The "Don't Hurt your feelings police"

Started by jimmydeanno, September 08, 2008, 05:39:04 PM

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jeders

Quote from: davedove on September 09, 2008, 03:41:23 PM
I have to agree with the good Major here.  It's fine and dandy to say "check the regs" but for a lot of new CAP members, they have no idea where to look.

Gently guide those seeking advice.  Let them know the appropriate reg, then explain what it says.

Let me clarify my earlier statement. I have no problem helping someone find the answer or clarify interpretations, as long as they at least look at the reg. I also have no problem saying, "look at CAPX AB-C which can be found at such and such location." I am not, however, going to just give them the answer.

What a lot of people dogpile on, and yes they do dogpile, and starts people getting their feelings hurt is when somone comes in without even trying to find the answer on their own, without even thinking about looking at the regs, and expects us to just give them the answer to a simple question.

With regards to other things, like a motivational poster or being told to shave, if it's not directed at you and you think it's mean, then don't partake. If it is directed at you and you think it's mean, learn to realize that 9 times out of 10 we aren't meaning to be mean. We either want to make a point with a little humor, or get someone to take a little more pride in themselves and their uniform.

As my mother is so fond of saying, cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Eclipse

#41
Quote from: heliodoc on September 09, 2008, 03:47:59 PM
Not everyone has access to a computer or laptop and YES to all those CAP members that have said "go look it up"   Guess we'll all be carrying laptops including those cadets who may or may not have one

That mantra is getting really old.  That's basically a "dog ate my homework" excuse.

The reality is that finding CAP members who don't have access to a computer is increasingly difficult, unless you don't work, go to school, know where a library is, or attend squadron meetings. This is the universe in which we live.

There is also the fact that most mainstream  game consoles can access the tubes as well.

While a notebook computer may not be a part of your universe, its a part of it for about 3/4's of the CAP members I know, including cadets, and an increasingly large number of members can access & read CAP regs on their cell phones.

(and a few are reading this that way right now.)

"That Others May Zoom"

Sleepwalker

   This is a great disscussion! 

   Being relatively new to CAP, I read many more threads than I post on.  After a while it becomes obvious who is really trying to help (the vast majority of those on here) and those who are just being plain "mean" (only a few, who do nothing to add to the discussions or find solutions). 
  I have been 'spanked' for posting my views a few times, but in no way have I ever felt as if someone were 'attacking' me (but I have seen that happen to others).  When someone respectfully disagreed with my take, they would state their reasons profesionally and respectfully - as it should be. 
   I think this wesite is very healthy, having so many people that are so passionate about their CAP world.  If no one gave a flip, then there would be no CAP Talk (or CAP for that matter).  I think we all just need to be careful not to respond to a  professional disagreement with a personal attack.

     
A Thiarna, déan trócaire

Major Carrales

#43
Quote from: jeders on September 09, 2008, 04:05:20 PM

Let me clarify my earlier statement. I have no problem helping someone find the answer or clarify interpretations, as long as they at least look at the reg. I also have no problem saying, "look at CAPX AB-C which can be found at such and such location." I am not, however, going to just give them the answer.

A friend of mine standing next to me took a look at my computer and said to this...and I quote "Whoa... a real 'holier than thou' arguement on a CAP forum.  Wow!!!  And you wonder why I haven't got my fingerprint cards filled out."

You all don't realize how damaging some posts here are to CAP Public Affairs and recruiting.

Now my part...

Why aren't you going to give them the answer?  Does it hurt you to help a new fellow?

Plus, as I have come to note here...there are 1) numerous letters and policy changes that are not in any reg, 2) there are unwritten and uncodified "rules" that people here seem to hold in high regard, 3) there are USAF and other service conventions that "try as one might" will never be found in CAP publications.  4) Regional and Wing differences, 5) Local conventions and a host of other things that the attitiude of "look it up yourself" just won't answer and 6) search engines don't help people who have no "frame of reference" to the subject they are searching for.

Also, and have been needing to say this...this may be the proper time or not...

As CAP, we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard and public stance.  Some pointed out that the USAF forums are worse.  The USAF does not have to justify itself as CAP does.  Because of our dual nature and auxiliary status, we have to look professional at all times.  USAF folks can simply be granted that by wearing the uniform, the grey shouldermarks of CAP require that we work together at ALL TIMES.  When we don't we are all marked as posers and pretenders, that really mustn't be allowed.

When a problem is identified, it should be dealt with swiftly and with honor and respect.  Not with the sort of negative style of education, but with the idea that we are here to HELP and IMPROVE.

Do you know what happens in a classroom when the tactics y'all have been employing to "teach a lesson" through embarrasment is done?  Students shut down, they experience "true" (not the artificial type) low self-esteem and morale.  They shut down and lose respect for the teacher.  It leads to more problems.  Plus, the rest come to view the teacher as an "unreasonable blowhard" and general "Captain Harris," of Police Academy fame.   The quality of the group lessens.

