NHQ Uniform Committee

[Eclipse]

From what I read from Nov's BOG, (I think it was), Vanguard has been told to stop offering the US CAP tapes.

I don't doubt that for a second, and have no doubt a phase out will be announced this month.  My issue is that I have had my own unit CC's issuing directives based solely on the NEC meeting that their members are to remove USCAP from everything "within 30 days", or some equally arbitrary number.

Its hard enough on our members to keep up with things without making it more difficult with incorrect assumptions or trying to game the system by figuring out what NHQ "might" do next.

[Timothy]

I'm a new member... still waiting for my temporary ID card to show, as a matter of fact. But I had 4 yrs in JROTC and 2 yrs in ROTC, so I've worn both the new and old Service Dress, as well as BDU's. I like all the changes listed; I can only wish that the SMwoG changes had already happened.

I'm in exact agreement on the service dress recommendations: the brushed steel nametag and use of blue slip-on CAP sliders. I like the sage green/white tapes for the ABU, though the navy blue would be ok as well. Regarding all these proposed changes, I think if a clear, and lengthy sunset date is presented they should cause no undue financial stress to members. As I look at buying all my marine blue bdu insig, and flight suit insig (especially the leather name tag) I find myself wishing
the uniform board had already met... and wishing that the BDU nametape colors proposed would be an option for the woodlands... but I just happen to be joining at a transitional period, and I understand that.

We should be as similar as possible to our parent unit... we aren't the boy scouts; we are an official auxilliary, work hand-in-hand with Federal authorities, and should not be ashamed of our AF uniforms. The same mis-interpretation of uniforms happens with ROTC and even JROTC cadets quite often.

While on active AFB's we were saluted all the time by enlisted men... we had officers braid and "some kind of silver shiny object" on our flight caps.... even with no sleeve braid on the service coat, and black shoulder slip-ons people made the mistake, or were just being cautious. You simply smile, salute, greet, and move on. If they stopped to chat we would explain who we were in as nice a way as possible, and no one ever got upset.

The AF never made us wear giant signs that said "Cadet," I suppose because we never took advantage of the similarity of our uniforms to those of officers. If I was on-base and thought I was mistaken for something other than what I was, I would do the same as listed above... smile, salute, greet, and if time and situation allowed, inform. No matter what we wear, you are still going to have the same journey of discovery by AF personnell: contact - curiosity - inquiry - understanding. If the CAP member has their wits about them it is an easy task.

[tjaxe]

About a half a zillion pages back in this thread there was a sum-up of things that were going to be (may be?) suggested re: uniform changes.  Does anyone know if that's the current summary or if there have been modifications / additions made?  I'm just curious about what decisions - in general - will be presented by the committee at the winter Board meeting.  Thanks!! 

[mikeylikey]

^ That was the summary.  We have yet to hear from the creator of this thread as to when the list will officially be compiled and presented.  I am wondering if it will be this month or not.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Earlier, he said his goal was to have proposals for the corporate uniforms ready for the March NB meeting.  The proposals for USAF uniforms have to go up to the Big Blue Vatican for approval, and probably will not be ready in time, but can be voted on in March 2009.

[teesquared]

Anybody know what page the last summary was on? 

[mikeylikey]

After 49 pages of not reading anymore, I ask the following:

If you had to go to National Boards right now, what are you asking for uniform changes?

Good Question!

  Re: NHQ Uniform Committee
« Reply #844 on: December 27, 2007, 10:47:56 PM »   

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Refresher to get us back on track, and to help those that just joined us (so they don't have to read all 41 pages!)   


Quote from: mikeylikey on December 07, 2007, 09:17:01 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 05, 2007, 09:07:17 AM
Could I take a moment to review what we have so far?

1.  AF Blues:

- No change likely on weight requirements.
- Switch from gray to blue epaulet sleeves, with "CAP" identified.

2.  TPU:

- Switch from silver braid to same blue as on AF coat.
- Lose silver chinstrap from flying saucer cap.
- Switch from hard rank to blue epaulet sleeve, same as AF coat.
- Shirt to have same blue epaulet with "CAP."
- "CAP" lapel brass to remain.
- Allow neatly-trimmed beards, but NOT long hair.
- Not resolved:  wear of military ribbons and badges... Same rules as on AF coat?

3.  White and Grays:

- History.

