Can't join the local unit

[Johann1827]

Hi All,

I have never posted here before - I need some advice about joining a unit.

I have been a senior member in CAP for a number of years. Recently, I moved to a new state and decided to join the local senior squadron. I went to the meeting and introduced myself. The meeting went OK and I decided that I'd like to join, so I waited around for the squadron commander to have a moment and told him I'd like to join. I'm a pilot, BTW. Now, anywhere else I've been it would just be a matter of telling him my ID number and I'd be transferred in. Not so here. He told me that I'd have to attend meetings for a few months and then I'd also have to be voted on by the membership committee. Also, he told me that most of the squadron's "work" gets decided on at the local bar after the meetings and I'd have to attend there as well. Again he told me I should hang around and let the guys get to know me and see if they'd be OK with me joining the unit.

So I went to the bar with them and they basically carried on like a bunch of drucnken sailors. I really want  to bee in CAP and this is the only unit within resaonable distance with an airplane but I get the distinct idea that I am unwelcome here perhaps because I don't drink for religious and health reasons. Like it's a closed fraternity. It just seems wrong that I can't just join the unit and participate - they never asked me anything about my CAP quailifications, or assignments or even my rank. I went away feeling rather hurt and wonder if I shouldn't be filing a complaint with the IG. Can anyone give any advice here?

THanks

"the new guy"

[Krapenhoeffer]

If they were getting drunk in a CAP uniform and/or he said that the drunkenness was a squadron sponsored activity, then there are 2b's to be had all around. Yeah, report it to that Wing's IG or CC.

In the mean time, is there another squadron that is also within your driving range?

[vmstan]

My thoughts exactly.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Yeah, they're getting drunk AND they have a USAF-owned aircraft!? I would consider dropping a line to the FAA as well. See if some of these punks gets their pilot's license revoked. 

[NC Hokie]

Sounds like you found a flying club masquerading as a CAP unit.  My suggestion would be to suck it up and look for another squadron, even if it's one that doesn't currently have an airplane.  After all, you might just be the last piece of the puzzle they're looking for to get an airplane of their own.

As far as an IG complaint goes, you have no case until they turn you down, which has not happened yet.

[jimmydeanno]

Yeah, they're getting drunk AND they have a USAF-owned aircraft!? I would consider dropping a line to the FAA as well. See if some of these punks gets their pilot's license revoked. 

Don't take this to a point where it doesn't need to go.  "Getting drunk" does not mean or imply that they're flying drunk.  AF pilots go to the O-Club and have a few with their buddies.  There are rules, just because they enjoy a beverage doesn't mean they're doing anything that would bring it to that level.  Chill out and look at this a bit more professionally.

[JeffDG]

Yeah, they're getting drunk AND they have a USAF-owned aircraft!? I would consider dropping a line to the FAA as well. See if some of these punks gets their pilot's license revoked. 

Unless you have some evidence that they're flying the aircraft while intoxicated (per the FARs), then why would the FAA care?  There's no reg against drinking if you have access to an aircraft.

[MSgt Van]

Sounds like a bunch of losers spewing B.S. of the highest magnitude. If that's how they run the squadron, somebody should be terminated/demoted/stripped of office, etc.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Oh, you have a complaint. And in accordance with CAPR 35-3, habitual drunkenness is reason for termination for cause. In addition, CAPR 35-3 states:

"Also, either members or nonmembers may initiate
complaints and refer them to a member's commander. In such cases,
the commander will immediately investigate the allegations and
will initiate termination action if appropriate."

You might not be able to go to the Wing IG, but you can certainly go to the Wing/CC by authority of this regulation.

[Eclipse]

By the numbers -

1) Membership / transfer committees are getting more and more common and are fully within the authority of the commander and required by regulation.

2) Expecting members to go to a bar afterward as part of your membership is ridiculous - time for a new commander.

3) Drinking in uniform isn't specifically prohibited but in a CAP context is generally unnecessary (change your shirt, remove your insignia, etc.) and being intoxicated in uniform is 100% unacceptable. (see #2)  I don't see the connection to them having an aircraft assigned, however, unless you are insinuating they are flying while intoxicated.  One is not related to the other, don't muddy any complaints trying to make the connection.

4) Being a member of one unit does not preclude you from flying an airplane assigned at another unit.

5) The USAF does not own our airplanes.

6) I can think of a number of different ways an IG complaint could be made here, including anonymously, however I agree that until they
denied you membership, a complaint on those grounds would probably not be sustained.  At this point you really only have a complaint regarding inappropriate conduct in uniform, and I would hazard a guess these after-meetings are not a secret in the wing.

From 50K feet I would say your best bet is find elsewhere to serve and just fly the plane out of that airport - filing a complaint that sticks and results in kiboshing those "meetings" would not likely ingratiate you with those members and won't make it a pleasant for you to spend your volunteer time. 

That doesn't make it right, but people are people.

[jeders]

I'm just curious, did you go to the meeting in uniform or out?

From my 50k foot perspective it kinda sounds like the commander thought you were a prospective member wanting to join CAP, not a member wanting to transfer.

As far as the "after-meeting" in a bar. The setting isn't necessarily the most appropriate while in uniform, but many squadrons have after-meetings at restaurants and such where they get a lot more "work" done then at the meeting itself. In fact, at one squadron I was in, our staff meetings were held at Denny's.

All that said, I have to agree with Hokie, this sounds like a GOB Flying Club and it would probably be best to try and find another squadron.

[a2capt]

Even though you are a current member, you still are new to them, you are supposed to attend three meetings as a new member and the membership committee is supposed to convene.

Their methods may be a little unique, a "few months" may be a bit much. they may have their reasons.  I, too would question the bar thing, and myself, would also be bored out of my mind in the environment.

Perhaps you got the very wrong impression, and it may be hard to erase that if that turns out to be the case, but I would go back a couple more times at least and see.  I suspect however you may be more right than wrong. As for firing off complaints, timing is everything. You do that now and you'll probably forget about CAP in your local area for a while.


