Questions about squadron property/assets Squadron level LG

[mynetdude]

I'm not trying to defy my training that I was told this and that and while I am sure that he isn't wrong either and well I suppose I should just read the whole manual before asking but I can't seem to find even the most specific information assuming I am looking in the right spot.

What I'm trying to find out about is: property donations, who are these handled by? the LG officer or the Finance officer (assuming these are properties under $5,000 as property at $5k or more have to be approved by NHQ anyway).

I'll quote some specific areas in some regulations I have been reading off and on. I have been told that NON-DoD property do not have to be reported on the S-3 or on CATS according to the regulations that is not true.


CAPR 67-1 2.8

Purchasing Property. Under certain conditions, CAP units may purchase needed items with Federally-appropriated funds, corporate funds, or other funds such as those provided by a state or local government. See CAPR 70-1, CAP Acquisition Regulation, for policies concerning expenditure of funds. The wing legal officer should be consulted prior to the use of state or local government provided funds. Log all non-expendable property purchases into CATS and indicate in the CATS "source" field whether the item is DoD-funded, state-funded, or corporate-funded. NHQ /LGS will input property purchased by NHQ into CATS. Region/wing LG staff are responsible for logging their property purchases on the CAPF 38 and entering them into CATS.

As clearly as this says, property purchased using Federal, Corporate, State funds must be entered into CATS regardless of value? I'm not sure if it seems that Region/Wing is responsible for this? I don't know if purchases of such types are allowed by the squadrons?

I still have further question...

CAPR 67-1 2.9

Property Donations. Individuals, business enterprises, foundations, state, and local governments may donate property to CAP. Acceptance of donations is authorized and encouraged, but units are to strictly follow CAPR 173-4, Fund Raising/Donations, procedures when receiving or selling donated property. Earmark all non-expendable property contributions as "Donation" in the "source" field of CATS and maintain a copy of the donation receipt in Part I of the Property File.

I'm confused by this one, because we have a lot of property that were privately donated and are not on CATS though they DO have a document number which has been recorded in a numerical sequencing order as per instructions.  I haven't gotten this far into where to find out how to properly obtain correct document record number for each item other than the instructions given to me from the retired LG officer who just recently retired from my squadron. (Not that I can't ask him, I'm not interested in barraging him with more questions that we have gone over countless of times but why bother him he is retired).

So... what I'm saying is... this regulation is in contradiction to the instructions I have received, non DOD property need not be on CATS infact our region CAP-USAF Liason also the director of logistics says that it doesn't need to be on CATS per our inspection that we got selected for. I'm sorry if I'm asking silly questions or being blatant but so far I can't seem to find the specifics regarding not needing to enter into CATS. (and really I'd rather NOT enter into CATS as its less paperwork and easier to move things around as needed).

However take note of this:

CAPR 2-11

State-funded/owned Property. Title to state-owned property remains vested in the state government. At the commander's discretion, state-funded/owned property may be tracked in CATS and reported on the annual S-3 inventory. Record the source as "state-funded". When state-funded/owned property is no longer needed, contact the lending agency in writing for coordination of disposition instructions.

This is pretty self explanatory I understand this... no need to ask questions about this except that it seems to counter the above 2.8 and 2.9 that state appropriated property must be in CATS, 2-11 says at the commander's discretion so is it safe abide by 2-11 if it were state appropriated property?

There is a splurge in the 67-1 that specifically states that CAP units/WGs are not to have property that have no real ability to fulfill its mission or to have excess property.  We don't have excess property (not anymore we don't) but we have a few things here and there (in small numbers) that we A) no longer need to use B) we can't use because it requires something else.

Now, I would assume it would be WISE to ask other units in the state if they want XX item and we would be happy to transfer it to them or I suppose I'd transfer it back to Wing and let them distribute it to units that may have better use for it but the question besomes is it worth the cost to drive xx hours to get 1 or 2 items or what not.

We also had an item that was aquired through DRMO channels that recently disappeared off CATS as to why, we are not sure there is no information or documentation saying why but it is a mighty old projector with the CPIN still on it and I have no idea what to do with it as far as disposition/disposal of it goes since we already have a brand new projector which I have yet to look up in our internal database and I'm not sure how it was aquired (assuming squadron funds).


