Real Property

[NavLT]

I have noticed that most not for profits out there seem to be acquiring facilities and property.

I have also noticed that CAP does not.  Why?

When the BRAC commission closes a military facility can CAP get on the list to get facilities?  I would think that if we could get barracks, chow halls, classrooms on former bases they would make great locations for regional encampments, year through training locations for UCC, RCOS, etc.

From a fund raising perspective I know you get lots of support from big corporations for stuff to go in buildings but very little support to get land and buildings.  If we don't pay taxes (not saying there are none), would an initiative to get a location in most Group level locations that we own be a possiblity?

I know I am Pie in the Skying, but after 20 years of a corner in someone elses space (and thank you to them for letting us use it...) I would love to see CAP have a real home.

V/R
Lt J.

[JC004]

Money.

[Eclipse]

The executive director has indicated that "bricks and mortar" facilities will be a priority in the coming years.

With that said, the costs for even a basic facility exceed the abilities of most units, and most corporations are reluctant to provide grants for operations expenses, so even if you get a building, the upkeep can be out of reach.

I have a unit right now that just got squeezed off an airport after about some 40+ years of no-cost, excellent facilities.  Through luck and local contacts, the unit was able to get another building within a few blocks which is actually better than the one they lost, however the rent is over $300 a month and the owner is still pursuing a commercial tenant for rents over $1000.

Prior to that they only paid for utilities and even at the $1500ish a year they wear at net-zero with monthly dues.  This is a very active composite unit with about 50 engaged members from what would be considered an upper-middle-class area.

How many units do you know that could sustain fund-raising activities for operating expenses of even $1-2000 a year for utilities, let alone upwards of $10-15,000 for a commercial building (think real-estate office, or strip mall storefront with a garage at a minimum), which is what most units need, bearing in mind that most wing budgets are only in the $25-30,000 area annually.

For ease of use, $50 x 50 members is "only" $2500 a year - probably twice what most smaller units ever see.

BTW, that same unit is legitimately pursuing building a CAP facility back on the airport, with the support of the airport management.  We're looking at a modest commercial building with a hangar space and a few offices.  Most conversations come to the number $1.5 Million, yes, million, between construction costs and operating expenses.  That seems like a lot until you consider that the average home in that area starts about $300,000.

[Ned]

Every time I scrub this out, I can't make the numbers work on things like utilities and maintenance unless we charge a reasonable rental to our own units and outside customers, AND use a given facility for at least 10-12 full weeks a year in addition to at least 24 separate weekends.

Building and grounds maintenance is not inexpensive.  Everything from making sure the lawn is mowed to have a rolling fund for plumbing repairs, replacing heating and A/c units, fixing the roof leaks, and renewing the blacktop every 10 years adds up pretty quickly.

Then there is the everyday stuff: heat, lights, water & sewer, phones, net connections, etc.

We do have a few facilities owned by CAP, Inc -- Hawk is a pretty good example.  But even relatively modest operations like Hawk are a strain on the budget.


Sure, it would be nice to have our own training facilities, but without an independent income stream subsidizing the facility, it is nearly impossible to make it work.

And if I had spare resources to spend on CAP, I'd probably prioritize them into things other than buildings and grounds that are empty 85% of the time.

Ned Lee

[Eclipse]

One route being discussed is building an area EOC with cooperation from the local municipalities and other agancies.  This would potentially solve the operating expense and "empty days" issue.

But that is still an issue. How do you justify the expense and aggravation of a building that you us a total of may 20 or 30 hours total a month?

[Rotorhead]

In the early 90s, I was in a squadron that had it's own building and property. (I think they'd had been donated years earlier, but the unit still had utiltiies to pay.)

It was great--and my first exposure to CAP, so I didn't know any better.

But the structure was getting old and run-down, and the unit wanted to move, so we tried to raise the money to build even a steel-barn-type structure elsewhere.

That effort went no place; we never could make the large sums needed. As far as I know, they're still in the same old building because it is just very tough to raise that kind of money.

[jayleswo]

Our squadron, in Sacramento CA, has a small dedicated office in the basement of the terminal building, about 200 sqft, and about 500 sqft of storage all provided at no charge by the airport. Then we have free use of the two conference rooms (both with a capacity of about 50 people) in the air conditioned terminal building that has free open Wi-Fi. We could use a little more dedicated space, but the arrangement works pretty well. No utilities, upkeep, repairs or anything and A/C is a real life saver in the summer. We do get quite a bit of public exposure this way as well which helps with recruiting. Only thing I could wish for was a free hanger for our airplane. -- John

[Fireball]

Be thankful that you have a place to meet at all. My Squadron just got evicted! Fortunately we have gained some friends in high places and should have temporary quarters soon, until we can build our own place.

One thing that we ran into, there are some Govt' surplus buildings in the area but they are full of asbestos or are in serious disrepair. The previously mentioned million+ price tag is accurate, we've been getting the same kind of pricetag when we roll out our wish list. Maybe some day, but for now we'll soldier on and complete the mission with what we can beg, borrow, or scrounge.

