NHQ Uniform Committee

Started by LtCol White, November 14, 2007, 06:15:02 PM

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RiverAux

Too lazy to check the thread....

Have CAP ribbons reviewed and approved by the AF using the same process they use for their own ribbons to ensure that we don't accidentally use some other design.  Properly register them with whoever in the AF is responsible for them. 

BillB

I believe that ribbons are approved by the Air Force Heraldry office. At least they used to be. That's why some of the old ribbons are no longer authorized, or new designs came about.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

afgeo4

Quote from: SStradley on February 03, 2008, 11:09:24 AM
Quote from: teesquared on February 03, 2008, 05:10:50 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on February 02, 2008, 10:44:11 PM

Quote
I have seen quite a few senior member officers do this regardless of the regulation and this would be a good fix.

That is exactly the reason we are in the MESS we are in.  That is a blatant violation of published rules.  Senior Members making up their own rules as they go along. 


I agree. I don't think we should rewrite the rules to conform to the violators. Seniors should be required to follow the rules or wear a different uniform.

Except in this discussion where we are discussing changes to the uniforms and uniform regulations.  Allowing the blue windbreaker with the TPU makes sense.  It still has "CAP Slides" and is over a white shirt.  It does not make the Fat & Fuzzy look (any more) like a USAF Officer. This change allows a member to have one windbreaker that he can use for two uniforms.  For example my Son can't make up his mind about a beard.  He  grows one, and then he shaves it off.  So some times he is in "Blues" and some times he is in "White & Grays".  One windbreaker makes good sense and saves money.  (I am not trying to change the regs for my son, just using him as an example.)
The proposal wasn't for "white & grays", but for the corporate service uniform (TPU). "White & Grays" are a civilian option and any outerwear may be worn.
GEORGE LURYE

SStradley

Quote from: afgeo4 on February 05, 2008, 06:12:10 AM
Quote from: SStradley on February 03, 2008, 11:09:24 AM
Quote from: teesquared on February 03, 2008, 05:10:50 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on February 02, 2008, 10:44:11 PM

Quote
I have seen quite a few senior member officers do this regardless of the regulation and this would be a good fix.

That is exactly the reason we are in the MESS we are in.  That is a blatant violation of published rules.  Senior Members making up their own rules as they go along. 


I agree. I don't think we should rewrite the rules to conform to the violators. Seniors should be required to follow the rules or wear a different uniform.

Except in this discussion where we are discussing changes to the uniforms and uniform regulations.  Allowing the blue windbreaker with the TPU makes sense.  It still has "CAP Slides" and is over a white shirt.  It does not make the Fat & Fuzzy look (any more) like a USAF Officer. This change allows a member to have one windbreaker that he can use for two uniforms.  For example my Son can't make up his mind about a beard.  He  grows one, and then he shaves it off.  So some times he is in "Blues" and some times he is in "White & Grays".  One windbreaker makes good sense and saves money.  (I am not trying to change the regs for my son, just using him as an example.)
The proposal wasn't for "white & grays", but for the corporate service uniform (TPU). "White & Grays" are a civilian option and any outerwear may be worn.

George,

I know that the proposal was for.  If you recall (and with 56 pages it can be a chore) the White & Grays are proposed to be eliminated, and replaced with the TPU (White & Blues) with blue "CAP" rank.  Therefore, it is an appropriate suggestion to eliminate the Black (Army) Windbreaker for the Blue (USAF) Windbreaker with the blue CAP rank.  This reduces the CAP uniform closet by one item (black windbreaker), does not lead to confusion of CAP members with real USAF members (blue CAP rank). 

Do you have an objection of substance to the proposal of eliminating the Black (Army) Windbreaker for the Blue (USAF) Windbreaker with the appropriate CAP markings for the TPU?
Scott Stradley Maj, CAP


"Duty is the sublimest word in the English language."  R.E. Lee

CS

I don't understand what the 'rush' is to make more changes to the uniforms.  IT COSTS MEMBERS MONEY!  I propose that the constitution be amended to allow for changes to occur only once every three years.  The rational behind this is the same as the AF, there is time to review whether change is good or whether it is for the sake of change.  I will challenge anyone that has been is CAP more than 20 years to tell me how any of the proposals being slated make us a better organization.  Let's focus our attention on becoming better with higher retention and participation rates.  There are current members that have seen uniforms change every six months since joining, this is a non-motivator.  Let us be reminded that AF has not asked us to change anything, we are doing this to ourselves!

jb512

Well, this frenzied thread is slowly dying out....

We saw lots of good ideas, and lots of crazy ones.  If LtCol White will just keep us updated on the progress and what to look forward to, it looks like it will have all paid off.

arajca

On a slightly different note...

Kill the white helmet liner for ES! Replace it with an OSHA compliant hard hat, preferably in a high vis color - day-glo neon lime green, anyone. Authorize a MANDATORY CAP decal (ES patch, Majcomm, CAP seal, pick one in the manual) with OPTIONAL member's last name in contrasting lettering on the back.

Hawk200

Quote from: arajca on February 05, 2008, 07:44:12 PM
On a slightly different note...

Kill the white helmet liner for ES! Replace it with an OSHA compliant hard hat, preferably in a high vis color - day-glo neon lime green, anyone. Authorize a MANDATORY CAP decal (ES patch, Majcomm, CAP seal, pick one in the manual) with OPTIONAL member's last name in contrasting lettering on the back.

Lime green? Why do you want to look like a lollipop?

Usually, all the "white helmet liners" I've seen were simply the same hard hats used by construction crews. They're protective, and seem to have worked fine for those crews for decades.

As far as protective equivalents go, Pro-Tec helmets would probably be more appropriate. I don't think I've seen any need to avoid falling debris, even while I was doing quake relief in Cali. And they look better.

arajca

Quote from: Dictionary.comhelmet liner
–noun 1. a soft or padded lining for a helmet. 
2. Military. a stiff, plastic head covering designed to be worn alone or under a steel helmet for protection.
All the helmet liners I have seen look like the old steel Army helmet, just in plastic. I can easily see someone banning conventional hard hats because they are not helmet liners. (BTST).

Specifying OSHA compliant leaves some flexibility as to exactly what hard hat someone gets, while ensuring an appropriate standard is followed.

As for the color, it was either that or International Orange, and I didn't feel like being called a HAWK Mountain stooge. The point is that the helmet used for ES be a high-vis color.


davedove

Quote from: arajca on February 05, 2008, 09:20:42 PM
Quote from: Dictionary.comhelmet liner
–noun 1. a soft or padded lining for a helmet. 
2. Military. a stiff, plastic head covering designed to be worn alone or under a steel helmet for protection.
All the helmet liners I have seen look like the old steel Army helmet, just in plastic. I can easily see someone banning conventional hard hats because they are not helmet liners. (BTST).

Specifying OSHA compliant leaves some flexibility as to exactly what hard hat someone gets, while ensuring an appropriate standard is followed.

As for the color, it was either that or International Orange, and I didn't feel like being called a HAWK Mountain stooge. The point is that the helmet used for ES be a high-vis color.



The helmet liners are just what they're called, liners for helmets.  In this case, they were worn with the old "steel pot" helmets, that went out of use about 20 years ago.  There is some protection from them, but I have no idea how they measure up to OSHA.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

Hawk200

Quote from: davedove on February 05, 2008, 09:23:19 PM
The helmet liners are just what they're called, liners for helmets.  In this case, they were worn with the old "steel pot" helmets, that went out of use about 20 years ago.  There is some protection from them, but I have no idea how they measure up to OSHA.

I've never actually seen those helmet liners used in CAP (yes, I know what they are). I've only ever seen the OSHA hard hat used by construction crews, usually in white, yellow or orange. They would would fine, I'd imagine. Personally, I don't care for them, the inside adjuster is usually plastic, just tightened up. They usually give me headaches from the oddball pressure points.

JohnKachenmeister

The steel helmet became a museum piece years ago.  Helmet liners, once common, are now museum pieces too.  I have never seen helmet liners worn as protective headgear in the field.  They do not actually protect anything, as they are made of fiberglass, not plastic.

The only helmet liners I have ever seen in CAP were painted and used by color guards.
Another former CAP officer

arajca

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 06, 2008, 12:24:16 AM
The steel helmet became a museum piece years ago.  Helmet liners, once common, are now museum pieces too.  I have never seen helmet liners worn as protective headgear in the field.  They do not actually protect anything, as they are made of fiberglass, not plastic.

The only helmet liners I have ever seen in CAP were painted and used by color guards.
This is the part that needs to be changed:
Quote from: CAPM 39-1, Table 1-3, Item 3
Color to be determined by wing commander except that helmet liners authorized for wear by members participating in emergency services missions will be white and will be worn with the decal depicted in Figure 6-20.

CASH172

I know for CERT in NJWG, they use the standard green helmet that comes with the new equipment package.  Not sure what specs are on the helmet. 

afgeo4

Quote from: SStradley on February 05, 2008, 10:34:56 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on February 05, 2008, 06:12:10 AM
Quote from: SStradley on February 03, 2008, 11:09:24 AM
Quote from: teesquared on February 03, 2008, 05:10:50 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on February 02, 2008, 10:44:11 PM

Quote
I have seen quite a few senior member officers do this regardless of the regulation and this would be a good fix.

That is exactly the reason we are in the MESS we are in.  That is a blatant violation of published rules.  Senior Members making up their own rules as they go along. 


I agree. I don't think we should rewrite the rules to conform to the violators. Seniors should be required to follow the rules or wear a different uniform.

Except in this discussion where we are discussing changes to the uniforms and uniform regulations.  Allowing the blue windbreaker with the TPU makes sense.  It still has "CAP Slides" and is over a white shirt.  It does not make the Fat & Fuzzy look (any more) like a USAF Officer. This change allows a member to have one windbreaker that he can use for two uniforms.  For example my Son can't make up his mind about a beard.  He  grows one, and then he shaves it off.  So some times he is in "Blues" and some times he is in "White & Grays".  One windbreaker makes good sense and saves money.  (I am not trying to change the regs for my son, just using him as an example.)
The proposal wasn't for "white & grays", but for the corporate service uniform (TPU). "White & Grays" are a civilian option and any outerwear may be worn.

George,

I know that the proposal was for.  If you recall (and with 56 pages it can be a chore) the White & Grays are proposed to be eliminated, and replaced with the TPU (White & Blues) with blue "CAP" rank.  Therefore, it is an appropriate suggestion to eliminate the Black (Army) Windbreaker for the Blue (USAF) Windbreaker with the blue CAP rank.  This reduces the CAP uniform closet by one item (black windbreaker), does not lead to confusion of CAP members with real USAF members (blue CAP rank). 

Do you have an objection of substance to the proposal of eliminating the Black (Army) Windbreaker for the Blue (USAF) Windbreaker with the appropriate CAP markings for the TPU?
Negative. In fact, I'm the one who proposed it in this thread. However, do you feel that members not in compliance with grooming standards will be authorized the wear of Corp Dress Uniform or do you think they're going to keep the white and grays for them?
GEORGE LURYE

mikeylikey

Grooming and Weight standards should fall under the same "you can't wear AF-style, but can wear the Corporate Blue and White Uniform".  It is silly to have 3 different distinctions.  So CAP needs to come out and say "Everyone who is clean-shaven, and within AF mandated Height/Weight are permitted to wear AF style, for everyone else, your in the Blue/White corporates. 

^ The proposal for the AF windbreaker will never PASS AF for fatties or beardies.  IT is a distinctive AF uniform, and AF has for years said no FAT or un-shaven people may wear AF style.  That is why the TPU came with the Black windbreaker.  Perhaps, we should mandate the Black windbreaker for the AF style, and get rid of the blue windbreaker......thus only one choice for outerwear.  That is what was proposed up above.....eliminating the black jacket, I just reversed the thinking on it!
What's up monkeys?

DNall

Quote from: afgeo4 on February 06, 2008, 03:19:42 PM
...do you feel that members not in compliance with grooming standards will be authorized the wear of Corp Dress Uniform...
As I understand it, wht/gry would be gone. Then one of two things would happen: 1) exactly what you said, the grooming standards would be dropped for alt service dress; or, 2) the alternative would be the polo/khakis or blazer combination.

I understand there's mixed feelings, even within individuals. It does take compromise to acomplish something like this, and I think we're about there. At this point we're talking about things to be considered at a paygrade above our own. All of this is being presented with primary & alternative options. We can only hope the decision makers follow the guidance we're giving them from the field & do what's best for CAP.

mikeylikey

Lt Col White?? 

Anyone on this Uniform Committee have a black and white proposal on paper yet??  I think we have surely reached the end of suggestions, and we are starting to drift into things that were said on pages 4 through 38 again.

Perhaps one final summary of what the committee got from all of our suggestions and a LOCK on this??
What's up monkeys?

DNall

Quote from: mikeylikey on February 06, 2008, 05:05:00 PM
Perhaps one final summary of what the committee got from all of our suggestions and a LOCK on this??
2nd

notaNCO forever

Quote from: DNall on February 06, 2008, 06:41:16 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on February 06, 2008, 05:05:00 PM
Perhaps one final summary of what the committee got from all of our suggestions and a LOCK on this??
2nd
3rd