Questions about property donated to the squadron, again the regulation does not make much sense in terms of how the squadron gets donated property although it is clear who is responsible and the proceedures quoted below:

SECTION B - DONATIONS – PROCEDURES
7. Donations of Property. Selected solicitation campaigns may be effective to obtain donations of property such as computers, aircraft, vehicles, radios, etc. For aircraft and vehicles, prior approval is required from NHQ CAP/EX. A Donation Receipt must be executed for all donations of $250 or more where no goods or services are provided to the donor and all donations of $75 or more where goods or services are provided to the donor. See Attachment 1, which may be reproduced locally. It is important that it is completely filled out and a copy retained in the corporate officer's file accepting the donation. In addition, the donor may request an IRS Form 8283. You many obtain an IRS Form 8283, Noncash Charitable Contributions, and instructions at http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/. CAP officers who may accept property donations are:
a. Wing commanders − for donations of property valued by donor up to $5,000.
b. Region commanders − for donation of property valued by donor between $5,000 and $10,000.
c. Executive Director − for donations of property valued by donor in excess of $10,000.

Basically Section B #7 is saying that a unit/squadron cannot accept donations? So, what am I supposed to do with property someone wants to donate to the squadron? Tell them to call WG and have them deal with it? Or what if one of our own squadron members wants to donate property specific to the unit?

It is my understanding that WG is supposed to send out thank you letters, at least that is what I have heard from the LG officer and other staff members in my unit but it never happens so our unit ends up doing it.

So if other units/Wings do not want offered items, then our choices would be A) Sale of said items or B) donate it to another nonprofit organization and then of course there are additional rules concerning sale of non DoD/Federally appropriated properties in CAPR 70-1.  Would selling the property be feasible or would it be just better to arrange for approval to have it disposed of and then figure out how to get rid of it?

[jimmydeanno]

Questions about property donated to the squadron, again the regulation does not make much sense in terms of how the squadron gets donated property although it is clear who is responsible and the proceedures quoted below:

SECTION B - DONATIONS – PROCEDURES
7. Donations of Property. Selected solicitation campaigns may be effective to obtain donations of property such as computers, aircraft, vehicles, radios, etc. For aircraft and vehicles, prior approval is required from NHQ CAP/EX. A Donation Receipt must be executed for all donations of $250 or more where no goods or services are provided to the donor and all donations of $75 or more where goods or services are provided to the donor. See Attachment 1, which may be reproduced locally. It is important that it is completely filled out and a copy retained in the corporate officer's file accepting the donation. In addition, the donor may request an IRS Form 8283. You many obtain an IRS Form 8283, Noncash Charitable Contributions, and instructions at http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/. CAP officers who may accept property donations are:
a. Wing commanders − for donations of property valued by donor up to $5,000.
b. Region commanders − for donation of property valued by donor between $5,000 and $10,000.
c. Executive Director − for donations of property valued by donor in excess of $10,000.

Basically Section B #7 is saying that a unit/squadron cannot accept donations? So, what am I supposed to do with property someone wants to donate to the squadron? Tell them to call WG and have them deal with it? Or what if one of our own squadron members wants to donate property specific to the unit?

It is my understanding that WG is supposed to send out thank you letters, at least that is what I have heard from the LG officer and other staff members in my unit but it never happens so our unit ends up doing it.

So if other units/Wings do not want offered items, then our choices would be A) Sale of said items or B) donate it to another nonprofit organization and then of course there are additional rules concerning sale of non DoD/Federally appropriated properties in CAPR 70-1.  Would selling the property be feasible or would it be just better to arrange for approval to have it disposed of and then figure out how to get rid of it?

The squadron can accept donations so long as their value doesn't exceed the limits listed above.  For instance, our Wing Commander sent out a supplement saying he was to be the approver for all donations of $1,000 or more.  So for me, if someone wanted to donate property (non-vehicle or aircraft) worth less than $1,000 - we could accept it and just issue a tax receipt. 

If the property exceeds that value or is a vehicle, aircraft, or real estate then the rules above apply because the corporate officer needs to determine whether or not the corporation wants to accept the responsibility that comes with it (ie: taxes, maintenance, etc).  The organization can refuse any donation if they choose (ie: the KKK wants to donate 10K to the CAP).

Lets run through some samples.

