Dressing Down

[Stonewall]

However, CAP members do deploy.  Granted, it's not overseas, but CAP has deployed to different parts of the US.

And the sacrifice part is wrong as well.  We all sacrifice something to be a part of CAP.  For most of us it's our time and not a small amount of our money.  But if I'm not mistaken, CAP members have been lost in the line of duty.

See, to me, I wouldn't say "we deploy" per se.  I'd say, if we're available, we can get into our POV or corporately owned van and drive to the location on our own and see what we can get into.  It's not like you don't have a choice in the matter.  It may be luck of the draw if  you get that call at 0200 and they say "grab your team and start driving down to South Carolina, a major hurricane just hit and we need your team".  Granted, there are some units out there that may have enough people that CAN go to call a "team".  But to say "we deploy" just doesn't jive with me.

In the military, you deploy and don't have an option.  Really, all you do is just show up to your unit and start the assembly line process.  Next thing you know, you're listening to your iPod on a military or commercial plane en route to Whereeverstan and IT IS NOT AN OPTION.

As a CAP member, even an IC, you have zero obligation to go.  I'll tell you this, my employer would laugh over the phone if I told him I was headed up to South Carolina with CAP to help with a hurricane.

Just saying, I wouldn't argue that we're all that and a biggie sized side of fries.  A useful tool in the toolbox, no doubt.  Performing missions for America, absolutely.  But I wouldn't use the word "deploy" within military circles because it may lead someone to believe we're being ordered versus asked to go somewhere to help.  YMMV.

[DNall]

^ regarding that. 95%+ of all adult members would give up their choice in the matter if given solid job protection in line with guard/reserve. More so if you pay per diem to help offset (at least in part) lost wages.

The issue with deploying is a year away from home/family/good beer/baseball games/hot girls is just real sucky. CAP doesn't do that kind of thing. But then neither does that NPS fire/EMS dude.

[Stonewall]

^ regarding that. 95%+ of all adult members would give up their choice in the matter if given solid job protection in line with guard/reserve. More so if you pay per diem to help offset (at least in part) lost wages.

Well yeah, that would be like winning the lottery.  Getting to do what you love, plus not having to worry about your job AND get per diem.  But I work for the federal government and have found that they are the worst when it comes to dealing with employees who are in the National Guard/Reserves like myself.  I couldn't imagine trying to tell them that I must go somewhere for CAP without competent orders directing me to do so. 

I got called up last year for 6 weeks.  By "called up", I was told to be there in 2 days via VERBAL ORDER.  My employer harrassed me each and every day saying I was "absent" and using annual leave then sick leave until I produced written orders.  Took me two weeks and a huge hassle.

[Duke Dillio]

^This may be rumor, but I doubt it since I got an email from the CO WG commander.  Colorado just passed a law which provides for job security for CAP members on actual missions.  Can't quote it, I just know it's there.  I think there are a few other states that have the same deal.  Iowa seems to jump at me right off the top of my head.  Start callin your congress people, give them lots of money, and make it happen.  Oh yeah...

[LittleIronPilot]

I know that MILITARY officers are commissioned, but ask them if THEIR officers are.

I was a Police OFFICER, I know Fire OFFICERS, hell there are OFFICERS of the Board!

OFFICER is not unique to the military and since we are NOT the Real Military (RM), we can certainly call ourselves OFFICERS without a commission just like they can in the Fire Dept. Or ask them if their fire house Captain is not a real officer since he is not commissioned. *



*If getting paid lets you be an "officer" I would certainly say that giving of your time and energy as a volunteer earns that same right.

[Stonewall]

^^^And remember, not all MILITARY OFFICERS hold a degree.  There are state OCS programs that will commission you with 60 credits.  There are Limited Duty Officers in the Navy who are prior senior enlisted but have no requirement for college.  And of course, don't forget Warrant Officers.  One of my best friends and fellow former cadet is a CW-3 and just finished an associates degree and he's been a Warrant for 10 years now.

Just saying:  Military Officers does not always = 4 year degree.

[DNall]

^ regarding that. 95%+ of all adult members would give up their choice in the matter if given solid job protection in line with guard/reserve. More so if you pay per diem to help offset (at least in part) lost wages.

