Cadets in Oct.-Dec. 2010 "Volunteer"

[Senior]

On Page 12, in the bottom left corner, a picture of cadets in military
face paint appears.  It is for a CAP competition, but I don't get the
face paint.  

[Eclipse]

What is there to "get"?  The cadets like to put it on as part of team spirit, I'm not a big fan of stuff like that, but I don't see it as a big deal.

This activity takes place in my AOR - it is basically a series of teamwork challenges and none of the activities could be remotely construed as
"combat training", etc.

Were this on a military base, or involved some sort of arms or tactics training, I'd have an issue, but as it stands...

[Senior]

I find it interesting that folks on this blog go crazy about uniform violations, that some gear looks "to military" or complain about
bling and ranger programs, but it is okay to put a picture of cadets
in a national publication with face paint that is used for one purpose and one purpose only(concealment in military training).
That is what I don't "get" Eclipse.   

[JohnKachenmeister]

Is there something inherently immoral about camouflage?  If they can learn the military traditions of close-order drill and saluting, why can't they learn life-saving survival skills like camouflage?

My only beef about it is that it appears to be applied wrong.  Too even.  The high-shine areas of the face need to be darker.

[Eclipse]

I find it interesting that folks on this blog go crazy about uniform violations, that some gear looks "to military" or complain about
bling and ranger programs, but it is okay to put a picture of cadets
in a national publication with face paint that is used for one purpose and one purpose only(concealment in military training).That is what I don't "get" Eclipse.

Demonstrating the difference between actual problems and someone trying to make hay out of a non-problem.
Few folks with common sense have an issue with our cadets looking too "military", whatever that means considering
that CAP is a paramilitary program that shares a heritage and a uniform with a military service.

What is generally the issue is cadets portrayed doing something which is outside our core mission(s), or legitimate, actual, Bona Fide uniform violations, of which this is neither.

This is cadets having a good time participating in a wholly appropriate activity and being a little silly while doing it - occasionally we accidentally allow some fun, I don't personally see the appeal of enjoying one's self, but Kay and Sarah.

I will grant you the point that this is the type of photo that could be misinterpreted by someone looking to misinterpret it.   I would not personally have posted it in the Volunteer, but clearly the folks at NHQ had no issue with the appearance, and since it doesn't violate a single CAP reg...

[Senior]

John K.  I agree that the camo has been applied incorrectly.  They appear to be using the ACU colors and in the straight streaks popularized by Hollywood.  Light color camo around the eyes, dark camo on the forehead, and cheek, chin, blend in bloches.
   
Eclipse, I am not making hay, that is the job of a chopper, rake and baler.  I have read post on this blog that members were told that their SAR equipment looks to much like Rambo at mission bases.  We
don't allow members to have exposed fixed blade knives in the sheath at crash sights.  My point is this, a picture is worth a thousand words, if it appears in our national publication and a prospective cadet sees the picture then they think "kewl Rambo stuff".  Lets have some unity in thought and message we are sending to the public.  I am glad the cadets are out and about but I feel it was the wrong use of a photo.   

[JayT]

Eclipse, I am not making hay, that is the job of a chopper, rake and baler.  I have read post on this blog that members were told that their SAR equipment looks to much like Rambo at mission bases.  We don't allow members to have exposed fixed blade knives in the sheath at crash sights.  My point is this, a picture is worth a thousand words, if it appears in our national publication and a prospective cadet sees the picture then they think "kewl Rambo stuff".  Lets have some unity in thought and message we are sending to the public.  I am glad the cadets are out and about but I feel it was the wrong use of a photo.

There's a big difference between a fixed blade knife at a crash site (real world) and some face paint at some field day type of thing. If I show up to work with a fixed knife or ASP or baton on my belt, that's gonna give patients and other medics the wrong impression, and may be dangerous for me.

First off, the emergency service mission is only part of CAP's mission. It doesn't mean that everything CAP does should be soaked with ES related stuff. Military type stuff is perfectly acceptable in a paramilitary cadet program.

However, someone showing up to something with a K-Bar hung upside down off their suspenders is a different thing entirely.

[Senior]

Wow.  The fixed blade reference is from the ground team task manual.  I take from the manual that you can't have a fixed blade knife in a sheath anywhere visible on your person.  That is fine since
we aren't involved in close quarter fighting.  I was asking a simple question regarding the picture in the "Volunteer" because someone
here may have had first hand knowledge of the activity.  I am done.   

[SarDragon]

Well, the member who took the pic is a CT member, Bluelakes 13. Why don't you PM him?

[FARRIER]

Read the article and looked at the picture. I didn't see any issues or misconceptions.

Respectfully,

[lordmonar]

Wow.  The fixed blade reference is from the ground team task manual.  I take from the manual that you can't have a fixed blade knife in a sheath anywhere visible on your person.  That is fine since
we aren't involved in close quarter fighting.  I was asking a simple question regarding the picture in the "Volunteer" because someone
here may have had first hand knowledge of the activity.  I am done.

You need to read the manual again.

Nothing says you can't have them...only that they can't be openly displayed while doing crash site security duties.

As for the Camo Face paint........cadets like it....it is real rambo stuff.  They like the BDUs and the Full Metal Jacket in your face encampments too.

Some things we allow and some things we don't.