You say that it's the only reasonably close unit with an aircraft. If they are indeed behaving like that, that may not be the case real soon. It's conceivable that, that aircraft may be re-located if things should fall apart at the unit it's at. ;-)


Look at other units, are there a group of pilots at other units that use that aircraft?

[Major Lord]

I think that a Squadron that is potentially accepting a new member, even a transfer member, should do its due diligence. I have seen various perverts, frauds, and psychopathic  CAP members in my decade + or so with CAP, and just because someone was accepted as a member elsewhere, it does not mean that it would be prudent to accept some other SQ's problem child. The fact alone that they (the transferring member) are changing SQ's should be an area of special inquiry. Maybe they thought this member would not be a good fit because he telegraphed his moral superiority as a non-drinker. ( There is no rule against drinking in CAP or CAP uniform......Period. Join the Mormon Boy Scouts if you can't live with that) Maybe they thought he was the kind of guy who would go around them and take it outside the Squadron, or maybe they just have policies and procedures ( Which are completely within their authority) to make sure new members are a good fit for their Squadron.

Major Lord
p.s. I happen to think that Sailors, drunk our otherwise, are the salt of the earth, and have a god-given right to be drunk. You would be too if they made you wear those funny pants and the CrackerJack outfit!

[dwb]

uh, he says right in his opening post that he moved to a different state.  It's not like he's squadron-hopping just for kicks...

[Major Lord]

Yes, that is what he says. So will you let him babysit your little sister? People leave an area for two reasons: Failure in one area or success in another. The receiving Squadron has a duty to make a good decision about a new members suitability, not an obligation to accept anyone who shows up on their doorstep. I am not in any way trying to defame the original poster ( heck, we don't even really know who it is, do we?)  but a Squadron has the terrible burden of weeding out members who may be a consistent drain on their resources, or may present a danger to our cadets. In my opinion, the latter is the more important. Lets say a member leaves a State because he was arrested for a crime, and served his time without CAP becoming aware of this. Do you think that there is a mechanism within CAP that will identify this in the case of a transferring member? Its a lot easier to reject a member than it is to kick one out.

Major Lord

[Flying Pig]

Oh, you have a complaint. And in accordance with CAPR 35-3, habitual drunkenness is reason for termination for cause. In addition, CAPR 35-3 states:

"Also, either members or nonmembers may initiate
complaints and refer them to a member's commander. In such cases,
the commander will immediately investigate the allegations and
will initiate termination action if appropriate."

You might not be able to go to the Wing IG, but you can certainly go to the Wing/CC by authority of this regulation.

You may want to look up the definition of habitual drunkenness.  Meeting after CAP for a couple of drinks hardly applies.

Or, you could hang around and get to know them and be a big boy or girl and tell them you dont want to go to the bar.  Or, go to the bar and order an Iced Tea.  After the CAP talk is over, and they start drinking, excuse yourself and leave.  If there are issues with them doing it in uniform, politely talk to the CC and tell them you'd feel more comfortable if members could wear a cover shirt over their uniforms or change.  If he tells you to stick it, then make your decision.  You said yourself the meeting went well, so dont be so quick to report everyone to the IG of your new Wing.  Before you go reporting people, make sure you know the connection if any, between the IG and the people you are reporting.  Being the new kid on the playground, dont talk smack until you know how everyone is related.

[FW]

Johann, you are a current member of CAP in good standing.  If you wish to be a member at a new squadron,  just have your records available for review to the commander and membership committee.  They do have the right to refuse the transfer though.   In any event, complaining to the IG would be counter productive to joining the unit.  My advice would be to do what "the Romans do", drink soda pop instead of the harder stuff and make some friends.  If that is not acceptable, join a unit without an aircraft.  As Eclipse said, you can always schedule the aircraft as, it is a wing asset; not a squadron asset.  Do what's best for your sanity and, be flexable....

[Pylon]

See if there's another unit within reasonable driving distance.

Or if there's not, approach the Group Commander with the idea of starting a new squadron.  If the one you went to it a senior squadron, you could make a good argument for starting a cadet squadron or composite unit, since you wouldn't be competing with the other unit and it would be filling a hereto unfulfilled "need" for a cadet program in the area.  Starting a new squadron is a great challenge and ultimately very rewarding.  The bonus is you can make sure it gets structured right and the right kind of volunteers are invited to the table to make it a quality unit. 

[Capflyer]

I was going to let this go, but based on some (not so uncommon) comments here in Captalk, I feel I need to clarify a few things.

First of all, I'm the Unit Commander of the unit the original poster visited and the original poster didn't really clarify everything in his post, so allow me to do that:

1. The original poster is NOT new to Captalk and posts here frequently under a different signature.

2. The bar we went to is ON THE BASE! We meet at an Air National Guard Base and went to the base All Ranks Club after the meeting. We usually do that because it's a good way to get to know each other and discuss things that might not be of interest for the whole group and prolong the meeting.

3. Nobody was drunk. It just doesn't happen since again, we meet on a base and we all have to drive home afterwards.
However, we do have a good time and jokes and laughs are common wether we drink alcohol or not.

4. Nobody was flying that night, but we did have several members who only drank soda just in case a mission came up.

5. I never told him that it's mandatory to come to the bar. I informed him that we usually go the club after the meeting and he was welcome to join us. He happily accepted.

6. I never told him he had to drink alcohol. In fact, I bought him a soda myself since he's not a member of the club and I usually do as a courtesy to visitors. If he had paid attention, he would have noticed that several members drank nothing but soda.

7. One member had a 50th b-day coming up and the squadron wanted to honor this on that particular evening. This of course made the jokes and laughs louder than normal.

8. I did tell him that he needs to attend more meetings with us before we accept a transfer. This is due to some very bad experiences we have had in the past with members who turned out to be troublemakers. We have a right to require this and we are not obligated to accept anyone we don't feel will be an asset to our squadron, our wing and CAP.

9. The original poster told me himself that he was "going to be in our state for a few months". I sure want to know more before I and our members spend time, energy and money on someone who then will just transfer somewhere else. This has been a frequent problem for us since we have an aviation college as closest neighbor. We constantly receive requests to join by students from that college. We take them in, spend time and resources training them, they graduate and leave.