Well yeah, that would be like winning the lottery.  Getting to do what you love, plus not having to worry about your job AND get per diem. 

That's my point. What guard/reserve take just about for granted we as CAP members don't get. Therein is the sacrifice on one side & limitation on the other.  I VERY much doubt most guard/reserve troops would be willing to tolerate the sacrifices required of a CAP member, even if they were getting paid for it.
I understand employer hassles. We deal with those a lot. We're proactive about it & work hard to take care of our soldiers, but there's still problems. When that happens, employers get threatened by the boss w/ legal action. That tends to straighten them up.

There's some fed employees in the unit, but I don't have a lot of experience with them. I got one SSG that works for me, is a border patrol agent, and absolutely no problems with his job, not even when we put him on a short notice slot for BNCOC.

^^^And remember, not all MILITARY OFFICERS hold a degree.  There are state OCS programs that will commission you with 60 credits.  There are Limited Duty Officers in the Navy who are prior senior enlisted but have no requirement for college.  And of course, don't forget Warrant Officers.  One of my best friends and fellow former cadet is a CW-3 and just finished an associates degree and he's been a Warrant for 10 years now.

Just saying:  Military Officers does not always = 4 year degree.

State OCS requires 60hrs to start & 90hrs to commission. Aviation WO for AD Army requires no college, but very highly recommended to be competitive. WOCS for guard requires 90hrs, I believe.

Anyway, college is not what makes an officer. It's a prereq, like scoring a certain level on the ASVAB (which is also a req in the Army). It just demonstrates your tenacity & ability to learn higher thought stuff, and generally that you're not an idiot.

What makes you an officer is getting the crap kicked out of you in a commissioning program that absolutely sucks nuts. And that's not even true either. That's paying your dues for the right to wear officer rank. Actually being an officer is something you learn as a dumb LT getting mentored by your NCOs as you slowly extract head from fourth point.

I think a lot of the complaint outsiders have about our officers is 1) they hadn't paid their proverbial dues to earn it; and, 2) they aren't competent in the job at the most basic levels expected of the most junior people.

I'll give you an example... I was teaching a GT school this wknd. One of the GTL-Ts was trying to execute a mission using the plan & brief from the task guide, which some idiot decided didn't need to come with the 8 troop leading procedures so you know how to apply it to reality. He's going by the book & a decently highspeed smart guy, but just lost. I spend 15 mins showing him how TLPs make cause that task to make sense, which in turn solves the total lack of control & organization going on in his op. Get to watch the light go on when he figures it out. Now he's squared away.

That's such a simple thing that any junior NCO would understand, and any officer candidate would have pounded mercilessly into them until it's automatic. We miss stuff like that in CAP, which leads to bad planning & overall low competence. It's not that we're not capable, it's just we're not building basic foundations. You put that in the field with viewers that have an expectation of competence in line with a RM standard, yeah that's going to not make for good press.

[SAR-EMT1]

Well, I thought I ought to report back.

At the start of my last shift I gave a very brief report of the encounter to the white shirts. The simple solution was to get some scheduling tweeked.
I was also assured that no blue shirt, no matter how experienced, has any say in hires/fires.

To answer some questions:
the guys involved have never been directly associated with CAP.

The parade they saw had a jr high aged color guard with poor uniforms, poor drill and general shoddiness when compared to the VFW, Legion and Guard Color Guards they were with.

Operationally they have both done co-op work with ILWG during SAREX's - through FD participation.  Generally werent impressed.

- MABAS also tasks
Water Rescue/ Dive Team
and

URBAN SAR

Also they both reported participating with CAP in a real mission capacity several years ago when a Tornado took out parts of the state capitol.
Evidently some CAP types were assigned to help a FD damage assessment team.
While the FD recorded things such as structural integrity lost, or the probable cost of repairs, the CAP types were merely writing " tree hit house"

-- I was not in Springfield, so i have no knowledge of the validity here.

The checkride was in reference to a damage assessment demo or something like that, conducted for the state EMA, which in IL relies on MABAS as the premier
resource.
Finally as far as there personalities. Up to this point i never had a problem and thought they were great guys. They seem to get along great with everyone else...

Anyway, just wanted to post an update.

