Questions about squadron property/assets Squadron level LG

[mynetdude]

I'm not trying to defy my training that I was told this and that and while I am sure that he isn't wrong either and well I suppose I should just read the whole manual before asking but I can't seem to find even the most specific information assuming I am looking in the right spot.

What I'm trying to find out about is: property donations, who are these handled by? the LG officer or the Finance officer (assuming these are properties under $5,000 as property at $5k or more have to be approved by NHQ anyway).

I'll quote some specific areas in some regulations I have been reading off and on. I have been told that NON-DoD property do not have to be reported on the S-3 or on CATS according to the regulations that is not true.


CAPR 67-1 2.8

Purchasing Property. Under certain conditions, CAP units may purchase needed items with Federally-appropriated funds, corporate funds, or other funds such as those provided by a state or local government. See CAPR 70-1, CAP Acquisition Regulation, for policies concerning expenditure of funds. The wing legal officer should be consulted prior to the use of state or local government provided funds. Log all non-expendable property purchases into CATS and indicate in the CATS "source" field whether the item is DoD-funded, state-funded, or corporate-funded. NHQ /LGS will input property purchased by NHQ into CATS. Region/wing LG staff are responsible for logging their property purchases on the CAPF 38 and entering them into CATS.

As clearly as this says, property purchased using Federal, Corporate, State funds must be entered into CATS regardless of value? I'm not sure if it seems that Region/Wing is responsible for this? I don't know if purchases of such types are allowed by the squadrons?

I still have further question...

CAPR 67-1 2.9

Property Donations. Individuals, business enterprises, foundations, state, and local governments may donate property to CAP. Acceptance of donations is authorized and encouraged, but units are to strictly follow CAPR 173-4, Fund Raising/Donations, procedures when receiving or selling donated property. Earmark all non-expendable property contributions as "Donation" in the "source" field of CATS and maintain a copy of the donation receipt in Part I of the Property File.

I'm confused by this one, because we have a lot of property that were privately donated and are not on CATS though they DO have a document number which has been recorded in a numerical sequencing order as per instructions.  I haven't gotten this far into where to find out how to properly obtain correct document record number for each item other than the instructions given to me from the retired LG officer who just recently retired from my squadron. (Not that I can't ask him, I'm not interested in barraging him with more questions that we have gone over countless of times but why bother him he is retired).

So... what I'm saying is... this regulation is in contradiction to the instructions I have received, non DOD property need not be on CATS infact our region CAP-USAF Liason also the director of logistics says that it doesn't need to be on CATS per our inspection that we got selected for. I'm sorry if I'm asking silly questions or being blatant but so far I can't seem to find the specifics regarding not needing to enter into CATS. (and really I'd rather NOT enter into CATS as its less paperwork and easier to move things around as needed).

However take note of this:

CAPR 2-11

State-funded/owned Property. Title to state-owned property remains vested in the state government. At the commander's discretion, state-funded/owned property may be tracked in CATS and reported on the annual S-3 inventory. Record the source as "state-funded". When state-funded/owned property is no longer needed, contact the lending agency in writing for coordination of disposition instructions.

This is pretty self explanatory I understand this... no need to ask questions about this except that it seems to counter the above 2.8 and 2.9 that state appropriated property must be in CATS, 2-11 says at the commander's discretion so is it safe abide by 2-11 if it were state appropriated property?

There is a splurge in the 67-1 that specifically states that CAP units/WGs are not to have property that have no real ability to fulfill its mission or to have excess property.  We don't have excess property (not anymore we don't) but we have a few things here and there (in small numbers) that we A) no longer need to use B) we can't use because it requires something else.

Now, I would assume it would be WISE to ask other units in the state if they want XX item and we would be happy to transfer it to them or I suppose I'd transfer it back to Wing and let them distribute it to units that may have better use for it but the question besomes is it worth the cost to drive xx hours to get 1 or 2 items or what not.

We also had an item that was aquired through DRMO channels that recently disappeared off CATS as to why, we are not sure there is no information or documentation saying why but it is a mighty old projector with the CPIN still on it and I have no idea what to do with it as far as disposition/disposal of it goes since we already have a brand new projector which I have yet to look up in our internal database and I'm not sure how it was aquired (assuming squadron funds).


Questions about property donated to the squadron, again the regulation does not make much sense in terms of how the squadron gets donated property although it is clear who is responsible and the proceedures quoted below:

SECTION B - DONATIONS – PROCEDURES
7. Donations of Property. Selected solicitation campaigns may be effective to obtain donations of property such as computers, aircraft, vehicles, radios, etc. For aircraft and vehicles, prior approval is required from NHQ CAP/EX. A Donation Receipt must be executed for all donations of $250 or more where no goods or services are provided to the donor and all donations of $75 or more where goods or services are provided to the donor. See Attachment 1, which may be reproduced locally. It is important that it is completely filled out and a copy retained in the corporate officer's file accepting the donation. In addition, the donor may request an IRS Form 8283. You many obtain an IRS Form 8283, Noncash Charitable Contributions, and instructions at http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/. CAP officers who may accept property donations are:
a. Wing commanders − for donations of property valued by donor up to $5,000.
b. Region commanders − for donation of property valued by donor between $5,000 and $10,000.
c. Executive Director − for donations of property valued by donor in excess of $10,000.

Basically Section B #7 is saying that a unit/squadron cannot accept donations? So, what am I supposed to do with property someone wants to donate to the squadron? Tell them to call WG and have them deal with it? Or what if one of our own squadron members wants to donate property specific to the unit?

It is my understanding that WG is supposed to send out thank you letters, at least that is what I have heard from the LG officer and other staff members in my unit but it never happens so our unit ends up doing it.

So if other units/Wings do not want offered items, then our choices would be A) Sale of said items or B) donate it to another nonprofit organization and then of course there are additional rules concerning sale of non DoD/Federally appropriated properties in CAPR 70-1.  Would selling the property be feasible or would it be just better to arrange for approval to have it disposed of and then figure out how to get rid of it?

[jimmydeanno]

Questions about property donated to the squadron, again the regulation does not make much sense in terms of how the squadron gets donated property although it is clear who is responsible and the proceedures quoted below:

SECTION B - DONATIONS – PROCEDURES
7. Donations of Property. Selected solicitation campaigns may be effective to obtain donations of property such as computers, aircraft, vehicles, radios, etc. For aircraft and vehicles, prior approval is required from NHQ CAP/EX. A Donation Receipt must be executed for all donations of $250 or more where no goods or services are provided to the donor and all donations of $75 or more where goods or services are provided to the donor. See Attachment 1, which may be reproduced locally. It is important that it is completely filled out and a copy retained in the corporate officer's file accepting the donation. In addition, the donor may request an IRS Form 8283. You many obtain an IRS Form 8283, Noncash Charitable Contributions, and instructions at http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/. CAP officers who may accept property donations are:
a. Wing commanders − for donations of property valued by donor up to $5,000.
b. Region commanders − for donation of property valued by donor between $5,000 and $10,000.
c. Executive Director − for donations of property valued by donor in excess of $10,000.