10. We are a senior squadron, meaning we don't "set any bad examples" for cadets.

11. We are a flying squadron but we are NOT a GOB club. We have more than 1/3 of all MP's in our state and have more IC's and other mission base staff qualified members in our unit than any other unit in our state.  We take our mission very seriously and have always received at least an "excellent" on any SUI and Eval we have participated in while I have been a member.

12. We have several members in our unit who also are on Wing Staff. So yes, the wing knows us very well and respects us and the work we do for CAP.

13. I do know the original posters rank and qualifications since he belonged to this wing before (different unit), so I felt no need to ask him about that.

14. When the original poster left, I told him he was welcome back next meeting. I assume I can cross him off that list now.

I hope this clarifies things for you posters who start yelling "2B and IG" before you know the facts.

Respectfully..

Unit Commander (who should be 2b'd?)

[lordmonar]

If they were getting drunk in a CAP uniform and/or he said that the drunkenness was a squadron sponsored activity, then there are 2b's to be had all around. Yeah, report it to that Wing's IG or CC.

In the mean time, is there another squadron that is also within your driving range?

Being drunk in uniform is not, in and of itself, a 2b offense.

[Flying Pig]

Hi All,

I have never posted here before - I need some advice about joining a unit.

I have been a senior member in CAP for a number of years. Recently, I moved to a new state and decided to join the local senior squadron. I went to the meeting and introduced myself. The meeting went OK and I decided that I'd like to join, so I waited around for the squadron commander to have a moment and told him I'd like to join. I'm a pilot, BTW. Now, anywhere else I've been it would just be a matter of telling him my ID number and I'd be transferred in. Not so here. He told me that I'd have to attend meetings for a few months and then I'd also have to be voted on by the membership committee. Also, he told me that most of the squadron's "work" gets decided on at the local bar after the meetings and I'd have to attend there as well. Again he told me I should hang around and let the guys get to know me and see if they'd be OK with me joining the unit.

So I went to the bar with them and they basically carried on like a bunch of drucnken sailors. I really want  to bee in CAP and this is the only unit within resaonable distance with an airplane but I get the distinct idea that I am unwelcome here perhaps because I don't drink for religious and health reasons. Like it's a closed fraternity. It just seems wrong that I can't just join the unit and participate - they never asked me anything about my CAP quailifications, or assignments or even my rank. I went away feeling rather hurt and wonder if I shouldn't be filing a complaint with the IG. Can anyone give any advice here?

THanks

"the new guy"

:clap: Open mouth, insert foot. So, what was your motive for coming on here and bashing your "new" Squadron and its commander since your Squadron Commander seems to have a much different version of the evening.  Gotta love that anonymous posting option. Sometimes it'll get ya.  Good luck with your new unit.

Johan, I would look at your Sq CC's post, specifically line #8. 

[Krapenhoeffer]

Then I take back everything I say, Capflyer. It appears to me that the accusations are unfounded, and this juror of the Supreme Court of CAPTalk  votes not guilty by reason of blowing things out of proportion.

Carry on, good job, etc...

I'll just shut up now.

[Johann1827]

Yep you got me CapFlyer.

I was *trying* *very hard* to get helpful advice from fellow cap members about what to do and I was *trying* *very hard* to do it without identifying the offending unit. You sort of blew my cover.

I stand behind everything that I wrote. I was very troubled by what I saw at your unit. Respectfully, I withdraw my request  to join your unit - and I was able to make that decision about 30 minutes after being in the bar. I am here to be a voluteer emergency services pilot. I am here to be as professional as possible. I am not intersted in being a part of a closed bawdy foul mouthed beer drinking pilot fraternity.

What really bugged me was the closed fraternity. Any other CAP unit I have been to has welcomed me with open arms - just give them a CAP ID, have the paperwork check out and go for a check flight just to make sure. Always very very friednly and helpful. There are no informal "membership committees" that need to be satisified by having the right "personality". We in CAP are supposed to be professional in our conduct. What I saw that evening really bothered me, including the bad mouthing of the neighboring CAP squadron.

Again, I was trying to get help from fellow CAP members and trying to do it as anonymously as possible. T the others here, I was really trying to sort through something very troubling for me and I do appreciate the comments - positive and negative - that were shared here.

Please re-read my post. I just did, and I stand by what I wrote.

[Flying Pig]

If you transferred to my unit, you would need to attend a few meetings and go through a membership board before I accept you in, so its not uncommon.  Quite honestly, it seems like it worked out for you.  Before you joined, you were able to make a decision.  Whether you decided or they decided, it will probably work out for all involved.  What I have found though, is that if your going to call someone out, unless its criminal or you fear for your safety, either attach your name to it, or keep it to yourself.

[Johann1827]

I didn't call him out. He self identified.

[Flying Pig]

.  Don't start making it a safety issue, you were not even at a CAP meeting.  The meeting (which by your claim was actually decent) was over.  Do you have evidence of them flying intoxicated?  What are your safety issues? 

[Flying Pig]

Dude, you need to quite editing your posts.  You cited safety issues relating to aviation based on the members performance you witnessed.  Did you change your mind?

[lordmonar]

Yep you got me CapFlyer.

I was *trying* *very hard* to get helpful advice from fellow cap members about what to do and I was *trying* *very hard* to do it without identifying the offending unit. You sort of blew my cover.

I stand behind everything that I wrote. I was very troubled by what I saw at your unit. Respectfully, I withdraw my request  to join your unit - and I was able to make that decision about 30 minutes after being in the bar. I am here to be a voluteer emergency services pilot. I am here to be as professional as possible. I am not intersted in being a part of a closed bawdy foul mouthed beer drinking pilot fraternity.

What really bugged me was the closed fraternity. Any other CAP unit I have been to has welcomed me with open arms - just give them a CAP ID, have the paperwork check out and go for a check flight just to make sure. Always very very friednly and helpful. There are no informal "membership committees" that need to be satisified by having the right "personality". We in CAP are supposed to be professional in our conduct. What I saw that evening really bothered me, including the bad mouthing of the neighboring CAP squadron.

