Social (drinking) functions around cadets

[Stonewall]

Don't know how we turned a gear discussion in the ES forum into a drinking discussion, but perhaps we should discuss this.

On more than a few occasions, I've been to CAP functions that hosted a social drinking hour either before or after the main event.  From wing conferences to award banquets, alcohol has been served to seniors in the presence of cadets more times than I can count and it seems okay.

Is this bad?  Should it be forbidden?  Is it cool as long as the cadets don't see you drink?

At one squadron, we met at the American Legion, a huge one.  Two stories with a bar on the ground floor.  While we met upstairs, our files and equipment locker were downstairs, requiring us to constantly walk through the smoke-filled bar area.  Obviously we restricted most cadets from going through there, but sometimes they had to.  Heck, even had a couple parents stay at the bar while their cadets were upstairs for two hours.  And of course, the Post Commander always gave us tokens for free drinks so we'd often find ourselves hanging out talking to the old time vets after the meeting.  The bad thing, I think, is when several of the seniors who had cadets in the squadron would stay, making their cadet sit in the bar watching seniors drink.  When this happened, I'd drink a coke and manage to "close it down" rather quickly, saying I had an early day the next day.

Thoughts?

[mikeylikey]

I look at it as........soon enough these Cadets (children) will be of drinking age.  If we demonstrate restraint and coach them on the benefits of a sober life, then we have done good.   I have no problem with alcohol being served at CAP functions.  I do have a problem with an Officer having more than 2 SOCIAL drinks.  2 beers in 3 hours is enough, as is 2 mixed drinks.  Anything more is excessive. 

[RogueLeader]

Last I checked, it IS forbidden, I forget where it is in the regs, but IIRC, it is there.

[Chaplaindon]

I for one believe it to be inappropriate for SMs to drink either in the presence of cadets or at cadet functions. Here's why ...

1.  It communicates a dangerous message that one needs to consume alcohol in order to socialize or have a "good time." Binge drinking by teens and young adults is an alarming epidemic, associating drink with socializing only encourages such behavior.

2.  It "normalizes" drinking ... helps remove any stigma that drinking might have. Frankly, I'd like to see much more stigma upon underage drinking and other youthful activities (e.g. sexuality, etc.).

3.  SMs at CAP functions have, at least, a tacit responsibility for our cadets. Drink will impede judgement and hurt one's ability to supervise.

4.  Excessive consumption of ETOH can lead to "conduct unbecoming" a SM and bring discredit upon the CAP and oneself.

5.  I would add too, that ETOH consumption renders the drinker incapable of operational response. I know of a WG conference during which a REDCAP came in and a sober flight crew ("8 hrs bottle to throttle") couldn't be found. That's shameful.

Sobriety, at least, at cadet functions and in the presence of cadets SHOULD be the rule.

[Flying Pig]

Alcohol has no place where cadets are present.  

[Skyray]

I'm going to have to weigh in with Aaron.  I donated my book of regs to an impoverished squadron, but I clearly remember a prohibition against drinking in the presence of cadets.  It is all well and good to speak of responsible drinking, but there are some members that seem incapable of it.  One Region Commander of my recollection was discussed extensively by the cadets on their return from Wing Conference, not only for his rather obvious impairment, but for his use of the n--- word in reference to some of them within their range of hearing.

[MIKE]

Don't know how we turned a gear discussion in the ES forum into a drinking discussion, but perhaps we should discuss this.

Unfortunately the posting populace here has a tendency to get a bit too chatty, and as such has difficulty staying on topic.

On the topic, don't most of the military uniform regs say you aren't to wear the uniform at establishments that primarily serve alcohol, or where you intend to just drink... But I don't think they go as far as to say you can't drink.

I'd have to check, but IIRC CAPR 52-16 does say that you shouldn't drink/smoke around cadets.

[mikeylikey]

Lets not forget, these Cadets have been exposed to drinking way before they ALL got involved with CAP.  Hell......turn on the television, open a newspaper, listen to the radio and there are hundreds of references to drinking.  Drinking is not the problem.  Failing to express upon these children what Alcohol can do to F up your life is.  

I still see no problem with alcohol at CAP functions.  We are all Officers (except for the NCO's), if we ACT like it, NO PROBLEMO!

[Stonewall]

In the army, at one unit, we had our own bar (lounge).  You'd always see uniforms in there, even during lunch.

Ironically, I think I've read more CAP regs than actual military regs, but if I remember correctly, I don't think it was an issue to go into a bar with a uniform on.  Granted, not sure why you'd wear BDUs, but I've seen my fair share of Class A's in a bar.  Heck, what about Officer and Enlisted clubs.  The whole purpose is to drink in uniform there.  

[mikeylikey]

On the topic, don't most of the military uniform regs say you aren't to wear the uniform at establishments that primarily serve alcohol, or where you intend to just drink...

No they say you can't were, BDU's, ACU's flight suits or field uniforms.  UNLESS you decide to go the O-Club, then you can.    

[MIKE]

1-3. h. Tobacco Products, Alcoholic Beverages & Illegal Drugs.
(1) CAP cadets, regardless of age, will not possess, chew, or consume tobacco products, nor will they possess or consume alcoholic beverages or illegal drugs, in any form, while participating in any CAP activity.
(2) Senior members should exercise discretion when drinking alcoholic beverages or using tobacco products at CAP activities when cadets are present. Seniors should avoid drinking alcohol or using tobacco at all times when they are directly working with cadets or when they are in a confined space with cadets. Additionally, seniors who are not working with cadets should avoid excessive alcohol consumption when they can reasonably expect to encounter cadets thereafter.
(3) Commanders may augment these rules as appropriate for specific situations, including, but not limited to, establishing designated smoking and non-smoking areas, or designating areas as "off-limits" to cadets.

[mikeylikey]

^  Key word is SHOULD.  It does not say "must not", "should not" or "will not".  I take that as "try to keep your drinking unseen", but if you happen to find yourself drinking in front of Cadets, "Oh well". 

That should be written to prohibit ALL drinking and Smoking.  Right???

[Walkman]

Considering I've been dry for about 15 years, I'd like to second ChaplainDon's post. I'd rather not have my son see an officer he respects drinking.

My .02¢ anyway.

[Major Lord]

I challenge anyone to list a National regulation prohibiting drinking alcohol during CAP Cadet activities ( Although it is safe to say that flight and vehicle regs may make some small mention of it) There is a regulation regarding providing alcohol or drugs to cadets, but since CAP is HQ'd in Alabama, they strangely omitted cigarettes from that reg..... This Reg is an "Urban Myth". While it may be a good idea, it is not the the rule or the law.

Cadets judge Senior Members on the strength and quality of their character, good or bad. If you feel that drinking ETOH in front of cadets may make you a drunken fool, or if you have any SM associates that fit this profile, you should limit their participation in Cadet programs.

I once saw a Senior Member drink and give alcohol to Cadets ( an RC Chaplain) but I don't remember his molesting any cadets or dancing on tabletops.....

Major Lord

[Chaplaindon]

I challenge anyone to list a National regulation prohibiting drinking alcohol during CAP Cadet activities ( Although it is safe to say that flight and vehicle regs may make some small mention of it) There is a regulation regarding providing alcohol or drugs to cadets, but since CAP is HQ'd in Alabama, they strangely omitted cigarettes from that reg..... This Reg is an "Urban Myth". While it may be a good idea, it is not the the rule or the law.

Cadets judge Senior Members on the strength and quality of their character, good or bad. If you feel that drinking ETOH in front of cadets may make you a drunken fool, or if you have any SM associates that fit this profile, you should limit their participation in Cadet programs.

I once saw a Senior Member drink and give alcohol to Cadets ( an RC Chaplain) but I don't remember his molesting any cadets or dancing on tabletops.....

Major Lord

The presence or absence of a regulation prohibiting (or, for that matter, authorizing) drinking in the presence of cadets should not be the final arbiter of the appropriateness of said activity. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean one SHOULD do it.

Based on the compliance-level of SMs regarding uniform regulations (well a manual that functions as a reg), a higher "calling" is needed. That would be a mature deliberate decision as to the circumstances at hand and whether drinking of alcohol is appropriate. I believe that is what CAPR 52-16 means by "exercise discretion."

On the other hand, your reference to a chaplain " ...give[ing] alcohol to Cadets ..." (at a CAP activity) is another situation entirely.

