CAP Speculative Fiction

[RiverAux]

ES without CP? Cannot happen.

Frankly, cadets rarely play a significant role in ES in my Wing.  I'm not saying thats a good thing or a bad thing, its just the way it is. 

Their main role is as ground team members and most missions don't call for ground teams.  And when ground teams are needed, it is becoming more and more common to depend on other agencies to provide them because the other agency (usually a sheriffs office) has more jurisdiction, as well as the fact that we can rarely put more than 1 or 2 4-5 person teams on the ground, which usually isn't enough to make a difference.  Wish we had more ground team capacity, but we don't.

[antdetroitwallyball]

ES without CP? Cannot happen.

With all due respect, I fundamentally agree, and even though I'm only quoting this small comment, I did take the time to read through the rest of the posts.

I understand that CP and ES are in practice, heavily intertwined. However, I don't buy the argument that, without the presence of children, CAP is completely unable to provide emergency services. My experience is that in any real ES situation, use of children will be in a very limited capacity. Unless vast numbers of trained adult responders, CAP or otherwise, are suddenly immobilzed by some unforseen event, we as senior members are not dependent on having children assist us to be effective.

If this is truly CAP's model of conducting ES, then it is fundamentally flawed. Airplane crash scenes and searching for lost/wounded hikers who may be discovered dead  and working in disaster zones is not an appropriate job for children in any context. By all means, give the cadets exposure by allowing them to participate at the outskirts, but it would be irresponsible to put them in any position that could be potentially dangerous.

And, if we don't have enough qualified senior members to perform the low-level, behind-the-scenes functions of ES that would be acceptable for cadets to help out with, then CAP should get out of the business of ES.

By saying that CAP is unable to do effective ES without cadets, you are arguing that CAP is the only agency that I can think of that is dependent on having a child cadre to perform services of this nature.

I get that without cadet programs, many ES qualed seniors with leave/not participate, but what I am addressing is the perception that CAP's model of conducting ES missions is dependent on cadets. :redx:

At the end of the day, Cadets working in ES are an inherent liability, regardless of how helpfull they may be.

[SunDog]

ES without CP? Cannot happen.

but it would be irresponsible to put them in any position that could be potentially dangerous.

I'm not a CP guy, but I know we have them stomping through the woods and flying in light planes. Plenty of potential danger there, right?  They aren't supposed to be safe; just not exposed to unreasonable risk.  Not sure how and when this silly charade-safety mindset sprung up.  It's good to see it's getting a new light shown on it, at least in aviation now. . .

[Luis R. Ramos]

Children?

Are you mature or not? Anyone over 16 is not a child. They are Young Adults. Properly supervised, qualified young adults can be trusted. Even adults can be unreliable.

That's all I will say on this issue.

Flyer

[Ned]

Although I know the OP meant this as a legitimate thought experiment, as a practical matter it comes close to my personal definition of "trolling" because it will inevitably tend to set the ES and CP crowds against each other. 

Which is never helpful, and tends to reinforce a tendency in both camps of "us against them."


It is worth remembering that the Air Force has relatively little choice in the matter about how they support CAP in any event.  They follow the laws enacted by Congress just like the rest of us.  Love us or hate us, CAP and our colleagues at the USAF are going to remain working together for the forseable future for the benefit of all Americans.

CAP was created during a time of great need, and both the ES and CP missions (as well as AE) remain as critical to our nation now as they were in 1941.  Like any marriage, the relationship between the missions has good periods and less good periods.  But CAP would not be CAP without all three of our missions. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Although I know the OP meant this as a legitimate thought experiment, as a practical matter it comes close to my personal definition of "trolling" because it will inevitably tend to set the ES and CP crowds against each other. 

Colonel, I never, ever intended that.  I do not like trolling, but if I were to do it, it would be in a more overt fashion.  There is very little subtlety with me.

My intent was to be "what would CAP be like without the Air Force," period.  Nothing more, nothing less.

The only way CP (which I ardently support - I would only serve in cadet or composite squadrons as a matter of preference) came into it is because:

The Air Force does seem to like our CP, which is cool.  After all, even though we are not a recruiting organisation, many young people who have got into CAP and have excelled have gone on to distinguished careers in the Air Force (and other services) - Lieutenant Colonel Nicole Malachowski, first female Thunderbird and current CC of the 333d Fighter Squadron, F-15E training squadron, anyone?  Unfortunately, the flip side of that (which I have witnessed) is that some in the Air Force think that's all we're good for.  I have spoken at length about the State Director who visited my then-squadron and a good 95% of his talk was about cadets - the other 5% was about the only real reason seniors are there is to make sure the cadets get their Mitchell.  Had that been my first visit to CAP, I would not have joined.

Also, cadets do get benefits from the Air Force not available to seniors (unlike our counterparts in Canada, Australia and New Zealand).

Without the Air Force, there would be no CP, which was part of my point.

As well, I have personally known many who think we should be "all ES, all the time," who want nothing to do with CP or AE, and who really do not care about our association with the Air Force.

My scenario was depicting CAP as a completely autonomous, self-funded (by necessity) "all ES, all the time" unit with no military affiliation.

[lordmonar]

I still don't see you point "with out the USAF there would be NO CP".

Please explain.

[Private Investigator]

Like usual the fanboys and fangirls gather behind the ES or the CP banner. AE is left out 

[SunDog]

Same-same question from me, why is USAF critical to CAP's continued existence? 

If congress wants to keep us around, it doesn't have to be via USAF oversight. It probably makes some sense to have USAF do it, for sure, but FEMA, or DHS, or Coast Guard, or even FAA or the Interior could serve as well. Some pros, some cons, to each.  Nothing super-special about USAF oversight. . .probably just no compelling reason to change it, either, granted.

Not sure I'd describe CP and AE as "critical" to our country - probably not ES, either. Useful and helpful, sure  - "critical" oversells us.  Lot's of other players for CP (Scouting, etc.) and AE is kinda obsolete.  Lot of other ES players, as well, though air assets not nearly so cheap to operate.

CP participants are often ES folks too, so that tie is real;  lot of guys don't do CP, except O Flights, but don't have any heartbuurn with CP.  Just not their thing.

[Walkman]

I still don't see you point "with out the USAF there would be NO CP".

While I'm not sure I agree 100% with ByBorg's statement, I'd wager a major percentage of our cadets join initially because of the USAF affiliation and the uniform. Once they get in and get involved that can change, but that part of our identity is huge in recruiting cadets. Without that connection, we'd see a lot less teens interested, IMO.

COULD we still have a cadet program? Of course. BUT I think we'd have to do a ton of "rebranding" in order to create a strong enough identity that we could stand on our own.

And as for the connection between ES and CP, there are as many calm and collected 16 year-olds that can handle everything that a true ES mission can throw at them as there are 40 year olds that fold under pressure. Age isn't necessarily a predictor of ability. I'll give you that the life lessons learned and maturity gained by the time one becomes 40 should lead to that person being able to handle it, but not always.

[lordmonar]

I still don't see you point "with out the USAF there would be NO CP".

While I'm not sure I agree 100% with ByBorg's statement, I'd wager a major percentage of our cadets join initially because of the USAF affiliation and the uniform. Once they get in and get involved that can change, but that part of our identity is huge in recruiting cadets. Without that connection, we'd see a lot less teens interested, IMO.

COULD we still have a cadet program? Of course. BUT I think we'd have to do a ton of "rebranding" in order to create a strong enough identity that we could stand on our own.

And as for the connection between ES and CP, there are as many calm and collected 16 year-olds that can handle everything that a true ES mission can throw at them as there are 40 year olds that fold under pressure. Age isn't necessarily a predictor of ability. I'll give you that the life lessons learned and maturity gained by the time one becomes 40 should lead to that person being able to handle it, but not always.

We don't "need" the USAF's permission to have a USAF based Cadet Program.

IF.....IF the USAF dropped all support from us.......we could (at least on the CP side) just continue on.   Yes we would lose the NCSA funding, FCU funding, and O-ride funding....and maybe lose office space at military installations....but none of those things are deal stoppers for the cadet program as far as I can see.

Nothing......nothing as far as how we teach our cadets, what we teach our cadets or what draws our cadets to us would really change all that much.

[lordmonar]

Like usual the fanboys and fangirls gather behind the ES or the CP banner. AE is left out 

What's AE?   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

What sort of CP would we have without the AF affiliation and cadets not wearing the AF uniform?

Something like the BSA's ancient Air Explorers?

http://www.seniorscoutinghistory.org/seniorscoutsite/airexplorer.html

And I do not like - no joke - the insinuations that AE is supposedly finished, obsolete, etc.  It is not the same as it was in pre-internet days, no.  But it still exists.

It was a big part of why I joined.  My squadron has an AEO who is very hard-working; attends all the regional AE conferences etc.

[Eclipse]

Like usual the fanboys and fangirls gather behind the ES or the CP banner. AE is left out 

What's AE?   

The home of Storage Wars and Duck Dynasty!

[lordmonar]

What sort of CP would we have without the AF affiliation and cadets not wearing the AF uniform?

We don't need the USAF's permission for cadets to wear their uniform....go read title 10.

Something like the BSA's ancient Air Explorers?

You say that like a bad thing.......don't piss off your audience. 

And I do not like - no joke - the insinuations that AE is supposedly finished, obsolete, etc.  It is not the same as it was in pre-internet days, no.  But it still exists.

Sure it does......I just don't see a lot of it in my neck of the woods.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Something like the BSA's ancient Air Explorers?

You say that like a bad thing.......don't piss off your audience. 

Not meant that way at all.  I was a Cub Scout, Webelos and Boy Scout for almost 10 years.  I was a Senior Patrol Leader and Junior Assistant Scoutmaster.

I WISH the Air Explorers still existed when I was in (1970s).

[Private Investigator]

Like usual the fanboys and fangirls gather behind the ES or the CP banner. AE is left out 

What's AE?   

AE is for members who can not hang out with the 'high speed, low drag' ES folks and can not have 'pizza parties' due to IBS with the CP folks. 

[Private Investigator]

Like usual the fanboys and fangirls gather behind the ES or the CP banner. AE is left out 

What's AE?   

The home of Storage Wars and Duck Dynasty!

That brings up a good question, why does AE not have any the cool stuff from the NASA channel? 

[antdetroitwallyball]

Children?

Are you mature or not? Anyone over 16 is not a child.

Not sure how many 17 year olds you have around you in your personal life (family members, cadets, etc), but very few, IMHO, act very much like adults. The distiction must be made between capabilties and mindset. They have the capabilities of adults, but they simply lack an life experience living as one (an adult), and it's that experience that by in large, acts as a mediator of our decisions.

The law says a 16 is a child. Pyschologists say that most 16 year olds have the brain development correspondant with a 16 year old and not on the same level as a 20 year old. Look at driving records. The statistics are pretty clear. We should demand that 16 year olds begin to act like an adult, because we want them to become responsible adults. However, it is ignorance to think that their performance will actually be at the level of our demands. It's really not even their fault. Biological growth takes time.

Sure, some 16 year olds will be better off than 25 year olds. But not most of them. Not really sure why this is even a difficult concept.

We can properly supervise them all day long, but does that make it appropriate for them to be exposed to all situations?

I'm not a CP guy, but I know we have them stomping through the woods and flying in light planes. Plenty of potential danger there, right?  They aren't supposed to be safe; just not exposed to unreasonable risk.

I agree.

Not sure how and when this silly charade-safety mindset sprung up.

Lawsuits? I heard recently that back in the 90's, there was a question as to whether not the Cadet program would even continue due to insurance costs. I've also heard that 50% of my $65 annual dues goes strictly to paying for insurance. I heard this from a CAP LtCol who has something like 46+ years in CAP. Not sure if all of this is in fact true, but due to his extensive experience in CAP, I'm inclined to believe him until I hear otherwise.

  It's good to see it's getting a new light shown on it, at least in aviation now. . .

[Eclipse]

I don't think many here would disagree, but for the most part, when people make comments like that in a CAP context,
they are generally just trying to illicit a reaction from the reader.

In general we make a fair distinction between "children" and "cadets".

Cadets aren't "children", the expectation is higher, but they also aren't adults.

In no way do I ascribe to any nonsense that properly trained and attuned cadets are an ES liability.
Some of the sharpest ES people I've worked with have been cadets.