Comply or not?

[RogueLeader]

NOTE ; this is a thinking scenario:  NOT reality.

Situation, there is a rebellion in response to the complete erosion of personal freedoms and the institution of a socialist State.  The CAP has been called up in its AF Aux status.  The President has announce Martail Law and invoked TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 15 > § 332 which states

Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion.

What would you fight with the Military?


Again, I'm not saying this can or would happen; just what would you do if we were faced with the question.

[Tubacap]

Interesting situation isn't it...

[Al Sayre]

Define "fight with", alongside or against the armed forces of oppression?

[Senior]

...to defend against enemies foriegn and DOMESTIC....
I think this thread is treading on thin ice

[Eclipse]

You might want to hit the spell check next time as well.

As to this rebellion, are we talking about X-Wings?  Cause I'm all about X-Wings. Also light sabers...yeah light sabers are happening....

[RogueLeader]

Define "fight with", alongside or against the armed forces of oppression?

With: alongside Mil in putting down Rebellion, not weapons but working against them.
NO: Refuse either side, neutral
Join the Rebellion: Defy CAP orders and actively participate in Rebellion- in whatever meathod you choose.

[Major Lord]

Jeepers, the President would never do something against the Constitution, so your question is totally hypothetical right?

Your question presupposes that CAP would be called up as CAP, which is to say, a noncombatant volunteer force. So "fighting" would not be an issue. Whether we could be utilized in a noncombat role is another issue. Of course, the citizenry has the obligation as members of the irregular militia to aid in the suppression of riots, etc., and anyone legally obligated to serve de Jure as a member of the militia ( white males between the ages of 14 and 42 or something along those lines, per the act of militia, 1776) could be compelled to aid the regular federal authorities in the fulfillment of their mission. CAP members are not exempted from any civic duty, or obligated to any special duties as a function of being a member of CAP. Legally, we have the same standing as shoe salesmen at J.C. Penny's.

The larger question is whether an individual (who may or may not have sworn a binding oath to support and defend the Constitution, etc) is obligated to obey an unlawful order. The answer is well established: You have no duty to obey an unlawful order, but they can hang you later if you are proved wrong.

So without reading too much into the question, let me rephrase it: Would you be willing to bear arms against Americans for the purpose of establishing or supporting an unlawful and illegitimate regime? The answer again I believe  is self evident.

I don't think anyone should fear your question, nor do I think you are on thin ice. If you have a sworn duty to defend the Constitution, I think you are best served by understanding what that oath means. A few years ago, a survey was conducted by the Clinton people asking Marines if they would comply with an order to go door to door to seize privately held firearms if ordered to do so. Overwhelmingly, they responded in the affirmative, but what would they really do? Does the average 17 Year old Marine really understand his larger duty to his Country? I hope so.

Major Lord
p.s. Anyone wearing a hello kitty storm trooper outfit has forever lost the moral highground in criticizing us Scots about our kilts!

[RogueLeader]

Right for the most part^^^

Totally hypothetical.

The situation is that the govenrment has turned into the socialist government, and the Rebellion is to fight it and re-establish the Constitution  and laws back to what the Original framers had intended.

Yes CAP called up as CAP.


BTW, that is NOT Storm Tropper armor.  It's Darth Vaderina armor.

[PA Guy]

I think I better go find my tin foil hat. Hypothetically of course

[biomed441]

Well, that would be quite the situation wouldn't it.  Hmmmmm what would I do.........I would.........probably move to Texas. 

[PaulR]

My oath was to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America...

This is a dangerous topic, in my opinion. 

[biomed441]

You might want to hit the spell check next time as well.

As to this rebellion, are we talking about X-Wings?  Cause I'm all about X-Wings. Also light sabers...yeah light sabers are happening....

I'm more partial to the A-wing myself. And yeah, lightsabers kick A$$!

[Major Lord]

There is nothing per se in the Constitution from that prevents the citizenry from enacting socialist reforms through lawful means, and it would be treasonous to make war on the United States if it adopted more socialist policies through democratic and lawful means. You would of course have the same recourse that the socialists did, to achieve a change of government through lawful means.