Basically Section B #7 is saying that a unit/squadron cannot accept donations? So, what am I supposed to do with property someone wants to donate to the squadron? Tell them to call WG and have them deal with it? Or what if one of our own squadron members wants to donate property specific to the unit?

It is my understanding that WG is supposed to send out thank you letters, at least that is what I have heard from the LG officer and other staff members in my unit but it never happens so our unit ends up doing it.

So if other units/Wings do not want offered items, then our choices would be A) Sale of said items or B) donate it to another nonprofit organization and then of course there are additional rules concerning sale of non DoD/Federally appropriated properties in CAPR 70-1.  Would selling the property be feasible or would it be just better to arrange for approval to have it disposed of and then figure out how to get rid of it?

The squadron can accept donations so long as their value doesn't exceed the limits listed above.  For instance, our Wing Commander sent out a supplement saying he was to be the approver for all donations of $1,000 or more.  So for me, if someone wanted to donate property (non-vehicle or aircraft) worth less than $1,000 - we could accept it and just issue a tax receipt. 

If the property exceeds that value or is a vehicle, aircraft, or real estate then the rules above apply because the corporate officer needs to determine whether or not the corporation wants to accept the responsibility that comes with it (ie: taxes, maintenance, etc).  The organization can refuse any donation if they choose (ie: the KKK wants to donate 10K to the CAP).

Lets run through some samples.

1) Cash donation of $500.00 to the squadron.  The squadron can accept this and issue a donation receipt as stated above.

2) Cash donation of $2500.00, must be accepted by Wing Commander (my wing).  Most likely will not be refused because their is no responsibility involved (ie: maintenance, etc).

3) Someone decides to donate a vehicle to your squadron.  You can not accept this, the Wing CC or higher (depending on value) must approve.  They most likely will not approve because it involves yearly maintenance, depreciation, etc.

4) Someone wants to donate a hangar to your squadron at the local airport. You can not accept this.  Only corporate officers are allowed to enter into corporate agreements for leases, etc.  Plus they would need to evaluate maintenance, taxes, etc and determine if the organization wants to be liable for it.

I'll quote some specific areas in some regulations I have been reading off and on. I have been told that NON-DoD property do not have to be reported on the S-3 or on CATS according to the regulations that is not true.

As for the CATS question, (if I read this right), if your squadron purchases equipment/property using Federally appropriated dollars (money from the AF), Corporate Dollars (money from NHQ) or State Appropriated dollars (money from the state) that property needs to be listed in CATS.  If you get a donated computer or your squadron purchases a wireless router, that doesn't need to be put in CATS.

Your squadron would most likely not be making purchases for things that need to be placed in CATS.  Those things usually go on the annual "want list" and will be procured at at least the Wing level.

So if other units/Wings do not want offered items, then our choices would be A) Sale of said items or B) donate it to another nonprofit organization and then of course there are additional rules concerning sale of non DoD/Federally appropriated properties in CAPR 70-1.  Would selling the property be feasible or would it be just better to arrange for approval to have it disposed of and then figure out how to get rid of it?

If the donation meets the criteria in which your unit can accept it, then you can accept it.  If the criteria is that the Wing CC is approver and he rejects the donation, you can't accept it.  Be aware though, if you accept a donation and dispose of it within a certain period of time, you are obligated to notify the donor of the disposal.

[RogueLeader]

Another thing, if a piece of equipment is donated for your squadrons use, it CAN be transfered to another unit, and there is nothing you can do about it. It is CAP property at the time it is donated.  However,  if the donor "lends" you the use of the property, for an undetermined amount of time, that is legal as well- as the donor retains ownership, and you have all the use of it.  Just make sure that the equipment is marked as the donors'.

[FW]

If we're talking about "property donations", only corporate officers can accept them.  The $250/75 floor for receipt is an IRS requirement.  The receipt requires a corp. officer's signature.  173-4 is clear on who's signature is needed. 

For cash donations, all you need is to notify the Wing/FM when you send in the deposit slip and a copy of the donation receipt.  No approval is necessary.  Notification is given to both Wing/FM and NHQ/FM if the cash donation is $5k or more. 

Now, who "handles" this at the squadron level?  If it's property, I'd let the SQ/LG handle the paperwork.  If it's cash, let the SQ/FM have the honor.

If you're going to purchase something with the cash you donated, let the SQ/FM handle the cash transaction and let the SQ/LG handle the CATS input.

BTW:  Donated funds become Corporate funds once accepted.  As does property.  Also, the donor can specify or restrict the use of the donation to a specific unit.  Make sure you explore these options and get it in writing if you want to "keep it".    CAP will not missappropriate a restricted donation.

[Eclipse]

...the donor can specify or restrict the use of the donation to a specific unit.  Make sure you explore these options and get it in writing if you want to "keep it".    CAP will not missappropriate a restricted donation.

Cite please...

I think it is unfortunate that whenever we start talking about money or property people seem to think its important to point out that "its all CAP money, and they can take whatever they want, etc."

While that may be true by regulation, and people can provide anecdotal evidence that this has occasionally occurred (generally with a much deeper political backstory and details left out), in 99.99% of the cases, Wing or NHQ does not want or care about your candy sales revenue, or the DVD player the FBO gave you (other than proper reporting requirements, of course).

To insinuate otherwise publicly propagates the "us vs. them" mentality that is not only incorrect, but also bad for morale and operations.  Remember "them" is "us" with less free time and more unpaid, poorly rewarded responsibility, and "them" becomes "us" again when their time is up as a commander.

[mynetdude]

Another thing, if a piece of equipment is donated for your squadrons use, it CAN be transfered to another unit, and there is nothing you can do about it. It is CAP property at the time it is donated.  However,  if the donor "lends" you the use of the property, for an undetermined amount of time, that is legal as well- as the donor retains ownership, and you have all the use of it.  Just make sure that the equipment is marked as the donors'.

Well I'd do one of the two things about this scenario:

Let the Donor know that it is being in vetted to CAP's care, it is subject to transfers outside of the unit and it would be marked as such.

The other option is if we were not to disclose the above, then return the property back to the donor that way there can't be any legal issues if the donor wants the property back and we have to retrieve it, etc.