Again, I was trying to get help from fellow CAP members and trying to do it as anonymously as possible. T the others here, I was really trying to sort through something very troubling for me and I do appreciate the comments - positive and negative - that were shared here.

Please re-read my post. I just did, and I stand by what I wrote.

Would not have happened in my unit.

We vet everyone....new people, transfees, even members of the squadron who have let their memberships laps for more then six month have to go back to the membership board.  Sometimes it is just a formality...but we do it to insure we keep out those we don't want.

One of the problems of having to move around is that you have to reestablish yourself at each new unit.  And YOU have to make the effort to overcome the barriers that exist.

Now.....if you feel you were/are being treated unfairly, that regulations and policies are not being followed then by all means make the effort to go up the chain of command and the IG to fix the situation.

But if it is just a case of "I don't like the way they operate...or their too tight knit for met....or I did not feel welcome" there is not a lot you can do about that.  I sure wish that those situations did not exist...but they do...and I am not in any position to make squadrons change their personality just because some new member did not like it.

[Johann1827]

Yes I did change my mind and removed the remark promptly. They unit in question does have some very high time pilots and it was my hope to be able to learn from them. However, the attitudes I saw in the meeting (which reinforced experiences I have had with them in the past three years) make me "nervous" and factored into my decision to not join and to ask for advice *anonymously*.

[a2capt]

We do the same thing, even if folks are transferring. We've been burned probably as many times. All units are supposed to have a membership review board.

What the CC posted, is more along the lines of what I suspected.  But I answered with straight forward points. In my visits to units during road trips, I've attended the after-meeting get togethers as well, and to tell you, we're all pretty much alike. 

California or Kansas.. and places in between.

[Major Lord]

So hey, you still looking to joint that unit?

Major Lord

[Johann1827]

Please re-read my post. I just did, and I stand by what I wrote.

Would not have happened in my unit.

. . .

We vet everyone....

. . .

Now.....if you feel you were/are being treated unfairly, that regulations and policies are not being followed then by all means make the effort to go up the chain of command and the IG to fix the situation.

But if it is just a case of "I don't like the way they operate...or their too tight knit for met....or I did not feel welcome" there is not a lot you can do about that.  I sure wish that those situations did not exist...but they do...and I am not in any position to make squadrons change their personality just because some new member did not like it.
[/quote]

The unit meets once a month. "Several meetings" before some informal membership committe (*cough*cough* GOBs) makes a decision - based (apparently) on how well you socialize at the bar - is several months of not being able to participate effectively in CAP. That does strike me as having the appearrance of unfairness. Thus, why I sought ou8t the advice of fellow CAP members - again I was *trying* to be anonymous with respect to the unit. 

And what about the claim by the CC that they don't want students in their squadron? The squadron is at the same airport of a well known and respected aviation college. I can't think of a better win - win scenario for CAP recruiting than to have new professionally trained pilots getting involved in CAP. It seems to me more like that the real issue is they don't want their beautiful G1000 to be worn out.

[Eclipse]

I stand behind everything that I wrote.

Actually, you don't.  Not only are you posting anonymously, but its been alleged that you violated the TOS here by posting under a second account.

What really bugged me was the closed fraternity. Any other CAP unit I have been to has welcomed me with open arms - just give them a CAP ID, have the paperwork check out and go for a check flight just to make sure. Always very very friednly and helpful. There are no informal "membership committees" that need to be satisified by having the right "personality".

No, that's not how it works.  Membership committees are required by regulation.  The guideline is attending 3 consecutive meetings or more before your request for membership or transfer is considered.   This situation is exactly why I require my units to do this.

I still agree with the responses I and others gave to the scenario, which is all we can ever do on CT anyway, consider a scenario.  Personally, I would have simply let you not come back.  I would not have addressed your concerns in a public forum, but to each his own.

[Eclipse]

And what about the claim by the CC that they don't want students in their squadron? The squadron is at the same airport of a well known and respected aviation college. I can't think of a better win - win scenario for CAP recruiting than to have new professionally trained pilots getting involved in CAP. It seems to me more like that the real issue is they don't want their beautiful G1000 to be worn out.

Unit CC's are free to deny membership or transfer to anyone, and unless you can prove discrimination based on a protected class, the only recourse is to go elsewhere.

The aircraft is not owned by the unit, and as long as you are a qualified CAP pilot (i.e. Form 5), they have no say over who flies it, so your assertion is irrelevant.

[Johann1827]

If you feel I have violated TOS for asking for help and advice, then feel free to delete the account. Actually, I asked for my other account to be deleted previously so I don't have two accounts. Whatever.

Yes, the regs clearly state that the CC can deny membership. But the denial pretty much has to be for legitimate and professional reasons - CAP has a high regard for ethics, right? That the other guys in the unit might not think you are "cool" does not seem to be an ethical reason to deny or postpone or delay.

[vmstan]

Then I take back everything I say, Capflyer. It appears to me that the accusations are unfounded, and this juror of the Supreme Court of CAPTalk  votes not guilty by reason of blowing things out of proportion.

Carry on, good job, etc...

I'll just shut up now.

Me too!

[Eclipse]

If you feel I have violated TOS for asking for help and advice, then feel free to delete the account. Actually, I asked for my other account to be deleted previously so I don't have two accounts. Whatever.

Hi All,

I have never posted here before - I need some advice about joining a unit.

[Johann1827]

Johann1827 has never posted on Captalk before this time. 

Again, I was specifically asking for anonymous help. Make what you want of that.

[a2capt]

It's pretty hard to remain anonymous and cite specific examples, even when trying to "respect" the unit, you went one night. You observed one meeting, and one event of circumstance.

..and aren't you not supposed to have more than one account on here? I think so.

[a2capt]

Johann1827 has never posted on Captalk before this time. 

I love it. That explains it. Technicalities. No wonder you got that feeling at that meeting. Sigh..
Point is, it seems like nothing more than a clash of personality against several. Thats hard no matter what.

[MIKE]

Only one user account is permitted per individual.  Members of the same household may have separate accounts, however they should be kept clearly separate from each other.   Members found to have additional accounts may have those accounts deleted without warning, among other actions.

