CAP Instructor/Check Pilots

Started by a4jock, March 21, 2013, 02:33:04 AM

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a4jock

Any CFI/CFII's out there who think the prohibition of not being compensated for flight instruction should be changed since we now have the training intensive G1000 and NHQ mandates?

FlyTiger77

By whom would you expect the compensation to be paid? The volunteer pilots, observers and scanners who require the training? Or do you foresee a new funding stream during these austere budget times into which you might tap?
JACK E. MULLINAX II, Lt Col, CAP

a2capt

On the contrary, I wish I had the opportunity to pursue a CFI rating.
I'd have no problem supplying free instruction for CAP people.


Eclipse

Quote from: a4jock on March 21, 2013, 02:33:04 AM
Any CFI/CFII's out there who think the prohibition of not being compensated for flight instruction should be changed since we now have the training intensive G1000 and NHQ mandates?

Nothing I appreciate more then pilots who believe their time is more valuable then the thousands of others from all ranges of disciplines who contribute as much or more to CAP as they do.

Free gas and new airplanes aren't enough, they want to be paid for the time as well.

No wonder A&P's spend so much time troubleshooting "high pitched whining noises in the left front of the aircraft..."

"That Others May Zoom"

Bayareaflyer 44

I understand the spirit of the question, but one thing that should be constantly underscored in our organization is – volunteerism.
Whenever I go over the Foundations module for new members seeking their Level 1, I always make a special effort to review module 5 "CAP Core Values".

There is a section in there that I have always found particularly intriguing:  "The CAP core value "volunteer service" adds the concept of volunteerism to the Air Force core value "service before self" since this essential concept is the basis of the CAP organization. "

We are an organization that takes a diverse group of individuals, all with skills, abilities, and backgrounds, and utilizes those skills/abilities/backgrounds to make us ready and available in service to our communities.  So, if that means that your way of contributing is to train our pilots in crossing over to the G1000 (BTW – got my checkout in the 'G' from a CAP instructor pilot, and darn glad I did) then our organization is stronger for it, and thank you.  However, if you feel that your time training our pilots could be better spent by squeezing every nickel from the Hobbs meter down at the local FBO, then only you can manage those priorities.

So the question you have to ask yourself is:  Why did I join CAP as an instructor pilot?  Was it to give back to the community?  Is it a way to professionally develop yourself? At any point during your soul-searching you find that the real answer was to find a pool of potential student pilots that may be a revenue stream for you, perhaps you may need to rethink what volunteering really means.


Earhart #2546
GRW     #3418

Phil Hirons, Jr.

Allow me to rephrase. >:D >:D

Any Computer Professionals out there who think the prohibition of not being compensated for CAP web site programming / computer maintenance should be changed since we now have the intensive .gov domain and internet presence requirements?


JeffDG

Quote from: phirons on March 21, 2013, 02:53:22 PM
Allow me to rephrase. >:D >:D

Any Computer Professionals out there who think the prohibition of not being compensated for CAP web site programming / computer maintenance should be changed since we now have the intensive .gov domain and internet presence requirements?
SECOND!

No, not really!

I contribute my time and skills to an organization that I feel has a worthwhile mission.  My compensation therefor is the good work that I help facilitate.

Flying Pig

A4jock.  Does that mean you used to fly A4s?  Cool aircraft.  One of our Check Pilots where I am used to fly A4s. 

I dont think CAP CFIs need compensation.  No more than attorneys who volunteer, the guy in my unit who built our web site on his own time, the ER nurse who runs the cadet program, the eye surgeon who acts as our Stan/Eval Officer, the Wing Commander who is a police Captain or the father who works construction and struggles just to get his son to CAP on time. 