[Eclipse]

The other option is if we were not to disclose the above,

Rather than committing fraud and conspiracy, just stick a label on it saying "property of "X" (and "X" >can< be a CAP member), and move on.

[mynetdude]

Well my next questions are:

Other than Federal/Corporate/State owned/donated property are all private donations supposed to be entered in CATS? The confusion is that our CAP-USAF liason says we don't need to. Along with CAPR 67-1 2-11 state owned/funded property that comes to our unit for use CAN be tracked in CATS upon the commander's discretion.

I guess I'll need to find the WG's supplements we don't seem to have a limit at $1,000 but the regs say only wing, region and NHQ can approve cash/property donations I don't see a limit of $1,000 in the regs for squadrons of course unless there was a supplement that says so correct?

The other question is getting rid of property CAP doesn't need or will ever use for example here's one I don't know if CAP will ever use which is a two way video confrencing system (I don't know much about it so don't ask) but it it comes with a TV on a cart, a PC-"like" box that looks like a PC tower and then a huge giant video camera that sits on top of the TV. What am I going to do with this? Or for anybody else for the matter.

CAP regs say that we cannot store or have excess property, and if there is something we no longer need or can't use we need to get rid of it.

[mynetdude]

The other option is if we were not to disclose the above,

Rather than committing fraud and conspiracy, just stick a label on it saying "property of "X" (and "X" >can< be a CAP member), and move on.

It would still be labeled regardless, all I was pointing out (and I think its silly you guys like to badger people about committing fraud)

If one doesn't tell the "lender" that the property is subject to relocation as needed, then your unit or you as a LG better make sure it doesn't go anywhere and gets returned to the lender or at least let them know so that you don't misappropriate property.

[RogueLeader]

If one doesn't tell the "lender" that the property is subject to relocation as needed, then your unit or you as a LG better make sure it doesn't go anywhere and gets returned to the lender or at least let them know so that you don't misappropriate property.

Not quite,  I can be ordered to turn a piece of property over to another unit- provided it is CAP property.  That is not fraud, thats life.

Now, if a piece of equipment is loaned to a unit, and is marked as such, then I can't be ordered to do anything with it, as it is not CAP property.

As for getting rid of unused or excess property, it all depends on where it came from.  If it was from DRMO, or FOB(Found on Base) it goes back to DRMO, provided that it is not expendable.  Your best bet, though, would to be to contact your Wing LG.

[Pylon]

If one doesn't tell the "lender" that the property is subject to relocation as needed, then your unit or you as a LG better make sure it doesn't go anywhere and gets returned to the lender or at least let them know so that you don't misappropriate property.

I have to agree with Aaron on this one.

I loan several things to my squadron, including an expensive piece of radio equipment.  It is my property, I own it and I choose to allow CAP to use it right now.  Civil Air Patrol could not say "The communications needs in New York City are greater than yours.  You will surrender that radio and send it to NYC." 

There are upsides and downsides to this approach:

Yes, your supporters could lend you property and materials while retaining legal ownership.  CAP could not exercise control over moving it to another unit.  However, if one day they decide they want their furniture/computer/equipment/building back, you have no choice but to shut up and put up.

Your supporters could donate property and materials to CAP.  The donors could not exercise control over it nor ask for it back.  However, if one day a higher echelon decides they want that furniture/computer/equipment/building sent somewhere else, you have no choice but to shut up and put up.

[jimmydeanno]

This is off the corporate partners page on cap.gov

Funds Determination: Should there be a particular mission or CAP wing / squadron that the Corporate Partner wishes to support, Civil Air Patrol Corporate Partner funds can be so designated in their name.  (* While Civil Air Patrol would prefer to determine the use of funds based on the urgency of needs nationally, Corporate Partner wishes will be given equal priority).

This tells me that people can decide what their donation goes to.  It's guaranteed.  So if CAP decides that they want to accept the donation - under the terms of the donor, they are obligated to utilize it as specified by the donor.

It's similar to you donating money to a college to build a new auditorium and they take the money and never build an auditorium.

[FW]

Cite please...

I think it is unfortunate that whenever we start talking about money or property people seem to think its important to point out that "its all CAP money, and they can take whatever they want, etc."

While that may be true by regulation, and people can provide anecdotal evidence that this has occasionally occurred (generally with a much deeper political backstory and details left out), in 99.99% of the cases, Wing or NHQ does not want or care about your candy sales revenue, or the DVD player the FBO gave you (other than proper reporting requirements, of course).

To insinuate otherwise publicly propagates the "us vs. them" mentality that is not only incorrect, but also bad for morale and operations.  Remember "them" is "us" with less free time and more unpaid, poorly rewarded responsibility, and "them" becomes "us" again when their time is up as a commander.

I was just pointing out what is common practice with donations.  If the donor (or unit) is worried about a transfer, the donor may restrict the donation.  If this restriction is not honored, the donor has the option of asking for it back.

I agree 100%, group/wing would not ask for a DVD or other small donation.  However, they may ask to transfer a VAN or Aircraft which was donated or purchased from donated funds.  If the donation is "restricted" , the item can NOT be transferred unless it is replaced with something of equal value and is acceptable by the donor.

CAPR 173-1 and CAPR 173-2 specifically prohibits cash from being transferred from a unit without prior approval of the squadron's finance committee. (Wing Banker Program).

[mynetdude]

If one doesn't tell the "lender" that the property is subject to relocation as needed, then your unit or you as a LG better make sure it doesn't go anywhere and gets returned to the lender or at least let them know so that you don't misappropriate property.

Not quite,  I can be ordered to turn a piece of property over to another unit- provided it is CAP property.  That is not fraud, thats life.

Now, if a piece of equipment is loaned to a unit, and is marked as such, then I can't be ordered to do anything with it, as it is not CAP property.

As for getting rid of unused or excess property, it all depends on where it came from.  If it was from DRMO, or FOB(Found on Base) it goes back to DRMO, provided that it is not expendable.  Your best bet, though, would to be to contact your Wing LG.

hence, it would be WISE and stupid on the LG's part not to label anything and as far as I know anything not marked as being loaned as such can and would be required to be returned to DRMO.

The property in question that our unit has no need for is a private donation, so I would have to discuss with the Wing LG concerning these matters.

[mynetdude]

If one doesn't tell the "lender" that the property is subject to relocation as needed, then your unit or you as a LG better make sure it doesn't go anywhere and gets returned to the lender or at least let them know so that you don't misappropriate property.

I have to agree with Aaron on this one.

I loan several things to my squadron, including an expensive piece of radio equipment.  It is my property, I own it and I choose to allow CAP to use it right now.  Civil Air Patrol could not say "The communications needs in New York City are greater than yours.  You will surrender that radio and send it to NYC." 

There are upsides and downsides to this approach:

Yes, your supporters could lend you property and materials while retaining legal ownership.  CAP could not exercise control over moving it to another unit.  However, if one day they decide they want their furniture/computer/equipment/building back, you have no choice but to shut up and put up.

Your supporters could donate property and materials to CAP.  The donors could not exercise control over it nor ask for it back.  However, if one day a higher echelon decides they want that furniture/computer/equipment/building sent somewhere else, you have no choice but to shut up and put up.

We have several computers that were donated like this, the donor specifically said it was for cadet programs so we did so and fulfilled that requirement no exceptions.

[jimmydeanno]

The property in question that our unit has no need for is a private donation, so I would have to discuss with the Wing LG concerning these matters.

Yep, talk to the wing guy for better answers.  However, in the meantime, I might offer this:

In CAPR 67-1, Chapter 2 it covers disposition of expendable and non-expendable items.  For the most part though, if it is expendable, less than $2K, not purchased with appropriated funds or CAP funds, has outlived its usefullness, isn't on the S-3, etc., you're more than likely just going to be able to throw it in the trash.

Just out curiosity, what is the item specifically?

[mynetdude]

The property in question that our unit has no need for is a private donation, so I would have to discuss with the Wing LG concerning these matters.

Yep, talk to the wing guy for better answers.  However, in the meantime, I might offer this:

In CAPR 67-1, Chapter 2 it covers disposition of expendable and non-expendable items.  For the most part though, if it is expendable, less than $2K, not purchased with appropriated funds or CAP funds, has outlived its usefullness, isn't on the S-3, etc., you're more than likely just going to be able to throw it in the trash.

Just out curiosity, what is the item specifically?

Well the item I'm speaking of as I mentioned or I think I mentioned (I wrote so many versions of my questions after deleting them a few times  ) One of the items is a video-confrencing device of some kind it is propriety and requires another "set" unit like it to work AFAIK from the previous LG officer. The Squadron has never used it, doesn't have a need for it now.

It comes in several major pieces: It has a flatbed scanner of some kind, 27" TV anchored to a rolling cart, camera that goes on top of the TV and some kind of hardware that looks like a PC tower I guess this unit's job is to coordinate the feed to and from the other unit somewhere else.  It was a private donation from Providence Hospital but we only got ONE of these, the other one is somewhere up north at another hospital (if they even still use it).

2ndly we have a mighty old projector that disappeared off CATS with the CPIN number still affixed to the projector itself. It is indeed OLD and HEAVY so it has exceeded its life of being usefulness even though we used it last year during SLS as it was all we had.

There are a bunch of little things like 14" TVs and such I don't have a count for what they all are right now as several things are scattered all over the place.


I don't mind sharing, who knows someone may have a better use than I can think of.

[mynetdude]

I could not find any supplements at the wing website or at the region website governing property donations or disposition regulations. So I get to do a lot of talking.

The question about whether private donations have to be tracked in CATS is still bugging me. As I know that Federally funded/donated and DoD property must be tracked in CATS and as I mentioned earlier above, it seems to say that even state funded property also must be tracked in CATS as well until another paragraph in 2.9 says it is optional at commander's discretion.

Personally IMHO I'd rather not track in CATS as it means a lot more pain work, but if I have to because regs say so then I must do so.  On the other hand, I've been told over and over from last spring until just a few weeks ago that our CAP-USAF Liason/Director of LG says we don't have to track private donations in CATS (just we have to keep records of it) but there are no supplements supporting this.

[jimmydeanno]

We don't track it in CATS.  However, I'd hate to see you get dinged because some guy on CAPTalk you never met told you something.  The best bet is to CYA and get the LG above you to give you a definitive answer as to what they expect.

[Ned]

A brief review of the law of gifts:

A gift is the present, voluntary transfer of property to another.  To be effective, it must actually be delivered to, and accepted by the person or entity receiving the gift.

Once the gift is delivered and accepted, the property now belongs to the donee, who can do anything they wish with it.  The donor does not retain any rights to control the property or compel its return.

For charities -- like CAP -- it is possible under most state laws to give a "restricted gift" if both the donor and CAP agree to the restrictions.  This has the effect of CAP essentially holding the gift in trust as long as CAP complies with the restrictions.  Remember, CAP does not have to agree to accept the restrictions.  And indeed, CAP does not usually do so because of the difficulties inherent in tracking all restricted gifts and the potential for litigation and problems should the restrictions become difficult to meet.  This is also one of the reasons why CAP officers must accept gifts above a certain level -- to help make sure that both the donor and CAP understand what is happening to the property.



In contrast, "loaning" property to someone else (what lawyers would call a "bailment") just transfers possession, not ownership.  The person who receives the loaned property must normally care for it and return it to the owner as agreed.  Issues sometimes arise when the owner never seeks the return of the property, essentially abandoning it.  Or when the person holding the property loses or commingles the loaned property.

Things get really fuzzy in a CAP context where it is not uncommon to have some property at a unit that nobody really knows the origin or who actually owns it.

Logistics Officer:  "That radio/projector/trailer was 'loaned' to unit back in 1992 by SM whatshizname who stopped coming back in 1996, I think.  Since I heard it wasn't really CAP property, we never entered it into the system."

That's why it is so important to document all property.  It is nearly impossible to try to reconstruct everyone's intentions years down the line.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[mynetdude]

A brief review of the law of gifts:

A gift is the present, voluntary transfer of property to another.  To be effective, it must actually be delivered to, and accepted by the person or entity receiving the gift.

Once the gift is delivered and accepted, the property now belongs to the donee, who can do anything they wish with it.  The donor does not retain any rights to control the property or compel its return.

For charities -- like CAP -- it is possible under most state laws to give a "restricted gift" if both the donor and CAP agree to the restrictions.  This has the effect of CAP essentially holding the gift in trust as long as CAP complies with the restrictions.  Remember, CAP does not have to agree to accept the restrictions.  And indeed, CAP does not usually do so because of the difficulties inherent in tracking all restricted gifts and the potential for litigation and problems should the restrictions become difficult to meet.  This is also one of the reasons why CAP officers must accept gifts above a certain level -- to help make sure that both the donor and CAP understand what is happening to the property.



In contrast, "loaning" property to someone else (what lawyers would call a "bailment") just transfers possession, not ownership.  The person who receives the loaned property must normally care for it and return it to the owner as agreed.  Issues sometimes arise when the owner never seeks the return of the property, essentially abandoning it.  Or when the person holding the property loses or commingles the loaned property.

Things get really fuzzy in a CAP context where it is not uncommon to have some property at a unit that nobody really knows the origin or who actually owns it.

Logistics Officer:  "That radio/projector/trailer was 'loaned' to unit back in 1992 by SM whatshizname who stopped coming back in 1996, I think.  Since I heard it wasn't really CAP property, we never entered it into the system."

That's why it is so important to document all property.  It is nearly impossible to try to reconstruct everyone's intentions years down the line.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

Well put, thats why our former LG officer was adamant, EVERYTHING that moves through our unit gets logged, loaned or donated and it gets a label affixed to it or a signage of some sort identifying it as such.  And he went on to say "even Donuts should be logged in expendables, but it doesn't because nobody cares"

I'm only asking for insight, not for sure answers, I would always still consult with my wing LG who happens to be a 2d Lt just as much as I am. This is a question so that I can get clarification on the regs and understand without having some clouded understanding when conversing with the wing LG officer in the near future.

[mynetdude]

We don't track it in CATS.  However, I'd hate to see you get dinged because some guy on CAPTalk you never met told you something.  The best bet is to CYA and get the LG above you to give you a definitive answer as to what they expect.

As I said in my very last post, this information on the forums is just for insight, not a "I told you so" manner.  So YMMV depending on wings and their supplements as far as CATS logging and/or limits on property value that a unit can accept. Although it does indicate that private property donations are optionally tracked based on region/wing regs if required.

[davedove]

Also understand that loaning something to a unit is not really a donation, at least not for the tax code.  If the lender retains ownership, he hasn't really donated the property.   In order for it to count as a deductible donation, all rights to the property must transfer to the recipient.

[mynetdude]

Also understand that loaning something to a unit is not really a donation, at least not for the tax code.  If the lender retains ownership, he hasn't really donated the property.   In order for it to count as a deductible donation, all rights to the property must transfer to the recipient.

Good point, so they don't receive a tax receipt, just a receipt showing they own it and we are borrowing it. At least you'd want to give them something in writing that documents such understanding right?

[badger bob]

Remember we are looking at IRS regulations, CAP requirements on Donations, the CAP structure that says only a Wing Commander is the sole authorized representative, and the CAPR 67-1 that also imposes AF requirements.

CAP ends up having to follow the strictest of all requirements.

ON PROPERTY
There is a complicated table  for property accountability in 67-1, because the property regulation is a mixture IRS, AF, Corporate, and legal requirements.

Some property is documented because of its source- IE DOD-surplus, DOD-funded, CAP corporate funded.
Other property is listed because a agency has asked for accountability and can ask for the property back- Property from DEA, Customs, or some states.

Other property is documented because of its use.
Computers are always tracked regardless of source. Any computer disposal must follow DOD disposal instructions due to OPSEC concerns. Radios are always tracked for the same reason.

Other property is tracked because it is sensitive- IE night vision equipment

Donated property may be tracked due to IRS regulations. If we write out a donation receipt for that $50,000 airplane that Col Joe wants to donate- but dispose of it when we find out it is junk- we have IRS reporting requirements that might reduce that $50,000 tax benefit that Col Joe wanted.

Finally, property is tracked to comply with common accounting procedure. Items valued over $5,000 etc etc

If you have loaned property, please document the loan with a letter in your property files and mark the equipment as such. If it is not documented, it is not "loaned" it is found on base.

If you have donated equipment that was not previously documented, I would encourage you to document the ones as donated that you can demonstrate were truly donations. A letter of donation is sufficient if the donor can be located. If the donor did not receive a tax benefit, by using the depreciated value of the item, the squadron commander may be able to accept. Your wing finance officer or logistics officer can help.

When in doubt, please check with your wing logistics staff before entering property into CATS.

A local commander can request items be tracked using CATS that are not accountable by all the above rules
As an example, a locally purchased wireless router probably does not require listing in CATS but the commander may want it tracked. There is the ability to list non-accountable property in CATS, but wing/ NHQ staff need to make the proper entries. The property will be issued a CAP asset number, but will not be part of a property audit or compliance inspection.

Local property that is non-accountable still requires the wing commanders approval for disposal. Remember, all property belongs to the corporation and he is the corporate officer.

[badger bob]

Also understand that loaning something to a unit is not really a donation, at least not for the tax code.  If the lender retains ownership, he hasn't really donated the property.   In order for it to count as a deductible donation, all rights to the property must transfer to the recipient.

Good point, so they don't receive a tax receipt, just a receipt showing they own it and we are borrowing it. At least you'd want to give them something in writing that documents such understanding right?

Very good point
This is a reason why the wing commander signs reciepts for donations. The property and its control must transfer to the corporation to be deductible. A squadron commander can usually accept small amounts of cash or expendable supplies, but larger amounts of cash or non-expendable supplies are acknowledeged by the (non-profit federally chartered) corporation.

[badger bob]

A brief review of the law of gifts:

A gift is the present, voluntary transfer of property to another.  To be effective, it must actually be delivered to, and accepted by the person or entity receiving the gift.

Once the gift is delivered and accepted, the property now belongs to the donee, who can do anything they wish with it.  The donor does not retain any rights to control the property or compel its return.

For charities -- like CAP -- it is possible under most state laws to give a "restricted gift" if both the donor and CAP agree to the restrictions.  This has the effect of CAP essentially holding the gift in trust as long as CAP complies with the restrictions.  Remember, CAP does not have to agree to accept the restrictions.  And indeed, CAP does not usually do so because of the difficulties inherent in tracking all restricted gifts and the potential for litigation and problems should the restrictions become difficult to meet.  This is also one of the reasons why CAP officers must accept gifts above a certain level -- to help make sure that both the donor and CAP understand what is happening to the property.



In contrast, "loaning" property to someone else (what lawyers would call a "bailment") just transfers possession, not ownership.  The person who receives the loaned property must normally care for it and return it to the owner as agreed.  Issues sometimes arise when the owner never seeks the return of the property, essentially abandoning it.  Or when the person holding the property loses or commingles the loaned property.

Things get really fuzzy in a CAP context where it is not uncommon to have some property at a unit that nobody really knows the origin or who actually owns it.

Logistics Officer:  "That radio/projector/trailer was 'loaned' to unit back in 1992 by SM whatshizname who stopped coming back in 1996, I think.  Since I heard it wasn't really CAP property, we never entered it into the system."

That's why it is so important to document all property.  It is nearly impossible to try to reconstruct everyone's intentions years down the line.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

Well put, thats why our former LG officer was adamant, EVERYTHING that moves through our unit gets logged, loaned or donated and it gets a label affixed to it or a signage of some sort identifying it as such.  And he went on to say "even Donuts should be logged in expendables, but it doesn't because nobody cares"

I'm only asking for insight, not for sure answers, I would always still consult with my wing LG who happens to be a 2d Lt just as much as I am. This is a question so that I can get clarification on the regs and understand without having some clouded understanding when conversing with the wing LG officer in the near future.