1) Cash donation of $500.00 to the squadron.  The squadron can accept this and issue a donation receipt as stated above.

2) Cash donation of $2500.00, must be accepted by Wing Commander (my wing).  Most likely will not be refused because their is no responsibility involved (ie: maintenance, etc).

3) Someone decides to donate a vehicle to your squadron.  You can not accept this, the Wing CC or higher (depending on value) must approve.  They most likely will not approve because it involves yearly maintenance, depreciation, etc.

4) Someone wants to donate a hangar to your squadron at the local airport. You can not accept this.  Only corporate officers are allowed to enter into corporate agreements for leases, etc.  Plus they would need to evaluate maintenance, taxes, etc and determine if the organization wants to be liable for it.

I'll quote some specific areas in some regulations I have been reading off and on. I have been told that NON-DoD property do not have to be reported on the S-3 or on CATS according to the regulations that is not true.

As for the CATS question, (if I read this right), if your squadron purchases equipment/property using Federally appropriated dollars (money from the AF), Corporate Dollars (money from NHQ) or State Appropriated dollars (money from the state) that property needs to be listed in CATS.  If you get a donated computer or your squadron purchases a wireless router, that doesn't need to be put in CATS.

Your squadron would most likely not be making purchases for things that need to be placed in CATS.  Those things usually go on the annual "want list" and will be procured at at least the Wing level.

So if other units/Wings do not want offered items, then our choices would be A) Sale of said items or B) donate it to another nonprofit organization and then of course there are additional rules concerning sale of non DoD/Federally appropriated properties in CAPR 70-1.  Would selling the property be feasible or would it be just better to arrange for approval to have it disposed of and then figure out how to get rid of it?

If the donation meets the criteria in which your unit can accept it, then you can accept it.  If the criteria is that the Wing CC is approver and he rejects the donation, you can't accept it.  Be aware though, if you accept a donation and dispose of it within a certain period of time, you are obligated to notify the donor of the disposal.

[RogueLeader]

Another thing, if a piece of equipment is donated for your squadrons use, it CAN be transfered to another unit, and there is nothing you can do about it. It is CAP property at the time it is donated.  However,  if the donor "lends" you the use of the property, for an undetermined amount of time, that is legal as well- as the donor retains ownership, and you have all the use of it.  Just make sure that the equipment is marked as the donors'.

[FW]

If we're talking about "property donations", only corporate officers can accept them.  The $250/75 floor for receipt is an IRS requirement.  The receipt requires a corp. officer's signature.  173-4 is clear on who's signature is needed. 

For cash donations, all you need is to notify the Wing/FM when you send in the deposit slip and a copy of the donation receipt.  No approval is necessary.  Notification is given to both Wing/FM and NHQ/FM if the cash donation is $5k or more. 

Now, who "handles" this at the squadron level?  If it's property, I'd let the SQ/LG handle the paperwork.  If it's cash, let the SQ/FM have the honor.

If you're going to purchase something with the cash you donated, let the SQ/FM handle the cash transaction and let the SQ/LG handle the CATS input.

BTW:  Donated funds become Corporate funds once accepted.  As does property.  Also, the donor can specify or restrict the use of the donation to a specific unit.  Make sure you explore these options and get it in writing if you want to "keep it".    CAP will not missappropriate a restricted donation.

[Eclipse]

...the donor can specify or restrict the use of the donation to a specific unit.  Make sure you explore these options and get it in writing if you want to "keep it".    CAP will not missappropriate a restricted donation.

Cite please...

I think it is unfortunate that whenever we start talking about money or property people seem to think its important to point out that "its all CAP money, and they can take whatever they want, etc."

While that may be true by regulation, and people can provide anecdotal evidence that this has occasionally occurred (generally with a much deeper political backstory and details left out), in 99.99% of the cases, Wing or NHQ does not want or care about your candy sales revenue, or the DVD player the FBO gave you (other than proper reporting requirements, of course).

To insinuate otherwise publicly propagates the "us vs. them" mentality that is not only incorrect, but also bad for morale and operations.  Remember "them" is "us" with less free time and more unpaid, poorly rewarded responsibility, and "them" becomes "us" again when their time is up as a commander.

