I need a little help from some of my fellow CAPTalkers.
The AF base that I am often at (that also has a CAP squadron on base, but I'm not a member of that squadron) is trying to straighten out base access for CAP members.
It seems there are conflicts and the Base Ops Group commander has asked me to find out how other bases handle providing access to bases for CAP members (without a military ID, retired, reserve, etc.) supporting a contingency operations such as search and rescue, going to the clothing store to purchase uniforms, attending CAP meetings on base, etc. We are especially interested in access to AF bases but please include other (Air Guard, Natl Guard, Army, etc).
Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
My old squadron met on an ANG station, although, it was a base that only housed one squadron and didn't have 24-7 security and people there (not sure what you'd call that - a "stand alone" facility?). We simply used a call-down system for all members, and found out if they were going to be there or not, and submitted the list to the base security officer before hand. (Prospective members and others, i.e. parents of cadets, were added to the list, too.)
That's what I usually hear is the standard way of doing things. The base MP / SF guys will have a list of those in the squadron, and will simply check that against their ID's.
I've also heard of some bases issuing base-specific ID cards for these types of situations, which simply let the gate guards know you've got business on the base.
PM Away.
Peterson in Colorado provides photo id badges (contractors?) for CAP members on the approved list maintained by the wing adminstrator. Allows members to get on, but no escort priviledges. We had to get the badges at the Visitor's center.
McChord requires that all CAP members who are not assigned to McChord, stop at the Visitor Center and get a vehicle pass. if you are assigned to a unit on MCChord, the state director would add your name to a list that is maintained at the Visitor Center that would allow you to acquire a vehicle pass that was good for a year. If you were just a passenger in a vehicle, you just had to show your CAP ID card alogn with your driver's license. Since I left the state I think, since they have gone with a solution called Defense ID at the gates and you no longer even have to stop at the visitor's center for a vehicle pass.
I'm not terribly sure that we really want to discuss this in an open forum, so I will PM you instead.
As Joe noted some of you may be reluctant to discuss this in the open forum, if so please PM me with the info.
Thanks
Seems like everyone's different. PM sent.
I've experienced similar difficulties getting CAP members in good standing onto Air Force installations.
The CAP ID (with supplemental photo ID, if applicable) may OR MAY NOT be acceptable credentials to enter an AF Base. The bottom line is whether or not the CAP ID is acceptable is up to the base commander.
The State Director system is set up specifically to address issues of AF support. If it remains an issue, contact him/her through channels.
I also sent you a PM. But in general it seems gate hours often play a big part in how CAP'ers get access. Bases that dont have 24 hour gates will often require something more than just a CAP ID. Biggest thing is respect base ops regs as to what facilities can and can not be used by CAP members. Respect the base, and it will usually return the favor. YMMV
And to add to that, some bases (Offutt for sure) outsource their gate guard duties to a private security company. The Civilian guys don't always know everything that the Security Forces guys do. For us at Offutt, they're used to us. Some check the EAL, some just check our CAP credentials and send us through. Your best bet would be to talk to the CAP unit on the base (if one is available), or contact the Pass and ID folks (again, may be called something different at your local base) to see what you need.
If all else fails, as has been stated, your State Director can get you where you need to go.
I have found it varies. When my wife was on active duty, we were stationed in Virginia. The AFB base accepted CAPID with driver's license. That was it.
My new unit on a guard base does the same, however, they ask for an updated list of our members once per month but they don't restrict CAP members from other units.
PM sent.
One thing to keep in mind is even when you think you have all of the problems worked out with the base commander and other military folks, that doesn't mean that you won't have issues at the gate with the contractors that are now at all CONUS AF bases. While working on a base, from time to time I would present my CAP ID to see what they would do. It was always up in the air if it would work or not and that was with an approved list of members at the gates.
One thing....please don't argue with the folks at the gate!! They are doing thier jobs by being vigilant!!
Being retired military with an appropriate ID card, I DO NOT feel that CAP members should get access to a military base at all times & restrictions should be in place that all members understand & comply with.
IF there is a "legitimate" need to be on the base so be it e.g. unit meetings, bx shopping for authorized uniforms/accessories, weekend scheduled training/exercises, actual missions (security should have a list of CAP personnel who can authorized entrance at other than "normal" times).
What usually causes problems for CAP is that an individual "wanna bee" will do something on the base that will bring discredit upon the organization (speeding,, shoplifting, or being in area they shouldn't be in) & then the installation commander will be having a chat with the CAP unit commander, or perhaps someone higher.
Frankly, I think every CAP commander that has his/her unit meeting on a military base, needs to know when the membership (those being granted entry to the military base based upon their CAP ID card) is going to be on the base and for what purpose. If the member stops coming to the meetings (inactive) it's time to pull the CAP ID card away from them to ensure they don't get on base for any reason.
Each base determines how parents/guardians of cadets will be granted entry into the installation, and cadets/parents are appropriately briefed by the unit commander.
RM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2009, 02:26:34 AM
Being retired military with an appropriate ID card, I DO NOT feel that CAP members should get access to a military base at all times & restrictions should be in place that all members understand & comply with.