You can't fool everyone Johann.

[shorning]

That does strike me as having the appearrance of unfairness.

Whoever told you life was supposed to be "fair"?   

[tsrup]

You didn't come on here to ask for advice, you came on here to complain about the unit you went to without the ability for them to defend themselves.  It was just childish squadron bashing. 

Unfortunately for you the Squadron Commander called you out on it.

Usually there is a grain of salt to be had with each account of the evening's events, but your sly move of creating another account only destroyed your credibility.


Let us know how the squadron search turns out for you,  there aren't going to be very many Squadron Commanders happy to see you at their doorstep.

[capchiro]

I have never seen a Regulation that required a unit to have a membership committee..  Can someone point me in the right direction??

[RADIOMAN015]

I was going to let this go, but based on some (not so uncommon) comments here in Captalk, I feel I need to clarify a few things.

First of all, I'm the Unit Commander of the unit the original poster visited and the original poster didn't really clarify everything in his post, so allow me to do that:

2. The bar we went to is ON THE BASE! We meet at an Air National Guard Base and went to the base All Ranks Club after the meeting. We usually do that because it's a good way to get to know each other and discuss things that might not be of interest for the whole group and prolong the meeting.

3. Nobody was drunk. It just doesn't happen since again, we meet on a base and we all have to drive home afterwards.
However, we do have a good time and jokes and laughs are common wether we drink alcohol or not.

6. I never told him he had to drink alcohol. In fact, I bought him a soda myself since he's not a member of the club and I usually do as a courtesy to visitors. If he had paid attention, he would have noticed that several members drank nothing but soda.

7. One member had a 50th b-day coming up and the squadron wanted to honor this on that particular evening. This of course made the jokes and laughs louder than normal.



10. We are a senior squadron, meaning we don't "set any bad examples" for cadets.

14. When the original poster left, I told him he was welcome back next meeting. I assume I can cross him off that list now.

I wasn't going to say anything either BUT anyways  -- Perceptions are important, I'm not sure that CAP senior members meeting in a BAR in uniform after unit meetings, is really a good thing to do from a public relations standpoint for CAP as an organization.   In fact it can more dangerous overall especially on base -- to base relations & support, than stopping off base  

So I guess my question to you would be is one alcohol drink enough? Anyone buzzed (that's difficult to determine)   Do any of your members' stop anywhere else on the way home , surely a CAP senior member in uniform with alcohol on their breathe doesn't do much for the program as a whole.    

Got to also wonder why there's no composite squadron in your area, since there's such a long distance to the next squadron --- any attempts at that?     

Most companies now are discouraging their employees even at business meeting (lunch/supper) to drink alcohol.  AGAIN it's a VERY poor idea for CAP members in uniform to be doing this, regardless of regulation.   The world won't end if your "inner circle staff" doesn't have an alcoholic drink after such "intense" CAP meetings  -- your the leader who will set the pace on this. :angel:

Of course, if the prospective (now non) transferring member is upset enough I guess he/she could always just call security police and explain to them his/her concern about CAP'ers drinking at the club.   Perhaps security might do a random stop on some of the CAP'ers leaving the club.  Subsequent third party interventions/events in the end will separate the truth, half truths, & fiction from all these posts.     Good luck :angel:

RM   

[shorning]

I have never seen a Regulation that required a unit to have a membership committee..  Can someone point me in the right direction??

R39-2 says 'should' not 'will':  "1-5. Unit Membership Board (Applicable to cadets, cadet sponsors, and senior members only). All unit commanders should appoint a unit membership board comprised of a minimum of three members to assist the commander in determining the eligibility of new applicants and membership renewals."

[jimmydeanno]

In fact it can more dangerous overall especially on base -- to base relations & support, than stopping off base  

You're kidding right?  "The Base" loves it when the O'Club gets business because it's more money in the NAF account they can use for family support, etc.  Supporting base services with our members is a plus to the relationships between a CAP unit on the base and the base itself.

Every new person that comes to a base is "reminded" that the O'Club has memberships and benefits and it's "suggested" that you get a membership.  Patronizing the O'Club is not bad for relations.

Of course, getting yourself arrested while your there, etc could be bad.  However, the key here is acting responsibly.  Drinking itself does not constitute irresponsibility.

[Eclipse]

I have never seen a Regulation that required a unit to have a membership committee..  Can someone point me in the right direction??

Sorry, its a "should", not a "will".  Of course locally higher HQ is free to make it a "will".

CAPR 39-2

1-5. Unit Membership Board (Applicable to cadets, cadet sponsors, and senior members only). All unit commanders should appoint a unit membership board comprised of a minimum of three members to assist the commander in determining the eligibility of new applicants and membership renewals.

[Flying Pig]

Please re-read my post. I just did, and I stand by what I wrote.

Would not have happened in my unit.

. . .

We vet everyone....

. . .

Now.....if you feel you were/are being treated unfairly, that regulations and policies are not being followed then by all means make the effort to go up the chain of command and the IG to fix the situation.

But if it is just a case of "I don't like the way they operate...or their too tight knit for met....or I did not feel welcome" there is not a lot you can do about that.  I sure wish that those situations did not exist...but they do...and I am not in any position to make squadrons change their personality just because some new member did not like it.

The unit meets once a month. "Several meetings" before some informal membership committe (*cough*cough* GOBs) makes a decision - based (apparently) on how well you socialize at the bar - is several months of not being able to participate effectively in CAP. That does strike me as having the appearrance of unfairness. Thus, why I sought ou8t the advice of fellow CAP members - again I was *trying* to be anonymous with respect to the unit. 

