CAP Instructor/Check Pilots

[a4jock]

Any CFI/CFII's out there who think the prohibition of not being compensated for flight instruction should be changed since we now have the training intensive G1000 and NHQ mandates?

[FlyTiger77]

By whom would you expect the compensation to be paid? The volunteer pilots, observers and scanners who require the training? Or do you foresee a new funding stream during these austere budget times into which you might tap?

[a2capt]

On the contrary, I wish I had the opportunity to pursue a CFI rating.
I'd have no problem supplying free instruction for CAP people.

[Eclipse]

Any CFI/CFII's out there who think the prohibition of not being compensated for flight instruction should be changed since we now have the training intensive G1000 and NHQ mandates?

Nothing I appreciate more then pilots who believe their time is more valuable then the thousands of others from all ranges of disciplines who contribute as much or more to CAP as they do.

Free gas and new airplanes aren't enough, they want to be paid for the time as well.

No wonder A&P's spend so much time troubleshooting "high pitched whining noises in the left front of the aircraft..."

[Bayareaflyer 44]

I understand the spirit of the question, but one thing that should be constantly underscored in our organization is – volunteerism.
Whenever I go over the Foundations module for new members seeking their Level 1, I always make a special effort to review module 5 "CAP Core Values".

There is a section in there that I have always found particularly intriguing:  "The CAP core value "volunteer service" adds the concept of volunteerism to the Air Force core value "service before self" since this essential concept is the basis of the CAP organization. "

We are an organization that takes a diverse group of individuals, all with skills, abilities, and backgrounds, and utilizes those skills/abilities/backgrounds to make us ready and available in service to our communities.  So, if that means that your way of contributing is to train our pilots in crossing over to the G1000 (BTW – got my checkout in the 'G' from a CAP instructor pilot, and darn glad I did) then our organization is stronger for it, and thank you.  However, if you feel that your time training our pilots could be better spent by squeezing every nickel from the Hobbs meter down at the local FBO, then only you can manage those priorities.

So the question you have to ask yourself is:  Why did I join CAP as an instructor pilot?  Was it to give back to the community?  Is it a way to professionally develop yourself? At any point during your soul-searching you find that the real answer was to find a pool of potential student pilots that may be a revenue stream for you, perhaps you may need to rethink what volunteering really means.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Allow me to rephrase.

Any Computer Professionals out there who think the prohibition of not being compensated for CAP web site programming / computer maintenance should be changed since we now have the intensive .gov domain and internet presence requirements?

[JeffDG]

Allow me to rephrase.

Any Computer Professionals out there who think the prohibition of not being compensated for CAP web site programming / computer maintenance should be changed since we now have the intensive .gov domain and internet presence requirements?

SECOND!

No, not really!

I contribute my time and skills to an organization that I feel has a worthwhile mission.  My compensation therefor is the good work that I help facilitate.

[Flying Pig]

A4jock.  Does that mean you used to fly A4s?  Cool aircraft.  One of our Check Pilots where I am used to fly A4s. 

I dont think CAP CFIs need compensation.  No more than attorneys who volunteer, the guy in my unit who built our web site on his own time, the ER nurse who runs the cadet program, the eye surgeon who acts as our Stan/Eval Officer, the Wing Commander who is a police Captain or the father who works construction and struggles just to get his son to CAP on time. 

[Cliff_Chambliss]

As a CFII I have no problem with the CAP position on instructor compensation.  What I do have a problem with are those CAP Members who feel they "own" the resident CFI.  By this, I am talking of the member who can not accept that paying students come first.  I will donate time to CAP as I can.  I resent the CAP member who will schedule a flight or several and then either cancel at the last minute or no show.  I resent the CAP member who says they want that Instrument Rating or the Commercial Certificate and yet refuse to study and prepare for the lesson at hand.

[bflynn]

Any CFI/CFII's out there who think the prohibition of not being compensated for flight instruction should be changed since we now have the training intensive G1000 and NHQ mandates?

Short answer - yes, there are some.  There are flight instructors who will not give BFRs because of concerns about signing someone off who later has an incident; the issue is liability and insurance. 

But as was stated, it's a volunteer organization.  If these people do not want to donate their time, then that is just fine.

