Commissioning Questions

[PHall]

Be happy you still have a manned aircraft mission. They could have gotten a UAV or even a non-flying mission!

It's too bad they lost the Vipers. They had an air defense role. They put a CAP over Chicago on 9-11. Flew right over my high school about 1430 that afternoon to get there. Scared the poop out of everyone until I pointed out that the sound was of Pratts in Vipers. Unfortunately, all but a handful of the 163rd FS/122nd TFW Vipers have been AMARC'd

Soon to be QF-16 Targets.

[flyboy53]

It's been 1994 since I wore a recruiter hubcap, so my advice to you may be a little skewed because some criteria has most certainly changed, but here it goes.

First, you never said what type of degree you are working toward, so I'm not sure why some of the guys offered things like NOAA or USPHS. Those commissioning opportunities are very limited and relate to health/medical or science career fields.

Second, the advice that you received is correct about the Army, because the Army -- espcially the National Guard -- will commission officers with associate degrees. Then you have to complete a bachelors degree while still a lieutenant in order to be promoted beyond the rank of captain. Most of the people in this program are infantry or special forces officers.

The Air Force Reserve used to commission nurses with associate degrees and chaplains with a total of 120 sememster hours of college credit. The reason why the difference is because chaplains were recommended from by asponsoring faith conference, hold a grade of second or first lieutenant while in seminary, and then are appointed to captain when they graduate from seminary.

You may not know that nurses, doctors, physician assistants, nurse practitioners, and lawyers are not commissioned in the Air Force, they're appointed.

That said, the last time I heard a cut off age of 29 was for those candidates who were seeking rated or missile duty. You may want to go back to the recruiter and see if that is the general age cut off for everything or just rated duty. You may want to select non-rated, and go for something like Security Forces, SERE, TACP, or Combat Comptroller, if those opportunities exist and you are thinking about something combat related.

Third, any program that you chose -- with the exception of the Army National Guard -- is going to require you to enlist in the grade of E-3 or E-4, and serve as an enlisted man. complete the degree, and then apply for commissioning. Things like direct to OTS or OCS are going to require a degree first. The Air Force Reserve would take enlisted applicants from the field and grant commissions once they have completed the AFR/ANG Officer Preparatory Course (which by the way was almost the same exact course as the old ECI CAP Officer Course) and met all of the other commissioning requirements.

No one mentioned the Marine Corps. The USMC used to have the Platoon Leader Program were you were enlisted as a Reseve E-4/E-5, continued in college but served during summer, and were commissioned a second lieutenant

So, at this stage of the game, things like ROTC are out of the picture and you are left with those opportunities like OTS or OCS which are going to require a degree first; a state National Guard Military Academy; or things like Marion Military Academy were you attend a junior college and are actually commissioned a National Guard second lieutenant.

One other thing to know is that all of the military services can be very selective and you will need to ask yourself the question of what is your ultiamte goal. In my own case, I turned down an Army commission and entered the Air Force as an enlisted man. I was actually a slick sleeve with a bachelor's degree and I found myself first in security forces (which I never regretted). I applied for commissioning three times. The first time, I was turned down because I had a non-technical degree. The second time, I was turned down because I was returning from overseas after a tour that involved exposure to top secret and extremely sensitive information (the real Cold War) and was actually barred from pograms like OTS because of some sort of security regulation that I can't quote now. By the third time, I was simply too old.

I left active duty, entered the Air Force Reserve as a Palace Front assignment, completed a masters degree, and was actually recalled to active duty for another seven and a half years, ending my career as a master sergeant. Do I regret never being commissioned, not really. There's a lot more prestige among the senior NCO Corps; and at that stage of the game, I found myself having to babysit brand new second lieuteants (I can tell you some interesting stories), and I began to resent that those same junior officers started their careers with an attitude that looked down upon even senior NCOs...especially a senior NCO with more education and experience.

That was personal and not meant to disuade you from your goals. I'm just trying to be realistic with you, so you may need to re-evaluate your goals and shop around for that program that best fits your goals...then be prepared, it may not be the Air Force, and you may be required to consider a really gutsy program that will test you to your limits in order to achieve that "butter bar."

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Over the last few years (and Safety Officer /Asst Chief Instructor Pilot at the Maxwell AFB Aero Club), I have talked with more than a few USAF types being given a choice between Blue to Green (transferring to the Army) or hitting the street.  However, I have met very few Army types that were able to transfer into the USAF.
In my 24 years active duty (Army), I recall a section in the enlistment contract that clearly states that the needs of the service must be met and all promises or guarantees can be waived to meet the needs of the service.  Important enough that we were aked to initial that line and state we understood it.

