100 members is not justified.

Concur.  This further supports using the existing cadet chevrons pinned to the existing grey epaulet sleeves for dress uniforms and pinning them to the collar of the BBDU.

Our intent is to design the insignia and get tacit approval pending the plan from NHQ for the NCO program. It would be submitted on the condition that the NCO program is to expand and grow. If the program is to be expanded and furthered, then the insignia would be submitted up for approval by HQ USAF.

We are trying to cover as much as possible with some forward thinking as to what is to come. There is no cost to design and get design approval. Cost is only related to production and this will be incremental since all work is computer generated and it would be a slight modification to an exisiting design in order to be produced.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

MIKE

Creating all new uniform junk isn't gonna save the membership any money.  Focus on fixing the problems, not creating new ones.
Mike Johnston

arajca

One simple change to the Corporate Service coat is to change the location of the cut out from 1/4" above the lapel seam to the same positioning as the AF service coat uses. The present location looks funny.

I'll have more when I get down to seriously thinking about it.

jb512

Quote from: Trung Si Ma on November 14, 2007, 08:45:11 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on November 14, 2007, 08:16:26 PM
Unless a coherent NCO corp is reborn, the amount of effort that will be expended to redesign and manufacture grade insignia for less than 100 members is not justified.

Concur.  This further supports using the existing cadet chevrons pinned to the existing grey epaulet sleeves for dress uniforms and pinning them to the collar of the BBDU.

Except that the cadet stripes on the collar of the regular BDU wouldn't be different from a cadet uniform.

I'd say use the gray slides with regular AF stripes pinned on it (or embroidered) for all NCO ranks on the blues.  On the BDU and/or BBDU just pin regular AF stripes on the collar in the same location that the cadet stripes would go.