And what about the claim by the CC that they don't want students in their squadron? The squadron is at the same airport of a well known and respected aviation college. I can't think of a better win - win scenario for CAP recruiting than to have new professionally trained pilots getting involved in CAP. It seems to me more like that the real issue is they don't want their beautiful G1000 to be worn out.
[/quote][/b]

I dont want my units G1000 worn out by flight school students.  I want experienced pilots capable of being mission pilots.  I have no use for "student pilots".  We have airplanes for Missions.  Not to supplement the local aviation college.  They are more than welcome to join, and become Observers or Scanners, learn from the more experienced pilots and when they have shown there are here for the entire program, work into TMP or MP status.  But student pilots at the local college building time in my units G1000 just because they completed Level 1?  No thanks.  I don't see it as a win for CAP.  I see it as a win for the students flying a G1000 for $36 p/hr.  And when they move on, the local unit is left with a worn out G1000 with LCD monitors covered in fingerprints and main gear struts covered in black boot scuffs.

[Major Lord]

Once again we have a member trying to create a new online identity and sell us a major load of BS. We have seen this before, with people trying to sell us everything from snake oil to non-existent emergency services gear. Eliminating anonymous posts would solve this neatly, but failing that, anonymous posters should always be met with the highest degree of skepticism. This one walked, talked, and quacked like a duck from moment-one. The fact that many are still bogged down in the posters original quagmire is proof of how successful these attacks can be;  A decent Squadron was nearly defamed as a bunch of drunken louts. "If these guys are drunks, then the poster must be right, right?" Not so much. People were getting their ropes out to hang (2b) these neer-do-wells for having the temerity to exercise their prerogative of a membership committee.

Major Lord

[a2capt]

A Tiger can't hide in the Daisy's forever.

Umm.. sir, they are drinking in there!
Son, thats what they do in the bar.

[Major Lord]

I think I will cancel our upcoming plans to hold a meeting at an opium den....

Major Lord

[raivo]

The threads I miss...

[RADIOMAN015]

In fact it can more dangerous overall especially on base -- to base relations & support, than stopping off base  

You're kidding right?  "The Base" loves it when the O'Club gets business because it's more money in the NAF account they can use for family support, etc.  Supporting base services with our members is a plus to the relationships between a CAP unit on the base and the base itself.

Every new person that comes to a base is "reminded" that the O'Club has memberships and benefits and it's "suggested" that you get a membership.  Patronizing the O'Club is not bad for relations.

Of course, getting yourself arrested while your there, etc could be bad.  However, the key here is acting responsibly.  Drinking itself does not constitute irresponsibility.

Yea, I'm sure all the guardmen/women really enjoy seeing those CAP'ers in their green wanna bee flight suits in the all ranks club.

Actually, I don't have a problem with CAP'ers joining the clubs where permitted by local policy.  Just do us all a favor in the CAP organization, and dress in an appropriate "civilian" attire --  IF you are in civilian clothes I have no issue with you even drinking responsibly, whatever that means, because depending upon circumstances even one alcoholic drink can impair you
RM

[shorning]

Yea, I'm sure all the guardmen/women really enjoy seeing those CAP'ers in their green wanna bee flight suits in the all ranks club.

  I'm sure they care less than you think they do....

[RADIOMAN015]

Yea, I'm sure all the guardmen/women really enjoy seeing those CAP'ers in their green wanna bee flight suits in the all ranks club.

  I'm sure they care less than you think they do....

I don't want to see any CAP'ers drinking in CAP uniform at the bar (especially the AF style uniforms) in my club!!!
and IF I do I will talk with the membership committee and get that changed, requring that associate members (which that is what CAP members are), be required to be in civilian clothes.
RM

[RADIOMAN015]

Maybe they thought this member would not be a good fit because he telegraphed his moral superiority as a non-drinker. ( There is no rule against drinking in CAP or CAP uniform......Period. Join the Mormon Boy Scouts if you can't live with that) Maybe they thought he was the kind of guy who would go around them and take it outside the Squadron, or maybe they just have policies and procedures ( Which are completely within their authority) to make sure new members are a good fit for their Squadron.

Hmm, I'm sure all are good Mormon CAP members appreciate your comments

IF they were in that military bar in CAP uniform and exceeded one hour, they are in violation of the uniform regulation.  This could easily have been avoided by just changing to civilian clothes.   What is this squadron commander and his fantastic staff trying to prove    

It's plain stupid to drink for the sake of drinking while in any CAP uniform.  IF a member is eating supper, perhaps ONE glass of wine or even ONE beer could be appropriate (but not lunch).    People closely observe anyone in uniform, and are likely to form a more negative opinion quicker when they see someone or groups drinking multiple drinks, being loud, etc.  Even if you are just drinking soda in a bar the observer may not know that.

As far as accepting a transferring member in good standing, surely some inquires should be made with the losing unit.   I think that not accepting someone based upon the "good fit for the unit criteria", is pretty lame, and the time that is going to be spent defending yourself on that lame excuse, isn't worth it. :angel:

I've found any transferring or new member that basically can't seem to identify/adapt to/with the organization's group dynamics, usually leave 3 to 6 months after arrival on their own.  Not a big deal, and most unit's do attempt to do followups, to find out why.   I don't think most of these folks that leave CAP really tell the real reason to the unit when they call anyways.
RM   
 

[RalphF]

Hi - where's this unit that has a bar and free beer at their meetings? Our unit stands around in a tiny unheated shack next to the airport for it's meetings.

[lordmonar]

RM,

How can it be okay for USAF members to drink in uniform but not the USAF Auxillary members to do the same?

When you close down the O Club and make everyone be in civilian clothes then maybe I would care what you think.

If you are not making a fool out of yourself it does not matter if you are in or out of uniform.

[RADIOMAN015]

RM,

How can it be okay for USAF members to drink in uniform but not the USAF Axillary members to do the same?

When you close down the O Club and make everyone be in civilian clothes then maybe I would care what you think.

If you are not making a fool out of yourself it does not matter if you are in or out of uniform.

CAP'ers are not in the military (although, there a propensity of many of them to live out their "fantasy" by going to the clubs and hanging out with the real AF guys & gals).    It is very likely they will stay more than 1 hour, thus violating the CAP policy on uniform wear after the official squadron meeting is over.  Any club membership is is privilege extended to the CAP members.   Likely wise as a military retiree IF I see an associate member doing something I don't like I have a right under the bylaws of the club to lodge a complaint about it.   That's what I will do IF I observe this behavior.  I would encourage others at other bases to do the same IF they observe that behavior by CAP personnel IN UNIFORM.