[SAR-EMT1]

I also want to thank all of you for the kind words and support.

If it happens again, I'll drop an address on here.

[DNall]

the guys involved have never been directly associated with CAP.

The parade they saw had a jr high aged color guard with poor uniforms, poor drill and general shoddiness when compared to the VFW, Legion and Guard Color Guards they were with.

That's unfortunate. Obviously we all need to be cognizant that we're putting our people in the public eye with public expectations based on RM, not the boy scouts. Those results will reflect on us, and do cross over to operational trust, unfortunately. You're community parade is not necessarily a time for you to let your cadets color guard out in public just so they can. They need to be squared away first. The same goes for all of us with regard to appearance & behavior. We all know this, but regular reinforcement is always a good idea.

Operationally they have both done co-op work with ILWG during SAREX's - through FD participation.  Generally werent impressed.

- MABAS also tasks
Water Rescue/ Dive Team
and

URBAN SAR

Also they both reported participating with CAP in a real mission capacity several years ago when a Tornado took out parts of the state capitol.
Evidently some CAP types were assigned to help a FD damage assessment team.
While the FD recorded things such as structural integrity lost, or the probable cost of repairs, the CAP types were merely writing " tree hit house"

-- I was not in Springfield, so i have no knowledge of the validity here.

The checkride was in reference to a damage assessment demo or something like that, conducted for the state EMA, which in IL relies on MABAS as the premier
resource.

I'm sorry that their experience with CAP was less than stellar. Again this is something we need to work on. As ELTs go away, damage assessment is something we need to get a lot better at. FDs are experienced in evaluating single structures, we're not. What we've traditionally done in this area is big picture survey to determine what areas are most impacted, short of what critical services, and in need of most & what types of relief resources. We're not insurance damage adjusters. We shouldn't be evaluating a single structure. At the same time, I would hope we can be more competent than, "tree hit house." You can't do a legitimate wide area survey if you don't have some idea of the pieces that make up that big picture. That sounds like an important bit from an AAR that we need to train further on.

[JoeTomasone]

As ELTs go away

Come again?

We're still going to have to track down a large number of 406Mhz ELTs after next February.

[SAR-EMT1]

As ELTs go away

Come again?

We're still going to have to track down a large number of 406Mhz ELTs after next February.

How?
Its my understanding that they will be GPS equipped and that upon a signal the AFRCC will call the nearest PD with a location precise to a few feet. The USAF will completely bypass CAP

Tag spacing - MIKE

[JoeTomasone]

1.  406 Mhz beacons are not mandatory; you can still keep/use your 121.5, just that SARSAT won't pick it up.  If it's heard some other way (airfield, overhead aircraft, etc), it will still wind up in AFRCC's hands.

2.  406 beacons CAN be registered but there is no REQUIREMENT to do so.  (Note: Cospas-Sarsat says "may be registered", NOAA says it's required - perhaps for EPIRBS only?)   Therefore the "phone call deactivation" is not a certainty.    Plus, aircraft registered to anyone (business/clubs especially) that don't provide after-hours contact info (again, not a requirement) will be unreachable during night missions. 
http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/ibrd/faq_E.htm#what_happens_not_registered

3.  406 beacons can optionally have GPS capability, but it is not required and is an extra expense.   If the unit has no GPS, then it's located via doppler shift much like the 121.5's are today.  The accuracy is better (2-3nm miles versus 12nm for 121.5), but even GPS is limited to 300' - and that's a decent amount of space in which to find aircraft on a field or vessels at a marina.  If it's not registered, there's still a search to be made.

4.  Testing has shown that the GPS units are not reliable on many models of PLB and EPIRB due to GPS obstruction, failure to acquire a position in time to be beaconed to the SARSAT, and other reasons. 
http://www.equipped.org/406_beacon_test_summary.htm

5.  The GPS signal is close to the 13th harmonic of the 121.5 signal that the beacon will be transmitting, which may impact GPS acquisition.
http://www.equipped.org/406_beacon_test_background.htm


6.  AOPA is against any mandatory switchover.
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/elt.html

7.  According to NOAA, "Registration mandatory since 1994. 90% beacons registered.  About 70% of false alerts are resolved by a phone or radio call to registration POCs prior to launching SAR assets."  This means that 10% are not registered, and 30% of the registered beacons are not resolved via phone call. 