[mynetdude]

Another thing, if a piece of equipment is donated for your squadrons use, it CAN be transfered to another unit, and there is nothing you can do about it. It is CAP property at the time it is donated.  However,  if the donor "lends" you the use of the property, for an undetermined amount of time, that is legal as well- as the donor retains ownership, and you have all the use of it.  Just make sure that the equipment is marked as the donors'.

Well I'd do one of the two things about this scenario:

Let the Donor know that it is being in vetted to CAP's care, it is subject to transfers outside of the unit and it would be marked as such.

The other option is if we were not to disclose the above, then return the property back to the donor that way there can't be any legal issues if the donor wants the property back and we have to retrieve it, etc.

[Eclipse]

The other option is if we were not to disclose the above,

Rather than committing fraud and conspiracy, just stick a label on it saying "property of "X" (and "X" >can< be a CAP member), and move on.

[mynetdude]

Well my next questions are:

Other than Federal/Corporate/State owned/donated property are all private donations supposed to be entered in CATS? The confusion is that our CAP-USAF liason says we don't need to. Along with CAPR 67-1 2-11 state owned/funded property that comes to our unit for use CAN be tracked in CATS upon the commander's discretion.

I guess I'll need to find the WG's supplements we don't seem to have a limit at $1,000 but the regs say only wing, region and NHQ can approve cash/property donations I don't see a limit of $1,000 in the regs for squadrons of course unless there was a supplement that says so correct?

The other question is getting rid of property CAP doesn't need or will ever use for example here's one I don't know if CAP will ever use which is a two way video confrencing system (I don't know much about it so don't ask) but it it comes with a TV on a cart, a PC-"like" box that looks like a PC tower and then a huge giant video camera that sits on top of the TV. What am I going to do with this? Or for anybody else for the matter.

CAP regs say that we cannot store or have excess property, and if there is something we no longer need or can't use we need to get rid of it.

[mynetdude]

The other option is if we were not to disclose the above,

Rather than committing fraud and conspiracy, just stick a label on it saying "property of "X" (and "X" >can< be a CAP member), and move on.

It would still be labeled regardless, all I was pointing out (and I think its silly you guys like to badger people about committing fraud)

If one doesn't tell the "lender" that the property is subject to relocation as needed, then your unit or you as a LG better make sure it doesn't go anywhere and gets returned to the lender or at least let them know so that you don't misappropriate property.

[RogueLeader]

If one doesn't tell the "lender" that the property is subject to relocation as needed, then your unit or you as a LG better make sure it doesn't go anywhere and gets returned to the lender or at least let them know so that you don't misappropriate property.

Not quite,  I can be ordered to turn a piece of property over to another unit- provided it is CAP property.  That is not fraud, thats life.

Now, if a piece of equipment is loaned to a unit, and is marked as such, then I can't be ordered to do anything with it, as it is not CAP property.

As for getting rid of unused or excess property, it all depends on where it came from.  If it was from DRMO, or FOB(Found on Base) it goes back to DRMO, provided that it is not expendable.  Your best bet, though, would to be to contact your Wing LG.

[Pylon]

If one doesn't tell the "lender" that the property is subject to relocation as needed, then your unit or you as a LG better make sure it doesn't go anywhere and gets returned to the lender or at least let them know so that you don't misappropriate property.

I have to agree with Aaron on this one.

I loan several things to my squadron, including an expensive piece of radio equipment.  It is my property, I own it and I choose to allow CAP to use it right now.  Civil Air Patrol could not say "The communications needs in New York City are greater than yours.  You will surrender that radio and send it to NYC." 

There are upsides and downsides to this approach:

Yes, your supporters could lend you property and materials while retaining legal ownership.  CAP could not exercise control over moving it to another unit.  However, if one day they decide they want their furniture/computer/equipment/building back, you have no choice but to shut up and put up.

Your supporters could donate property and materials to CAP.  The donors could not exercise control over it nor ask for it back.  However, if one day a higher echelon decides they want that furniture/computer/equipment/building sent somewhere else, you have no choice but to shut up and put up.

[jimmydeanno]

This is off the corporate partners page on cap.gov

Funds Determination: Should there be a particular mission or CAP wing / squadron that the Corporate Partner wishes to support, Civil Air Patrol Corporate Partner funds can be so designated in their name.  (* While Civil Air Patrol would prefer to determine the use of funds based on the urgency of needs nationally, Corporate Partner wishes will be given equal priority).