You see it really doesn't matter what CAP regulation says on this, active military personnel and retired personnel can still force some policy change at least within the respective military bases.  Frankly who really wants to go to the club to relax and have some wanna bee next to you

Hey if the CAP'ers want to change to civilian attire, I really don't care how long they stay at the military bar or even what they do.  Then they look like Joe or Jane plain guest, and not Joe or Jane 'wanna bee".   
RM 

[Walkman]

This is kinda' late but...

I read this thread with interest because I have visited this same exact unit under similar circumstances. I posted a while back about me moving to another state for a new job and was checking out new units.

I had a totally different reaction to my experience.

I also do not drink for both religious & personal reasons, however, them meeting at the club was not a problem for me. I had a water and being that I'm always one of the few people not drinking, it was a pretty familiar situation. I stayed for a while and didn't observe any drinking in excess or any behavior that was out of order. My radar for bad behavior with alcohol is pretty high, and I had no problems.

The meeting itself was professional. One of the things that has attracted me to this unit was their seriousness in training to a very high level of proficiency in mission skills. The CC said this and it stuck with me (paraphrased):

If it was your loved one lost, would you feel qualified enough to fly the mission, or would you rather have someone who could do the job better fly it? If you don't feel proficient to search for one of your own, why should you search for someone else's loved one?

While some will certainly find this hyperbole, I was impressed at it's basic tenent: We do a serious mission and should treat it that way.

I found out that many of the unit's members have RM and LEO experience.

Being new to the wing, I've chatted with others about joining the different units in the area. While some have mentioned the more closed nature of this unit's membership and that it's not easy to get into, everyone says the they are the top ES squadron in the wing. In all honesty, this is what I wanted when I first joined CAP, and I hope that they'll take me in and let me learn from them (I'm pretty green in ES).

There is a small cadet unit 1/2 hour west of this town that hopes to expand into a composite squadron. On the east, it's probably another 1/2 hour to 45 to the nearest squadrons.

<soapbox>
I've had the opportunity to move around the country quite a bit in my life. People are people everywhere. Some people you will get along with well, some you won't. It's the same at any job, church, non-profit, school, or neighborhood. Part of life is learning how to deal with that. It's a shame that it's become so easy on the web to be so negative about people.
</soapbox>

[Capflyer]

RM,

How can it be okay for USAF members to drink in uniform but not the USAF Axillary members to do the same?

When you close down the O Club and make everyone be in civilian clothes then maybe I would care what you think.

If you are not making a fool out of yourself it does not matter if you are in or out of uniform.

CAP'ers are not in the military (although, there a propensity of many of them to live out their "fantasy" by going to the clubs and hanging out with the real AF guys & gals).    It is very likely they will stay more than 1 hour, thus violating the CAP policy on uniform wear after the official squadron meeting is over.  Any club membership is is privilege extended to the CAP members.   Likely wise as a military retiree IF I see an associate member doing something I don't like I have a right under the bylaws of the club to lodge a complaint about it.   That's what I will do IF I observe this behavior.  I would encourage others at other bases to do the same IF they observe that behavior by CAP personnel IN UNIFORM.

You see it really doesn't matter what CAP regulation says on this, active military personnel and retired personnel can still force some policy change at least within the respective military bases.  Frankly who really wants to go to the club to relax and have some wanna bee next to you

Hey if the CAP'ers want to change to civilian attire, I really don't care how long they stay at the military bar or even what they do.  Then they look like Joe or Jane plain guest, and not Joe or Jane 'wanna bee".   
RM

I retired an O4 and we have an O5 and a couple of O3's in the unit. We also have two members who are still active in the guard at the same base and who were with us that evening. I don't think we can be defined as "wannabees". Maybe "has beens", but not "wannabees".

I don't think you need to lecture us in what we can and cannot do.

Besides, the nearby church was closed that night, so what were we supposed to do?....

[N Harmon]

I am familiar with this unit and have worked with several of its members including its commander. These are among some of the most dedicated and professional CAP officers you will ever meet. They take their duties seriously and are constantly working to improve CAP's capabilities. And with their dedication they have a high level of unit cohesion.

I guess I could see how that level of comradery would be intimidating to a new member. I'm not sure if that is the unit's problem, or the prospective member's. And unless you're one or the other it probably isn't your place to declare which. Either way, I think it gives something for both parties to consider.

Johan1827: The squadron is a really good one. You should give them a second chance, and perhaps try to mend fences. If you stay in this wing, you're bound to work with a member from there at some point.

...On a personal note; I am not big on mixing my professional and personal lives. I rarely meet with the people I work with outside of work. And when I do I never bring my wife (only exception is our company Christmas banquet). Likewise, I don't invite my coworkers to my backyard BBQs. I treat CAP as a separate professional life although not as strict as my day job. Just my personal opinion.

Besides, the nearby church was closed that night, so what were we supposed to do?....

What, was the gentleman's club closed?  (Inside joke)

[Walkman]

I stayed for a while and didn't observe any drinking in excess or any behavior that was out of order. My radar for bad behavior with alcohol is pretty high, and I had no problems.

From a purely hypothetical standpoint, if CAP members were acting in a inappropriate manner in uniform while drinking, it would be a problem.

In regards to this particular unit, from what I observed on my visit, there WAS NO BAD BEHAVIOR. Settle down everyone. These aren't a bunch of drunken fools soiling the name of CAP.

[RADIOMAN015]

RM,

How can it be okay for USAF members to drink in uniform but not the USAF Axillary members to do the same?

When you close down the O Club and make everyone be in civilian clothes then maybe I would care what you think.

If you are not making a fool out of yourself it does not matter if you are in or out of uniform.

CAP'ers are not in the military (although, there a propensity of many of them to live out their "fantasy" by going to the clubs and hanging out with the real AF guys & gals).    It is very likely they will stay more than 1 hour, thus violating the CAP policy on uniform wear after the official squadron meeting is over.  Any club membership is is privilege extended to the CAP members.   Likely wise as a military retiree IF I see an associate member doing something I don't like I have a right under the bylaws of the club to lodge a complaint about it.   That's what I will do IF I observe this behavior.  I would encourage others at other bases to do the same IF they observe that behavior by CAP personnel IN UNIFORM.