I have had some discussions with NHQ on this subject, and it shows the importance of documenting loans and donations.
Loaned items are not property of CAP and are not entered into CATS. Loaned items are under the control of the owner and must be returned and used according to their instructions.
A donated item is the property of CAP and is entered into CATS.
A loaned item that is no longer under the control of the owner- owner cant be found, never gave instructions, or left town- becomes "found on base". The control is still the responsibility of the wing, but disposition then requires DRMO disposition.

The slippery slope that is out there is the "non-profit booster club". There is a concern that some squadrons conduct fund raising as "CAP" but then have cash or property diverted to " local good old boys flying club CAP-XX-XXX". There are upcoming rewrites on the booster clubs, along with conflict of interest requirements requiring separation of the interests of the booster club from active members of CAP.  If you have property on loan from a booster club, please do more than write in magic marker "property of good old boys". You should have a letter documenting the loan of equipment from the officers of the booster club documenting the loan. Those booster club officers should not be active CAP members but could be family or parents of active members.

[badger bob]

Sorry about duplication, I am trying to work backwards through this thread

Well the item I'm speaking of as I mentioned or I think I mentioned (I wrote so many versions of my questions after deleting them a few times  ) One of the items is a video-conferencing device of some kind it is propriety and requires another "set" unit like it to work AFAIK from the

previous LG officer. The Squadron has never used it, doesn't have a need for it now.

It comes in several major pieces: It has a flatbed scanner of some kind, 27" TV anchored to a rolling cart, camera that goes on top of the TV and some kind of hardware that looks like a PC tower I guess this unit's job is to coordinate the feed to and from the other unit somewhere else.  It was a private donation from Providence Hospital but we only got ONE of these, the other one is somewhere up north at another hospital (if they even still use it).

If I were called, this would be my advice. Of course, your wing logistics officer may have different advice and they can call NHQ for clarification.

If you have equipment laying around that is unneeded or non-working, and it is not entered into CATS, it has no value to CAP either locally or as a corporation. What you have is junk and not an asset regardless of its original value. Perhaps originally it should have been documented- but was not- but its current status equals junk. That item should be disposed and removed from the property. If it is still in use locally, or if your wing officer can see a useful at another CAP location, then it should be entered into CATS.

2ndly we have a mighty old projector that disappeared off CATS with the CPIN number still affixed to the projector itself. It is indeed OLD and HEAVY so it has exceeded its life of being usefulness even though we used it last year during SLS as it was all we had.

CAP purged and wrote off old assets a number of years back. Wings had the opportunity to mark items for local disposal rather than DRMO disposal. Generally, those assets were prior to the previous 9xx,xxx series of CPIN numbers, and dated back 15 years or so. My guess is this projector was designated for local disposal but was kept because it was working and was useful. Have your wing logistics officer do a search. If it is useful and you are keeping it, enter it into CATS as found on base, if it is a computer projector. If it is an old overhead projector, it probably does not require addition to CATS. I would remove the old CPIN number if no longer valid.

There are a bunch of little things like 14" TVs and such I don't have a count for what they all are right now as several things are scattered all over the place.

In general. TVs and non-computer A/V equipment are considered expendable equipment. I would get specific guidance from your wing officer before entering them in CATS. Your squadron commander or your wing commander could request tracking as "non-accountable property" but NHQ must be notified so they are not included in National assets.

If I can be of assistance, please send me a PM and I will be happy to be more specific

Chris Klein, Capt, CAP
Great Lakes Region Supply Officer
Wisconsin Wing Supply Officer

[mynetdude]

Other property is documented because of its use.
Computers are always tracked regardless of source. Any computer disposal must follow DOD disposal instructions due to OPSEC concerns. Radios are always tracked for the same reason.

It is? Thats news to me, can you give me specifics to where I can find this? If that is true I need to know NOW not later.

[badger bob]

CAPR 67-1

2-3. Non-expendable Property consists of items of a durable nature that are neither consumed nor lose their identity during periods of use. CAP property meeting the following conditions is considered non-expendable:
a. Property, regardless of source, having a useful life of more than 1 year and whose acquisition cost exceeds $5,000. Acquisition cost must be documented in CATS when the property is obtained.
b. All property, regardless of source, whose fair market value exceeds $2,000.
c. Items deemed "pilferable" and indicated as such in the ToA by NHQ /LGS or the region/wing commander. (See attachment 3 for examples of pilferable items.)
d. Life support equipment. Life support equipment is any pre-positioned property that protects, sustains, or saves human life (e.g., oxygen bottles, life rafts, etc.). It is tracked in CATS because it is essential for many missions and must be readily available at all times.
e. Communications items and computers (laptop/desktop) are tracked for their useful life as indicated in the ToA.

Examples- not inclusive are shown in appendix 3 of CAPR 67-1

[mynetdude]

CAP purged and wrote off old assets a number of years back. Wings had the opportunity to mark items for local disposal rather than DRMO disposal. Generally, those assets were prior to the previous 9xx,xxx series of CPIN numbers, and dated back 15 years or so. My guess is this projector was designated for local disposal but was kept because it was working and was useful. Have your wing logistics officer do a search. If it is useful and you are keeping it, enter it into CATS as found on base, if it is a computer projector. If it is an old overhead projector, it probably does not require addition to CATS. I would remove the old CPIN number if no longer valid.

We're talking about a projector that uses a serial port to interface with video output to the lens.  This thing is the size of a monster computer and is extremely heavy.  If they purged it why isn't the squadron notified of a "purged" list so that the supply/LG officer can go "oh gee ok we have so and so purged, remove these CPINs and get them out of our way" instead of one day looking in CATS to see it disappear and go "oh well I guess its disposible in our back yard" or something like that.

According to regulation, whether it is tracked in CATS or not disposition instructions can vary and the squadron is not permitted to take it upon themselves to dispose of property however they want.

It is my understanding that property that were purchased with federal and corporate funds get tracked in CATS (and most likely will already be in CATS before we receive it as the WG LG will be handling that as it gets down to us) Property that comes from state funding is also to be tracked in CATS.

Here's where the blurr starts, property DONATED by the state does NOT have to be tracked in CATS, the commander can ELECT to have it tracked. Property donated from federal sources I believe have to be tracked in CATS as well.  Private donations do not unless there is significant value or the commander ELECTS to do so.