This tells me that people can decide what their donation goes to.  It's guaranteed.  So if CAP decides that they want to accept the donation - under the terms of the donor, they are obligated to utilize it as specified by the donor.

It's similar to you donating money to a college to build a new auditorium and they take the money and never build an auditorium.

[FW]

Cite please...

I think it is unfortunate that whenever we start talking about money or property people seem to think its important to point out that "its all CAP money, and they can take whatever they want, etc."

While that may be true by regulation, and people can provide anecdotal evidence that this has occasionally occurred (generally with a much deeper political backstory and details left out), in 99.99% of the cases, Wing or NHQ does not want or care about your candy sales revenue, or the DVD player the FBO gave you (other than proper reporting requirements, of course).

To insinuate otherwise publicly propagates the "us vs. them" mentality that is not only incorrect, but also bad for morale and operations.  Remember "them" is "us" with less free time and more unpaid, poorly rewarded responsibility, and "them" becomes "us" again when their time is up as a commander.

I was just pointing out what is common practice with donations.  If the donor (or unit) is worried about a transfer, the donor may restrict the donation.  If this restriction is not honored, the donor has the option of asking for it back.

I agree 100%, group/wing would not ask for a DVD or other small donation.  However, they may ask to transfer a VAN or Aircraft which was donated or purchased from donated funds.  If the donation is "restricted" , the item can NOT be transferred unless it is replaced with something of equal value and is acceptable by the donor.

CAPR 173-1 and CAPR 173-2 specifically prohibits cash from being transferred from a unit without prior approval of the squadron's finance committee. (Wing Banker Program).

[mynetdude]

If one doesn't tell the "lender" that the property is subject to relocation as needed, then your unit or you as a LG better make sure it doesn't go anywhere and gets returned to the lender or at least let them know so that you don't misappropriate property.

Not quite,  I can be ordered to turn a piece of property over to another unit- provided it is CAP property.  That is not fraud, thats life.

Now, if a piece of equipment is loaned to a unit, and is marked as such, then I can't be ordered to do anything with it, as it is not CAP property.

As for getting rid of unused or excess property, it all depends on where it came from.  If it was from DRMO, or FOB(Found on Base) it goes back to DRMO, provided that it is not expendable.  Your best bet, though, would to be to contact your Wing LG.

hence, it would be WISE and stupid on the LG's part not to label anything and as far as I know anything not marked as being loaned as such can and would be required to be returned to DRMO.

The property in question that our unit has no need for is a private donation, so I would have to discuss with the Wing LG concerning these matters.

[mynetdude]

If one doesn't tell the "lender" that the property is subject to relocation as needed, then your unit or you as a LG better make sure it doesn't go anywhere and gets returned to the lender or at least let them know so that you don't misappropriate property.

I have to agree with Aaron on this one.

I loan several things to my squadron, including an expensive piece of radio equipment.  It is my property, I own it and I choose to allow CAP to use it right now.  Civil Air Patrol could not say "The communications needs in New York City are greater than yours.  You will surrender that radio and send it to NYC." 

There are upsides and downsides to this approach:

Yes, your supporters could lend you property and materials while retaining legal ownership.  CAP could not exercise control over moving it to another unit.  However, if one day they decide they want their furniture/computer/equipment/building back, you have no choice but to shut up and put up.

Your supporters could donate property and materials to CAP.  The donors could not exercise control over it nor ask for it back.  However, if one day a higher echelon decides they want that furniture/computer/equipment/building sent somewhere else, you have no choice but to shut up and put up.

We have several computers that were donated like this, the donor specifically said it was for cadet programs so we did so and fulfilled that requirement no exceptions.

[jimmydeanno]

The property in question that our unit has no need for is a private donation, so I would have to discuss with the Wing LG concerning these matters.

Yep, talk to the wing guy for better answers.  However, in the meantime, I might offer this:

In CAPR 67-1, Chapter 2 it covers disposition of expendable and non-expendable items.  For the most part though, if it is expendable, less than $2K, not purchased with appropriated funds or CAP funds, has outlived its usefullness, isn't on the S-3, etc., you're more than likely just going to be able to throw it in the trash.