Cliff_Chambliss

As a CFII I have no problem with the CAP position on instructor compensation.  What I do have a problem with are those CAP Members who feel they "own" the resident CFI.  By this, I am talking of the member who can not accept that paying students come first.  I will donate time to CAP as I can.  I resent the CAP member who will schedule a flight or several and then either cancel at the last minute or no show.  I resent the CAP member who says they want that Instrument Rating or the Commercial Certificate and yet refuse to study and prepare for the lesson at hand.
11th Armored Cavalry Regiment
2d Armored Cavalry Regiment
3d Infantry Division
504th BattleField Surveillance Brigade

ARMY:  Because even the Marines need heros.    
CAVALRY:  If it were easy it would be called infantry.

bflynn

Quote from: a4jock on March 21, 2013, 02:33:04 AM
Any CFI/CFII's out there who think the prohibition of not being compensated for flight instruction should be changed since we now have the training intensive G1000 and NHQ mandates?

Short answer - yes, there are some.  There are flight instructors who will not give BFRs because of concerns about signing someone off who later has an incident; the issue is liability and insurance. 

But as was stated, it's a volunteer organization.  If these people do not want to donate their time, then that is just fine.

Al Sayre

FWIW,  I think part of the job of being a "CAP Instructor Pilot" includes giving the instruction necessary to help your squadron/group/wing members meet the CAP requirements to operate the CAP assigned aircraft.  Otherwise, why do we need "CAP Instructor Pilots" at all?  We would just need CAP Check Pilots/Mission Check Pilots to perform CAPF 5 & CAPF 91 check rides. 

I would not expect a CAP Instructor Pilot to provide free instruction for an additional rating or certificate, nor do I expect them to do BFR's or other non-CAP business for free (however, if they are willing to do so that's great!).  I would be in favor of allowing them to receive compensation for their time if providing these services to CAP members (who are already certificated pilots) in a CAP Aircraft with some reasonable limitations such as those outlined in CAPR 60-1, i.e. already a VFR Private Pilot, Mission Pilot, with 3 years service etc.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

JeffDG

I don't understand why CAP pilots do BFRs anyways.

Take your CAPF5, plus a one-hour online course in the Aeronautical Decision Making (free) every year and apply for WINGS credit...voila, no BFR needed anymore.

Al Sayre

Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

JeffDG

Oh, and that online ADM course...counts towards your CAP monthly safety currency!

Walkman

Quote from: phirons on March 21, 2013, 02:53:22 PM
Allow me to rephrase. >:D >:D

Any Computer Professionals out there who think the prohibition of not being compensated for CAP web site programming / computer maintenance should be changed since we now have the intensive .gov domain and internet presence requirements?

This is why I'm longer pursuing the PAO track. I've been in the ad/marketing biz for 22 years and when I volunteer my time, I wanted something different to do.

Quote from: Flying Pig on March 21, 2013, 03:13:23 PM
I dont think CAP CFIs need compensation.  No more than attorneys who volunteer, the guy in my unit who built our web site on his own time, the ER nurse who runs the cadet program, the eye surgeon who acts as our Stan/Eval Officer, the Wing Commander who is a police Captain or the father who works construction and struggles just to get his son to CAP on time. 

Agreed.

Flying Pig

Now... with that being said, I should point out that as a CFI I would not do anyones ratings via the volunteer CAP route.  As far as F5s F91's, etc, thats as far as I would take it.  I am not about to donate the level of time and dedication required to take a CAP member through a rating ie. Private, Instrument, etc.  No thanks.    If you are working on an actual rating with a CAP aircraft and you have managed to find a CAP CFI willing to donate that amount of time, you have found an amazing volunteer and/or someone with a lot of free time on their hands!

a4jock

Great to see the range of responses on this issue. Lots of Sea Lawyers out there.
A charge would be for those wayward pilots (out of their own pockets)who let various currencies lapse(night, Flight Review(BFI is long gone), landings, IPC's, etc.) that require a CFI to re-hack their clock. These folks seem to think the local CAP CFI is ready and willing, at the drop of the hat, to tend to their needs. After 40+ years of flying for a living (Mil and Airlines), I don't have any sympathy for them.  I send them to the local FBO for these things. The FBO's and young instructors can use the $$$.
A mention of liability was made. Very true and also a HUGE issue. For you non instructor types--CFI insurance runs about $600/yr. to protect ones Certificates from any accident/incident involving a pilot who has your signature in his/her logbook. CAP will not come to your aid if you are involved in an NTSB/FAA investigation if you signed someone off as being "good to go".
Do the other specialty tracts in CAP have this threat/reality hanging over their heads if they mess up? I doubt it. Or how about giving instruction to someone who has never flown a high performance A/C (C182), and needs 10hrs. and 25 landings, or has never had to talk to controllers in class B, C or D airspace. You don't know what fun is Brother!
The issue of being able to charge for the above mentioned activities is real and has numerous CFI's talking about it. As pilots we have to pay for the plane, (Hobbs not Tach), and fuel.
Non CFI's are not aware of the ramifications involved with providing Flight Instruction. It's not free to acquire your Certification from the FAA ($5000+), maintain it: $100/yr.,  and insure it: ~$600/yr. The time has come for NHQ to visit this issue.
Semper Fi!

Eclipse

Quote from: a4jock on March 21, 2013, 11:04:43 PM
Great to see the range of responses on this issue. Lots of Sea Lawyers out there.
How long have you flown for CAP?  Because you sound either misinformed or are purposely mischaracterizing the issue to make your point.
Further, being a CFI / pilot does not provide you special "force powers" to understand the situation better then non-CFIs/ pilots.  In fact,
from your post it sounds as if the opposite is true.

For starters. there is no requirement that you, or anyone else, provide your skills to CAP, other then integrity if you received advanced grade for a particular mission skill.

Are you maintaining your CFI strictly for the benefit of CAP?  Obviously not, so you're not allowed to raise the cost issue.
Same goes for the insurance, etc.  And it might surprise you to find that any number of CAP members carry general liability insurance specifically for their CAP activities, or as an addition to coverage they already have.  Pilots are not unique here, either.

Anything you do under a proper mission symbol is most certainly covered by CAP, whether AFAM or corporate insurance depends on the symbol and activity.

There are plenty of opportunities to provide instruction and generally fly for no cost, not the least of which is having those receiving the benefit pay for the fuel and rental.  A number of wings now have monthly funded A7 proficiency programs which specifically allow for this type of training.

If training CAP members is too much pressure or too high a personal risk, don't do it.  But waiving the "I'm special flag...doesn't fly."

"That Others May Zoom"

JeffDG

Quote from: a4jock on March 21, 2013, 11:04:43 PM
Non CFI's are not aware of the ramifications involved with providing Flight Instruction. It's not free to acquire your Certification from the FAA ($5000+), maintain it: $100/yr.,  and insure it: ~$600/yr. The time has come for NHQ to visit this issue.
Semper Fi!
Seriously?

Why don't you look into what other professionals, who also contribute their services to CAP, spend to obtain, maintain and insure their professional credentials.  The numbers you quoted are exceeded by at least an order of magnitude or more by most professionals.

Take our legal officers as an example.

According to the ABA, the average law student borrows $71,000 for public law school, to $91,000 for a private school.  Many are into 6 figures.  So that's 14x-18x the cost of your certificate you quoted.

Maintaining that qualification means maintaining membership in the state bar.  Fees of $300 (3x) to $2,000 (20x) your cost to maintain your certificate.

Now for insurance.  Errors & Omissions insurance for lawyers can run to a significant sum of cash, easily in the 10x-20x what you've quoted there.  Because such policies are very specific to the provider, I can't really provide averages for them, however.

a2capt

It's very simple, in the end. If you're not able to give your time to the organization... Don't.

No one is forcing you, or me, or any of our peers to do so.

Pilot ratings, especially with regards to fixed wing are pretty cheap on the investment scale compared to other educational investments that help this organization.