[Al Sayre]

FWIW,  I think part of the job of being a "CAP Instructor Pilot" includes giving the instruction necessary to help your squadron/group/wing members meet the CAP requirements to operate the CAP assigned aircraft.  Otherwise, why do we need "CAP Instructor Pilots" at all?  We would just need CAP Check Pilots/Mission Check Pilots to perform CAPF 5 & CAPF 91 check rides. 

I would not expect a CAP Instructor Pilot to provide free instruction for an additional rating or certificate, nor do I expect them to do BFR's or other non-CAP business for free (however, if they are willing to do so that's great!).  I would be in favor of allowing them to receive compensation for their time if providing these services to CAP members (who are already certificated pilots) in a CAP Aircraft with some reasonable limitations such as those outlined in CAPR 60-1, i.e. already a VFR Private Pilot, Mission Pilot, with 3 years service etc.

[JeffDG]

I don't understand why CAP pilots do BFRs anyways.

Take your CAPF5, plus a one-hour online course in the Aeronautical Decision Making (free) every year and apply for WINGS credit...voila, no BFR needed anymore.

[Al Sayre]

+1

[JeffDG]

Oh, and that online ADM course...counts towards your CAP monthly safety currency!

[Walkman]

Allow me to rephrase.

Any Computer Professionals out there who think the prohibition of not being compensated for CAP web site programming / computer maintenance should be changed since we now have the intensive .gov domain and internet presence requirements?

This is why I'm longer pursuing the PAO track. I've been in the ad/marketing biz for 22 years and when I volunteer my time, I wanted something different to do.

I dont think CAP CFIs need compensation.  No more than attorneys who volunteer, the guy in my unit who built our web site on his own time, the ER nurse who runs the cadet program, the eye surgeon who acts as our Stan/Eval Officer, the Wing Commander who is a police Captain or the father who works construction and struggles just to get his son to CAP on time. 

Agreed.

[Flying Pig]

Now... with that being said, I should point out that as a CFI I would not do anyones ratings via the volunteer CAP route.  As far as F5s F91's, etc, thats as far as I would take it.  I am not about to donate the level of time and dedication required to take a CAP member through a rating ie. Private, Instrument, etc.  No thanks.    If you are working on an actual rating with a CAP aircraft and you have managed to find a CAP CFI willing to donate that amount of time, you have found an amazing volunteer and/or someone with a lot of free time on their hands!

[a4jock]

Great to see the range of responses on this issue. Lots of Sea Lawyers out there.
A charge would be for those wayward pilots (out of their own pockets)who let various currencies lapse(night, Flight Review(BFI is long gone), landings, IPC's, etc.) that require a CFI to re-hack their clock. These folks seem to think the local CAP CFI is ready and willing, at the drop of the hat, to tend to their needs. After 40+ years of flying for a living (Mil and Airlines), I don't have any sympathy for them.  I send them to the local FBO for these things. The FBO's and young instructors can use the $$$.
A mention of liability was made. Very true and also a HUGE issue. For you non instructor types--CFI insurance runs about $600/yr. to protect ones Certificates from any accident/incident involving a pilot who has your signature in his/her logbook. CAP will not come to your aid if you are involved in an NTSB/FAA investigation if you signed someone off as being "good to go".
Do the other specialty tracts in CAP have this threat/reality hanging over their heads if they mess up? I doubt it. Or how about giving instruction to someone who has never flown a high performance A/C (C182), and needs 10hrs. and 25 landings, or has never had to talk to controllers in class B, C or D airspace. You don't know what fun is Brother!
The issue of being able to charge for the above mentioned activities is real and has numerous CFI's talking about it. As pilots we have to pay for the plane, (Hobbs not Tach), and fuel.
Non CFI's are not aware of the ramifications involved with providing Flight Instruction. It's not free to acquire your Certification from the FAA ($5000+), maintain it: $100/yr.,  and insure it: ~$600/yr. The time has come for NHQ to visit this issue.
Semper Fi!

[Eclipse]

Great to see the range of responses on this issue. Lots of Sea Lawyers out there.

How long have you flown for CAP?  Because you sound either misinformed or are purposely mischaracterizing the issue to make your point.
Further, being a CFI / pilot does not provide you special "force powers" to understand the situation better then non-CFIs/ pilots.  In fact,
from your post it sounds as if the opposite is true.

For starters. there is no requirement that you, or anyone else, provide your skills to CAP, other then integrity if you received advanced grade for a particular mission skill.