Some people hold the position that certain rights are unalienable (where would we get a right-wing wack-wack, tinfoil-hat wearing belief system like that?) granted by our creator, and codified, not granted, by the Constitution. (look it up-its right near the front) Any tyrant abridging these fundamental rights is doing so unlawfully, and there is no legal foundation for a government throwing off the chains placed upon it by the people.  The founding fathers must have had quite a dilemna when it came time to take arms against their sovereign king, but apparently the argument that these unalieable rights supercedes the "rights' of governments to "rule" won out in the long run. I tend to think they did the right thing.

Major Lord

[RogueLeader]

Who said socialist reforms.  Just go as stated, if not clear, ask  and I'll clarify by whay I meant.  And yes, this is still hypothetical.

If you want I can change it up. . . .

[Viper QA]

I know this was meant to be a "what if" poll, but I really hate this kind of stuff. I don't know if you meant for people to read into this or not, but let's face it we wouldn't be having this conversation if not for President Obama.

I think all the hype over Barack Obama being a Socialist who wants to destroy America is non-sense. America is never going to be socialist and Barack Obama does not want to destroy America. America is not going to collapse, nor is there going to be any revolution. The American Republic is strong and will steam through these troubling times.

For the record, I am a conservative who did not vote for Barack Obama, but he is my President and I hope he can help fix some of the problems we are having. I will say that I am not very optimistic about his ideas, nor do I agree with his politics, but I wish him well. I think by the mid-term elections most people will realize that his liberal agenda is not right for America and we will see a move back to the center-right. I believe that unless a miracle happens he will be a one term President.

Let's not forget that most of the trouble we are in was caused by a two-term Republican President. I voted for President Bush, but let's face it he made a great deal of mistakes that we will pay for well into the future.

America will be fine. Barack Obama is not a Socialist, Communist, Muslim, or America hater. He is simply an elitist Democrat who is very, very, liberal.

I'm more worried about the cuts to DoD programs like the F-22 Raptor than anything else.

[RogueLeader]

If you hate it, why post?

Maybe it is because of whom is in charge, maybe not.  It might be because of the enitre situation we are in.

Also, there is a problem with thinking about tough moral issues. 

The real inspiration of this came from a werid conjunction between the current social situation and PCA thread.  I figured that it could give us a mental workout.  I'm not sorry if you don't care for it. 

[Johnny Yuma]

Hint: The answer is "D"

In fact, those who said "YES" really scare me...

[Flying Pig]

Seeing as how we are not the militia.  I guess it doesnt apply to us anyway.  We cant be "ordered up" as CAP members anyway, by anyone, unless you VOLUNTEER to go.

[tjaxe]

I also think this thread is on thin ice.  I don't see how this can do anything but boil tempers and cause rigid stances and opinions. 

[JayT]

Isn't this in the same vein as "America gets invaded?"

[cap235629]

I swore an oath to support and defend the constitution.  I voted no because I can quit CAP at any time and think it would be wrong to wear the uniform of the enemy if your situation should come to pass.

I will be holding a sign on Wednesday at the local tea Party that says:

"It's the Constitution, Stupid"

And this is directed at ALL politicians, ALL parties, ALL public servants, ALL AMERICANS.  It is intended to get folks to read this document and ask the right questions..

YMMV

[Gunner C]

My oath also is to the constitution, neither the government nor the president.  If the government had shreded it, then my path is clear.  But there are a couple of problems with this.  

First, the military would not move against the US populace.  Military leaders have no stomache at all for fighting American citizens, especially if it were illegal.  The military knows its place well and the chain of command from JCS to every company grade officer, with few exceptions, would resign en masse.    

Second, the legislature and the courts would call an end to it.  The congress has no stomache for goon squads - we went through that with Woodrow Wilson and it didn't go well.  

Third, the states wouldn't allow it.  That is why each state has its own army and air force.  Each state, if necessary, would defend its own borders.