And something else to keep in mind with the GPS coordinates:

"This location information is updated once every 20 minutes for beacons with internal GPS. If the location is not updated, after four hours the location data is removed from the transmission. Those beacons that rely upon an external GPS do not update GPS information unless the beacon is switched off and then on again, in accordance with COSPAS-SARSAT standards."
http://www.equipped.org/406_beacon_test_background.htm


   - Joe


</hijack>

[DNall]

No one is saying there will be zero ELTs to track by some date in the near future. However, any reasonable person understands 406 is already being widely used & will massively decrease the number of false activations that need to be tracked down. That's a good thing.

The problem for CAP is that w/o those false alarms we don't have enough mission to justify our resources, keep our people trained, and keep folks motivated to stay qual'd. We have to evolve to some other things within the AF domestic mission set - meaning mostly the other things 1AF does, which is disaster & HLS. That requires stepping up on NIMS, and that's going to be painful for a lot of members to meet real world responder standards.

So CAP does face some issues & we do need to work hard to change from the org that could present the poor image these guys saw, to an org that can respond to real emergencies in the future with qual'd people & the right tools for the job.

[JoeTomasone]

No one is saying there will be zero ELTs to track by some date in the near future. However, any reasonable person understands 406 is already being widely used & will massively decrease the number of false activations that need to be tracked down. That's a good thing.

Quite frankly, I'd say that it wouldn't decrease the number of false alarms at all - the 406's will activate the same way as they do now - hard landings, maintenance, inversion, etc.    The difference will be that the registered beacons have a good likelyhood of being silenced with a phone call.   But the unregistered units will have to be located, as well as the registered ones for whom no contact can be established.   So I see our UDF mission decreasing somewhat, but not "massively".   

[Al Sayre]

The big difference will be a LOT more flying required on the 121.5 ELT's.  Instead of a 15 mile radius from a lat-long from the satellite, it'll be "reported by FUBAR Air 123 at 27,000 feet over East Nowhere VOR".  You now have a search radius of around 100 miles...

[JoeTomasone]

...And that possibility speaks well towards having members able to monitor all three frequencies with a scanner and decent outdoor antenna so that if we have one reported, maybe someone on the ground will hear it.

Of course, we can have CAP aircraft flying at 100' to localize it - but that might upset some folks. 

[SARMedTech]

Something for everyone to understand

MABAS
Mutual Aid Box Alarm System

is an incredibly well organized mutual aid network which started in Illinois.  MABAS coordinates, and credentials emergency responders in a number of disciplines.  Including:

Fire Fighting
Tech Rescue
Haz-Mat

I can only imagine that CAP's independent attitude, and lack of NIMS compliancy has rubbed a few MABAS types the wrong way. 

I can only imagine how MABAS resources feel when CAP cant even meet the minimum requirements for mutual aid, and you often times hold yourself out as the "Federal" SAR asset. 

It also doesn't help that CAP would never pay the MABAS membership fees.

Is there any complaint that the AF isn't a member? Why would CAP associate in a local mutual aid system. We're not here for them & will not deploy on their authority. We're here to help the AF, to a lesser extent the rest of DoD (Army disaster response), to a lesser extent the rest of the fed govt (including FEMA & DHS), and to much lesser extent state govts when they are completely overpowered by the situation. We come in only after systems like mutual aid don't have the right resources or have failed to meet the need.

I'd also point out that FEMA/DHS liked this system that MABAS is running so well that they are in the process of making them obsolete. The whole NIMS process is meant to create such a federally controlled & funded system, including credentialing & mutual aid. Those standards are still under development. The compliance standards at this point are more about procedure & basic understanding. There is no set of reqs in force at this point that differentiate between capable rescuers & morons.

MABAS is by no stretch of the imagination becoming obsolete. I think this demonstrates that you don't know much about the organization or you would know that while it started in IL it now takes in member departments in several Midwestern States.  Please cite your source for the obsolescence of MABAS.

[MIKE]

Holy topic drift Batman!

[JoeTomasone]

Yeah, I was just looking for a good UDF post to jump this to.