IF there is a "legitimate" need to be on the base so be it e.g. unit meetings, bx shopping for authorized uniforms/accessories, weekend scheduled training/exercises, actual missions (security should have a list of CAP personnel who can authorized entrance at other than "normal" times).
What usually causes problems for CAP is that an individual "wanna bee" will do something on the base that will bring discredit upon the organization (speeding,, shoplifting, or being in area they shouldn't be in) & then the installation commander will be having a chat with the CAP unit commander, or perhaps someone higher.
Frankly, I think every CAP commander that has his/her unit meeting on a military base, needs to know when the membership (those being granted entry to the military base based upon their CAP ID card) is going to be on the base and for what purpose. If the member stops coming to the meetings (inactive) it's time to pull the CAP ID card away from them to ensure they don't get on base for any reason.
Each base determines how parents/guardians of cadets will be granted entry into the installation, and cadets/parents are appropriately briefed by the unit commander.
RM
I don't think you can just pull someones CAP ID Card because they go inactive. As long as they're paying dues, they're entitled to that card.
Quote from: BrandonKea on May 28, 2009, 05:47:07 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2009, 02:26:34 AM
Being retired military with an appropriate ID card, I DO NOT feel that CAP members should get access to a military base at all times & restrictions should be in place that all members understand & comply with.
IF there is a "legitimate" need to be on the base so be it e.g. unit meetings, bx shopping for authorized uniforms/accessories, weekend scheduled training/exercises, actual missions (security should have a list of CAP personnel who can authorized entrance at other than "normal" times).
What usually causes problems for CAP is that an individual "wanna bee" will do something on the base that will bring discredit upon the organization (speeding,, shoplifting, or being in area they shouldn't be in) & then the installation commander will be having a chat with the CAP unit commander, or perhaps someone higher.
Frankly, I think every CAP commander that has his/her unit meeting on a military base, needs to know when the membership (those being granted entry to the military base based upon their CAP ID card) is going to be on the base and for what purpose. If the member stops coming to the meetings (inactive) it's time to pull the CAP ID card away from them to ensure they don't get on base for any reason.
Each base determines how parents/guardians of cadets will be granted entry into the installation, and cadets/parents are appropriately briefed by the unit commander.
RM
I don't think you can just pull someones CAP ID Card because they go inactive. As long as they're paying dues, they're entitled to that card.
But you can pull them off the EAL (base access list).
I have to be honest, I haven't responded to the PM yet, but I'm completely uncomfortable with this conversation.
Why would you be uncomfortable talking about CAP members having access to US military installations?
What kind of boggey men you affraid of??
ESERVICES knowledge base
"BASE ACCESS"
For additional details on the USAF-CAP relationship see paragraphs below from AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 10-2701 ORGANIZATION AND FUNCTION OF THE CIVIL AIR PATROL
Installation commanders are encouraged in AF instructions to support CAP activities and members, but may exercise their discretion in determining access to facilities and services by CAP members. You may wish to apply for a one day pass at "Vistor Pass & ID" for puposes of purchasing uniform and insignia items and also inquire about registering your vehicle with base Pass & ID. CAP ID, valid current vehicle registration, valid current proof of insurance coverage are required. If access to a base is a recurring problem, you should ask your unit commander to notify the CAP base liaison officer of the situation and ask for help to allow CAP members access to base facilities. Liaison by CAP with host installations and supporting units is critical for CAP to successfully plan and conduct activities. AF regulations require AF installation commanders to appoint a field grade officer to assist CAP and supporting Air Force units appoint a project officer to coordinate their support and involvement in activities. Commanders will provide the designee's name, rank, office symbol and telephone number to HQ CAP-USAF. Installation commanders will contact CAP-USAF liaison personnel directly to coordinate matters relating to the activity.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 28, 2009, 06:26:54 AM
I have to be honest, I haven't responded to the PM yet, but I'm completely uncomfortable with this conversation.
Wow, where did this go bad?
Quote from: Always Ready on May 28, 2009, 06:13:01 AM
Quote from: BrandonKea on May 28, 2009, 05:47:07 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2009, 02:26:34 AM
Being retired military with an appropriate ID card, I DO NOT feel that CAP members should get access to a military base at all times & restrictions should be in place that all members understand & comply with.
IF there is a "legitimate" need to be on the base so be it e.g. unit meetings, bx shopping for authorized uniforms/accessories, weekend scheduled training/exercises, actual missions (security should have a list of CAP personnel who can authorized entrance at other than "normal" times).
What usually causes problems for CAP is that an individual "wanna bee" will do something on the base that will bring discredit upon the organization (speeding,, shoplifting, or being in area they shouldn't be in) & then the installation commander will be having a chat with the CAP unit commander, or perhaps someone higher.
Frankly, I think every CAP commander that has his/her unit meeting on a military base, needs to know when the membership (those being granted entry to the military base based upon their CAP ID card) is going to be on the base and for what purpose. If the member stops coming to the meetings (inactive) it's time to pull the CAP ID card away from them to ensure they don't get on base for any reason.
Each base determines how parents/guardians of cadets will be granted entry into the installation, and cadets/parents are appropriately briefed by the unit commander.