I don't see any way that this scenario could play out.  Our government is incredibly stable with more safeguards than meet the eye.  But if everything fell apart, I would stand shoulder-to-shoulder with patriots to defend our rights and the constitution just as my 5th great grandfather did in 1771 in the battle of Alamance in the Regulator War in North Carolina.  

[JohnKachenmeister]

Actually, Russian intel figues that this is exactly what will happen.  They have already calculated that the US will break apart into (I think) 6 or 8 regional republics.  NY and the Northeast will form one.  Texas will form another, as will California, Washington, and Oregon.  The Old Confederacy will rise again (minus Texas), The Midwest will be another, and Idaho and Montana will form one more.  They expect this to happen within a year or two.

The Russians are planning to occupy Alaska when this happens, and they are arming Chavez in Venezuela to work with Cuba in attacking the Old Confederacy (plus Texas).

If Cuba invades Miami, will anyone notice?

I'm not making this up.  This is actually what they think will happen and what they are actually planning to do to exploit it.

[smj58501]

I think my poll about who everyone wanted to win the Super Bowl was more "CAP relevant" than this poll.... and the buzzkills locked it after about 20 minutes.  

[JayT]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika_(TV_miniseries)

[Short Field]

When they want me, all they have to do is move me from the retired list to the active list.    Something about a goverment for the people and by the people (that means a majority) as well as something about all enemies, foreign and domestic.  There is always some group claiming the goverment is betraying the people and all correct minded people need to rebell.  Last major outbreak of this was in 1861.

[flyerthom]

You might want to hit the spell check next time as well.

As to this rebellion, are we talking about X-Wings?  Cause I'm all about X-Wings. Also light sabers...yeah light sabers are happening....

[Gunner C]

When they want me, all they have to do is move me from the retired list to the active list.    Something about a goverment for the people and by the people (that means a majority) as well as something about all enemies, foreign and domestic.  There is always some group claiming the goverment is betraying the people and all correct minded people need to rebell.  Last major outbreak of this was in 1861.

As I said before, the threshold would be extremely high.  That's why I don't think it could happen - stability in our system is multilayered.  We've weathered Van Buren, Wilson, and Nixon. (there were other dunderhead presidents, those were just the ones that came to mind.)

[es_g0d]

I fight the Empire.

(Blue 4 standing by...)

[CadetProgramGuy]

I voted no, and my reasoning is quite simple.

If there is an invasion of the USA by known or unknown persons and the government is overthrown......

I would join up with whatever military I could find the fight with them.

CAP is not a fighting unit of the AF, and if worse comes to worse we would then me militarized by the President then the discussion of volunteer just went out the window.

[RogueLeader]

Again, at what point did I say we were invaded or overthrown?  I said "complete erosion of personal freedoms and the institution of a socialist State"

This meant a slow and deliberate change of our government from its current state to a socailist one.

There is no outside influence pressuring us to do it, other than the influence our leaders bring in, whomever they be.

Again, this is not designed to be a political discussion, but to think about hard moral choices that (I hope) we never have to truely answer in real life.  it is my conviction that the more that we prepare ourselves to think critically, and make tough calls can make us better people and better CAP Officers/NCOs/Cadets.  Thats it.

[JayT]

Again, at what point did I say we were invaded or overthrown?  I said "complete erosion of personal freedoms and the institution of a socialist State"

This meant a slow and deliberate change of our government from its current state to a socailist one.

There is no outside influence pressuring us to do it, other than the influence our leaders bring in, whomever they be.

Again, this is not designed to be a political discussion, but to think about hard moral choices that (I hope) we never have to truely answer in real life.  it is my conviction that the more that we prepare ourselves to think critically, and make tough calls can make us better people and better CAP Officers/NCOs/Cadets.  Thats it.

You do what you feel is right. I think if the country ever gets to that point, all of the oaths and what not go out the window.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Well, someone successfully read between the lines.

Obama is a socialist. This is easily proven. (Bush essentially was, too, but it's not so easy to point to a pre-presidential track record as with Obama.) And the creeping socialism in America (and the erosion of freedoms that is inherently tied to socialism) has crept pretty fast in the last few months, with nationalization of many banks and at least one automaker. Where will it end?

