A CAP/BSA Venturing Squadron with Deuce-and-a-Half. Help, please.

[Eagle400]

I know of a CAP/BSA Venturing Squadron that has a Deuce-and-a-Half, ten years after losing the same exact type of vehicle.  The loss of the vehicle was a result of the group commander becoming aware of its use by the squadron, and subsequently administering appropriate disciplinary action to those responsible for keeping it at the squadron and using it to transport cadets and seniors.

I was going to begin this thread with even more detailed background information than I have already given, but I think the photos pretty much speak for themselves:





The welcome sign greets you.



The squadron exit is immediately on the right.



The comm. shack is straight ahead.



The squadron entrance becomes visible.



The supply shed directly across from the entrance is hiding something.



And upon reaching the other side of the supply shed, a 2 ½ ton truck becomes visible.


At a different angle, you can see the squadron entrance sign in plain view from the Deuce-and-a-Half.



(Zoomed In)



(Zoomed Out)



I have a problem with this, because CAPR 52-16, paragraph 6-2, item (e) states the following:

A jointly chartered CAP Venturing Crew or Varsity Team will conduct all operations and activities under CAP regulations or clearly and unmistakably conduct itself under the auspices of the scouting program only. If the unit wishes to conduct any activity outside of, or restricted by CAP regulations, the unit commander will obtain Scout liability insurance protection for CAP and the members of the unit from the Scouting Council or Scouting National Headquarters before proceeding.

As far as I know, this Venturing Crew at the squadron has chosen to conduct all operations and activities under CAP regulations.  This group is in the form of a military youth cadet program, similar to the CAP Cadet Program.

Here are the links to the websites of both the squadron involved and the Boy Scout Venturing group jointly chartered with it:

Camarillo Composite Squadron 61

Ventura Military Explorers (website has old address)


What options are available in preventing this Boy Scout group from continuing to use this unauthorized vehicle for CAP activities and defy CAP regulations?

[lordmonar]

And you need help why?

[jpnelson82]

sniff sniff, I'm envious that looks like a CAP equivalent of a military base  like Ft. Lewis

[FW]

CCSE,  This truck does not belong to CAP.  It either belongs to some other organization or individual.  That it is parked at a CAP Sq. is not an issue.  It is not an issue if CAP cadets are transported in it.  AS LONG AS THE VEHICLE IS PROPERLY INSURED, properly inspected and has seat belts for the passengers, it shouldn't be anyone's concern.  
If the above weren't true.  I think the gp/cc or wing/cc would have taken issue with this along time ago.

BTW; nice pictures.

[♠SARKID♠]

CAPR 77-1 states that CAP can't own a deuce and a half.  If the vehicle is owned by a separate person or organization (i.e the BSA) then its CAP legal.

[jimmydeanno]

Wow, that's some fancy investigation.  If you were to take pictures like that at my squadron you'd see a CAP sign, a sign on the door and about 10 deuce and a halfs parked in our parking lot.  Doesn't mean we have anything to do with them.

"News of the force reports that CAP squadron shares facilities with other organization that has a deuce and a half.  Call for segregated parking lots leads to discrimination lawsuit."

[davidsinn]

BSA units can't own vehicles. They can't even own trailers.

[MIKE]

Don't feed the troll.

[Eagle400]

If the above weren't true.  I think the gp/cc or wing/cc would have taken issue with this along time ago.

Oh, but the GP/CC did. 

Not only that, but he also had the vehicle confiscated as well.

CCSE,  This truck does not belong to CAP.  It either belongs to some other organization or individual.  That it is parked at a CAP Sq. is not an issue.  It is not an issue if CAP cadets are transported in it.  AS LONG AS THE VEHICLE IS PROPERLY INSURED, properly inspected and has seat belts for the passengers, it shouldn't be anyone's concern.

I refer you to CAPR 52-16, paragraph 6-2, item (c):

A jointly chartered CAP Venturing Crew or Varsity Team will conduct all operations and activities under CAP regulations or clearly and unmistakably conduct itself under the auspices of the scouting program only. If the unit wishes to conduct any activity outside of, or restricted by CAP regulations, the unit commander will obtain Scout liability insurance protection for CAP and the members of the unit from the Scouting Council or Scouting National Headquarters before proceeding.

As far as I know, this BSA Venturing Crew conducts all of its operations and activities under CAP regulations.

I also refer you to CAPR 77-1, paragraph 1, item (d):

Types of vehicles not permitted to be owned by CAP will be determined by NHQ. Vehicles not permitted to be owned by CAP include, but are not limited to:

1) Buses
2) Water trailers
3) Humvees
4) Deuce and half (2 1/2 ton vehicles or larger)
5) Boats
6) ATVs 

So one must ask, if the Deuce and a Half is not the property of CAP, then why is it parked at the squadron and not at the home of the person it is registered to?

Also, if I am wrong about this Boy Scout group and it turns out that they do unmistakably conduct their group under the auspices of the scouting program only, then they are still in violation of regulations (specifically, the BSA regulations regarding BSA units and vehicles).

[Pylon]

So one must ask, if the Deuce and a Half is not the property of CAP, then why is it parked at the squadron and not at the home of the person it is registered to?

Frankly, if it's registered & insured, and CAP doesn't own it - what's the issue?

If I own a vehicle and register it, pay for the insurance and let CAP use it and leave it parked next to our CAP buildings, that's just fine.  Nothing illegal going on there.

[FW]

So one must ask, if the Deuce and a Half is not the property of CAP, then why is it parked at the squadron and not at the home of the person it is registered to?

Also, if I am wrong about this Boy Scout group and it turns out that they do unmistakably conduct their group under the auspices of the scouting program only, then they are still in violation of regulations (specifically, the BSA regulations regarding BSA units and vehicles).

1.  Not our problem
2.  Definitely not our problem.  We don't control who owns someone else's stuff.  We only control the stuff we own.  Life is complicated enough.

[cnitas]

Do I win a prize if I can take a photo of a C-130 with a CAP sign in the background?
Perhaps a Ferrari or Harley with a CAP sign in the background.  That would be cool.

This sounds like a neat contest to me.

[davedove]

Do I win a prize if I can take a photo of a C-130 with a CAP sign in the background?
Perhaps a Ferrari or Harley with a CAP sign in the background.  That would be cool.

This sounds like a neat contest to me.

You've got to make it interesting.  The photo with the most different prohibited vehicles wins the contest:

1) Buses
2) Water trailers
3) Humvees
4) Deuce and half (2 1/2 ton vehicles or larger)
5) Boats
6) ATVs

So, a photo that contained all six of these would be the winner.

Pictures also showing mounted cadets with their search dogs and mountain climbing gear would get bonus points.

[Pylon]

You've got to make it interesting.  The photo with the most different prohibited vehicles wins the contest:

1) Buses
2) Water trailers
3) Humvees
4) Deuce and half (2 1/2 ton vehicles or larger)
5) Boats
6) ATVs

So, a photo that contained all six of these would be the winner.

But you can win the Grand Prize only if cadets in BDUs with shoulder cords, wearing boonies and orange ascots, and holding paintball guns while wearing temporary grade are also in the picture.   

[mikeylikey]

^ Haha.....

MIKE......now would be the time to throw your lock in the ring.   

[Eagle400]

Frankly, if it's registered & insured, and CAP doesn't own it - what's the issue?

Whether it is owned by CAP or not, using it for activities within a CAP/BSA squadron whereby the BSA unit conducts all of its operations and activities under CAP regulations is not allowed.

BSA regulations also prohibit ownership of any type of vehicle by any Venturing post.  Even trailers are not allowed.

If I own a vehicle and register it, pay for the insurance and let CAP use it and leave it parked next to our CAP buildings, that's just fine.

This is true, so long as the vehicle is authorized for use by CAP as outlined in CAPR 77-1.  According to this regulation, Deuce and a Halfs don't qualify.

Nothing illegal going on there.

I never said or implied there was, sir.  The focus of this thread is on the regulations regarding CAP vehicles/vehicles being used to transport CAP members, and not legality.

I can think of at least 100 things that are prohibited by CAP regulations, but not illegal.

[Pylon]

The reg says CAP can't own them.  It doesn't prohibit CAP from using buses, deuce and a halfs, etc.  Encampments and other activities regularly make use of buses and military vehicles for transport.  So long as somebody else owns it, it's fair game.   If CAP doesn't own them (which I'd be pretty sure they don't - it would be red flags all over) then no regulation is being violated - whether you're CAP, or joint BSA operating under CAP rules.

[DADx11]

CAPR 77-1 is referring specifically to vehicles not to be owned by cap.

As others here have said, so long as its properly registered, licensed and insured by the individual who owns it - its not an issue.

Maybe you need a new hobby    ...

[♠SARKID♠]

The reg says CAP can't own them.  It doesn't prohibit CAP from using buses, deuce and a halfs, etc.  Encampments and other activities regularly make use of buses and military vehicles for transport.  So long as somebody else owns it, it's fair game.   If CAP doesn't own them (which I'd be pretty sure they don't - it would be red flags all over) then no regulation is being violated - whether you're CAP, or joint BSA operating under CAP rules.

Concur.

CCSE, let me give you a case in point.  A squadron in my wing has a hovercraft at their exclusive disposal.  Its a boat-like vehicle so CAP isn't allowed to own it.  However, all they had to do was donate it to a non-profit organization that works with/sponsors their squadron.  That way, CAP doesn't own it and the squadron can still use it.  No toes are stepped on.  CAP doesn't mind us using the vehicles on that list, however they do mind paying the jacked insurance premiums on them.  If its on someone else's bill, CAP could care less.  At that point its a POV, not a COV.  If the deuce1/2 is owned by a separate party, that makes it kosher for the BSA regs too.


I have a very easy solution to this whole predicament - why don't you ask the squadron what the situation is?

[SSgt Rudin]

I only have one issue with this topic - that it's here. CAP has a fancy new program called IG, and that is where your issue should have been brought not to a publicly accessible web site. If they find there is an issue they will handle it, if there is no issue and they do nothing then you can come here and gripe about it.