Just out curiosity, what is the item specifically?

[mynetdude]

The property in question that our unit has no need for is a private donation, so I would have to discuss with the Wing LG concerning these matters.

Yep, talk to the wing guy for better answers.  However, in the meantime, I might offer this:

In CAPR 67-1, Chapter 2 it covers disposition of expendable and non-expendable items.  For the most part though, if it is expendable, less than $2K, not purchased with appropriated funds or CAP funds, has outlived its usefullness, isn't on the S-3, etc., you're more than likely just going to be able to throw it in the trash.

Just out curiosity, what is the item specifically?

Well the item I'm speaking of as I mentioned or I think I mentioned (I wrote so many versions of my questions after deleting them a few times  ) One of the items is a video-confrencing device of some kind it is propriety and requires another "set" unit like it to work AFAIK from the previous LG officer. The Squadron has never used it, doesn't have a need for it now.

It comes in several major pieces: It has a flatbed scanner of some kind, 27" TV anchored to a rolling cart, camera that goes on top of the TV and some kind of hardware that looks like a PC tower I guess this unit's job is to coordinate the feed to and from the other unit somewhere else.  It was a private donation from Providence Hospital but we only got ONE of these, the other one is somewhere up north at another hospital (if they even still use it).

2ndly we have a mighty old projector that disappeared off CATS with the CPIN number still affixed to the projector itself. It is indeed OLD and HEAVY so it has exceeded its life of being usefulness even though we used it last year during SLS as it was all we had.

There are a bunch of little things like 14" TVs and such I don't have a count for what they all are right now as several things are scattered all over the place.


I don't mind sharing, who knows someone may have a better use than I can think of.

[mynetdude]

I could not find any supplements at the wing website or at the region website governing property donations or disposition regulations. So I get to do a lot of talking.

The question about whether private donations have to be tracked in CATS is still bugging me. As I know that Federally funded/donated and DoD property must be tracked in CATS and as I mentioned earlier above, it seems to say that even state funded property also must be tracked in CATS as well until another paragraph in 2.9 says it is optional at commander's discretion.

Personally IMHO I'd rather not track in CATS as it means a lot more pain work, but if I have to because regs say so then I must do so.  On the other hand, I've been told over and over from last spring until just a few weeks ago that our CAP-USAF Liason/Director of LG says we don't have to track private donations in CATS (just we have to keep records of it) but there are no supplements supporting this.

[jimmydeanno]

We don't track it in CATS.  However, I'd hate to see you get dinged because some guy on CAPTalk you never met told you something.  The best bet is to CYA and get the LG above you to give you a definitive answer as to what they expect.

[Ned]

A brief review of the law of gifts:

A gift is the present, voluntary transfer of property to another.  To be effective, it must actually be delivered to, and accepted by the person or entity receiving the gift.

Once the gift is delivered and accepted, the property now belongs to the donee, who can do anything they wish with it.  The donor does not retain any rights to control the property or compel its return.

For charities -- like CAP -- it is possible under most state laws to give a "restricted gift" if both the donor and CAP agree to the restrictions.  This has the effect of CAP essentially holding the gift in trust as long as CAP complies with the restrictions.  Remember, CAP does not have to agree to accept the restrictions.  And indeed, CAP does not usually do so because of the difficulties inherent in tracking all restricted gifts and the potential for litigation and problems should the restrictions become difficult to meet.  This is also one of the reasons why CAP officers must accept gifts above a certain level -- to help make sure that both the donor and CAP understand what is happening to the property.



In contrast, "loaning" property to someone else (what lawyers would call a "bailment") just transfers possession, not ownership.  The person who receives the loaned property must normally care for it and return it to the owner as agreed.  Issues sometimes arise when the owner never seeks the return of the property, essentially abandoning it.  Or when the person holding the property loses or commingles the loaned property.

Things get really fuzzy in a CAP context where it is not uncommon to have some property at a unit that nobody really knows the origin or who actually owns it.

Logistics Officer:  "That radio/projector/trailer was 'loaned' to unit back in 1992 by SM whatshizname who stopped coming back in 1996, I think.  Since I heard it wasn't really CAP property, we never entered it into the system."

That's why it is so important to document all property.  It is nearly impossible to try to reconstruct everyone's intentions years down the line.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer