Real Property

[NavLT]

I have noticed that most not for profits out there seem to be acquiring facilities and property.

I have also noticed that CAP does not.  Why?

When the BRAC commission closes a military facility can CAP get on the list to get facilities?  I would think that if we could get barracks, chow halls, classrooms on former bases they would make great locations for regional encampments, year through training locations for UCC, RCOS, etc.

From a fund raising perspective I know you get lots of support from big corporations for stuff to go in buildings but very little support to get land and buildings.  If we don't pay taxes (not saying there are none), would an initiative to get a location in most Group level locations that we own be a possiblity?

I know I am Pie in the Skying, but after 20 years of a corner in someone elses space (and thank you to them for letting us use it...) I would love to see CAP have a real home.

V/R
Lt J.

[JC004]

Money.

[Eclipse]

The executive director has indicated that "bricks and mortar" facilities will be a priority in the coming years.

With that said, the costs for even a basic facility exceed the abilities of most units, and most corporations are reluctant to provide grants for operations expenses, so even if you get a building, the upkeep can be out of reach.

I have a unit right now that just got squeezed off an airport after about some 40+ years of no-cost, excellent facilities.  Through luck and local contacts, the unit was able to get another building within a few blocks which is actually better than the one they lost, however the rent is over $300 a month and the owner is still pursuing a commercial tenant for rents over $1000.

Prior to that they only paid for utilities and even at the $1500ish a year they wear at net-zero with monthly dues.  This is a very active composite unit with about 50 engaged members from what would be considered an upper-middle-class area.

How many units do you know that could sustain fund-raising activities for operating expenses of even $1-2000 a year for utilities, let alone upwards of $10-15,000 for a commercial building (think real-estate office, or strip mall storefront with a garage at a minimum), which is what most units need, bearing in mind that most wing budgets are only in the $25-30,000 area annually.

For ease of use, $50 x 50 members is "only" $2500 a year - probably twice what most smaller units ever see.

BTW, that same unit is legitimately pursuing building a CAP facility back on the airport, with the support of the airport management.  We're looking at a modest commercial building with a hangar space and a few offices.  Most conversations come to the number $1.5 Million, yes, million, between construction costs and operating expenses.  That seems like a lot until you consider that the average home in that area starts about $300,000.

[Ned]

Every time I scrub this out, I can't make the numbers work on things like utilities and maintenance unless we charge a reasonable rental to our own units and outside customers, AND use a given facility for at least 10-12 full weeks a year in addition to at least 24 separate weekends.

Building and grounds maintenance is not inexpensive.  Everything from making sure the lawn is mowed to have a rolling fund for plumbing repairs, replacing heating and A/c units, fixing the roof leaks, and renewing the blacktop every 10 years adds up pretty quickly.

Then there is the everyday stuff: heat, lights, water & sewer, phones, net connections, etc.

We do have a few facilities owned by CAP, Inc -- Hawk is a pretty good example.  But even relatively modest operations like Hawk are a strain on the budget.


Sure, it would be nice to have our own training facilities, but without an independent income stream subsidizing the facility, it is nearly impossible to make it work.

And if I had spare resources to spend on CAP, I'd probably prioritize them into things other than buildings and grounds that are empty 85% of the time.

Ned Lee

[Eclipse]

One route being discussed is building an area EOC with cooperation from the local municipalities and other agancies.  This would potentially solve the operating expense and "empty days" issue.

But that is still an issue. How do you justify the expense and aggravation of a building that you us a total of may 20 or 30 hours total a month?

[Rotorhead]

In the early 90s, I was in a squadron that had it's own building and property. (I think they'd had been donated years earlier, but the unit still had utiltiies to pay.)

It was great--and my first exposure to CAP, so I didn't know any better.

But the structure was getting old and run-down, and the unit wanted to move, so we tried to raise the money to build even a steel-barn-type structure elsewhere.

That effort went no place; we never could make the large sums needed. As far as I know, they're still in the same old building because it is just very tough to raise that kind of money.

[jayleswo]

Our squadron, in Sacramento CA, has a small dedicated office in the basement of the terminal building, about 200 sqft, and about 500 sqft of storage all provided at no charge by the airport. Then we have free use of the two conference rooms (both with a capacity of about 50 people) in the air conditioned terminal building that has free open Wi-Fi. We could use a little more dedicated space, but the arrangement works pretty well. No utilities, upkeep, repairs or anything and A/C is a real life saver in the summer. We do get quite a bit of public exposure this way as well which helps with recruiting. Only thing I could wish for was a free hanger for our airplane. -- John

[Fireball]

Be thankful that you have a place to meet at all. My Squadron just got evicted! Fortunately we have gained some friends in high places and should have temporary quarters soon, until we can build our own place.

One thing that we ran into, there are some Govt' surplus buildings in the area but they are full of asbestos or are in serious disrepair. The previously mentioned million+ price tag is accurate, we've been getting the same kind of pricetag when we roll out our wish list. Maybe some day, but for now we'll soldier on and complete the mission with what we can beg, borrow, or scrounge.

[FW]

I have noticed that most not for profits out there seem to be acquiring facilities and property.

I have also noticed that CAP does not.  Why?

When the BRAC commission closes a military facility can CAP get on the list to get facilities?  I would think that if we could get barracks, chow halls, classrooms on former bases they would make great locations for regional encampments, year through training locations for UCC, RCOS, etc.

From a fund raising perspective I know you get lots of support from big corporations for stuff to go in buildings but very little support to get land and buildings.  If we don't pay taxes (not saying there are none), would an initiative to get a location in most Group level locations that we own be a possibility?

I know I am Pie in the Skying, but after 20 years of a corner in someone else's space (and thank you to them for letting us use it...) I would love to see CAP have a real home.

V/R
Lt J.

I know of quite a few units having their own facilities to meet, store aircraft, etc all over the  place.  We own Hawk Mt. outright. We own facilities at Oshkosh.  We will have very long term leases for NESA by next year and, I think, we'll have quite a few more places to call home in the next few years.  What's nice about these "regional training facilities" is the available money from NHQ to keep them up (NCSA fees and member donations play a major part too).

Money is the big issue, obviously.  However, I think the best bet would be to try for donated land at a publicly used airport.  WVWG is very good at getting squadron buildings constructed partnering with state govt. and donations from private sources.  Squadrons in PAWG have been successful in acquiring long term leases for land at airports and with donations, constructing/renovating buildings for use (anyone want a FEMA trailer).  

The first step in the process is "friend raising".  Establish a firm positive presence in your community.  Then try getting funds together.   See if you can get community grants.  There are some good research aids for local govt. funds. The process is difficult however, it's very possible.

[DC]

My unit is considering permanent facilities, but it is still in the 'nice to have' catagory. We currently meet in the conference room at the FBO at out airport. Its too small, but, its free, we get free Wi-Fi, access to restrooms, a copier, etc. Most of the squadron equipment is kept in a small supply room in our previous meeting place, and in the T-Hanger that the airport allows us to store our 182 in.

This is our fourth meeting place in four years: We met in the Sheriff's Aviation Unit building, and we out grew it, then a Flight School, which was good, because our area was not used by the school, so we were allowed to make it ours. But, the owner of the school needed the space, so we got kicked out. Then we met at the Fish and Wildlife Aviation Unit, for a couple months, then moved to the FBO without any real explaniation...

[NavLT]

I appreciate the feedback and I am seeing alot of what I hear around the wing.  Many units are greatfull for the charity of others but some units are not so lucky.  I saw at least 2 instances of eviction in the first page or replies.

I work the Airshow community and I have seen a modest vintage warplane group of 40 members get donations of 2 (Free) korean vintage Jets and then funding to revitalize them from altruistic sources.  I spoke to a nice woman from the Canadian Harvards who fund raised over 250,000 last year for that group with only one person pounding the pavement for the effort. 

I don't expect miracles but if it is not a stated and pursued strategy it will never come to fruition.  I am glad the Executive Director is making an adgenda Item.

I like the Joint operations center idea with local FAA, Fema, State/county Emergency Ops Idea.  It seems that if the FBO world has an organization ( ???I smile at my own ignorance at not knowing if there is one) we should be working with them for facility use with some legal/tax support from national to make it agreeable to them.

I also see the trend of lack of use, and that is an inititative/calandaring issue for the Wing/Region to push for use of a facility.  I know because we are doing the same thing with A/C assignment in our wing.  If we give a group an A/C and they put hours on the bird they might get a 2nd A/C.  If the A/C sits they loose it.  What is the difference between the two groups (not pilots on record with form 5s they are almost the same) it is the drive and focus of the leadership.

V/R
LT. J.

[Rotorhead]

I I spoke to a nice woman from the Canadian Harvards who fund raised over 250,000 last year for that group with only one person pounding the pavement for the effort. 

Great, can you get that guy?

Fundraising is a skill, not just a matter of effort.

[arajca]

One problem with CAP facilities is that National wants them to be exclusively for CAP. So a unit uses the facility 40 hours - meetings plus the usual support work - a month. The rest of the time is sits empty. A serious waste of resources.

[heliodoc]

^
Therein lies the "problem.  CAP wants it "exclusively for CAP. "  Is that in their insurance regs??

What about all these Guard and AF facilities and some emergency Mgmt offices allowing space to CAP??

Sort of a one way street, so to speak for CAP.  In this day of interagency cooperation... CAP does it again saying real estate property is exclusive.  Define it in WRITING and then we can can ALL believe the CAP bylaws regarding it otherwise we should call a BS flag on this.  It sure would be nice if CAP would regard the outer world as well as their own.

Again about that interagency cooperation thing........ CAP needs to get with it in the "REAL" world even Army National Guard is building facilities with the "community" in mind.  Now there are some caveats to that also BUT if CAP is to survive.... well I don't need to to say anymore

EXCLUSIVITY in CAP??  What would happen if other agencies started evicting US for less.... we all know it can be done

[Eclipse]

I have no issue with exclusive use with 100% CAP money building it.  Military bases are funded by the DOD, and Airmen are not selling candy bars for their hangers.

Anything CAP builds would be 100% on the corporate side of the house. 

By design, an empty building on a military facility is a waste of taxpayer's money, a CAP building isn't even a taxpayer issue, they didn't pay for it, and don't pay for the upkeep or operational costs, either.

A shared-use facility that gets HLS or other money is a different story and it would depend on a lot of factors.  We've been told, however, that most HLS grants will not fund buildings, only the stuff in them.

[heliodoc]

^

I have been thru the drill with the HLS and commo site stuff. Right HLS will NOT fund permanent structures.

Comm site with repeaters can not be perm site or perm fixtures and I have to agree.. those are infrastructure issues.  Fine with CAP (if they could EVER handle it) having facilities of their own if they funded 100% .... but again I argue with all the rented or free space CAP is getting all over the nation... then the organization ought to consider itself lucky it has space from others.

I will continue the argument... interagency cooperation.  Ever wonder why CAP is not high on some peoples priority lists for missions, facilities, etc..??  Could be their attititude... what is mine is mine and what is yours is mine. 

I do not agree on CAP not being a taxpayer issue  all those NAVIII C182's did not appear on scene for free either

[Eclipse]

I do not agree on CAP not being a taxpayer issue  all those NAVIII C182's did not appear on scene for free either

Apples and oranges.  The aircraft are used as directed by CAP-USAF and our various regs, shared with other agencies (through missions), and our people are not selling candy to pay for them.

Its not like you're going to see a local Sheriff or the USAF letting our people sign out their aircraft, either.  There's always hard-line limit on agency cooperation.

We're talking about buildings with no DOD funding, which is the only way can occur, especially in today's budget climate.

A big chunk of this problem is outside our control - CAP used to rely on facilities that don't exist anymore because of related funding issues with other agencies and services - park district buildings, FBO's, and of course all the bases that were BRAC'ed and are now condos and strip malls.
There are literally 3-4 unit charters in my group that dissolved simply because the military packed up and left, leaving no place for CAP to sit.

[NavLT]

Snip
A big chunk of this problem is outside our control - CAP used to rely on facilities that don't exist anymore because of related funding issues with other agencies and services - park district buildings, FBO's, and of course all the bases that were BRAC'ed and are now condos and strip malls.
There are literally 3-4 unit charters in my group that dissolved simply because the military packed up and left, leaving no place for CAP to sit.

The big issue is we have been watching the facilities vanish, watching the BRAC do multiple rounds and what have we done about it?  Have we started a national initiative to develop new locations to host those units?  At the upper level they shake there heads and talk about recruitment and Numbers but if there is no place for the unit to meet I wonder how that affects the membership #s? 

Most units that loose facilities have the poor unit commander (possibly new guy #9 with 6mo in the program) hunting for new digs, not being setup for success.  Maybe national needs to consider putting together a directorate to work this issue spending a week in every wing (a couple times a year) working on property issues and assisting with State Govt budget, working the fundraising philanthropists, and really working the MOU/Partnerships to get joint facilities where possible.

I only wish in my watching of the national boards, that an issue as important as this got as much discussion and strategic emphasis as the wether Major Generals got to keep their fictitious stars.  I got to sit in on a NEC meeting back in my haze grey days and Gen Anderson really pushed for how changes needed to get down to the unit level to be any good.  I miss that.

V/R
LT J.

[Eclipse]

Its hard to disagree with the above, but I don't know that this is a National issue fom a tactical standpoint - if Wing or Group isn't getting it done, how much can someone from outside do?

One place where we could use some top-down CAP-USAF help is with state Guard units.
At least in my state, the regular-military services are pretty generous with their facilities, but the local guard armories are pretty stingy, owing to their own budget and scheduling constraints.

I find it unbelievable that we have guard units charging CAP for facilities, and then the same month requesting our assistance at no cost - that's assuming we can make the connections with the proper people to even get space.  Since most of them are part-time occupied as well, CAP is treated like the YMCA and generally can't get much more than few hours a night with no permanent setups.

I've had one unit that had to move from a guard base because of expense and coordination with a new commander, and we have others in the state going bankrupt trying to pay the fees.

[NavLT]

Its hard to disagree with the above, but I don't know that this is a National issue fom a tactical standpoint - if Wing or Group isn't getting it done, how much can someone from outside do?

I don't think that national should find digs for a local unit but they should train the wing staff and offer training in the wing on doing the finding.  Also I thing the big push to get funding at the state, federal, local buisness, national buisnesss and foundation in the hands of the wings to do the development would be key.

V/R
LT J.

Tags, and please use quote instead of color tags - MIKE

[FW]

^Try working with the state director.  Some of them are pretty good in getting the ground work done (pun intended) for space at military/guard facilities.

[RiverAux]

Some random reminders from the CAP Real Estate Reg (87-1)

Sec 4.  All real estate belongs to CAP the corporation and not the local squadron, group. wing, or region.  So, you do all the fundraising and the building goes to NHQ and the National Board can do what they want with it.  As has been discussed in other fundraising/money threads, this can be a little bit of a drag to getting money from folks if they know the local unit doesn't have final control over the facility.  I'm not saying that this is actually a bad thing, but does factor in. 

Sec. 5.  Property coming to CAP has to be environmentally cleared ($$$) for hazordous waste issues.

It would be very interesting to get a listing of all real estate owned by CAP, but as with all CAP financial issues, unless you're a corporate officer you don't have any right to know anything about how CAP spends or gets its money. 

I didn't see anything limiting use to just CAP. 

[Eclipse]

As has been discussed in other fundraising/money threads, this can be a little bit of a drag to getting money from folks if they know the local unit doesn't have final control over the facility. 

Why anyone would bring this up in a fundraising pitch is beyond me.  It is a legal reality of the corporation, not a practical problem that ever actually comes up.

(now you can all trip over each other to regale me with the tale of the "one time" this "alpha-hotel" Wing CC "stole" all your money, vehicles, property, cadets, candy bars.....)

[RiverAux]

As a general rule, I'm with you on that, however, if you're trying to get somebody to give you thousands of dollars (as with a building) I'm fairly confident they're going to be asking more questions than the guys buying hotdogs at the airshow. 

[FW]

River, everything you stated is true.  However, the reality is everything that comes into CAP belongs to CAP, inc.  The responsible party (PIC) for all wing, group and squadron facilities is the Wing/CC.  It is the wing/cc who controls the real property.  This control is usually deligated to the corresponding unit/cc.  

I don't remember the NB or NEC ever taking control of a local facility.  I only remember the authorization of paying the debts off.  This is why we have "corporate ownership".

There is a master list of all the property we own.  I wouldn't mind seeing it either.  I guess I'll do some extra "homework" to get it.  I'm going to ask for overtime . As to the second part of the statement, any member can find out where we get our funds and how we spend it.  But, this has been discussed in another thread.  We'll just agree to disagree on this.

There is nothing limiting the use of CAP owned property  for CAP business.  It can be leased out to anyone; provided the proper precautions, etc. are followed.  I would encourage outside use.  It promotes CAP (friend raising) and gives the unit needed funds for O&M.  

[Eclipse]

Obviously you answer any direct questions with factual answers, but most corporate sponsors just want to see some quantifiable evidence that what they donated for actually got purchased / built / used, etc.

This is akin to the people shooting themselves in the foot regarding the WBP and telling their sponsors that now "wing can take 'your' money", which is a gross mis-characterization, completely counterproductive, and actually nothing has changed.

It always was corporate money and always will be.

Any donations over the $5k unit CC threshold are going to involve Wing anyway...

[afgeo4]

I think the point is to convince the Senate to appropriate funds to CAP for purchase/lease and maintenance of facilities.

Why should they do that? Because CAP will be a much more effective agency for the DoD and DHS. Because our level of training will go up. Because real estate, if handled properly will give a positive return on the investment. Because we need space to meet in just as much as we need airplanes to fly and vehicles to drive.

[FW]

George, your idea is a good one.  However, I think our first priority would be to find adequate facilities for a wing/hq in every wing.  Once that is accomplished, we can focus on units below.  

Now that the CAP Foundation is established, we can start finding major corporate donors for programs we currently use our own(corporate) funds for.  We can use our money to help establish local meeting places (maybe as matching funds).

I doubt if congress will appropriate more money for us at this time.  Things are pretty tight and unless a senator wants to earmark some "pocket money" to us, we're out of luck.  Then again, the NB can put "local meeting facilities" on the "wish list".  With AF permission and available (appropriated) funds, it could be done.

[RiverAux]

I do think we're missing some facts that could illuminate our conversation here...

We need to know how many units meet in totally free facilities, facilities where they pay for utililities and other small incidentals, facilities where we pay a real rent (not just token), and how many meet in buildings owned by CAP.  And, we need to know the trends in all those numbers. 

The real question though is whether or not it is really to a unit's advantage for CAP to own the property considering that CAP National is not going to support you for repairs, etc. for that property.  I think it would not at the squadron and probably the group levels. 

CAP has somewhat locked itself into the mindset that we need to meet on or near the airport.  If you drop that preconception, there are lots of facilities that can potentially be used for meeting that probably won't cost CAP anything.  Sure, they probably won't have some things that would be nice to have.  But, should the squadron be focusing on raising money to do fun activities or raising money to pay rent, a building fund, etc?  And yes, having a facility at the airport raises your profile among the pilots in the area, but isn't a necessity. 

Wings on the other hand probably could benefit from having a CAP-owned building though any of the cheap or free semi-permanent lease options can work as well.  If it is also a good site for training, that is a bonus. 

[afgeo4]

George, your idea is a good one.  However, I think our first priority would be to find adequate facilities for a wing/hq in every wing.  Once that is accomplished, we can focus on units below.  

Now that the CAP Foundation is established, we can start finding major corporate donors for programs we currently use our own(corporate) funds for.  We can use our money to help establish local meeting places (maybe as matching funds).

I doubt if congress will appropriate more money for us at this time.  Things are pretty tight and unless a senator wants to earmark some "pocket money" to us, we're out of luck.  Then again, the NB can put "local meeting facilities" on the "wish list".  With AF permission and available (appropriated) funds, it could be done.

Explain to me please why Wing HQ needs real estate more than an operational squadron? Most wing HQ members live in opposite parts of the states and don't even come to meetings. Composite squadrons use their facilities probably more than one day per week on average and do most of the actual work anyway. CAP works from the ground up and should be equipped as such.

Yes, it would be difficult to convince the senate to give us money for that, but the point is to keep asking. One day there will be money and they will give it to us. What senator wouldn't like to say he authorized money for homeland security, education, and community enrichment?

[RiverAux]

Although I'm not sure CAP ownership is absolutely necessary, each Wing does need a permanent place to call its home whether it is under a long-term lease or under CAP ownership.  At a minimum we need a place for our paid employee(s) to work, central place for supplies, records storage and retention, etc. 

[NavLT]

I have put a lot of consideration into the Wing HQ question and I think a facility that could either support an encampment or host one would be the priority, or at least a location to hold CLC/UCC/TLC,   at that point the wing could HQ there......

I have seen too many $$$ spent on an office that is not used for the main purpose of storage (records, radio Equipment, etc)  if that is the case then deploy the equipment and scan the records to digital media. 

As far a congress goes both the national and state level they spend money many more foolish initiatives than Operating costs for CAP so keep asking, ask louder, ask with more political leverage, and ask with more corporate fund raising to show we are serious.

V/R
Lt J.

[afgeo4]

I have put a lot of consideration into the Wing HQ question and I think a facility that could either support an encampment or host one would be the priority, or at least a location to hold CLC/UCC/TLC,   at that point the wing could HQ there......

I have seen too many $$$ spent on an office that is not used for the main purpose of storage (records, radio Equipment, etc)  if that is the case then deploy the equipment and scan the records to digital media. 

As far a congress goes both the national and state level they spend money many more foolish initiatives than Operating costs for CAP so keep asking, ask louder, ask with more political leverage, and ask with more corporate fund raising to show we are serious.

V/R
Lt J.

Wouldn't an agreement with a military base/camp/station fulfill these requirements?

CAP doesn't need to own these facilities, just have access to them for encampment (once or twice a year) and for courses (computerized classroom access).

We don't need to pay rent and utilities for that. Just a smoother way of requesting use of military facilities across the country.

We do need space to store vehicles, aircraft, supplies. We need space for squadrons to meet and train. We need space to have permanent, well-equipped mission bases. We need space for CAC meetings. We need buildings with classrooms and rooms to be used for ES, attached to hangars at airports, hopefully with parking lot and garage for squadrons to do all of the above.

[RiverAux]

While I could get on board with CAP owning Wing HQ, I certainly couldn't justify the cost of a facility big enough to hold an encampment.  An ideal wing hq would be adequate for holding classroom training, but spending the money on building/maintaining barracks and full kitchen and dining facilities would be a bit too much. 

[NavLT]

The Problem I see occuring is the shrinking # of bases eliminates this option from some wings all together and the wings that still have bases find them packed and unavailible due to the military neeed with shrinking bases. 

In NY they are having a ANG Base with Tents for encampment and trust me when the severe weather hit it made encampment interesting.

I agree that local facilities are needed but purchasing/building at every unit is probably not a practical line item.  But HQ for 2% is not a good expendature either.  If we purchased /constructed a training facility that was usable year round and we populated the training calandar that would be of greater use.  I also wanted to add that CLC, SLS, UCC are the CAP classes but what about hosting ICS 300/400 (the new requirement) as well.

V/R
LT J.

Wouldn't an agreement with a military base/camp/station fulfill these requirements?

CAP doesn't need to own these facilities, just have access to them for encampment (once or twice a year) and for courses (computerized classroom access).

We don't need to pay rent and utilities for that. Just a smoother way of requesting use of military facilities across the country.

[Galahad]

Although I'm not sure CAP ownership is absolutely necessary, each Wing does need a permanent place to call its home whether it is under a long-term lease or under CAP ownership.  At a minimum we need a place for our paid employee(s) to work, central place for supplies, records storage and retention, etc. 

I agree!  My wing for example could use a building the size of Wal-Mart to store all the gear, vehicles, and equipment that somehow never gets distributed out to the squadrons.  It's a good thing they don't have access to a big hangar. If they did we'd have the best small aircraft museum in all of CAP.    

[afgeo4]

The Problem I see occuring is the shrinking # of bases eliminates this option from some wings all together and the wings that still have bases find them packed and unavailible due to the military neeed with shrinking bases. 

In NY they are having a ANG Base with Tents for encampment and trust me when the severe weather hit it made encampment interesting.

I agree that local facilities are needed but purchasing/building at every unit is probably not a practical line item.  But HQ for 2% is not a good expendature either.  If we purchased /constructed a training facility that was usable year round and we populated the training calandar that would be of greater use.  I also wanted to add that CLC, SLS, UCC are the CAP classes but what about hosting ICS 300/400 (the new requirement) as well.

V/R
LT J.

NY Wing has never had an issue of not having a military base to hold its encampment. Your not liking or not being satisfied with tents (although they do get blown over and flooded EVERY year) is just your personal feeling.

The truth is, we've had encampments at Ft. Drum, Plattsburgh AFB and Camp Smith. We still could use Camp Smith and Ft. Drum once the war is over. The base doesn't have to be Air Force and it doesn't have to be active. Many Reserve/Guard bases are just fine for what we need.

UCC, SLS, and CLC can and are being held at various locations throughout the state and they are so rare that they don't justify real estate purchase expenses.

IS 300/400 has to be done by FEMA or State designated instructors at their location and cannot be instructed by CAP, so no reason for that either.

[arajca]

Any organization can host ICS 300/400. You need to coordinate with your state for instructor requirements.

[NavLT]

NY Wing has never had an issue of not having a military base to hold its encampment. Your not liking or not being satisfied with tents (although they do get blown over and flooded EVERY year) is just your personal feeling.

The truth is, we've had encampments at Ft. Drum, Plattsburgh AFB and Camp Smith. We still could use Camp Smith and Ft. Drum once the war is over. The base doesn't have to be Air Force and it doesn't have to be active. Many Reserve/Guard bases are just fine for what we need.

UCC, SLS, and CLC can and are being held at various locations throughout the state and they are so rare that they don't justify real estate purchase expenses.

IS 300/400 has to be done by FEMA or State designated instructors at their location and cannot be instructed by CAP, so no reason for that either.

I guess I would say that the tents being blown over and flooded every year indicates a problem that a better facility would resolve.  As to the other facilities (Drum and Perry) being availible after the war I would guess that they have been unavailible for greater than 5 years so their reliability also would be a problem a facility would resolve.

I did not want to sound as though getting a wing property to host training meant that training could not be held elswhere. What I was indicating is that if you are looking to purchase anything of value it needs to be functional, and utilized.  If you ever have to hold training in an inappropriate facility or delay training until you can get one it is an indicator (not a absolute pre-requisite) for a faciltiy that meets the needs. 

As to the ICS course it is a multi-agency course which CAP attends.  As a State Instructor in other fields where it gets hosted (Venue) is often determined by those requesting the course.  If CAP wants to put a significant portion of our AOBD, GOBD, ICs through the program it would be good manners to occasionally support the class in our facility. 

V/R
LT J.  Tags - MIKE

[RiverAux]

FYI, the capwatch database has a "Property" table which has the address of sites where CAP meets along with the conditions under which CAP uses the property.  For example, "lease", "verbal agreement' etc. and presumbably "CAP owned".