RM
I don't think you can just pull someones CAP ID Card because they go inactive. As long as they're paying dues, they're entitled to that card.
But you can pull them off the EAL (base access list).
+1, although as we've seen, not all bases utilize EAL's to the extent that us Offutt (or former Offutt) peeps are used to.
Uncomfortable??
How is that , Eclipse?
Is the CAP FOUO boogeyman gonna hunt us down for this / these threads...
If so then CAP NHQ ought to get with 1AF and put a dictum out about "Secret entry with CAPID cards"
All the ex REAL mil types and some non mil types are merely stating the obvious
FOUO in CAP gone awry
I'm uncomfortable with the exact requirements for access to a military installation (for example, where a CAP Membership Card is sufficient and where there is another control like being on an EAL) made public for anyone to decide which base is the lowest-hanging fruit for access.
It's information that the non-CAP member reading this board has no need to know. Think about a list being made of every USAF base that can be accessed for a ~100 membership fee with no other controls and how that might be valuable to some people.
This is the first thread that I've seen that I think should be edited and locked. I don't mind us discussing it in private (PMs, say), but this information should not be public knowledge.
Quote from: Smokey on May 26, 2009, 09:56:54 PM
I need a little help from some of my fellow CAPTalkers.
The AF base that I am often at (that also has a CAP squadron on base, but I'm not a member of that squadron) is trying to straighten out base access for CAP members.
It seems there are conflicts and the Base Ops Group commander has asked me to find out how other bases handle providing access to bases for CAP members (without a military ID, retired, reserve, etc.) supporting a contingency operations such as search and rescue, going to the clothing store to purchase uniforms, attending CAP meetings on base, etc. We are especially interested in access to AF bases but please include other (Air Guard, Natl Guard, Army, etc).
Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Base access is extended as a priveledge by the installation commander for CAP members to accomplish the mission. The procedures are usually worked out between CAP units and the OG CC based on base policy - as it seems the OG CC is doing with you now. The rules vary, usually due to the size and type of base.
For the large bases, the following is pretty standard:
1. Access by non-military personnel is a priveledge extended by the installation commander, subject to revocation at any time.
2. For MCSS, CAP Wing business, or special funcitons, the policy is usually a valid CAP ID Card and another government issued photo ID.
3. All vehicle requirements for that installation must be adhered to (Seatbelts, insurance, Tag, inspection, laws, special motorcycle requirements).
4. As a priveledge, access constitutes member's consent for vehicle searches.
For the smaller bases - as with our unit who meets on an ANG base, the rules can be a bit more strict:
1. Access to the base is by EAL, submitted by designated CAP officers (usually the commander) at a designated time before the meeting. We usually send ours the day prior. Visitors not on the list are OK, but the gate will call or page me before letting them on.
2. Same rules listed above apply. Behave yourself and everything goes well.
If a member expresses disagreement with the base policy (usually over the search part) I remind them this is a priveledge extended by the installation commander because we do good things for the AF and the community. If they are not comfortable with it, I nicely recommend they find another CAP unit, or reconsider membership overall. The last thing we need above all is an incident, so I try to be very clear about this.
Talk to the SF folks and the SG CC about what they want you to do. SHould be an easy thing.
Hope this helps.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on May 28, 2009, 02:00:15 PM
I'm uncomfortable with the exact requirements for access to a military installation (for example, where a CAP Membership Card is sufficient and where there is another control like being on an EAL) made public for anyone to decide which base is the lowest-hanging fruit for access.
It's information that the non-CAP member reading this board has no need to know. Think about a list being made of every USAF base that can be accessed for a ~100 membership fee with no other controls and how that might be valuable to some people.
This is the first thread that I've seen that I think should be edited and locked. I don't mind us discussing it in private (PMs, say), but this information should not be public knowledge.
There's nothing "Spooky" about this conversation, it's standard procedure for everyone requiring access to the base, and is usually posted on base web sites.
Not sure where you're getting the EAL FOUO fear. Once Pass and ID or the SFS gets the access roster, it is considered Privacy Act information and not released publicly (or should not be).
I don't understand the thread-lock argument here.
^ Exactly.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 28, 2009, 06:26:54 AM
I have to be honest, I haven't responded to the PM yet, but I'm completely uncomfortable with this conversation.
??
I'll PM you guys.
I'll have to agree with Joe... in this day and age where bad guys are savvy and will exploit any potential vulnerability whenever the opportunity arises, we can't take a chance.
And let's not forget:
18 Guests, 14 Users (6 Spiders) Users active in past 15 minutes
These posts are being archived by Google, et al.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on May 28, 2009, 02:00:15 PM
I'm uncomfortable with the exact requirements for access to a military installation (for example, where a CAP Membership Card is sufficient and where there is another control like being on an EAL) made public for anyone to decide which base is the lowest-hanging fruit for access.
It's information that the non-CAP member reading this board has no need to know. Think about a list being made of every USAF base that can be accessed for a ~100 membership fee with no other controls and how that might be valuable to some people.
This is the first thread that I've seen that I think should be edited and locked. I don't mind us discussing it in private (PMs, say), but this information should not be public knowledge.
It already is.
It is public information.
This super-secret squirrel cloak-and-dagger bit is just silly.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on May 28, 2009, 02:49:57 PM
And let's not forget:
18 Guests, 14 Users (6 Spiders) Users active in past 15 minutes
These posts are being archived by Google, et al.
Nothing posted so far isn't on public base web sites regarding access procedures and policy. Contractors and workers need to know the info before showing up at the gate. The bottom line message in all counts is if you are not authorized or do not agree with the rules, you don't get in.
Policy that is publicly available is OK. You need that information to do the things that you do. Detailed discussion about base XXX and what happened on YYY is a no no.
Quote from: desertengineer
Policy that is publicly available is OK. You need that information to do the things that you do. Detailed discussion about base XXX and what happened on YYY is a no no.
Exactly my point. I'm worried that a collection of posts such as "Well, here at Blownchunks AFB if you have $100 to get a membership card, you get easy access and the run of the place" may cause those who shouldn't get access to decide to GET access.
It makes ZERO sense from both a CAP perspective and a FP perspective to identify the "weak links" where a good CAP/Base relationship has permitted easy access.
Quote from: desertengineer1 on May 28, 2009, 03:03:27 PM
Nothing posted so far isn't on public base web sites regarding access procedures and policy.
Oh? Go back and re-read some of the first posts.
Quote from: JoeTomasone on May 28, 2009, 03:18:01 PM
Quote from: desertengineer1 on May 28, 2009, 03:03:27 PM
Nothing posted so far isn't on public base web sites regarding access procedures and policy.
Oh? Go back and re-read some of the first posts.
Just did again....
Two categories are posted. (1) Base Procedures that are public. Pass/ID will tell you the same thing if you call, or just look on the XXX.af.mil website. and (2) " they should" posts that are nothing more than opinions. Maybe base YYY should have snipers in the trees. Maybe base ZZZ should have a mote with starving dragons. Maybe I should win the lottery.....
You get the drift...
The next phase is usually "I hate it when..." or "Back at XXXX the guy gave me a hard time about my CAP iD card"...
Yeah.. That goes right back to what I stated earlier. He/she can tell you to turn around for whatever reason. Nothing new there...
I think it may be a tad naive to think that someone is using this information for the purposes you have described.
At the Naval Station in Norfolk, they routinely allow the pizza delivery guy on base. The pizza places proudly advertise "We Deliver On Base," even post-911 they allowed civilian taxi drivers to cruise around the barracks looking for sailors who wanted a ride into town.
There are countless ways for people to get onto a military base, and they are all public knowledge. You know the Burger King or McDonalds that's on base? How do you think the employees (who are not dependents) get to work? Through an access list.
And since its easier to become an employee at McDonalds than it is to, say, ingratiate yourself into the Squadron or Wing, wait a month and a half for a membership card to be issued and then get added to an access list (which may or may not actually allow you access to anything), I think this conversation falls into the realm of "pretty darn harmless."
We should not discuss how many access points bases have, we should not discuss specific bases even, but saying "Well, in the past we had an access list and they allowed us on base with no problem" is hardly poor OPSEC, and you'd be wiser to direct your ire toward the golden arches before aiming at those who just want a general question answered.
Guys, there ia no "Secret Squirrel" stuff about base access. Nothing has been discussed that is not publicly available information.
The point here is that we don't need to provide any variable to the bad guys for them to do the math.
Something silly like "they deliver pizza on base" may be public knowledge, or not - they don't need get it here.
I would vote these discussions be locked / taken down and in the future done via PM.
Man up that CAP Black Van for possible FOUO infractions
THIS IS an emergency get your lights and sireeeeens on >:D >:D >:D >:D
Quote from: Who_knows? on May 28, 2009, 03:36:10 PM
Guys, there ia no "Secret Squirrel" stuff about base access. Nothing has been discussed that is not publicly available information.
You can call PASS/ID for any base and get the same information that's been discussed here. The Pizza guy is usually a military dependant or an E-3 with a night job. My roomie was one when I was airman. If not, they can easily get put on an EAL.
Nothing spooky here. Move along...
Ok you guys get off Joes Back
Anyone interested in going to Fort Irwin to watch anti terrorist combat training. It is open to the public including a base tour for $58.00
http://www.gointhebox.com/index.html (http://www.gointhebox.com/index.html)
Joe has a point
do you remember the good old days when we would sing" I would rather be Dead than Red".
Spies all looked like Natasha and Boris, and was agent 99 hot or what?
Quote from: wingnut55 on May 28, 2009, 04:17:51 PM
Ok you guys get off Joes Back
Anyone interested in going to Fort Irwin to watch anti terrorist combat training. It is open to the public including a base tour for $58.00
http://www.gointhebox.com/index.html (http://www.gointhebox.com/index.html)
I wonder if the terrorist can find 58 bucks.... hm, anyway the base commander at whiteman approved an ever changing eal system, basiclly if cap wants to come on base call the pass and id people, give them a list, they check you out and you roll on, its not like you can get in, let alone get near a restricted area anyway. Look out Bx and clothing sales, capers are coming!
Quote from: desertengineer1 on May 28, 2009, 03:50:30 PM
Quote from: Who_knows? on May 28, 2009, 03:36:10 PM
Guys, there ia no "Secret Squirrel" stuff about base access. Nothing has been discussed that is not publicly available information.
You can call PASS/ID for any base and get the same information that's been discussed here. The Pizza guy is usually a military dependant or an E-3 with a night job. My roomie was one when I was airman. If not, they can easily get put on an EAL.
Nothing spooky here. Move along...
Yeah, in the Navy you don't want to get caught delivering pizzas on base as your part-time job. And while you can ask, I never saw a request to become a pizza guy get approved. Too much potential for fraternization and disgracing the Navy and such.
Most of the pizza guys in Norfolk are/were regular, plain old civilians who got themselves added to the Access List. It is worth noting that base access is still pretty useless once past the gate. All the good stuff requires valid military ID :)
Quote from: Ollie on May 28, 2009, 05:41:46 PM
Most of the pizza guys in Norfolk are/were regular, plain old civilians who got themselves added to the Access List. It is worth noting that base access is still pretty useless once past the gate. All the good stuff requires valid military ID :)
Bingo...that's the way it is at most bases. You need your ID for almost everything. At some bases, your ID gets a workout. At others, it's a different story.
Honestly guys, if you are screaming FOUO/OPSEC/COMSEC,
then report it. If you think you have witness something, it is your duty to report it. But, I think Google is more of the enemy than we are. Everything that has been said on here thus far can easily obtained and verified via the internet, asking Pass and ID, or asking the guard at any base gate.
Any problems with the bases should be handled through the Wing Director or whatever the former liason offers are called now. In addition almost all AF bases have an officer assigned in an ADY status as the bases's liason for CAP.
Quote from: Cecil DP on May 28, 2009, 06:12:57 PM
Any problems with the bases should be handled through the Wing Director or whatever the former liason offers are called now. In addition almost all AF bases have an officer assigned in an ADY status as the bases's liason for CAP.
Or the CAP POC designated therein. Being an "O" member of the ANG unit that owns the building, I'm the guy who works out access requirements with our host base.
:)
Easy does it folks.....
As stated in my original post, the Base OG CC asked me to find out what other bases are doing. Again if you feel better about PM me, please do as many already have ( AND I THANK YOU).
This issue has come up before on this same base. Just recently for a mission on base, two CAP officers had no problem using CAP ID. One was made to wait 30 minutes before access was granted after he finally called the OG CC who chewed out the gate guard.
Other issues have included CAP members who are members of the flying club on base. One day CAP ID is OK, the next day or next guard shift it isn't. The OG CC was looking for some ideas.
As was pointed out, the Burger King worker and similiar have much less vetting than we do. We are at least fingerprinted and screeened by squadron members who hopefully use some common sense in allowing folks to join CAP.
As for the comments about restricting access due to CAP members shoplifting, acting wild, etc. Well, SHAME on them. But I don't see that as a real problem. How many CAP folks have done that stuff. It seems a bit overblown. Besides.....have you read about the stooopid stuff real AF folks have done?! Some of those 18 year old E1 & 2 (even higher) do real stoopid stuff all the time. Merely being a AF member does not automatically equal integrity and common sense. (no offense to RM & Kack!)
The first day I went back to my Squadron and was no longer a dependent and not on the EAL, it took approximately 30 minutes for them to run my background before they let me on base, and I was escorted by an two E-5's.
Quote from: Always Ready on May 28, 2009, 06:01:10 PMEverything that has been said on here thus far can easily obtained and verified via the internet, asking Pass and ID, or asking the guard at any base gate.
Perhaps, but that doesn't mean
we have to say it, so that when the media does the same Google'ing, CAPTalk is the first link.
It doesn't need to be a violation of anything to be a bad idea to discuss a particular subject.
Part of free speech is know when to keep your mouth shut.
Quote from: Smokey on May 28, 2009, 08:14:08 PMOther issues have included CAP members who are members of the flying club on base. One day CAP ID is OK, the next day or next guard shift it isn't. The OG CC was looking for some ideas.
I've run into this problem a few times myself. I typically enter through the bases main gate, never had an issue. Though sometimes I try the other gates depending on if they are closer to where I need to get to and its about 50/50. All depending on who the guard is that day. Some know about CAP and will let you through no hassel, others will sit there for 5 minutes or more (YMMV) while they decided to let you through or not.
There's no rule at our base telling CAP to specifically go through the main gate, but the guards seem a bit more well trained as thats also the gate that visitors are required to go through. And if you are a visitor, heh then good luck getting in, because you won't. Not unless you are sponsored by someone who works at the base ops center.
Quote from: Smokey on May 26, 2009, 09:56:54 PM
I need a little help from some of my fellow CAPTalkers.
The AF base that I am often at (that also has a CAP squadron on base, but I'm not a member of that squadron) is trying to straighten out base access for CAP members.
It seems there are conflicts and the Base Ops Group commander has asked me to find out how other bases handle providing access to bases for CAP members (without a military ID, retired, reserve, etc.) supporting a contingency operations such as search and rescue, going to the clothing store to purchase uniforms, attending CAP meetings on base, etc. We are especially interested in access to AF bases but please include other (Air Guard, Natl Guard, Army, etc).
Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
I used to say to the Security Forces that I was just going to the CAP meeting and they would escort me to the hanger where we meet, but now that I have my ID Card I just show them it and they let me through.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 28, 2009, 08:21:45 PM
Quote from: Always Ready on May 28, 2009, 06:01:10 PMEverything that has been said on here thus far can easily obtained and verified via the internet, asking Pass and ID, or asking the guard at any base gate.
Part of free speech is know when to keep your mouth shut.
And hey, if you chose to exercise that right as well, we would be behind you 100%
>:D
Quote from: Smokey on May 28, 2009, 08:14:08 PM
Easy does it folks.....
As stated in my original post, the Base OG CC asked me to find out what other bases are doing. Again if you feel better about PM me, please do as many already have ( AND I THANK YOU).
This issue has come up before on this same base. Just recently for a mission on base, two CAP officers had no problem using CAP ID. One was made to wait 30 minutes before access was granted after he finally called the OG CC who chewed out the gate guard.
Other issues have included CAP members who are members of the flying club on base. One day CAP ID is OK, the next day or next guard shift it isn't. The OG CC was looking for some ideas.
As was pointed out, the Burger King worker and similiar have much less vetting than we do. We are at least fingerprinted and screeened by squadron members who hopefully use some common sense in allowing folks to join CAP.
As for the comments about restricting access due to CAP members shoplifting, acting wild, etc. Well, SHAME on them. But I don't see that as a real problem. How many CAP folks have done that stuff. It seems a bit overblown. Besides.....have you read about the stooopid stuff real AF folks have done?! Some of those 18 year old E1 & 2 (even higher) do real stoopid stuff all the time. Merely being a AF member does not automatically equal integrity and common sense. (no offense to RM & Kack!)
Smokey, here's my thoughts for you (and no, this isn't spooky - it's just procedure)..
First, the SF squadron may not be actively working the access agreement details to thier shift commanders. They have a lot of things going on, and CAP might not be on the radar screen. That's not a bad thing!!! But if there are issues, they are very easy to fix - in friendly ways...
If there are inconsistancies between what you have worked out with the OG CC and the gate folks, don't fret. I would make an appointment with the OG CC (Or thier rep), go through the current policy to make sure everything is up to date on what the procedures are (and to get some good face time with them). Maybe there are new rules that need to be put in place? If adjustments need to be made, go ahead and work them. When that's complete, make a stop over to SF, introduce yourself to the CC (or the Asst CC) and see what can be clarified.
That's it. I'm always amazed by what can be accomplished with a personal, friendly visit, as opposed to squirming about what could be or might be. The SFS guys will appreciate you taking your time to ask "Hey, we want to be good rule followers for you, what do I need to do?" (i.e. how can I make your job easier). The OG will appreciate your proactiveness and the same - and will have a seed planted that "Those CAP folks are a good group"
THAT's how you become one of those folks that make things happen!!! :)
Trust me when I say that CAP members are the least of thier concerns. You wouldn't believe what they have to put up with on a regular basis.
Quote from: Captainbob441 on May 28, 2009, 08:33:51 PM
Quote from: Smokey on May 28, 2009, 08:14:08 PMOther issues have included CAP members who are members of the flying club on base. One day CAP ID is OK, the next day or next guard shift it isn't. The OG CC was looking for some ideas.
I've run into this problem a few times myself. I typically enter through the bases main gate, never had an issue. Though sometimes I try the other gates depending on if they are closer to where I need to get to and its about 50/50. All depending on who the guard is that day. Some know about CAP and will let you through no hassel, others will sit there for 5 minutes or more (YMMV) while they decided to let you through or not.
There's no rule at our base telling CAP to specifically go through the main gate, but the guards seem a bit more well trained as thats also the gate that visitors are required to go through. And if you are a visitor, heh then good luck getting in, because you won't. Not unless you are sponsored by someone who works at the base ops center.
Asking every gate to identify you can be a bit tricky, especially since most bases are manned by civilians (who actually managed to care less than the E-3 that used to stand there). Since most bases have a designated gate for visitors, they are
usually a little bit better versed in what is going on.
So aside from working out your EAL with the host base, you would probably have better luck focusing on accessing a particular gate. Better to have 100% with one gate than 25% success with 4 gates.
Well the OG CC is the one who asked me to find out....he is frustrated believe it or not with things.
A couple years ago it straigtened out when a contract guard wanted to arrest me for impersonating a military officer ( I was in a flight suit with CAP photo ID- my base ID expired the week before). The base Gen (Maj Gen) straightened things out for a while. New folks now including new DOD police gate guards. Since then it has been hit & miss. A talk with a security forces master sergeant ended with him sighing and shaking his head about the DOD gate guards.
That's why the OG CC wants to see what's happening elsewhere to see how he can set up a reasonable policy.
Can you talk to the DoD Guards? Surely they have some form of a Chain of Command (besides their union rep).