[FW]

I have noticed that most not for profits out there seem to be acquiring facilities and property.

I have also noticed that CAP does not.  Why?

When the BRAC commission closes a military facility can CAP get on the list to get facilities?  I would think that if we could get barracks, chow halls, classrooms on former bases they would make great locations for regional encampments, year through training locations for UCC, RCOS, etc.

From a fund raising perspective I know you get lots of support from big corporations for stuff to go in buildings but very little support to get land and buildings.  If we don't pay taxes (not saying there are none), would an initiative to get a location in most Group level locations that we own be a possibility?

I know I am Pie in the Skying, but after 20 years of a corner in someone else's space (and thank you to them for letting us use it...) I would love to see CAP have a real home.

V/R
Lt J.

I know of quite a few units having their own facilities to meet, store aircraft, etc all over the  place.  We own Hawk Mt. outright. We own facilities at Oshkosh.  We will have very long term leases for NESA by next year and, I think, we'll have quite a few more places to call home in the next few years.  What's nice about these "regional training facilities" is the available money from NHQ to keep them up (NCSA fees and member donations play a major part too).

Money is the big issue, obviously.  However, I think the best bet would be to try for donated land at a publicly used airport.  WVWG is very good at getting squadron buildings constructed partnering with state govt. and donations from private sources.  Squadrons in PAWG have been successful in acquiring long term leases for land at airports and with donations, constructing/renovating buildings for use (anyone want a FEMA trailer).  

The first step in the process is "friend raising".  Establish a firm positive presence in your community.  Then try getting funds together.   See if you can get community grants.  There are some good research aids for local govt. funds. The process is difficult however, it's very possible.

[DC]

My unit is considering permanent facilities, but it is still in the 'nice to have' catagory. We currently meet in the conference room at the FBO at out airport. Its too small, but, its free, we get free Wi-Fi, access to restrooms, a copier, etc. Most of the squadron equipment is kept in a small supply room in our previous meeting place, and in the T-Hanger that the airport allows us to store our 182 in.

This is our fourth meeting place in four years: We met in the Sheriff's Aviation Unit building, and we out grew it, then a Flight School, which was good, because our area was not used by the school, so we were allowed to make it ours. But, the owner of the school needed the space, so we got kicked out. Then we met at the Fish and Wildlife Aviation Unit, for a couple months, then moved to the FBO without any real explaniation...

[NavLT]

I appreciate the feedback and I am seeing alot of what I hear around the wing.  Many units are greatfull for the charity of others but some units are not so lucky.  I saw at least 2 instances of eviction in the first page or replies.

I work the Airshow community and I have seen a modest vintage warplane group of 40 members get donations of 2 (Free) korean vintage Jets and then funding to revitalize them from altruistic sources.  I spoke to a nice woman from the Canadian Harvards who fund raised over 250,000 last year for that group with only one person pounding the pavement for the effort. 

I don't expect miracles but if it is not a stated and pursued strategy it will never come to fruition.  I am glad the Executive Director is making an adgenda Item.

I like the Joint operations center idea with local FAA, Fema, State/county Emergency Ops Idea.  It seems that if the FBO world has an organization ( ???I smile at my own ignorance at not knowing if there is one) we should be working with them for facility use with some legal/tax support from national to make it agreeable to them.

I also see the trend of lack of use, and that is an inititative/calandaring issue for the Wing/Region to push for use of a facility.  I know because we are doing the same thing with A/C assignment in our wing.  If we give a group an A/C and they put hours on the bird they might get a 2nd A/C.  If the A/C sits they loose it.  What is the difference between the two groups (not pilots on record with form 5s they are almost the same) it is the drive and focus of the leadership.

V/R
LT. J.

[Rotorhead]

I I spoke to a nice woman from the Canadian Harvards who fund raised over 250,000 last year for that group with only one person pounding the pavement for the effort. 

Great, can you get that guy?

Fundraising is a skill, not just a matter of effort.

[arajca]

One problem with CAP facilities is that National wants them to be exclusively for CAP. So a unit uses the facility 40 hours - meetings plus the usual support work - a month. The rest of the time is sits empty. A serious waste of resources.

[heliodoc]

^
Therein lies the "problem.  CAP wants it "exclusively for CAP. "  Is that in their insurance regs??

What about all these Guard and AF facilities and some emergency Mgmt offices allowing space to CAP??

Sort of a one way street, so to speak for CAP.  In this day of interagency cooperation... CAP does it again saying real estate property is exclusive.  Define it in WRITING and then we can can ALL believe the CAP bylaws regarding it otherwise we should call a BS flag on this.  It sure would be nice if CAP would regard the outer world as well as their own.

