Social (drinking) functions around cadets

[LittleIronPilot]

Just a point, one that seems lost: social drinking != alcohol abuse.

That is like saying someone speeding 1 mile over the limit is driving recklessly and endangering lives.

What seems to be the issue is that many DO feel that drinking is bad, period, and that any exposure to it from someone in "leadership" sends the message that moderate drinking, by adults, is OK and some of you do not want even THAT message sent.

BTW...it seems I stand corrected on Europe, though I still have a different view on things.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Chaplain Bill:

Don't wory about sounding "Preachy."  You are, after all, a Preacher.  It would seem that such conduct would come with the job title.

You are also correct.  Toasts at events where cadets are present can be made with sparking grape juice.  Class 6 supplies have no role in cadet activities.

But, adults are adults.  At an event where cadets are NOT present, or in an area designated as "Off limits" to cadets, I see no reason why officers cannot share a cocktail or two.  People who cannot handle their liquor are a leadership problem, same as in the RealMilitary, and good leaders will address it early and effectively.

[mikeylikey]

^  Good points!  Lets also not forget to have non-alcoholic beverages for those adults that don't drink.  I have attended a few CAP activities where Alcohol was the only thing provided, or the only drink that was free at the bar, while soda was $1.50  Ridiculous!

[davedove]

^  Good points!  Lets also not forget to have non-alcoholic beverages for those adults that don't drink.  I have attended a few CAP activities where Alcohol was the only thing provided, or the only drink that was free at the bar, while soda was $1.50  Ridiculous!

Now THAT is ridiculous, not to mention socially irresponsible.  That setup is encouraging people to drink the alcohol.  If anything, it ought to be the opposite.

[mikeylikey]

^ Agreed!

[Fifinella]

...looking at eclipses without the proper gear...

HEY!   

Yeah, especially you!

[Fifinella]

But, now here's a serious question, that nobody has addressed:

We finish an exercise, the cadets all are on their way home, and the officers decide to have an after-action review at a Beef O'Brady's, or something.  Two of the officers have children who are cadets in the unit, and bring them.

Now what?

Assuming this is still about alcohol, and not "favoritism" or "fraternization", i have a question and a comment.

Who's driving?  IMO, adults should NEVER drink any alcohol in front of a cadet and then drive.  One drink will probably not impair an adult (for sake of argument), particularly when drunk with a meal, but it is a dangerous example to give to a (presumably) younger, smaller, less-experienced driver.

That being said, I still don't think it's asking too much that the adults not drink in front of the cadets.  I would not drink in this situation, and I would ask my staff not to drink either. 

They may see their parents drink at home.  But at CAP they are learning about other environments.  CAP can be a place where the cadets (and maybe even the seniors) learn things that may be useful in the workplace, social life, etc.  Learning that some organizations may require you to modify your behavior or make sacrifices is a lesson I consider valuable, and something that seems to be less well-known these days.

Guess I'm a Square too...

[BlackKnight]

2. Drinking responsibly, and still enjoying the social function, is a very important lesson for young adults to learn... as long as the senior members are able to set the example.

That is EXACTLY how I view this also. 

As a DCC I have listened (OK, 'eavesdropped') while my cadets discussed senior officers and moderate alcohol consumption at wing conferences.  The "everything in responsible moderation" message is received very well and fits in with the other aspects of the CAP Cadet Leadership program that we're trying to teach- including Moral Leadership. The "Alcohol is a tool of the Devil" line doesn't get much traction unless the cadet's parents are already tee-totalers.  Seeing adults practicing what we preach, maintaining self control and military bearing is an extraordinarily powerful message.  Contrast the adult behaviours our cadets see at a wing conference social hour with your typical office Christmas party (or the drunk fans at almost any major sports event) and you'll see my point.  They do too.

With that said, America has been debating alcohol since the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth.   Most opinions are extremely strongly held. I doubt we'll change any of those via a CAPTalk thread. 

YMMV...

[mikeylikey]

With that said, America has been debating alcohol since the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth.   Most opinions are extremely strongly held. I doubt we'll change any of those via a CAPTalk thread. 

YMMV...

Yes, but most illegal drugs were legal up to the 1920's. Some as late as 1950's.  I have to debate that the pilgrims debated alcohol.  If my memory serves correctly, they brewed beer the very first year after they landed.  It has been a long practice to save the nutrition value of grains by making alcohol.  They would drink it during the winter months.  Somewhere drinking was labeled as "bad" and given a stigma.  I am no scholar, but there was no drinking age in this country until the 1900's.  Our ancestors seemed to get through life with alcohol available to everyone.  Why can't we? 

If we remove the temptation and illegality of underage drinking, then I bet we would see less binge drinking and alcohol related deaths in minors.

[BlackKnight]

I have to debate that the pilgrims debated alcohol.  If my memory serves correctly, they brewed beer the very first year after they landed.

Point conceded.  But I'll bet they debated whether they should keep offering it to the natives! 

Our ancestors seemed to get through life with alcohol available to everyone.  Why can't we? 

If we remove the temptation and illegality of underage drinking, then I bet we would see less binge drinking and alcohol related deaths in minors.

I completely agree. (But of course until then, the law is the law.)  Since you so brazenly reached out and grabbed onto the "third rail" of this topic, I figure you'd like some company while we both get electrocuted and run over.   

[mikeylikey]

^  Haha....I think I read in a national Geographic from the 1950's that American Indians can't hold their alcohol. 

We pushed this thread off topic just a little. 

Back on......DRINKING in front of a Cadet, bad......unless he bought you the drink??

OR..... Are there any wings out there that PROHIBIT ALL drinking at Wing activities?

[ZigZag911]

I don't know any wing that prohibits alcohol at all social events.

While there is an argument to be made for permitting cadets to see seniors use alcohol responsibly, I wonder if the designated driver issue alone ought to make us re-think the whole thing?

I've attended CAP banquets with mixed groups (seniors, & cadets, as well as military & civilian guests, cadets' parents, seniors' families) and have seen more than a few CAP officers consume too much alcohol.

At one memorable NJ Wing banquet there were toasts to the Commander in Chief, the USAF, & the Chief of Staff USAF....then others had to jump in with Marine & Coast Guard Commandants, Army COS....we knew it had gone too far when a thoroughly soused young major toasted "The Chief of Staff of the US Navy".

Which would have been nice if the Navy actually HAD an officer by that title!

Perhaps the time has come for CAP to 'go dry' at all events which include cadets....right up to the banquet at National Board meeting.

[NIN]

Designated driver issues are pretty few and far between, but they do happen. And people need to be responsible.

I went to conference one year, and several of us were bunking at a nearby hotel, but went to the conference hotel to visit upon our friends and share some, *ahem* libations (hospitality suite, among other things)

Aftewards, I'm in the lobby waiting to make the 2 mile drive over to the other hotel when a cadet from my buddy's unit comes up and says "Sir, you're supposed to drive us back to the other hotel.."

Now, I'm utterly uncomfortable talking to a cadet while I've had a couple, but there is no way in hell I'm giving anybody, let alone a cadet, a ride when I've had a couple.  Particularly when someone failed to pre-coordinate the transpo.

We got it straightened out, and the cadets got back to the other hotel without riding with someone who'd been drinking.  And the guy who told the cadets that they should ride with me got a nice talking to, as well.

[Skyray]

I guess I am pretty lucky, but in my days at Pensacola at the training command, if you found yourself impaired and away from your billet all you had to do was call the shore patrol and they would dispatch a car with an additional driver to drive your car home.  The first couple of times there were no repercussions.  I understand that they haven't had the manpower for this service for many years.