CAP Oath v Air Force Oath

[Smithsonia]

Does this bother any one else, because it bothers me. The Civil Air Patrol Promotion
Oath is below. Below that is the Air Force Officers Oath.

My problem is that we are required by Oath to Obey the Orders Of Officers appointed over us.
Not obey "Lawful Orders." Not Obey Orders that are "right", "correct", "principled"... obey all orders, period.

However, Air Force Officers, on the other hand, "will faithfully discharge the duties of the Office." Leaving room for Lawful, or Correct because faithful is less that "Obey."

To me this is a rather large hole in somebody's head, possibly mine. SO if ordered I can be made to
water board? AND, give the excuse - "Just following Orders." I like the Air Force Oath. I do not like the
CAP Oath. Don't forget their are officers appointed over us who are - Project Officers and people with modest
skills, experience, and/or ability to reason through a particular issue/problem.

CAP Oath
I, (full name), having been promoted to the grade of __________ in the Civil Air Patrol, do
solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and comply with the Constitution, Bylaws and
regulations of the Civil Air Patrol; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental
reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge all duties and
responsibilities as well as obey the orders of the officers appointed over me according to
regulations, so help me God.

Air Force Officer's Oath
I, (state your full name) /// having been appointed a Captain in the United States Air Force /// do solemnly swear /// that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States /// against all enemies, foreign and domestic /// that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same /// that I take this obligation freely /// without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion /// and that I will well and faithfully discharge /// the duties of the office which I am about to enter /// so help me God.

[Major Carrales]

Does this bother any one else, because it bothers me. The Civil Air Patrol Promotion
Oath is below. Below that is the Air Force Officers Oath.

My problem is that we are required by Oath to Obey the Orders Of Officers appointed over us.
No obey "Lawful Orders." Not Obey Orders that are "right", "correct", "principled"... obey all orders, period.

However, Air Force Officers, on the other hand, "will faithfully discharge the duties of the Office." Leaving room for Lawful, or Correct because faithful is less that "Obey."

To me this is a rather large hole in somebody's head, possibly mine. SO if ordered I can be made to
water board? AND, just give the excuse - "Just following Orders." I like the Air Force Oath. I do not like the
CAP Oath.

CAP Oath
I, (full name), having been promoted to the grade of __________ in the Civil Air Patrol, do
solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and comply with the Constitution, Bylaws and
regulations of the Civil Air Patrol; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental
reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge all duties and
responsibilities as well as obey the orders of the officers appointed over me according to
regulations, so help me God.

Air Force Officer's Oath
I, (state your full name) /// having been appointed a Captain in the United States Air Force /// do solemnly swear /// that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States /// against all enemies, foreign and domestic /// that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same /// that I take this obligation freely /// without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion /// and that I will well and faithfully discharge /// the duties of the office which I am about to enter /// so help me God.

I had published the CAP Promotion oath in my newsletter years ago, however most people mostly have never heard of it. 

No one can show me where it was codified in CAP regs.  They were released and then forgotten.

[AlphaSigOU]

It first popped up in an email or ICL from HWSNBN. I think it's either in 39-2 or 35-5.

[Major Carrales]

It first popped up in an email or ICL from HWSNBN. I think it's either in 39-2 or 35-5.

Are they really?  I don't recall seeing them.  If they are there then I guess we should be following them.

[Smithsonia]

I believe that the Promotion Oath is "encouraged" to be given by the Commander. Unless I have missed it somewhere -- There is nothing that compels one to utter it or take it. That said, this is real and I suppose that it can become a "deal" too. I just
can't imagine why someone didn't catch it sooner.

[D2SK]

You are affirming that you will comply with the orders of officers appointed over you according to regulations.

What's the problem with that?

You know, after spending some time on this website, respectfully, you guys complain a lot.

[Rotorhead]

You know, after spending some time on this website, respectfully, you guys complain a lot.

Although Smithsonia is a friend of mine, I have to agree that, overall, you are correct.

While we're on the subject, though....why is it that that Oath of Office for Commander in Chief--the guy with more responsibility--is substantially shorter than CAP's version of an oath?

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

vs.

"I, (full name), having been promoted to the grade of __________ in the Civil Air Patrol, do
solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and comply with the Constitution, Bylaws and
regulations of the Civil Air Patrol; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental
reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge all duties and
responsibilities as well as obey the orders of the officers appointed over me according to
regulations, so help me God."

[RiverAux]

Your squadron commander may order you to waterboard someone, but you are not required to do so as I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be in accordance with CAP regulations.  If you read a bit further in the oath, we are required to follow orders in accordance with CAP regulations.  Even if in accordance with CAP regulation, a CAP order is not a LAWFUL order in my book since we are not required BY LAW to follow any CAP order.

Besides if a CAP member orders someone to break the real law I am 100% confident that no one will get kicked out of CAP (which is the only real punishment for not following a CAP order) for refusing the order. 

[Major Carrales]

You are affirming that you will comply with the orders of officers appointed over you according to regulations.

What's the problem with that?

You know, after spending some time on this website, respectfully, you guys complain a lot.

You noticed this?  There is a good chance that some 50% or more of the people who post here have some grievance with CAP (be it an institutional critique or with some individual or with some very local CAP matter that exists only to their experience) and vocalize/vent some 92% of the time.

[RiverAux]

Are you kidding? Its nowhere near that high.  Try visiting the only active CG Aux board.  Thats where you see that almost all posters are "disgruntled former members".  Here we've only got a couple of people who can be counted on to only put up negative posts. 

[Major Carrales]

Are you kidding? Its nowhere near that high.  Try visiting the only active CG Aux board.  Thats where you see that almost all posters are "disgruntled former members".  Here we've only got a couple of people who can be counted on to only put up negative posts.

Are you sure...?  What about the schmendricks that, every three or four weeks, post up a topic about "American Flag Patches."  Or the people who think that CAP is incapable of having meaningful training or programs (self loathing) and stark knocking everything from the CAP Chaplaincy to OPSEC training (Ask Ned about how he has suffered the slings and arrows about Anti-Suicide Awareness in CAP)?  Or the insipid commentary (all negative) when a new reg comes out? Or when people start to suggest conspiracy where none is (Anti-Vanguard threads read a bell)? 

In fact, witht eh stink of irony, this post is in itself is a form of complaint about complaining.


Are you kidding?  Complaining makes up a great percentage of what happens here.  Then they lock the topic before any compromises can be reached. Nice chatty posts were people from different sections of the country start share comradeship are locked for being non-CAP related.

It has gone down a bit, but just wait a bit.

CAPTALK's Soul is one of complaint.  Why else talk about anything.

[heliodoc]

Even for some of us "negative posters" who really like to read SOME CAPers who TRY too hard to be an organization they are not

CAP is a fine Search and Recover organization. IT is is not, however a"true" military organization.  BUT we would be best served if the CAP NHQ truly would pattern itself after the RM and get ORGANIZED

Organized as far as 39-1, "Officer Oath's" etc

Again...... a FINE organization with with some true growing pains trying to be military and the like...65 years isn't too long to get it "write"  Now how about rewriting the Oath???

[Major Carrales]

Again...... a FINE organization with with some true growing pains trying to be military and the like...65 years isn't too long to get it "write"  Now how about rewriting the Oath???

The oath is only about two years old (Circa 2007).  Before then, there was no such thing as a promotion oath.  There was only an oath of application.

[Smithsonia]

RiverAux, Rotorhead. etc.

The way that the Oath is constructed... the onus is on the Officer who does NOT obey the order because of a legal or regulation problem with the order... not the person who is issuing the command. Meaning as an officer under this oath, I am to obey, unless I suppose, I can immediately supply the legal reason or regulation. In the military it is the responsibility of the officer to deliver a legal order. That way no one questions if the order is legal. In our case, every order becomes suspect as it is on the order-ee to respond and obey.

It really should be the responsibility of the Ordering Officer. I've had it come up twice so far. Once I gave an order to a bunch of cadets that another and junior officer countermanded and for good reason (it was unsafe and I am grateful for the officer who set it straight. I ordered double time in the rain so to get them off the drill pad faster. Better they get a little more wet than break a bone in a slip and fall.) another time, I countermand a superior because of a regulation, which took me about a week to find... but as it was specifically against regulations but not often quoted or well known, and I couldn't site it specifically at the time... he was grateful that I caught his mistake or violation.

In both cases we were working this out in a collegial basis and there was no discredit or disrespect shown or taken. BUT, the CAP oath is more strict than the way we usually work in CAP. More strict than in the military versions of same oaths and frankly it is not a good clause. If there is a complaint - It is not with CAP per se' it is with the man or woman who wrote the thing.

[heliodoc]

^^^

Sorry about that, Sir

But again after 65 years of existence, this is one thing CAP would TRY to get right EVEN if 2 years old

I do not recall an Oath back in the 1970's as a cadet, so to speak but there was one. so what's all the excitement about Oaths now being CAP Senior Officers?" 

Been in 4 yrs now as a SM and did not need one in 2005?

Been in the field too much these last 2 years as a forester and wildland fire type that I personally did not pay too much attention.  But I will still reiterate, what is all the excitement about reading an Oath after promos?

Seems like a LITTLE too much pomp and circumstance for so little.....

Sooooo for two years.......... well 

[Rotorhead]

If there is a complaint - It is not with CAP per se' it is with the man or woman who wrote the thing.

Would that be Tony Pineda?

[Major Carrales]

^^^

Sorry about that, Sir

But again after 65 years of existence, this is one thing CAP would TRY to get right EVEN if 2 years old

I do not recall an Oath back in the 1970's as a cadet, so to speak but there was one. so what's all the excitement about Oaths now being CAP Senior Officers?" 

Been in 4 yrs now as a SM and did not need one in 2005?

Been in the field too much these last 2 years as a forester and wildland fire type that I personally did not pay too much attention.  But I will still reiterate, what is all the excitement about reading an Oath after promos?

Seems like a LITTLE too much pomp and circumstance for so little.....

Sooooo for two years.......... well

I agree with the idea that we should have a correct oath.  I know the Cadet oath by heart, although I was never a cadet.  It outlines what they are to do. 

Most promotion ceremonies in our unit are somber affairs, a person is recognized and given the "emblem" of their rank and office. 

Anyone who envisions that the whole of the unit gathers in a formation, dresses the rows and columns and then awaits the necessary bugle call to call the formation to attention lives in a realm of fantasy. 

Ours is very much a frontier post.

[Rotorhead]

^^^

Sorry about that, Sir

But again after 65 years of existence, this is one thing CAP would TRY to get right EVEN if 2 years old

I do not recall an Oath back in the 1970's as a cadet, so to speak but there was one. so what's all the excitement about Oaths now being CAP Senior Officers?" 

Been in 4 yrs now as a SM and did not need one in 2005?

Been in the field too much these last 2 years as a forester and wildland fire type that I personally did not pay too much attention.  But I will still reiterate, what is all the excitement about reading an Oath after promos?

Seems like a LITTLE too much pomp and circumstance for so little.....

Sooooo for two years.......... well

I agree with the idea that we should have a correct oath.  I know the Cadet oath by heart, although I was never a cadet.  It outlines what they are to do. 

Most promotion ceremonies in our unit are somber affairs, a person is recognized and given the "emblem" of their rank and office. 

Anyone who envisions that the whole of the unit gathers in a formation, dresses the rows and columns and then awaits the necessary bugle call to call the formation to attention lives in a realm of fantasy. 

Ours is very much a frontier post.

If that defines "frontier," then I'd wager that most CAP units are "frontier" posts.

[Major Carrales]

If there is a complaint - It is not with CAP per se' it is with the man or woman who wrote the thing.

Would that be Tony Pineda?

And, because of the CAP Political climate of that time, everything good or bad that was proposed from CAPNHQ at that time is viewed through an undying haze of suspicion. 

While there were problems inherent at that time at CAP NHQ, remember these edicts had to be voted for and codified by vote.  Lots of folks could not stand the "US CIVIL AIR PATROL" tapes, yet I was watching when they were brought up "off the menu" and not one bird colonel protested nor voted "nay."

Any idea how many people serving on the National Board in 2007 are still in command today?

As for the oaths, I never say them voted on and if they are codified in CAP's regulations, then I guess we should do them.

[Eclipse]

If there is a complaint - It is not with CAP per se' it is with the man or woman who wrote the thing.

Would that be Tony Pineda?

Blasphemer!

The name of He Who Shall Remain Nameless has been spoken.  Who shall cast the First Stone?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erthun0Pauc