[RADIOMAN015]

Is there something inherently immoral about camouflage?  If they can learn the military traditions of close-order drill and saluting, why can't they learn life-saving survival skills like camouflage?

My only beef about it is that it appears to be applied wrong.  Too even.  The high-shine areas of the face need to be darker.

Of course the real question in my mind is how many senior members "wanna bees" at that activity had camouflage also applied to their faces.

Hey cadets, are kids that want to play army, so why not let them paint their faces, etc -- No real harm done!
RM

[Major Carrales]

Occasionally cadets get to do extraordinary things that are not "program."  They may have fun or take a photo in the spirit of the activity.  Sometimes PAOs will put these images in publications because they show cadets having a good time.

There is no harm in that.  We forget that cadets need to have a good time getting their training...if not, there will be no future cadets.  We have an obligation to provide strict training in an environment that makes them want to be in CAP.

[Pylon]

I find it interesting that folks on this blog go crazy about uniform violations, that some gear looks "to military" or complain about
bling and ranger programs, but it is okay to put a picture of cadets
in a national publication with face paint that is used for one purpose and one purpose only(concealment in military training).
That is what I don't "get" Eclipse.

Yyyyyyyyyeah.  You realize you're being a little ridiculous, right?


We use guidons. Their only real purpose is to identify the unit.  We don't really ever use the guidon to figure out what unit we're looking at.  99% of the time you already know.  Yet even in those situations where a guidon isn't needed, we often carry and display them.  It has other values as a tool to add complexity to drill and as an point of unit morale.   Should we get rid of guidons too, because they're "too military" and don't serve a truly important purpose in your omniscient view?


"Senior" envisions a cadet program where all the cadets just wear pressed polo shirts and khakis, sit quietly in sterile lecture halls devoid of any military insignia or artwork where they talk about leadership, teamwork, and aerospace as abstract subjects, and we recognize cadets for their progress by allowing them to wear a plain lapel pin bearing a numeral representing their achievement number.  Laughing, adventure, and anything not deemed essential by "Senior" would be strictly prohibited by his new CAPR 52-16.  This will surely induce hoardes of American teens to join Senior's new cadet program, and clearly they will benefit fifty-fold over the current iteration of the cadet program.


Thanks for figuring it all out for us.

[HGjunkie]

Yyyyyyyyyeah.  You realize you're being a little ridiculous, right?


We use guidons. Their only real purpose is to identify the unit.  We don't really ever use the guidon to figure out what unit we're looking at.  99% of the time you already know.  Yet even in those situations where a guidon isn't needed, we often carry and display them.  It has other values as a tool to add complexity to drill and as an point of unit morale.   Should we get rid of guidons too, because they're "too military" and don't serve a truly important purpose in your omniscient view?


"Senior" envisions a cadet program where all the cadets just wear pressed polo shirts and khakis, sit quietly in sterile lecture halls devoid of any military insignia or artwork where they talk about leadership, teamwork, and aerospace as abstract subjects, and we recognize cadets for their progress by allowing them to wear a plain lapel pin bearing a numeral representing their achievement number.  Laughing, adventure, and anything not deemed essential by "Senior" would be strictly prohibited by his new CAPR 52-16.  This will surely induce hoardes of American teens to join Senior's new cadet program, and clearly they will benefit fifty-fold over the current iteration of the cadet program.


Thanks for figuring it all out for us.

That has to be the best post I've read all week sir. I completely agree.  :clap:

[Bluelakes 13]

Did someone call?

As Bob asked, what's to get?  I am not a fan of face paint either, but if that helps their team spirit and have more fun, I do not see an issue with it.

No, my senior staff do not have face paint.

Being that this event had more participation than some encampments this year, I am very proud of it.  I am hoping to grow it into a region event next year with several Wings participating. 

More info here:

http://ilcapnews.blogs.com/il_cap_news_blog/2010/08/9th-annual-king-of-the-rock.html

[Senior]

Lordmonar, if you reread my post you will read that how I interpret
that statement is "can't have it visible on YOUR PERSON".  It would be
better to keep the long knives in your pack. 

Pylon,  I am a former Spaatz cadet so your analysis of me is completely WRONG.  I wish we could let the cadets do more military type stuff, but the lawyers in charge think the cadets might chip a nail, etc..

Bluelakes thanks for the simple reply.

Like I said at the end of my last post, I AM DONE

[jimmydeanno]

I wish we could let the cadets do more military type stuff, but the lawyers in charge think the cadets might chip a nail, etc..

Are we in the same program?

While this stuff wasn't banned before, I think the draft 52-16 speaks pretty well to this:

2-10. High Adventure Activities. With "challenge" being one of the key traits of cadet life (see paragraph 1-2), commanders are encouraged to offer cadets youth-scaled, high adventure activities (HAA). HAAs include rappelling, obstacle courses, low-ropes courses, water survival courses, and similar endeavors. However, short day hikes, compass courses, and bivouacs are routine aspects of cadet life and therefore are not considered HAAs.

There's even a way to go play paintball and airsoft, if you'd like, listed in it.

[Spaceman3750]

There's even a way to go play paintball and airsoft, if you'd like, listed in it.

Wearing only the finest bubblewrap .

But seriously, there is?

[Eclipse]

There's even a way to go play paintball and airsoft, if you'd like, listed in it.

Paintball and airsoft are explicitly prohibited.