4.  Flight Suits:

- Retain dual flight suits, sage green and dark blue.
- Sew-on bright rank for both shoulders.
- Sage green background for AF flight suit, dark blue for blue flight suit.
- Not resolved:  embroidered name badges?

5.  BDU's:

- Retain BDU for time being.
- Introduce ABU on a schedule driven by the AF logistical chain.
- No change to BDU during phase-out period.
- Retain blue BDU for the fats and fuzzies.
- Switch to dark blue nametapes and rank background for BBDU.
- Unresolved:  Dark blue or sage green background for ABU tapes and rank?

6.  Golf Shirt:

- Retain as a casual uniform.
- Switch to khaki trousers (Is this correct, or unresolved?)
- Establish a single authorized golf shirt.

7.  Blazer Uniform:

- Retain for IACE and as an alternate dress uniform.
- Switch to khaki trousers (Again, was this resolved?)

Does this summarize what has been discussed and decided, or do I have something wrong?




So we all don't have to read back to page 24 to catch up. 

[teesquared]

Thanks, that saves me tons of scanning. 

I would like to put in a plug that we NOT switch to khaki trousers on the blue blazer uni. Grey dress slacks are a much more formal looking attire. (IMHO) 

[afgeo4]

I agree...


I think dark blue background for sew-on insignia should work for all field uniforms, BBDU and ABU. In order to make the item easier to procure and keep costs down.

Khaki pants with CAP polo and/or Blazer would be great Corp uniforms for those out of grooming standards. It's also inexpensive.

As far as ABU transitioning, I'd still like to see some provision for transition boots... as in allowance of Sage Green boots to be worn with BDU from date of ABU phase-in to date of BDU phase-out as to lower burdens to membership.

Authorize Sage Green boots to be worn with USAF style flight suit same time as Phase-in for ABU.

For TPU... change current black (US Army) lightweight jacket to blue (USAF) lightweight jacket to be worn with new blue epaulets with CAP on them. NCOs wold wear blank blue epaulets with CAP and metal NCO grade on them. Create and authorize optional CAP emblem to be embroidered on the left breast of jacket to align with USAF. Also, authorize wear of embroidered chevrons to be worn on sleeves for NCOs and blue epaulets with embroidered grade and CAP for Flight Officers.

[JohnKachenmeister]

A couple of points on afge's comment:

Good idea to authorize sage green boots with the flight suit, once SG boots are brought in with the ABU.  No reason to buy two sets of $150 boots.

I recommend against using pin-on grade with epaulet slides.  The Army did that back in the 60's and it sucked.  The slide got tore up to the point that it was unusable within a few weeks.  And the Army slides were of far better quality than the CAP slides Vanguard sells us.

[afgeo4]

A couple of points on afge's comment:

Good idea to authorize sage green boots with the flight suit, once SG boots are brought in with the ABU.  No reason to buy two sets of $150 boots.

I recommend against using pin-on grade with epaulet slides.  The Army did that back in the 60's and it sucked.  The slide got tore up to the point that it was unusable within a few weeks.  And the Army slides were of far better quality than the CAP slides Vanguard sells us.

Do you suggest slides with embroidered NCO chevrons and CAP on them?

[mikeylikey]

^ I would love to suggest no slides at all.  But that would never fly.  I say leave the metal rank on the windbreaker and Corporate Jacket.  IT is not hurting anyone is it?  PLUS slides on the windbreaker is stupid (rain, snow, any weather really tears them up)

[afgeo4]

^ I would love to suggest no slides at all.  But that would never fly.  I say leave the metal rank on the windbreaker and Corporate Jacket.  IT is not hurting anyone is it?  PLUS slides on the windbreaker is stupid (rain, snow, any weather really tears them up)

First, metal grade on USAF lightweight jacket (windbreaker) won't be authorized by USAF as it will be identical in appearance to the Air Force one.

Second, we wear slides on all USAF style outergarments and have for years. I haven't experienced terrible wear and tear (I don't wear blues in the field or every day.)

Also, metal pin on rank on slides work just fine for cadets and has for generations. I think you're confusing CAP use of uniforms with military use. Our members wear blues maybe.... 15 days a year?

[mikeylikey]

^ Sorry I meant the "Army Windbreaker". 

I was "Rained on and snowed on" while wearing blues, and the slides from CAPMART years ago faded where the water touched.  It looked terrible. 