You see it really doesn't matter what CAP regulation says on this, active military personnel and retired personnel can still force some policy change at least within the respective military bases.  Frankly who really wants to go to the club to relax and have some wanna bee next to you

Hey if the CAP'ers want to change to civilian attire, I really don't care how long they stay at the military bar or even what they do.  Then they look like Joe or Jane plain guest, and not Joe or Jane 'wanna bee".   
RM

Quote from Capflyer:
I retired an O4 and we have an O5 and a couple of O3's in the unit. We also have two members who are still active in the guard at the same base and who were with us that evening. I don't think we can be defined as "wannabees". Maybe "has beens", but not "wannabees".

I don't think you need to lecture us in what we can and cannot do.

Besides, the nearby church was closed that night, so what were we supposed to do?....

Whether you are retired, active duty or not, lets face it you or anyone else really doesn't need to go to a bar, military or not in Civil Air Patrol Uniforms.

Nothing wrong with retired warriors getting together in civilian clothes, you've earned that just as I have.    However, come on going in CAP uniform   ---, for military retirees & active duty members, kind of bizzare isn't it???

Hey maybe the base chaplain can open up the church for you guys

I'm not lecturing anyone I'm just expressing an opinion and what I will do.  If you don't like it, I could care less!

RM

[Major Lord]

My gawwwd,  the post was about some guy BS'ing us about his experience with a unit that was probably wise not to accept him, and you have turned it into a thread about uniforms, drinking in uniform, and our relationship with the real military and their...wait for it.... uniforms!.......There is little hope for America's future........

Major Lord

[lordmonar]

One wonders why you are in CAP if you hate us so much.

[RADIOMAN015]

One wonders why you are in CAP if you hate us so much.

I like CAP, I like "most" CAP members.  I clearly stated what I think about drinking in uniform.  I clearly stated what I will do if I see CAP'ers drinking in my military club's bar in uniform.   I clearly stated that CAP associate club members in civilian attire, can drink and stay as long as they want at my club.  Those are very easy "common sens" rules to follow by any mature adult.  They are reasonable and protect CAP overall from any potential in uniform incidents & bad public relations.     
RM

[PHall]

One wonders why you are in CAP if you hate us so much.

I like CAP, I like "most" CAP members.  I clearly stated what I think about drinking in uniform.  I clearly stated what I will do if I see CAP'ers drinking in my military club's bar in uniform.   I clearly stated that CAP associate club members in civilian attire, can drink and stay as long as they want at my club.  Those are very easy "common sens" rules to follow by any mature adult.  They are reasonable and protect CAP overall from any potential in uniform incidents & bad public relations.     
RM

Well, it's "my" club too, and I have no problem with CAP members drinking in "my" bar.
And I'll bet the Club Manager doesn't have a problem with it either.

[a2capt]

No one else has pointed out, that I recall anyway, that "uniform" was never mentioned by the original poster, or the CC. Mostly Eclipse clarifying the regulations against flailing comments and RM on the usual seeming tirade about uniforms that gets weaved into every thread.

For all we know, they all changed, or they were wearing polo's and gray, with a jacket on who would even know who they are. People drink in bars. Happens all the time.

When I said in my first post, I'd question it too, based on the comments of the original poster and nothing else to go on, if that were indeed the scenario I'd question it. To whom? Myself, probably. ..and move on if I didn't like it, but the tone of the post sounded jaded anyway.  I'm glad the unit commander stepped up to clarify it, and from what I can see of several others in agreement, there's nothing out of the ordinary.

Again, sounds like the camaraderie in many other units every day.

Can't please everyone, all of the time, myself included. Oh well.

We have a gathering in Kansas City each July which is why I visit units along the road/airplane trip. One year, and each since, one of the group would go buy several boxes of Krispy Kreme's.  We had one of the others in attendance railing probably as much about how those doughnuts were not "real", how they were destroying independent shops everywhere, how this and that, and on and on for hours.  Railing on as much as this original poster seemed to, perhaps.

Dude, the KK's were free. Don't like 'em? Don't take any. Simple. Oh well.

Don't like the unit, move on. Vote with your feet. Probably loose the election anyway, but you voted. Thats the important part.

[raivo]

RM,

How can it be okay for USAF members to drink in uniform but not the USAF Auxillary members to do the same?

When you close down the O Club and make everyone be in civilian clothes then maybe I would care what you think.

If you are not making a fool out of yourself it does not matter if you are in or out of uniform.

CAP has, in my experience, taken a stricter view on when it's OK to wear the uniform than the RM does, and here's my theory.

The RM has the ability to crack down on people who act "unwisely" when drinking, be they in or out of uniform. Story time: At OTS, once all your graded measures are complete and you return from your "field" week out in the Alabama backwoods, you attend "O-Club Orientation." Despite its academic-sounding name, it's basically your entire class getting together at the Maxwell O-club and celebrating the fact that you've effectively passed all your tests and are all set to graduate. Without going into details, a few trainees in my upper class committed some... ah... "buffoonery" during their orientation, and ended up taking paperwork with them to their next base. (For the non-military folk, "paperwork" is a Letter of Reprimand/Counseling/Admonishment that becomes part of your permanent service record. For officers, it's a very bad thing.)

In contrast, the harshest mechanism CAP has for dealing with such things is to kill someone's membership. If some CAP member should happen to be wearing the uniform whilst committing "buffoonery", the USAF (who has to suffer the repercussions, however minor they may be, of someone being perceived as a USAF member because they were wearing the uniform) doesn't have any recourse; so, CAP keeps a regulatory leash on its members just to be safe.

Which only really applies to the USAF uniform, but it carries over to the CAP uniform. IMHO, FWIW, etc.

[RalphF]

"He said, she said."

[SarDragon]

Since the OP has been suspended, and the thread has degenerated int another crap-fest, isn't it about time to click this thing off?

[cap235629]

 :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap: