Cadets in Oct.-Dec. 2010 "Volunteer"

[RobertAmphibian]

From the draft 52-16:

2-11. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any devices that could be used as
weapons at cadet activities. The only exceptions to this policy are:
      a. Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an
honor guard or color guard. A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or
the firing of a weapon. A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition.
      b. Firearm Training. Cadets may participate in firearm training if the wing commander
approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing. For
additional guidance, see CAPR 900-3, Firearms: Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials. Training
must be sponsored and supervised by military personnel qualified as range officers or range safety
officers; local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors; or National Rifle Association,
National Skeet Shooting Association, or Amateur Trap Shooting Association firearms instructors.
      c. Paint Ball & Simunitions. Due to liability, public image, and safety considerations, paintball
is not authorized as a stand-alone CAP activity. However, to maximize career orientation opportunities,
cadets may participate in paint ball or simunition-type (force-on-force marking cartridge) training
activities hosted by a law enforcement agency or military unit, following the guidelines listed in
paragraph 2-10. During these activities, cadets must wear protective equipment to include, at a minimum,
head and face protection, plus any additional gear required by the host agency. Throughout the event,
cadets must be under the direct supervision of a non-participating senior member.

[HGjunkie]

Too bad it's only a draft and in no way is it official documentation.

[Major Carrales]

I don't like playing "skirt the regs" so when cadets mention paintball I usually encourage them to form a team separate from the squadron and play it as a non-squadron activity, simply using members that happen to be in a squadron.  Plus, I don't want to use funds to maintain squadron paintball gear which would be better spent outfitting new cadets, maintaining squadron ES gear or maintaining  a local "squadron store" were cadets can get things they need without the wait and hassle of mail order. 

As for Airsoft, we considered getting two Airsoft rifles to simulate the real things on the Color Guard, however, it was cost prohibitive and then we thought better of it.

[Eclipse]

Too bad it's only a draft and in no way is it official documentation.

+1 this is still out for comment. 

At the point it is ever approved, which is a horrible idea, we can just deny the activity requests and move on with our lives...

[JohnKachenmeister]

I don't like playing "skirt the regs" so when cadets mention paintball I usually encourage them to form a team separate from the squadron and play it as a non-squadron activity, simply using members that happen to be in a squadron.  Plus, I don't want to use funds to maintain squadron paintball gear which would be better spent outfitting new cadets, maintaining squadron ES gear or maintaining  a local "squadron store" were cadets can get things they need without the wait and hassle of mail order. 

As for Airsoft, we considered getting two Airsoft rifles to simulate the real things on the Color Guard, however, it was cost prohibitive and then we thought better of it.

You don't like playing "Skirt the Regs" so you organize a shadow organization outside the regs?  What's that?  "Pantylinering the Regs?"

[a2capt]

It's really not easy to control what a group of people does outside of the organization, just because they are part of the organization does not mean they can't partake in activities that the organization itself deems improper on liability grounds.

Telling them to go do it, as a non-unit activity isn't skirting the regs. Organizing it on unit time, finding ways to apply euphemisms to things... But stating "we can't support that as a CAP activity, you are however free to arrange it amongst yourselves.".

[Major Carrales]

I don't like playing "skirt the regs" so when cadets mention paintball I usually encourage them to form a team separate from the squadron and play it as a non-squadron activity, simply using members that happen to be in a squadron.  Plus, I don't want to use funds to maintain squadron paintball gear which would be better spent outfitting new cadets, maintaining squadron ES gear or maintaining  a local "squadron store" were cadets can get things they need without the wait and hassle of mail order. 

As for Airsoft, we considered getting two Airsoft rifles to simulate the real things on the Color Guard, however, it was cost prohibitive and then we thought better of it.

You don't like playing "Skirt the Regs" so you organize a shadow organization outside the regs?  What's that?  "Pantylinering the Regs?"

No, No...my dear friend, you misunderstand, in terms of that, I organize nothing.  Cadets can organize activities during their non-CAP "off hours..." that is any activity their parents will allow or condone.  Many of the cadets we have are friends outside the unit.  So long as they are doing legal things together, it is my understanding that it is not my duty to be shadowing them.  Unless being a cadet means you cannot ever participate in Paintball activities?

[jimmydeanno]

There's even a way to go play paintball and airsoft, if you'd like, listed in it.

Paintball and airsoft are explicitly prohibited.

Currently.  However, I can't think of anything that was in the previous draft 52-16 that didn't get approved previously.  The draft was crafted with the inputs of the National Cadet Advisor, Cadet Programs Directorate at NHQ, and several other CP "experts."  The National Board usually does a pretty good job of listening to the practical recommendations from these folks, I can't imagine that anything in there would cause an uproar at the NB meeting coming up.

Either way, my point was that the cadet program isn't as "mamby-pamby" as everyone makes it out to be.  It's typically local leaders creating their own twisted interpretation of the regulations because they don't want to put the effort in to do "cool things."

I've taken cadets hiking in 80+mph winds in -40F degree weather with 10 foot visibility because we were in the clouds.  I've done obstacle courses, ropes courses, water survival, marksmanship, PT challenges, rappelling, helicopter flights, wilderness survival, etc, all without "bubble-wrap." 

So, I really don't understand where this "national won't let us because the lawyers..." crap comes from.  The "high-adventure activities" section of the draft 52-16 was put in there to remind cadet program leaders that challenge and these high-adventure activities are in fact a necessary part of the cadet program.  Other than a way to do paintball and airsoft, etc there isn't anything "new" in terms of the types of activities that cadets *should* be participating in anyway.

[Eclipse]

There's even a way to go play paintball and airsoft, if you'd like, listed in it.

Paintball and airsoft are explicitly prohibited.

Currently.  However, I can't think of anything that was in the previous draft 52-16 that didn't get approved previously.

Point taken, but there isn't much point in arguing over something that isn't allowed.  It could be 5 years before the revision is published.

[RADIOMAN015]

I don't like playing "skirt the regs" so when cadets mention paintball I usually encourage them to form a team separate from the squadron and play it as a non-squadron activity, simply using members that happen to be in a squadron.

I don't think it's a good idea to encourage cadets to do anything on their own.  They are likely to tell their parents they are going with some other CAP cadets to a paint ball activity.  IF an injury occurs you likely are going to be getting the call since in the parents mind in is a CAP activity.

Also from a CAP senior/adult standpoint -- it's another land mine activity to stay away from IF ANY cadet is involved.  IF you are participating and something happens, again you are going to be drawn into this as a CAP member (regardless of what you think, based upon perception of the cadets parents).   Generally it's logical for senior members to support "sanctioned" CAP activities.  When you go out of that sanctioned 'box' you are asking for a problem that might cost you some time & money.
RM 

[a2capt]

We as a nation are not going to make another 225 years with this paranoid, hands off, approach- letting insurance companies and lawyers run the country, forcing us at every step of the way, to ask mother may I.

[HGjunkie]

Like I say,

"Political correctness and lawyers are going to drive our country into the ground".

[Flying Pig]

I didnt realize I had been quoting you all these years. :clap:

[HGjunkie]

I didnt realize I had been quoting you all these years. :clap:

[manfredvonrichthofen]

All cadets must wear helmet and knee and elbow pads, with wrist guards.

Why in the world are some members trying to take experiences away from the cadets? So what? they wore facepaint. Just wear it in the proper method. Green around the eyes and under the ckeek bones and on the forehead with black on the nose chin and cheek bones. This was evidently training that was just made a little more fun. If adding face paint and things of the sort allows for a little more fun and a feeling of team cohesion, then what is the big issue? I agree, maybe they shouldn't have put it in the volunteer, but oh well. No one else higher had a problem with it so why do you? Heck I know a few SMs that would do it around here with the cadets so that the cadets feel that we were in this with them, not just in this over them.

[Major Carrales]

I don't like playing "skirt the regs" so when cadets mention paintball I usually encourage them to form a team separate from the squadron and play it as a non-squadron activity, simply using members that happen to be in a squadron.

I don't think it's a good idea to encourage cadets to do anything on their own.  They are likely to tell their parents they are going with some other CAP cadets to a paint ball activity.  IF an injury occurs you likely are going to be getting the call since in the parents mind in is a CAP activity.

Also from a CAP senior/adult standpoint -- it's another land mine activity to stay away from IF ANY cadet is involved.  IF you are participating and something happens, again you are going to be drawn into this as a CAP member (regardless of what you think, based upon perception of the cadets parents).   Generally it's logical for senior members to support "sanctioned" CAP activities.  When you go out of that sanctioned 'box' you are asking for a problem that might cost you some time & money.
RM

I'll keep that in mind, once parents determine what is and what is not a CAP activity.  My point, which many of you are going out of your way to misunderstand, it that if cadets want to do paintball, they need to find it outside of CAP.   

There are a plethora places outside of CAP where they can do this...paintball clubs, other outdoor groups and the like.  I am not going to tell them they cannot go paintballing, I am going to point them away from doing it in CAP.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm still trying to digest "Cadets should not do anything on their own."  How are we gonna stop them?

[HGjunkie]

I don't like playing "skirt the regs" so when cadets mention paintball I usually encourage them to form a team separate from the squadron and play it as a non-squadron activity, simply using members that happen to be in a squadron.

I don't think it's a good idea to encourage cadets to do anything on their own.  They are likely to tell their parents they are going with some other CAP cadets to a paint ball activity.  IF an injury occurs you likely are going to be getting the call since in the parents mind in is a CAP activity.

Also from a CAP senior/adult standpoint -- it's another land mine activity to stay away from IF ANY cadet is involved.  IF you are participating and something happens, again you are going to be drawn into this as a CAP member (regardless of what you think, based upon perception of the cadets parents).   Generally it's logical for senior members to support "sanctioned" CAP activities.  When you go out of that sanctioned 'box' you are asking for a problem that might cost you some time & money.
RM

[Eclipse]

Not to mention that parents do not "determine what is or isn't a CAP activity".

it either is, or it isn't.  A distracted/confused/misinformed parent's understanding isn't really relevant.

[Major Carrales]

I'm still trying to digest "Cadets should not do anything on their own."  How are we gonna stop them?

We don't, if they want to go paintballing on their own dime and time, their parents let them and its not at a CAP activity we don't apply and could no more stop it than we could prevent them from watching cartoons.