Will someone stand up and say the Constitution has been threatened by public officials? That's what the media is supposed to be doing as watchdogs, if indeed it were to happen. It's also why the Second Amendment is important as a check and balance against the threat of tyranny. Explain that last point to many people and they don't understand -- they've been successfully brainwashed that it only protects "hunting rifles."

Will this nation survive? It's been resilient. Will the nation's direction turn? It's entirely possible. But only through education and through democratic means will it change. Socialism has failed almost everywhere it's been tried (where it hasn't failed, it hasn't run its course enough yet), but only the American Left hasn't figured it out.

Will CAP get called up? (laughing) Don't bet on it. If it were ever to mobilize, it would be in a support role.

[Major Lord]

Obama has never even directly denied being a Socialist, only used Lawyerly misdirection when the question was presented. I think his attempts at nationalizing the banks and healthcare system of the country and ceding American sovereignty to international interests are prima facia evidence of that, even if his personal history did not make that clear.

Major Lord

[MIKE]

This is getting too political.

[cnitas]

Just wanted to get in this one before it goes -POOF-   :angel:

You know I am not so interested in a rebellion, than I am of Zombies.  Those things scare me.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I think his attempts at...ceding American sovereignty to international interests are prima facia evidence of that...

I would bet that 200 years ago, that would've been called treason. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land.

[cnitas]

Ok,
When exactly has he attempted to 'cede American sovereignty to international interests'?

[Nathan]

Socialism has failed almost everywhere it's been tried (where it hasn't failed, it hasn't run its course enough yet), but only the American Left hasn't figured it out.

Eh... I think that's hard to prove.

If America became completely socialist, what would I do? I'd protect America, as I would expect anyone else would do. Why? Because that process that Americans value so dearly, the right to vote and make decisions as a country, would likely have been what led to socialism in the first place. It is not for one person, whether it's the President or anyone else, to tell everyone else what's right for them. Granted, it's not for the majority either, but I would imagine that democracy is the best thing we can do next to hypothetically perfect anarchy.

The point is that IF Obama was a socialist, and IF he intended to turn the country into a socialist country, it doesn't matter in the slightest. America elected him, and America elected everyone who is in Congress supporting his policies. So if a rebellion came up because socialism was freely elected into American politics, that would be an uprising against the lawful government. It would be the job of any man and woman in uniform to protect that, regardless of whether or not they agree with the lawful government.

People seem to have this idea that "democracy" and "American democracy" are the same thing. If we wanted to have democracy, we could have left Iraq a long time ago. But we know that if we let the people vote for their leaders, they would likely vote to have their system put right back the way it was before we got there. So instead, we want "American democracy" where we know the people will vote to continuously be allowed to vote. THAT is the difference.

You know I am not so interested in a rebellion, than I am of Zombies.  Those things scare me.

Not me. I am MORE than ready for the Zompocalypse. 

[RogueLeader]

PLEASE

whether or not i think our CiC is or is not a socialist, it does not matter to the question at hand.  this is NOT about President Obama.    I do not want this specific to any current event.  Please do not read into this more than what is there.

I thgink that all members in CAP need a Moral Leadership question now and then.  While this may not be they specific type of Moral Leadership, sorry, Character Developement senario that is usually given or prefered.  It does not hurt to think of what can happen, or how fast.  The point is:  When you suddenly realize that the situation is a lot worse than what you honestly believed it would; what do you do then?

I honestly believe that we are not at that point, and I pray that we never do; but again, what if it does happen and you have little time to decide? 

I prefer to know where I stand.
I know where I stand.

How about you?

[cnitas]

PLEASE

whether or not i think our CiC is or is not a socialist, it does not matter to the question at hand.  this is NOT about President Obama.   

I am afraid it is about President Obama.

I am 32 years old, and I have a sense that I am a younger senior member.  President Obama could be president for the next 8 years.  I will be 40, making others what? 55+. 

I have perhaps 1 more president after him where I will be fit enough to 'join the fight' if you will.

So, if it is going to happen on 'my watch', it will be either with the current President, or the next.