Quote from: Eclipse on May 28, 2009, 08:21:45 PM
Quote from: Always Ready on May 28, 2009, 06:01:10 PMEverything that has been said on here thus far can easily obtained and verified via the internet, asking Pass and ID, or asking the guard at any base gate.
Perhaps, but that doesn't mean we have to say it, so that when the media does the same Google'ing, CAPTalk is the first link.
It doesn't need to be a violation of anything to be a bad idea to discuss a particular subject.
Part of free speech is know when to keep your mouth shut.
So we spend more time complaining than actually solving problems?
(RANT)
When you think you are qualified to armchair my job, stop by my office and I'll turn over the USM and OPSEC Officer keys to you. I'm telling you this is basic procedure that I work with every day. My signatures go on the EAL and the base MOU which are posted on the wall for all to see - with the procedures. Only been doing it for 20 years now.
Maybe if some folks spent less time complaining about OPSEC and actually get involved with understanding it (i.e. have you read AFI 10-701?), we wouldn't be having this misunderstanding.
Please folks...Don't start getting into a urinating match over this.
I don't want to see this locked as I need real answers on how other bases handle it, not an arguement over whether we should have free access or other issues.
Please assist me in the endeavor that the base OG CC tasked me with. Again, please feel free to PM.
THis may end up assisting all of us in the long run. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Thanks for your assistance.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 28, 2009, 08:21:45 PM
Quote from: Always Ready on May 28, 2009, 06:01:10 PMEverything that has been said on here thus far can easily obtained and verified via the internet, asking Pass and ID, or asking the guard at any base gate.
Perhaps, but that doesn't mean we have to say it, so that when the media does the same Google'ing, CAPTalk is the first link.
It doesn't need to be a violation of anything to be a bad idea to discuss a particular subject.
Part of free speech is know when to keep your mouth shut.
Yes, and this is not one of those times.
Honestly, some people think everything is a secret.
This isn't.
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2009, 02:26:34 AM
Being retired military with an appropriate ID card, I DO NOT feel that CAP members should get access to a military base at all times & restrictions should be in place that all members understand & comply with.
I am also a retired military guy with a card, and I am far more comfortable with CAP members having access than most dependants.
I did a fair amount of time as the MP duty officer and we dealt with countless dependants who had difficulty behaving themselves but never once dealt with improper actions by a CAP member.
After all, CAP seniors undergo a fingerprint check - something never requred of dependants. And CAP members, at least, are providing valuable volunteer services for America.
Of course neither CAP members nor dependants should be just wandering around areas of bases where they have no lawful business.
But CAP members are no less trustworthy than many other classes of persons granted base access.
Ned Lee
We are housed on an Army Depot staffed by DLA police officers. CAP ID or drivers license is sufficient to get on base. We are also close to Travis AFB and the same conditions apply. As for BX privileges, buying anything at the uniform clothing store is acceptable with your CAP ID card. I've also made some purchases at the BX while staying overnight for SLS and TLC. I only bought personal needs items and just needed to show my card. I had my MTA with me just in case. Obviously if the threat condition is raised, you might be asked to show your drivers license along with CAP ID card. I bought the photo ID card just to help speed things up. Plus, it looks more official.
CAP Knowledgebase
Question
When trying to get on base to attend a meeting, I was told by one of the security forces officers that CAP members were considered a security threat and that is why we were given such a hard time when trying to get on base. Is this kind of treatment ever going to change for CAP members?
Answer
Sorry for the hassle. All military installations have increased security awareness and procedures since 9-11 with many restricting access to bases. Some security forces members do not realize that CAP members are part of the Air Force team making valuable contributions to the AF mission every day. Installation commanders are encouraged in AF instructions to support CAP activities and members, but may exercise their discretion in determining access to facilities and services by CAP members. You may wish to apply for a one day pass at "Vistor Pass & ID" for puposes of purchasing uniform and insignia items and also inquire about registering your vehicle with base Pass & ID. CAP ID, valid current vehicle registration, valid current proof of insurance coverage are required. If access to a base is a recurring problem, you should ask your unit commander to notify the CAP base liaison officer of the situation and ask for help to allow CAP members access to base facilities. Liaison by CAP with host installations and supporting units is critical for CAP to successfully plan and conduct activities. AF regulations require AF installation commanders to appoint a field grade officer to assist CAP and supporting Air Force units appoint a project officer to coordinate their support and involvement in activities. Commanders will provide the designee's name, rank, office symbol and telephone number to HQ CAP-USAF. Installation commanders will contact CAP-USAF liaison personnel directly to coordinate matters relating to the activity.
For additional details on the USAF-CAP relationship see paragraphs below from AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 10-2701 ORGANIZATION AND FUNCTION OF THE CIVIL AIR PATROL (Note: Link(s) will open a new browser window and leave this site.)
3.1.3. Liaison at Air Force Installations. Support from Air Force Installations is important for CAP to carry out its missions. Liaison activities at this level typically involve coordinating the use of facilities and services of the Installation. Installation commanders will appoint a field grade officer to assist CAP-USAF personnel and to act as a liaison with CAP units that are located on the Installation. Installation commanders will provide the designee's name, rank, office symbol and telephone number to CAP-USAF and will update this information annually. When providing short-term support to CAP units, Installation commanders may also designate a project officer to work with the CAP unit. Installation commanders will contact CAP-USAF liaison personnel directly to coordinate matters relating to CAP.