Again about that interagency cooperation thing........ CAP needs to get with it in the "REAL" world even Army National Guard is building facilities with the "community" in mind.  Now there are some caveats to that also BUT if CAP is to survive.... well I don't need to to say anymore

EXCLUSIVITY in CAP??  What would happen if other agencies started evicting US for less.... we all know it can be done

[Eclipse]

I have no issue with exclusive use with 100% CAP money building it.  Military bases are funded by the DOD, and Airmen are not selling candy bars for their hangers.

Anything CAP builds would be 100% on the corporate side of the house. 

By design, an empty building on a military facility is a waste of taxpayer's money, a CAP building isn't even a taxpayer issue, they didn't pay for it, and don't pay for the upkeep or operational costs, either.

A shared-use facility that gets HLS or other money is a different story and it would depend on a lot of factors.  We've been told, however, that most HLS grants will not fund buildings, only the stuff in them.

[heliodoc]

^

I have been thru the drill with the HLS and commo site stuff. Right HLS will NOT fund permanent structures.

Comm site with repeaters can not be perm site or perm fixtures and I have to agree.. those are infrastructure issues.  Fine with CAP (if they could EVER handle it) having facilities of their own if they funded 100% .... but again I argue with all the rented or free space CAP is getting all over the nation... then the organization ought to consider itself lucky it has space from others.

I will continue the argument... interagency cooperation.  Ever wonder why CAP is not high on some peoples priority lists for missions, facilities, etc..??  Could be their attititude... what is mine is mine and what is yours is mine. 

I do not agree on CAP not being a taxpayer issue  all those NAVIII C182's did not appear on scene for free either

[Eclipse]

I do not agree on CAP not being a taxpayer issue  all those NAVIII C182's did not appear on scene for free either

Apples and oranges.  The aircraft are used as directed by CAP-USAF and our various regs, shared with other agencies (through missions), and our people are not selling candy to pay for them.

Its not like you're going to see a local Sheriff or the USAF letting our people sign out their aircraft, either.  There's always hard-line limit on agency cooperation.

We're talking about buildings with no DOD funding, which is the only way can occur, especially in today's budget climate.

A big chunk of this problem is outside our control - CAP used to rely on facilities that don't exist anymore because of related funding issues with other agencies and services - park district buildings, FBO's, and of course all the bases that were BRAC'ed and are now condos and strip malls.
There are literally 3-4 unit charters in my group that dissolved simply because the military packed up and left, leaving no place for CAP to sit.

[NavLT]

Snip
A big chunk of this problem is outside our control - CAP used to rely on facilities that don't exist anymore because of related funding issues with other agencies and services - park district buildings, FBO's, and of course all the bases that were BRAC'ed and are now condos and strip malls.
There are literally 3-4 unit charters in my group that dissolved simply because the military packed up and left, leaving no place for CAP to sit.

The big issue is we have been watching the facilities vanish, watching the BRAC do multiple rounds and what have we done about it?  Have we started a national initiative to develop new locations to host those units?  At the upper level they shake there heads and talk about recruitment and Numbers but if there is no place for the unit to meet I wonder how that affects the membership #s? 

Most units that loose facilities have the poor unit commander (possibly new guy #9 with 6mo in the program) hunting for new digs, not being setup for success.  Maybe national needs to consider putting together a directorate to work this issue spending a week in every wing (a couple times a year) working on property issues and assisting with State Govt budget, working the fundraising philanthropists, and really working the MOU/Partnerships to get joint facilities where possible.

I only wish in my watching of the national boards, that an issue as important as this got as much discussion and strategic emphasis as the wether Major Generals got to keep their fictitious stars.  I got to sit in on a NEC meeting back in my haze grey days and Gen Anderson really pushed for how changes needed to get down to the unit level to be any good.  I miss that.

V/R
LT J.

[Eclipse]

Its hard to disagree with the above, but I don't know that this is a National issue fom a tactical standpoint - if Wing or Group isn't getting it done, how much can someone from outside do?

One place where we could use some top-down CAP-USAF help is with state Guard units.
At least in my state, the regular-military services are pretty generous with their facilities, but the local guard armories are pretty stingy, owing to their own budget and scheduling constraints.

I find it unbelievable that we have guard units charging CAP for facilities, and then the same month requesting our assistance at no cost - that's assuming we can make the connections with the proper people to even get space.  Since most of them are part-time occupied as well, CAP is treated like the YMCA and generally can't get much more than few hours a night with no permanent setups.

I've had one unit that had to move from a guard base because of expense and coordination with a new commander, and we have others in the state going bankrupt trying to pay the fees.

[NavLT]

Its hard to disagree with the above, but I don't know that this is a National issue fom a tactical standpoint - if Wing or Group isn't getting it done, how much can someone from outside do?

I don't think that national should find digs for a local unit but they should train the wing staff and offer training in the wing on doing the finding.  Also I thing the big push to get funding at the state, federal, local buisness, national buisnesss and foundation in the hands of the wings to do the development would be key.

V/R
LT J.

Tags, and please use quote instead of color tags - MIKE