However, when a person is approached face to face in private and the matter is talked out, the student sees the teacher as "reasonable" and many times (in almost all cases where it has happened to me) tge student improves because there is a true relationship between the two.

That is the crux of leadership in CAP...where subordiantes respect fellow CAP Officers and assist them into becoming better CAP Officers as fellows; so people will want to and look forward to accomplishing the missions...not live in fear of bullying ridicule and dogpiles.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

hatentx

reading on a phone like normal....autoword is a pian in the butt on here lol.

jeders

Sparky, if I may,

I tihnk that the disagreement here may come more from individual attitudes towards life in general, than CAP. I was always taught that it is better to be as self-sufficient as possible and to do things for yourself than to rely on someone else to do things for you. I try to live this life lesson in everything I do, including CAP. Furthermore, I try to teach this lesson to others. When I tell someone to look something up for themselves, it's not because I don't care about them or I'm being mean, it's because I'm trying to help someone be self-sufficient in this organization.

Also, it's not like I or others here just say look it up and then leave. In reality I tell someone what reg to find an answer in and where to find that reg, and if I can remember off the top of my head I give them a rough page cite. But I'm still not going to just give them an answer that they take as truth because then they don't learn how to find real answers. In other words, if I just gave someone the answer without challenging them to find it themselves, how am I being any better of an officer than someone who tells everyone that you're supposed to wear metal grade on your BDUs and you don't have to salute.

In life today, too many people take what they hear and see for granted. They expect to ask a question and then get a clear and concise answer. Then, when something the experience later contradicts that answer, they have no way of supporting that there answer is right. They simply continue doing what they've always done for no other reason than that's what someone told them once, and they took it as gospel. I would rather have a squadron full of people who think of me as a hardass and know where and how to find answers, than one full of people who love and adore me, but don't have a clue about where to find the requirements for wearing a SAR ribbon, or how to process awards.

Just my opinion on life, YMMV.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

jeders

Also, in my opinion, some people deserve to be dogpiled on when they do something really dumb. In real life, anytime I do something stupid, I fully expect the insults to start flying, usually because I'm making some myself aimed at myself. If you can't laugh at yourself, then please go somewhere else and stop killing the funny. A world without humor and laughter, even when it's directed at a single person for doing something dumb, is a world I want to send into a black hole. And if the people at CERN get it wrong, that may happen sooner than you think.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Major Carrales

#47
Jedders,

Thank you for the insight.  I respect your position and grant you a few of the points. In CAP I expect people to have that approach, to become self-sufficient and be responsible.  However, it is precarious to ask new people here to do that.  No more would I do that that I would place a 15 year old in the cab of a locomotive and have them "read the manual" to drive a section on the line.  Or a 21 year old in a cockpit with only a information page, manual and a few FAA guidebooks and the instructions to fly.  Yes, the information is there, by they must be guided.

   I have existed before in CAP where I was told "its all in the regs" and then, upon following the regs to the letter, was chastised for "not doing it according to 'established practices.'"

When I as a question here, it is likely because I have 1) red the Regulation or other guidance, 2) exhausted all local people to ask and 3) still have a question.  I suspect that everyone who comes here does so for information gatherting purposes.

There are policies and practices far beyond the "regs" in CAP.  Some people also come here and ask "basic" questions for the purpose of learning the "spirit" of them, and how to best implement the "letter" of them.

Listen, this is the largest collection of CAP data I can think of.  It is also the most "living" one.  Sometimes, if I have limited time or am away from my resources and need a quick question answered or have some point I am making validated I might post it here.

The resulting replies should provide an answer to the issue...not attitide.

Yes, we want self-reliant people who can stand on their own, but every child that learns to walk first crawls and then is guided into walking.  It is unfair to have newbies wander blindly, when they seek to see thing as they are done in practice.  Again, with no frame of reference, a REGULATION or other publication is not helpful.

That is why we are all here.

Major Carrales
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

arajca

It's one thing for a new member of someone out of pocket to ask for a reference. It's quite another for a cadet NCO, officer, or senior officer who is too lazy to look things up. I have seen a few cadets actually post that they're being lazy when they've asked for an answer.

The problem with "established practices" questions is they vary greatly. WHat's and established practice on one unit is a foriegn concept in another.

PHall

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 09, 2008, 04:36:51 PM
A friend of mine standing next to me took a look at my computer and said to this...and I quote "Whoa... a real 'holier than thou' arguement on a CAP forum.  Wow!!!  And you wonder why I haven't got my fingerprint cards filled out."

I'm not so sure that person would have joined anyway.  Sounded pretty much like an convenient excuse to me.

SarDragon

When I see someone ask a Q, I look at their "newness" to the organization. If a member less than six months, I will usually answer the Q directly, and also provide a link to additional information. After that, the poster just gets a link.

If there are "interpretations" or uncertainties to be discussed, then bring 'em on. It all goes back to the fishing lesson homily - give someone a fish and he eats for a day; teach him how to fish, and he eats for a lifetime.

As mentioned elsewhere and elsewhen, WIWAC we rarely saw a paper regulation or manual outside of our cadet study materials. All of the institutional knowledge came from the SMs. Today, information is so much more readily available that there is no reason for someone not to have a complete set of regs on their home computer.

And I don't want to hear the excuse about some folks not having computers. If someone posts here, computer access is implied.

YMMV.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

flyerthom

#51
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 08, 2008, 07:47:56 PM


Now, let's see who proves my point...Myron, the tick tock polka please...




couldn't pass this one up  >:D

In all due seriousness - one thing we should all consider is how would we feel being on the receiving  end of the comment we are about to post.

Yes many of us have been in the fire service, PD or EMS and we fry each other on a routine basis. But to Mr. Smith the accountant or the guy in I T that is utterly horrifying. Major C is on track - just take a second and think (and reread your post) about what's going out there.

The one uncountable statistic is how many potential member lurkers walk away from CAP after reading snark here?
TC

stratoflyer

"To infinity, and beyond!"

Eduardo Rodriguez, 2LT, CAP

Major Carrales

#53
Quote from: PHall on September 09, 2008, 09:57:18 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 09, 2008, 04:36:51 PM
A friend of mine standing next to me took a look at my computer and said to this...and I quote "Whoa... a real 'holier than thou' argument on a CAP forum. wow!!! and you wonder why I haven't got my fingerprint cards filled out."

I'm not so sure that person would have joined anyway.  Sounded pretty much like an convenient excuse to me.

I would say this of that.  A sane person never, unless motivated by a higher good (like saving a life) avoids situations that are hostile, potential hostile or that are needless hassles.  I think this person will join CAP, but will reject the artificial pomposity of the forums.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Major Carrales

Quote from: flyerthom on September 10, 2008, 05:03:40 AM
couldn't pass this one up  >:D

In all due seriousness - one thing we should all consider is how would we feel being on the receiving  end of the comment we are about to post.

Yes many of us have been in the fire service, PD or EMS and we fry each other on a routine basis. But to Mr. Smith the accountant or the guy in I T that is utterly horrifying. Major C is on track - just take a second and think (and reread your post) about what's going out there.

The one uncountable statistic is how many potential member lurkers walk away from CAP after reading snark here?

;)  Champaign music on CAPTALK? MIKE is likley hovering over the LOCK button. Maybe later we can hear one from Anacani.  ;D

That is the point.  The internet is so vast and searches bring up CAPTALK much more these days when searching for CAP topics that a person looking for CAP info will likely come to CAPTALK as many times as to CAP.GOV.  Thus, from a PAO stand point, posting things, issues, items of ridicule and dogpiling send a horrible message.

CAPTALK, is not a true reflection of CAP.  Of my Unit only about three people lurk here, of them only I  am a regular threadster.

The in depth discussion, however, give the reflection that this is the "PLACE," the Holy of Holies" of where CAP is reflected.  Thus, un-CAP Officer like behavior is seen as the norm.  The time then comes, they likely say "this is a group of schmendricks...why submit myself to that?"

Later today I will gather my friend's reactions and show him your replies.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Flying Pig

Then we should make it a secure site where you have to provide your identity and CAP ID number in order to register, post here, or read whats on the site.

Oh wait......a few of you are afraid to put your names on what you write......my mistake.   

ColonelJack

I've never been afraid to put my name to my posts.  But if you restrict membership to showing CAP ID numbers, or some such ... what about us retired folk or those not in the organization any more?  We wanna play too!!!

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

flyerthom

The gentleman does not needlessly and unnecessarily remind an offender of a wrong he may have committed against him. He can not only forgive; he can forget; and he strives for that nobleness of self and mildness of character which imparts sufficient strength to let the past be put the past.

Gen Robert E. Lee
TC

Eclipse

Quote from: ColonelJack on September 10, 2008, 04:44:44 PM
I've never been afraid to put my name to my posts.  But if you restrict membership to showing CAP ID numbers, or some such ... what about us retired folk or those not in the organization any more?  We wanna play too!!!

Jack

My ongoing question, with no insult intended, is "Why?"

I'd have no issue whatsoever with a closed system that required validation of identity.  It would reduce the drive-bys, eliminate lurkers, and remove entirely the "we shouldn't talk about this in public" argument.

"That Others May Zoom"

CadetProgramGuy

Quote from: Flying Pig on September 10, 2008, 03:59:51 PM
Then we should make it a secure site where you have to provide your identity and CAP ID number in order to register, post here, or read whats on the site.

Oh wait......a few of you are afraid to put your names on what you write......my mistake.   

You have my name through my email on my profile, here is my CAP ID.  Are you pleased now Lt?