Are you maintaining your CFI strictly for the benefit of CAP?  Obviously not, so you're not allowed to raise the cost issue.
Same goes for the insurance, etc.  And it might surprise you to find that any number of CAP members carry general liability insurance specifically for their CAP activities, or as an addition to coverage they already have.  Pilots are not unique here, either.

Anything you do under a proper mission symbol is most certainly covered by CAP, whether AFAM or corporate insurance depends on the symbol and activity.

There are plenty of opportunities to provide instruction and generally fly for no cost, not the least of which is having those receiving the benefit pay for the fuel and rental.  A number of wings now have monthly funded A7 proficiency programs which specifically allow for this type of training.

If training CAP members is too much pressure or too high a personal risk, don't do it.  But waiving the "I'm special flag...doesn't fly."

[JeffDG]

Non CFI's are not aware of the ramifications involved with providing Flight Instruction. It's not free to acquire your Certification from the FAA ($5000+), maintain it: $100/yr.,  and insure it: ~$600/yr. The time has come for NHQ to visit this issue.
Semper Fi!

Seriously?

Why don't you look into what other professionals, who also contribute their services to CAP, spend to obtain, maintain and insure their professional credentials.  The numbers you quoted are exceeded by at least an order of magnitude or more by most professionals.

Take our legal officers as an example.

According to the ABA, the average law student borrows $71,000 for public law school, to $91,000 for a private school.  Many are into 6 figures.  So that's 14x-18x the cost of your certificate you quoted.

Maintaining that qualification means maintaining membership in the state bar.  Fees of $300 (3x) to $2,000 (20x) your cost to maintain your certificate.

Now for insurance.  Errors & Omissions insurance for lawyers can run to a significant sum of cash, easily in the 10x-20x what you've quoted there.  Because such policies are very specific to the provider, I can't really provide averages for them, however.

[a2capt]

It's very simple, in the end. If you're not able to give your time to the organization... Don't.

No one is forcing you, or me, or any of our peers to do so.

Pilot ratings, especially with regards to fixed wing are pretty cheap on the investment scale compared to other educational investments that help this organization.

[NineThreeKilo]

Recently joined CAP myself, as a professional pilot, flight instructor (gold seal), ground instructor, small flight school owner and someone who logs, on average, 100hrs a month flying turboprops at work I think I can comment on this. 

 As for fees for a CAP CFI, well it is what it is and that's a VOLUNTEER group!

 I'll help folks out at CAP, intro flight, heck even currency  work (within reason), my payment is knowing that for the time I spend during CAP duties I am leaving the world a little better then I found it. 

Pilot ratings, especially with regards to fixed wing are pretty cheap on the investment scale compared to other educational investments that help this organization.

A2capt, you must not be a pilot or have much of a grasp of aviation, at least in last few decades....

  "pretty cheap" LMAO, for what I had to invest JUST to get my CPL.... I did a little research a while back, I could have become almost anything I wanted for the cost of flight training to the CPL level, a lawyer at a state school, engineer, CPA, Nurse, etc.  The only profession that interested me that would have cost considerably more, no matter where I did it, would have been a MD.  

You need 250hrs to get a commercial, you tally up the costs on aircraft rental, AVGAS, CFI, DPE fees, written fees, medical, books, headset, etc, etc. It ain't cheap compared to MANY professions.

Capt, I agree with what you're saying about volunteering at  CAP, just don't discredit it by saying something silly like aviation is cheap,  that just makes you sound misinformed to any pilots out there

[SarDragon]

a2capt is a pilot. He's actually a pretty smart guy. We're friends.

When I first read his post, I almost agreed with your PoV. Then I did some research, and comparison.

The total California resident tuition/fees for the UC system, per year, are $13,234. No books, no room and board, nothing else. That totals $52, 936.

Now let's say that you spent $160/hr to get your 250 hours. I think it's a reasonable average, and adds in the extras you spoke of. Dual might be more, solo is certainly cheaper. That totals $40,000.

Now what's cheaper.

OBTW, I'm a student pilot, so this is familiar ground for me, too.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Also, let's be realistic here. I went to a middle of the road college. Around $110,000 JUST for tuition.

[Eclipse]

Just to be clear here, no one in CAP is maintaining their CFI because of CAP.  If you are, and it's a burden, knock it off.

You're a pilot, lawyer, IT guy, Dr. whatever, and you bring those talents in volunteer service, but CAP doesn't want or need
people who are undertaking personal burdens for the "good of the corps".

It might also shock yo to learn that the rate your unit's IT guy charge per hour is about 4x's what the average CFI makes
same with the FM if he's a CPA, and we all know what Docs and Lawyers make, etc., etc. That's not intended to be a boast or put-down, just a reality check.

As to aviation being cheap - where else are you going to find brand new airplanes for our rental rate?  Those hours
you're logging for CAP are helping you and saving you money.   We did a break down of what it would cost the
average 40-hour a year pilot to fly for CAP vs. privately to maintain their currency and proficiency, etc.  We came up with saving several thousand dollars a year, and that's just assuming B-rides on your own nickel, without including funded missions.

[NineThreeKilo]

a2capt is a pilot. He's actually a pretty smart guy. We're friends.

When I first read his post, I almost agreed with your PoV. Then I did some research, and comparison.

The total California resident tuition/fees for the UC system, per year, are $13,234. No books, no room and board, nothing else. That totals $52, 936.

Now let's say that you spent $160/hr to get your 250 hours. I think it's a reasonable average, and adds in the extras you spoke of. Dual might be more, solo is certainly cheaper. That totals $40,000.

Now what's cheaper.

OBTW, I'm a student pilot, so this is familiar ground for me, too.

Quoted from ATP (puppy mill, but many go this route) $64,995, ERU can get close to 100k.   FBO will be less then ATP, depending on how smart you are about it and what you fly.

Average 4 year degree is 9-29k (https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/pay-for-college/college-costs/college-costs-faqs), plus you have scholarships, grants, etc.   Never seen that for AVGAS

[Майор Хаткевич]

That's 9-29k per year...

[Eclipse]

These days $9k is books and fees.

[scooter]

Not being a CFI, but former AF IP/FE, I really appreciate the CFIs that donate their time to do F5s/91s etc. Buy'em lunch/coffee/beer whenever I get the chance. Thanks guys! :clap:

[Flying Pig]

Also, let's be realistic here. I went to a middle of the road college. Around $110,000 JUST for tuition.

Holy cow.... Why?

[Eclipse]

That's what it costs these days - up around here, there's a preschool that costs $10k a year.

Private grammar school goes $4k without even trying, and the high school I went to is now over $8k a year.

$25k a year for college?  No problem, that's a bargain.

[Flying Pig]

usafaux.... can I ask what degree you got?

[Woodsy]

These days $9k is books and fees.

Heck, that's my annual parking pass! 

[PHall]

Also, let's be realistic here. I went to a middle of the road college. Around $110,000 JUST for tuition.

Holy cow.... Why?

Rob, you haven't checked out what it costs to send a kid to Stanford or USC, have you?

[Eclipse]

Rob, you haven't checked out what it costs to send a kid to Stanford or USC, have you?

Holy crap. 

[A.Member]

Any CFI/CFII's out there who think the prohibition of not being compensated for flight instruction should be changed since we now have the training intensive G1000 and NHQ mandates?

No.

[a2capt]

Average 4 year degree is 9-29k (https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/pay-for-college/college-costs/college-costs-faqs), plus you have scholarships, grants, etc.   Never seen that for AVGAS

Notice that it says -Per Year- .. a degree that gets you far as a lawyer or doctor in this program is 4-6, even 8 of those years, and not at the community college in-state level.

I actually didn't do any specific research, other than I know that ATP, American Flyers, et al, offer those ~$60K programs, and that I can expect to pay $30/60K per year for the typical public four year university, in/out of state.

Yup, that $60K is a bargain, if that gets you the job, and you're happy with the dog-eat-dog ladder game. Otherwise, you still need a couple years at the university in some cases, too. Add on another $40/$60K.

Oh, yes- and I am a pilot.

[Майор Хаткевич]

usafaux.... can I ask what degree you got?

Finance degree from DePaul's College of Commerce ​Driehaus College of Business.

http://www.depaul.edu/admission-and-aid/tuition/Pages/default.aspx

Current cost per year for 3rd/4th year students: ​$33,710

[Critical AOA]

No wonder A&P's spend so much time troubleshooting "high pitched whining noises in the left front of the aircraft..."

You have no idea!! 

As an A&P/IA who has spent his entire working life trying to eliminate that noise, I can tell you that it is incessant. 

[bosshawk]

And virtually impossible to correct or cancel: I know, I was one.