3.9. Installation Support. To carry out AFAMs, it is important that CAP personnel have access to adequate facilities and services. At their discretion and expense, Air Force Installation commanders may permit CAP to use Installation services and facilities. Long-term support may include designated CAP use of facilities and services. Short-term support may include temporary billeting, messing, and ground transportation for CAP activities. Installation commanders will coordinate with CAP-USAF before entering into any host Installation support agreements with CAP units or activities.
3.9.1. Long-term support. Air Force Installation commanders are encouraged to provide long-term support to CAP as the host organization for CAP units. CAP units typically do not have the operating funds to purchase or rent facilities and must negotiate for meeting and office space wherever possible. CAP units do not require the same support as typical Air Force units. When practicable, Installation commanders may make suitable facilities available for long-term use by CAP. CAP units will not be expected to reimburse Installations for long-term use facilities. 3.9.2. Short-term Support. Air Force Installations are encouraged to provide short-term support for temporary CAP activities. CAP activities in this category include cadet encampments, senior member training activities, flight clinics, and other flying related activities. These types of activities typically involve the use of various base facilities including billeting, messing, Morale Welfare and Recreation (MWR) or Non-Appropriated Fund (NAF) activities such as clubs, exchanges and theaters, and services including transportation. CAP may use Installation facilities and services that operate on a fee for service basis, such as messing and base billeting, at CAP member expense, when engaged in Installation-sponsored CAP activities.
3.9.3. Support Considerations. CAP units will be given priority for space on Air Force Installations immediately following Air Force, DoD, and Federal agencies, and ahead of youth groups such as scouting, or MWR activities such as hobby clubs or groups. Installations can arrange with CAP units to provide minor maintenance and housekeeping of the facility to defray associated costs of host-tenant support. If practicable, CAP units should be provided facilities with adequate administration, storage, and training space. Installation commanders with limited space may consider providing CAP units administrative space near common use facilities such as community centers, lecture halls, and other suitable training facilities. Installations with flight facilities should consider the need for ramp space for CAP aircraft or other flying related support or operating requirements.
3.15. Use of DoD Medical Facilities. CAP personnel incurring an injury or illness during an AFAM are entitled to limited military medical care in accordance with AFH 41-114, Military Health Services System (MHSS) Matrix. CAP personnel participating in an official function on a military Installation may be entitled to emergency medical care, like any other civilian, in accordance with AFH 41-114.
3.16. Use of Army and Air Force Exchange Service (AAFES) Facilities. In accordance with AFJI 34-210 (AR 60-20) Army and Air Force Exchange Service Operating Policies, Chapter 2-9, Paragraph (c)(4), CAP personnel, while participating in an AFAM, or official function on a military Installation and occupying government quarters, are entitled to the use of AAFES facilities and services if approved by the installation commander. Such use does not apply to CAP units and personnel attending unit meetings and other regularly scheduled corporate activities at a military Installation.
3.17. Installation Commander Discretion. To the extent allowed by law, installation commanders may exercise their discretion in determining whether access to facilities and services described in this instruction should be further limited.
What is an OG (I know what CC is)?
Quote from: Cecil DP on May 29, 2009, 12:14:15 AM
What is an OG (I know what CC is)?
Operations Group
Quote from: Ned on May 28, 2009, 10:18:56 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on May 28, 2009, 02:26:34 AM
Being retired military with an appropriate ID card, I DO NOT feel that CAP members should get access to a military base at all times & restrictions should be in place that all members understand & comply with.
I am also a retired military guy with a card, and I am far more comfortable with CAP members having access than most dependants.
I did a fair amount of time as the MP duty officer and we dealt with countless dependants who had difficulty behaving themselves but never once dealt with improper actions by a CAP member.
After all, CAP seniors undergo a fingerprint check - something never requred of dependants. And CAP members, at least, are providing valuable volunteer services for America.
Of course neither CAP members nor dependants should be just wandering around areas of bases where they have no lawful business.
But CAP members are no less trustworthy than many other classes of persons granted base access.
Ned Lee
Yeah I tend to agree. The fact is that dependent kids get unrestricted access and cause a lot more trouble (shoplifting, general screwing around) than a member of CAP.
Not to mention, I don't think anyone here is suggesting "unrestricted" access for CAP Members. My understanding is we're discussing getting on base for legitimate CAP Functions or to purchase uniform items. Those are pretty restricted.
I have found that when I need to acccess the bx for uniform items, I don't have any problems even though I am from another squadron and don't meet on the base. I understand we are permited base access to get uniform itmes and accessories at any time correct? Is there a limit of times we can get on for this type of thing, like once or month etc?
Quote from: 2ltAlexD on May 30, 2009, 02:06:03 AM
I have found that when I need to acccess the bx for uniform items, I don't have any problems even though I am from another squadron and don't meet on the base. I understand we are permited base access to get uniform itmes and accessories at any time correct? Is there a limit of times we can get on for this type of thing, like once or month etc?
Nope, no limit...