I guess everyone's experience is different. 

If we are going to wear slides on everything, I would suggest embroidered, to include cadets.  Once enough cadet embroidered slides hit the SQD's cadets can just "trade up" their old slides when being promoted.

[afgeo4]

^ Sorry I meant the "Army Windbreaker". 

I was "Rained on and snowed on" while wearing blues, and the slides from CAPMART years ago faded where the water touched.  It looked terrible. 

I guess everyone's experience is different. 

If we are going to wear slides on everything, I would suggest embroidered, to include cadets.  Once enough cadet embroidered slides hit the SQD's cadets can just "trade up" their old slides when being promoted.

Cadet officers DO wear the said slides already, but with pin-on rank. It works quite well for them. Cadet Airmen and NCOs don't wear any slides at all.

[jayleswo]

Cadet officers DO wear the said slides already, but with pin-on rank. It works quite well for them. Cadet Airmen and NCOs don't wear any slides at all.

Cadet Officers do not wear the epaulet slides on outerwear, such as the service jacket, windbreaker, etc. they pin their grade onto either the shoulderboards for the service jacket or directly to the epaulet for the lightweight jacket. Since the cadet epaulet slides are not exposed to the elements I don't think you can compare the wear experience of epaulet slides to seniors in the same way.

However, I do agree with afgeo4's suggestion to allow the blue lightweight jacket to be worn with the corporate uniform with epaulet slides vs. pin on grade. I have seen quite a few senior member officers do this regardless of the regularion and this would be a good fix.

John Aylesworth, Lt Col, CAP
Commander, PCR-CA-151

[afgeo4]

Cadet officers DO wear the said slides already, but with pin-on rank. It works quite well for them. Cadet Airmen and NCOs don't wear any slides at all.

Cadet Officers do not wear the epaulet slides on outerwear, such as the service jacket, windbreaker, etc. they pin their grade onto either the shoulderboards for the service jacket or directly to the epaulet for the lightweight jacket. Since the cadet epaulet slides are not exposed to the elements I don't think you can compare the wear experience of epaulet slides to seniors in the same way.

However, I do agree with afgeo4's suggestion to allow the blue lightweight jacket to be worn with the corporate uniform with epaulet slides vs. pin on grade. I have seen quite a few senior member officers do this regardless of the regularion and this would be a good fix.

John Aylesworth, Lt Col, CAP
Commander, PCR-CA-151

Cadets DO wear pin on rank on slides. They wear it on soft slides on their blouses. The subject here wasn't outerwear.

[mikeylikey]

^ Sorry again, I was referring to all outerwear.

I have seen quite a few senior member officers do this regardless of the regulation and this would be a good fix.

That is exactly the reason we are in the MESS we are in.  That is a blatant violation of published rules.  Senior Members making up their own rules as they go along.  I would say the blue AF windbreaker would be best with the Corporates, but it was not included.

As far as slides go, I could care one way or another, but if we go to slides on everything, I hope they are embroidered with rank and are blue for both Cadets and Officers. 

[teesquared]

I have seen quite a few senior member officers do this regardless of the regulation and this would be a good fix.

That is exactly the reason we are in the MESS we are in.  That is a blatant violation of published rules.  Senior Members making up their own rules as they go along. 

I agree. I don't think we should rewrite the rules to conform to the violators. Seniors should be required to follow the rules or wear a different uniform.

[SStradley]

I have seen quite a few senior member officers do this regardless of the regulation and this would be a good fix.

That is exactly the reason we are in the MESS we are in.  That is a blatant violation of published rules.  Senior Members making up their own rules as they go along. 

I agree. I don't think we should rewrite the rules to conform to the violators. Seniors should be required to follow the rules or wear a different uniform.

Except in this discussion where we are discussing changes to the uniforms and uniform regulations.  Allowing the blue windbreaker with the TPU makes sense.  It still has "CAP Slides" and is over a white shirt.  It does not make the Fat & Fuzzy look (any more) like a USAF Officer. This change allows a member to have one windbreaker that he can use for two uniforms.  For example my Son can't make up his mind about a beard.  He  grows one, and then he shaves it off.  So some times he is in "Blues" and some times he is in "White & Grays".  One windbreaker makes good sense and saves money.  (I am not trying to change the regs for my son, just using him as an example.)