According to regulation, it doesn't say that unit commanders/LGs can accept any donations, though WING can stipulate that squadrons CAN accept donations up to XX dollars/dollar value for property which works as well.  Its all very confusing to me because of how our wing does things and doesn't always fit with the regs so I'm piecing it together slowly if not forever.

I have questions to ask the wing LG officer anyhow. So at least I should be on the right track.

I have stuff like RAM (if anyone remembers the old EDO and SDRAM) and hard drives between 850MB-15GB (formatted and some are nuked) that are not even accountable inventory that I have no clue what to do with yet.

[mynetdude]

CAPR 67-1

2-3. Non-expendable Property consists of items of a durable nature that are neither consumed nor lose their identity during periods of use. CAP property meeting the following conditions is considered non-expendable:
a. Property, regardless of source, having a useful life of more than 1 year and whose acquisition cost exceeds $5,000. Acquisition cost must be documented in CATS when the property is obtained.
b. All property, regardless of source, whose fair market value exceeds $2,000.
c. Items deemed "pilferable" and indicated as such in the ToA by NHQ /LGS or the region/wing commander. (See attachment 3 for examples of pilferable items.)
d. Life support equipment. Life support equipment is any pre-positioned property that protects, sustains, or saves human life (e.g., oxygen bottles, life rafts, etc.). It is tracked in CATS because it is essential for many missions and must be readily available at all times.
e. Communications items and computers (laptop/desktop) are tracked for their useful life as indicated in the ToA.

Examples- not inclusive are shown in appendix 3 of CAPR 67-1

Somehow I missed E: I did see all the other stuff.  Well in that case, I will be reviewing what is tracked within the next few months. Its still ify I'll be doing a lot of reading and asking questions because the CAP-USAF LG director who came to do the inspection said that private donations (including computers) didn't need to be on CATS hence why none of our current computers are on CATS right now.

It is only confusing because of what one said vs what it says written by NHQ.  If we had paperwork that says otherwise then I'd have something to go on.

What if a computer is loaned to the squadron, can it be accepted? Because loaned property is usually not tracked in CATS as such.  We don't have any loaned property right now. 

[badger bob]

CAP purged and wrote off old assets a number of years back. Wings had the opportunity to mark items for local disposal rather than DRMO disposal. Generally, those assets were prior to the previous 9xx,xxx series of CPIN numbers, and dated back 15 years or so. My guess is this projector was designated for local disposal but was kept because it was working and was useful. Have your wing logistics officer do a search. If it is useful and you are keeping it, enter it into CATS as found on base, if it is a computer projector. If it is an old overhead projector, it probably does not require addition to CATS. I would remove the old CPIN number if no longer valid.

We're talking about a projector that uses a serial port to interface with video output to the lens.  This thing is the size of a monster computer and is extremely heavy.  If they purged it why isn't the squadron notified of a "purged" list so that the supply/LG officer can go "oh gee ok we have so and so purged, remove these CPINs and get them out of our way" instead of one day looking in CATS to see it disappear and go "oh well I guess its disposible in our back yard" or something like that.

Probably not the only time things were done at the wing or region level without filtering down to the squadron. In any case, this was done before my time- maybe 10 years ago. My understanding is if it useful equipment that connects to a computer, it should be listed in CATS.

According to regulation, whether it is tracked in CATS or not disposition instructions can vary and the squadron is not permitted to take it upon themselves to dispose of property however they want.

If it needs to be listed in CATS as per 67-1 then it must be disposed of according to the instructions in 67-1. If it is not listed in CATS, then the local commander should make a determination as to wether it is useful. If not useful it is junk and we do not list junk as a asset.

It is my understanding that property that were purchased with federal and corporate funds get tracked in CATS (and most likely will already be in CATS before we receive it as the WG LG will be handling that as it gets down to us) Property that comes from state funding is also to be tracked in CATS.

Here's where the blurr starts, property DONATED by the state does NOT have to be tracked in CATS, the commander can ELECT to have it tracked. Property donated from federal sources I believe have to be tracked in CATS as well.  Private donations do not unless there is significant value or the commander ELECTS to do so.

According to regulation, it doesn't say that unit commanders/LGs can accept any donations, though WING can stipulate that squadrons CAN accept donations up to XX dollars/dollar value for property which works as well.  Its all very confusing to me because of how our wing does things and doesn't always fit with the regs so I'm piecing it together slowly if not forever.

Check with you wing LG but a donation from any source is still a donation. If your state donates a computer or digital camera it needs to be tracked in CATS. There is a source code State Funded, but it is still tracked in CATS even if it a outright donation. The title to the property is being transfered to CAP.

A used desk or used desk or old TV would ordinarily not be tracked, however if the state requires that they be returned to CAP when no longer used, they may require tracking. No first hand examples in my state, so check with your wing LG if this apples to you.

I have questions to ask the wing LG officer anyhow. So at least I should be on the right track.

I have stuff like RAM (if anyone remembers the old EDO and SDRAM) and hard drives between 850MB-15GB (formatted and some are nuked) that are not even accountable inventory that I have no clue what to do with yet.

Due to the OPSEC concerns, any computer hard drive removed from a CAP used computer should be destroyed or erased using a DOD approved hard drive wiping program.

RAM memory does not have AF radio frequencies burned to them, so they are ordinary junk if not useful.

[badger bob]

CAPR 67-1

2-3. Non-expendable Property consists of items of a durable nature that are neither consumed nor lose their identity during periods of use. CAP property meeting the following conditions is considered non-expendable:
a. Property, regardless of source, having a useful life of more than 1 year and whose acquisition cost exceeds $5,000. Acquisition cost must be documented in CATS when the property is obtained.
b. All property, regardless of source, whose fair market value exceeds $2,000.
c. Items deemed "pilferable" and indicated as such in the ToA by NHQ /LGS or the region/wing commander. (See attachment 3 for examples of pilferable items.)
d. Life support equipment. Life support equipment is any pre-positioned property that protects, sustains, or saves human life (e.g., oxygen bottles, life rafts, etc.). It is tracked in CATS because it is essential for many missions and must be readily available at all times.
e. Communications items and computers (laptop/desktop) are tracked for their useful life as indicated in the ToA.

Examples- not inclusive are shown in appendix 3 of CAPR 67-1

Somehow I missed E: I did see all the other stuff.  Well in that case, I will be reviewing what is tracked within the next few months. Its still ify I'll be doing a lot of reading and asking questions because the CAP-USAF LG director who came to do the inspection said that private donations (including computers) didn't need to be on CATS hence why none of our current computers are on CATS right now.

It is only confusing because of what one said vs what it says written by NHQ.  If we had paperwork that says otherwise then I'd have something to go on.

What if a computer is loaned to the squadron, can it be accepted? Because loaned property is usually not tracked in CATS as such.  We don't have any loaned property right now. 

I would disagree with your CAP-USAF LG

From CAPR 67-1

2-9. Property Donations. Individuals, business enterprises, foundations, state, and local governments may donate property to CAP. Acceptance of donations is authorized and encouraged, but units are to strictly follow CAPR 173-4, Fund Raising/Donations, procedures when receiving or selling donated property. Earmark all non-expendable property contributions as "Donation" in the "source" field of CATS and maintain a copy of the donation receipt in Part I of the Property File.

[mynetdude]

CAPR 67-1

2-3. Non-expendable Property consists of items of a durable nature that are neither consumed nor lose their identity during periods of use. CAP property meeting the following conditions is considered non-expendable:
a. Property, regardless of source, having a useful life of more than 1 year and whose acquisition cost exceeds $5,000. Acquisition cost must be documented in CATS when the property is obtained.
b. All property, regardless of source, whose fair market value exceeds $2,000.
c. Items deemed "pilferable" and indicated as such in the ToA by NHQ /LGS or the region/wing commander. (See attachment 3 for examples of pilferable items.)
d. Life support equipment. Life support equipment is any pre-positioned property that protects, sustains, or saves human life (e.g., oxygen bottles, life rafts, etc.). It is tracked in CATS because it is essential for many missions and must be readily available at all times.
e. Communications items and computers (laptop/desktop) are tracked for their useful life as indicated in the ToA.

Examples- not inclusive are shown in appendix 3 of CAPR 67-1

Somehow I missed E: I did see all the other stuff.  Well in that case, I will be reviewing what is tracked within the next few months. Its still ify I'll be doing a lot of reading and asking questions because the CAP-USAF LG director who came to do the inspection said that private donations (including computers) didn't need to be on CATS hence why none of our current computers are on CATS right now.

It is only confusing because of what one said vs what it says written by NHQ.  If we had paperwork that says otherwise then I'd have something to go on.

What if a computer is loaned to the squadron, can it be accepted? Because loaned property is usually not tracked in CATS as such.  We don't have any loaned property right now. 

I would disagree with your CAP-USAF LG

From CAPR 67-1

2-9. Property Donations. Individuals, business enterprises, foundations, state, and local governments may donate property to CAP. Acceptance of donations is authorized and encouraged, but units are to strictly follow CAPR 173-4, Fund Raising/Donations, procedures when receiving or selling donated property. Earmark all non-expendable property contributions as "Donation" in the "source" field of CATS and maintain a copy of the donation receipt in Part I of the Property File.

I would disagree with my CAP-USAF LG with my limited knowledge, I've read that paragraph so many times it makes me want to rethink what the heck I'm doing.

I'll definetely be reading then contacting my wing LG and let him contact the CAP-USAF LG director and see what they can figure out.

[fireplug]

AFLR Logistics folks have to be familiar with the AIR FORCE rules that apply to CAP regarding supply/logistics and communications functions, not necessarily the CAPR's also associated with these programs. The two do conflict; and a close reading of some sections of 67-1 regarding record keeping conflict with each other. It is best to do what the AFLR/LG wants you do do, document the telling, and move on.

[mynetdude]

AFLR Logistics folks have to be familiar with the AIR FORCE rules that apply to CAP regarding supply/logistics and communications functions, not necessarily the CAPR's also associated with these programs. The two do conflict; and a close reading of some sections of 67-1 regarding record keeping conflict with each other. It is best to do what the AFLR/LG wants you do do, document the telling, and move on.

Honestly I can't say much more than what I know, until I know more I'll be reviewing all the S-3s to date, F38s, F37s etc and I will ask my commander for the inspection summary for our squadron to see if it contains any details that I could benefit from.  Hopefully somewhere in the LG files it will have information about what was transpired with the CAP-USAF this past summer as it is unlikely the inspection summary is going to contain this information.

I know we passed, I just don't know the details. And if I have to, I will email director of LG as appropriate. I already have his email, I just want to go through chain of command first to get the information I need.

[badger bob]

AFLR Logistics folks have to be familiar with the AIR FORCE rules that apply to CAP regarding supply/logistics and communications functions, not necessarily the CAPR's also associated with these programs. The two do conflict; and a close reading of some sections of 67-1 regarding record keeping conflict with each other. It is best to do what the AFLR/LG wants you do do, document the telling, and move on.

I would suggest that if you find a conflict in rules, that you ask your wing LG to resolve it. Your wing LG can request clarification from CAP-NHQ LG if necessary. As a CAP members, we need to follow the CAP regulations. If they appear to conflict with AF advice or AF regulations, that is a matter to be resolved at a wing level or higher.

My policy is to respond in writing wherever it is appropriate to a squadron request for clarification. The squadron officer at least has documentation that they followed procedure and requested clarification. A IG team or Audit team has the authority to write up a compliance finding against the wing LG or even CAP-NHQ LG if they are not following or interpreting the regs correctly based on what was found during a squadron inspection.

By the same token, the IG team can write a finding against CAP-USAF or the regional survey audit team if they are found to be following regulations.

[mynetdude]

AFLR Logistics folks have to be familiar with the AIR FORCE rules that apply to CAP regarding supply/logistics and communications functions, not necessarily the CAPR's also associated with these programs. The two do conflict; and a close reading of some sections of 67-1 regarding record keeping conflict with each other. It is best to do what the AFLR/LG wants you do do, document the telling, and move on.

I would suggest that if you find a conflict in rules, that you ask your wing LG to resolve it. Your wing LG can request clarification from CAP-NHQ LG if necessary. As a CAP members, we need to follow the CAP regulations. If they appear to conflict with AF advice or AF regulations, that is a matter to be resolved at a wing level or higher.

My policy is to respond in writing wherever it is appropriate to a squadron request for clarification. The squadron officer at least has documentation that they followed procedure and requested clarification. A IG team or Audit team has the authority to write up a compliance finding against the wing LG or even CAP-NHQ LG if they are not following or interpreting the regs correctly based on what was found during a squadron inspection.

By the same token, the IG team can write a finding against CAP-USAF or the regional survey audit team if they are found to be following regulations.

This is why I want to go through my chain of command, so that they are aware of what I am trying to accomplish and so they know that "well gee, if this is what it really says we're supposed to do lets make sure all the squadrons are aware of it" rather than me trying to bypass protocol which I do have the ability to talk to region CAP-USAF LG director direct via email but I'm not going to do that unless I absolutely have to and hopefully I won't need to WG needs to support the squadrons; and most will/do support their squadrons (this isn't to say anyone is perfect either).

So I definetely will confirm with a brief post of what really happens when I find out what I want/need to know. Should be in a couple weeks