[coudano]

Guard AMS, and *NCOA are still at McGhee Tyson.

So what I meant to say here was Guard ALS (airman leadership school)
Simple typo.
but it could also be the same mistake your recruiter made.

[lordmonar]

This is all a sign of the time.

The USAF is downsizing.....
The Economy sucks......
Recruiters are meeting their quotas....

This all means that they are closing up the window of accessions.

I have a Cadet who graduated last year...he tried to join the Marines....the recruiter told him they are ONLY allowed to recruit from high school seniors and prior enlisted.

It sucks...but that's the way it is.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The USAF is downsizing.....

In some ways...in terms of fighter-interceptor units, which is a bad thing.  The F-22 has been capped, and the F-35 seems like the airplane that is always just out of reach.  Stripping so many Guard units of their fighter-interceptor role (Illinois, Missouri, Indiana, Michigan, New York) and either re-roling them to attack units with upgraded A-10's (Indiana's 122nd, Michigan's 127th), nonflying missions (Indiana's 181st, Kansas' 184th) or RPV (New York's 174th) is a very bad idea.  There may be no more USSR, but that does not mean we don't need air defence.  Emphasis seems to be on the A-10 because of Afghanistan, and as much as I like the bird (a buddy of mine bent wrenches on them at DMAFB for several years), it is not a fighter (I don't understand calling units flying the Hog "fighter" units; there used to be A/OA-10 units called Tactical Air Support Squadrons, which is much more accurate) and would not be capable of NORAD operations.  The F-16 is still being built for overseas operators (up to Block 60 now) and can still match or beat most of what the "bad guys" would have.  There are F-16ADF's mothballed at AMARC designed for air defence that have relatively few flying hours and could be put back into service.

There is an increasing emphasis on airlift; hey, ya gotta have it, so no gripes there.

The Economy sucks......

No argument there.

Recruiters are meeting their quotas....

A lot of the waivers that the military put in (mostly the Army, I think?) for recruits have now been rescinded, which makes it not at all easy to get in.  I would think the Marines and Coast Guard to be especially hard, since they are so small.

I have a Cadet who graduated last year...he tried to join the Marines....the recruiter told him they are ONLY allowed to recruit from high school seniors and prior enlisted.

High school seniors and not graduates?  Maketh no sense whatsoever, since there is no guarantee that a HS senior will complete that senior year and obtain a diploma.

Are the Marines the only service taking prior enlisted?  I've heard that the other ones have pretty much ruled that out, though of course I don't know for sure.

In any case, no matter how much prior service you have, you still have to go to Marine Boot Camp.

It sucks...but that's the way it is.

A word of truth.

[sandman]

It's been 1994 since I wore a recruiter hubcap, so my advice to you may be a little skewed because some criteria has most certainly changed, but here it goes.

First, you never said what type of degree you are working toward, so I'm not sure why some of the guys offered things like NOAA or USPHS. Those commissioning opportunities are very limited and relate to health/medical or science career fields.

Please read the discussions on page one. Hint: BS in management.

Second, the advice that you received is correct about the Army, because the Army -- espcially the National Guard -- will commission officers with associate degrees. Then you have to complete a bachelors degree while still a lieutenant in order to be promoted beyond the rank of captain. Most of the people in this program are infantry or special forces officers.

True for some job specialties. For example, Reserve Registered Nurse, Check it out here

The Air Force Reserve used to commission nurses with associate degrees and chaplains with a total of 120 sememster hours of college credit. The reason why the difference is because chaplains were recommended from by asponsoring faith conference, hold a grade of second or first lieutenant while in seminary, and then are appointed to captain when they graduate from seminary.

You may not know that nurses, doctors, physician assistants, nurse practitioners, and lawyers are not commissioned in the Air Force, they're appointed.

Wait....what?
So all of us officers who received appointments to staff positions, command billets, appointments as general officers (see article: LTG Horoho, Army Nurse, appointed as Army's 43rd Surgeon General ) are somehow not really commissioned? Explain please.

No one mentioned the Marine Corps. The USMC used to have the Platoon Leader Program were you were enlisted as a Reseve E-4/E-5, continued in college but served during summer, and were commissioned a second lieutenant

Well said. A very good choice indeed. The Warrant Officer program ("Gunner" vs. E-7 "Gunny") is a great commissioning route to consider as well.

I left active duty, entered the Air Force Reserve as a Palace Front assignment, completed a masters degree, and was actually recalled to active duty for another seven and a half years, ending my career as a master sergeant. Do I regret never being commissioned, not really. There's a lot more prestige among the senior NCO Corps; and at that stage of the game, I found myself having to babysit brand new second lieuteants (I can tell you some interesting stories), and I began to resent that those same junior officers started their careers with an attitude that looked down upon even senior NCOs...especially a senior NCO with more education and experience.

That was personal and not meant to disuade you from your goals. I'm just trying to be realistic with you, so you may need to re-evaluate your goals and shop around for that program that best fits your goals...then be prepared, it may not be the Air Force, and you may be required to consider a really gutsy program that will test you to your limits in order to achieve that "butter bar."

Thanks for your service Master Sergeant. Please review the commissioning requirements for the NOAA Corps and the USPHS so that you might offer a more informed opinion to individuals seeking service opportunities. There are more opportunities than you might think.

[JK657]

If you have questions about the Army National Guard route I'd be happy to answer them either here or via PM. I enlisted in the Guard, finished my BA and then went to OCS. There are some good websites that can give you a lot of information.

[SAR-EMT1]

Well, the first question I have is related to my degree - BS in Management- I will be minoring in healthcare admin and was wondering about the commissioning process:

The recruiter is spoke with currently plans on my doing 8-10 week BMT first (prior to attending classes for the BS)  followed by State OCS during college- 1 weekend a month for 18 months, followed by OBC - Infantry- after graduation.

But as mentioned here... I am kind of old to be an Infantry platoon leader (will be 28 when I graduate/commission)

Now I know the guard has positions in the Medical Corps for Healthcare Admin. Would this be an eligible alternative to the Infantry track or would it even be possible for me to directly commission into the Medical Corps upon graduation? - Without needing BMT before I return to school...

I am aware some folks here have suggested UPHS and NOAA Corps. Those are attractive programs, however at present I am focused on getting into a military service.

[bosshawk]

SAR EMT1: just a minor point of correction.  In the Army, you would commission into the Medical Service Corps, not the Medical Corps.  Only MDs and other sorts of doctors can commission in the Medical Corps.  Dentists into the Dental Corps, Veterarians into the Vetinary Corps(any I missed?).

MSC is the support arm of the Army medical endeavor.  In fact, MSC used to have helicopter pilots who flew the Dustoff mission.  I suspect that those folks are now branched Aviation.  A good friend of mine, MG Patrick Brady, MOH VN, was an MSC pilot.

[sandman]

SAR EMT1: just a minor point of correction.  In the Army, you would commission into the Medical Service Corps, not the Medical Corps.  Only MDs and other sorts of doctors can commission in the Medical Corps.  Dentists into the Dental Corps, Veterarians into the Vetinary Corps(any I missed?).

MSC is the support arm of the Army medical endeavor.  In fact, MSC used to have helicopter pilots who flew the Dustoff mission.  I suspect that those folks are now branched Aviation.  A good friend of mine, MG Patrick Brady, MOH VN, was an MSC pilot.

Army MEDEVAC pilots are still MSC (67J Aeromedical Evacuation) officers: See this link and this link.

Other medical corps branches: Army Nurse Corps and Army Medical Specialist Corps.

I still say stay with your education and go for Masters in Healthcare Administration. Sure you want military service, I understand. Just be aware that fellow officers in the US Public Health Service are serving downrange with various military branches and are augmenting many stateside units. There are service opportunities in the USPHS that work alongside the military.

A BS with a focus in healthcare management brings to mind another suggestion: apply to the Interservice Physician's Assistant Program through the Active, Reserve, National Guard (Army or Air Force) or Active or Reserve Navy and US Coast Guard. You'll certainly be downrange directly integrated with combat units including SF/Ranger support. Just throwing it out there...

In any case, good luck with your career choice and thanks for your continued interest in military service.

Cheers!

[A.Member]

JMHO, but no matter what you choose, if it's one of those "enlist now commission later" deals, be absolutely 100% certain that you read and understand ALL of the fine print in your enlistment contract.  If there is something you are unsure of, it's better to pay a lawer a couple hundred dollars to go through it with you, than be locked into an enlisted contract because of "the needs of the service" when you joined to be an officer.

QFT...and let me be blunt and one up, Al, if he doesn't mind...

If you want to be an officer, go in as an officer.  Period. 

Do not go in thinking you'll transition up or holding on to some other story.  Start at OTS/OCS.

One of squadron members joined the Guard under a similar program as described by the OP (enlist, finish school, go to OCS).  Problem is, he never got to OCS.   The Guard is very political and, right wrong or other (I say wrong), they never got him there.   Now, he tried to push the issue as much as he could but keep in mind it's a delicate line to walk.  Once commissioned, those people you may've had to push or hurdle, may now be subordinates or elsewhere in your chain of command...and that can make for "interesting" dynamics, especially in the Guard. 

Just something to keep in mind.

[coudano]

Soon to be QF-16 Targets.

I wonder how recoverable a viper will be, after taking a hit and a splash...

[SARDOC]

One of squadron members joined the Guard under a similar program as described by the OP (enlist, finish school, go to OCS).  Problem is, he never got to OCS.   The Guard is very political and, right wrong or other (I say wrong), they never got him there.   Now, he tried to push the issue as much as he could but keep in mind it's a delicate line to walk.  Once commissioned, those people you may've had to push or hurdle, may now be subordinates or elsewhere in your chain of command...and that can make for "interesting" dynamics, especially in the Guard. 

I didn't know we were in the same unit?!?

This is my story almost to a tee.  I joined the Guard with the purpose of going to their state OCS.  After I swore in, I found out how political the Guard was and because I was not there for a given period of time It wasnt fair to those who had dedicated more time in the Guard, The following year they didn't have money and didn't host an OCS.  I tried to get a conditional release to go back to the navy reserve and mobilize for deployment, my request went all the way to the TAG...My request was denied and a Colonel came to meet me in person and told me that "They were going to make me happy in the Guard"  So I finished my enlistment and would never recommend the guard to anyone.  The Guard effectively ended my military career.

[PHall]

Soon to be QF-16 Targets.

I wonder how recoverable a viper will be, after taking a hit and a splash...

Usually they get pretty good number of sorties out of the airframes before they put it on a sortie where live missiles are used.

Most missions are flown against training missiles. Live seeker, no explosives. The AQMI pods score the kills.

[tsrup]

Well said. A very good choice indeed. The Warrant Officer program ("Gunner" vs. E-7 "Gunny") is a great commissioning route to consider as well.

Marine Warrants require at a minimum 8 years enlistment and E-5.

Administrative warrants are more restrictive.

[sandman]

Well said. A very good choice indeed. The Warrant Officer program ("Gunner" vs. E-7 "Gunny") is a great commissioning route to consider as well.

Marine Warrants require at a minimum 8 years enlistment and E-5.

Administrative warrants are more restrictive.

Correct. Only suggested this as an initial enlistment followed by seeking a commission was alluded to. Similar circumstances for WO commission in Navy and Coast Guard. Interestingly, the USPHS is working on a WO program as well. Haven't heard much from OCCO about that recently though, hmmm...

[tsrup]

I still stand by the advice:

If you want a commission, go for the commission.

Anybody who says, "enlist first..."  or "enlisting first will make you a better officer.." doesn't have your best interests in mind.

Plus nobody wants the Private/Airman/Seaman that's constantly on about being at OCS in four years (not saying that's you) because you will have a job to do and remain qualified in.

[JK657]

Here's how it works:

You "enlist" in the Army Guard. When you sign your contract there will actually be a paragraph on your contract saying: "I am signing up as an Officer Candidate. If I fail to complete OCS I will have the option of discharge or staying in or going to AIT and being enlisted". (thats not word for word but you get the idea)

Your MOS will be: 09S-Commissioned Officer Candidate

Usually your branch of service (infantry, MP, etc) won't be confirmed until right before, during or after OCS. Each state does it different. I could be based on openings, abilities, etc.

Expect that if you want to be an Infantry Officer you will have to be Ranger qualified. That has pretty much become the standard. There are exceptions but that is what I am seeing.

Here is a great website run be experts on the topic:http://www.armyocsng.com/portal/index.php

Do not be afraid of "enlisting" to go to OCS. The program is already in place and there are checks and balances to ensure you aren't getting messed over by an shady recruiter. I entered this program at 28 years old. I was not thrilled that I had to go to Basic Training but in the end I was so glad I did. I was never truly "enlisted" but the experiences I got at BCT were amazing and definitely put me ahead of my ROTC peers.

I am currently wrapping up a deployment in the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan as a Military Police Platoon leader who 4 years ago was in your exact same shoes. It can be done!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Just be aware that fellow officers in the US Public Health Service are serving downrange with various military branches and are augmenting many stateside units. There are service opportunities in the USPHS that work alongside the military.

Especially the U.S. Coast Guard.  I think the USPHS provides all of the medical care for the USCG, and they wear "hybrid" uniforms when attached to the CG: CG uniform with USPHS insignia (Navy Chaplains do the same thing).  What else they do with the military I don't know, but I know they also provide personnel for Federal Prisons, Native American Reservations, CDC and NOAA.

The USPHS Warrant Officer corps is something that they've been talking about for a long time, but to my knowledge no-one has been appointed.  That was/is something they were looking at for people with two-year associate degrees in a health/science field; i.e., LPNs, psych technicians, health care administration, etc., from what I read a few years ago.  I'm  not sure what the current status of that is.