I would consider that unquestionably wrong, a violation of CPPT, and undoubtedly a violation of state law. And just because this chaplain didn't  "... molest any cadets (hopefully not a slur at a Roman Catholic cleric) or danc[e] on tabletops ...." doesn't make his actions right. I should hope that this individual was immediately removed from the CAP event and a CAPF-2b was executed.

If such actions were not taken, and SMs actually witnessed the act or were told of it by a principal in the event, then all involved SMs should be disciplined or 2b'd.

[mikeylikey]

I read an article on MSNBC.com last week that listed each state and their laws regarding drinking.  THERE is no federal law prohibiting minors from drinking!  However there are only 13 states to expressly forbid minors from drinking.  The other states have laws that basically say "minors can't buy alcohol, but may drink it in the presence of adults, or their spouses.  

Weird....right!

[JC004]

I read an article on MSNBC.com last week that listed each state and their laws regarding drinking.  THERE is no federal law prohibiting minors from drinking!  However there are only 13 states to expressly forbid minors from drinking.  The other states have laws that basically say "minors can't buy alcohol, but may drink it in the presence of adults, or their spouses. 

Weird....right!

The laws are pretty interesting.  All states have the 21-year old purchase laws, but consumption is another issue.  I had a great site on it once, but I can't seem to find it.  The 21 thing comes from the federal government promising to take away your highway funds if you lower the age below 21.  States can, however, and sometimes consider doing it.  I think NH was the last one that I saw...You can drink at 18 or 19 (depending on the province) in Canada anyway, plus, NH and VT don't really have any roads anyway.   

[Rube11]

Folks,

There is guidance in the CAP Directives regarding this subject:

Reference:  CAPR 52-16, 1 Oct 06

  h. Tobacco Products, Alcoholic Beverages & Illegal Drugs.
(1) CAP cadets, regardless of age, will not possess, chew, or consume tobacco products, nor will they possess or consume alcoholic beverages or illegal drugs, in any form, while participating in any CAP activity.
(2) Senior members should exercise discretion when drinking alcoholic beverages or using tobacco products at CAP activities when cadets are present. Seniors should avoid drinking alcohol or using tobacco at all times when they are directly working with cadets or when they are in a confined space with cadets. Additionally, seniors who are not working with cadets should avoid excessive alcohol consumption when they can reasonably expect to encounter cadets thereafter.
(3) Commanders may augment these rules as appropriate for specific situations, including, but not limited to, establishing designated smoking and non-smoking areas, or designating areas as "off-limits" to cadets.

There should not be any alcohol served at any training session at the unit level when cadets are participating.

OBTW:  I wholeheartedly disagree with the comment regarding Officer and Enlisted Clubs; "The whole purpose is to drink in uniform there."  Obviously you have not attended an officer's or enlisted call on an Active Duty AF Base.  Not all enlisted members or officers drink when they attend a function at either the the Officer's or Enlisted Clubs.  Of course we do have those folks who do not drink in moderation and get sh.. faced and eventually embarrass themselves.  Just like we do at CAP functions...

My 2 cents; forebid drinking at all training activities involving cadets and make the area "off limits" to cadets  when alcohol is served during conferences / awards banquets during the social hour!

Rube11

[Flying Pig]

So then your saying its up to you to teach my son/cadet about sober living? Why dont we just keep it out of CAP functions and leave it at that.  Cadets aren't going to learn anything by watching Seniors walk around the ballroom with a mixed drink in their hand.

[Rube11]

It's should be certain senior member's responsibility to teach cadets in their unit about drugs and alcohol and their impact, i.e., Morale Leadership Officer, DCC, Chaplain, etc., in conjunction with what is being taught at home by the parents! 

I would hope  that professional senior officers and NCOs could abstain from drinking at CAP Functions; however, some senior Field Grade CAP Officers get upset when people threaten to have an "alcohol free" conference, banquet, activity...this is why alcohol will always be served at National, Region and Wing conferences.

Best case scenario; zero alcohol when cadets are present.  I would hope professionals could attend a function involving cadets for 2-3 hours without a drink.

My personal opinion and $1.25 will buy you a cup of coffee!

Rube11