Comms question - reporting a find over the radio?

[321EOD]

Are there any specific guidelines on how best to do this?

ie: I'm not sure that this works on an 'open' net

"Base this is groundpounder, I've found the aircraft with no survivors at xx xx xxNorth   yy yy yySouth"

Is this something that would normally be in a comm plan? would we have codewords issued?

Thanks

[arajca]

It would be discussed in the incident comm plan. Code words are prohibited by regulation.

You would be discrete - "Target located at ###.##.##N ###.##.##S." If you need medical assistance, add "request medical support to this location."

This would mean that the base notifies the local SAR/EMS types to help. They would also coordinate what channel to use when communicating with the local SAR/EMS types.

[SarDragon]

We generally leave off the degrees on the lat/long, and do the rest as decimal degrees, or use a grid reference. Not perfect, but functional.

[davidsinn]

I would send: "Target located will call mission base on cell phone to pass coordinates." If no cell service I'd pass just enough info to get the message across but not too much that a scanner junkie could send the press or alert the family before a chaplain could get to them.

[RiverAux]

Wait till we start using encryption on our radio systems (its apparently going to happen relatively soon) and this won't be an issue. 

Trying to "hide" the find doesn't really work in my opinion.  We're going to be reporting it immediately to other authorities and in my experience they're so leaky the local media is going to get that info from them soon anyway. 

[davidsinn]

Wait till we start using encryption on our radio systems (its apparently going to happen relatively soon) and this won't be an issue. 

Trying to "hide" the find doesn't really work in my opinion.  We're going to be reporting it immediately to other authorities and in my experience they're so leaky the local media is going to get that info from them soon anyway.

If they leak it, then they leak it. At least it won't be our fault then.

[SarMaster]

I dont understand the big 'Secret' in our find transmittions....most Police / Fire / EMS are not coded and they transmit every day with no issues?

[Flying Pig]

In SAR missions at work we are not encrypted.  When we find a victim, we get on the radio and say what we have.  "Victim located 11-44 (deceased) identity confirmed.  Stand by for Lat/Long."
Your base personnel should be smart enough to keep family away from the radios.  If the family is smart enough to get their own radio, then they need to be prepared for what they may hear.  Talking in codes for SAR is silly.  Because all the family/media/etc. is going to do is knock down the IC's door demanding to know what "Code funky monkey" means.  And when they see people start grabbing their gear and getting in their cars and driving away, they are going to figure it out. 

Not everything is a secret, no matter how bad some of us may want it to be.  Who knows, maybe Im doing it wrong??

[arajca]

If you came on and said 11-44, I'd take that as the time you located the victim. 11-44 is your code for deceased. It is not standard. Which is why NIMS and ICS require clear language radio traffic.

[Flying Pig]

Its standard in CA Law Enforcement for a dead person.  In regards to codes, there isn't a reporter in CA who doesn't know what 11-44 means.  Type 11-44 into google and it comes right up. There was an effort years ago to standardize it state wide for everything, but agencies still have their own "special" codes.
An agency I worked for used "10-36 for What time is it" my current agency uses "10-36 for Your suspect has a felony warrant"  So there can definitely be confusion if you arent standard.
Yes, its a code, but when we use 11-44 we aren't concerned about OPSEC.  11-44 is better than "Yeah, I found the victim with head trauma, appears to be a 3 inch laceration, rigor mortis, blah blah blah."  There are a lot of cops who just say deceased.  Where I am, Fresno PD uses plain talk in all radio transmissions, and the Sheriff is strict with 10 and 11 codes. 
We use NIMS and ICS all the time and still use 10 and 11 codes.   Im sure someone from CAP will school us eventually   In emergencies, we talk in plan language.

[heliodoc]

CAP ought to reserve its comments about others UNTIL the organization is truly one standardized operation in ALL facets throughout 52 Wings.

Until then, CAP and its Super Secret Squirrel Stuff really doesn't hold much water,

Encryption is AF stuff NOT CAP stuff and until CAP can get over its "Secret Missions" then I MIGHT partake in their thinking.  CAP really has to get over its secret VOLUNTEER missions.  CAP may call itself professionals, but there are times I see CAP running around like Keystone Kops in animated emergency mode flipping on lights and wearing combat rigs

SO CAP gets your NIMS ICS on an leave the professionals sort their missions out.  They have a PAID mission to do and I agree clear text.  But then I understand CAP has about 55,000 personal opinions and missions called agendas.

That is probably why I respect the posters here who actually do this on day to day to keep CAP honest

[RiverAux]

Encryption is AF stuff NOT CAP stuff

Wrong.  The AF WANTS CAP to start using it on AFAMs as soon as we can get our radio system ready for it. 

[RicL]

That will require us to have keyloaders or PC's with EFJohnson's software keyloader and the appropriate cables for the radios.

Generally, there are two ways to load keys into most modern radios. The keys can be loaded as persistant keys which should stay with the radio through power cycles, battery being removed, basic radio servicing / frequency updates or you can have a non-persistant key which is blanked when any of those tasks are performed. I can tell you from experience with Motorola's commercial equipment (on which the 5300 series is based, it even uses the same physical hardware keyloader, the Motorola T3011DX or the KVL3000) that even persistant keys have a habit of just going.. *poof* and you lose the ability to RX/TX secure.

We'll cross that rusty, decrepit bridge when we come to it. As it stands right now it looks like I might have issues even getting the EFJ 5300 that I own programmed with CAP frequencies. Forget the requirement for a ROP, ROA, etc. It seems that the ONLY person in the wing with a copy of the frequency list and proper P25 settings is the wing director of comm's. Even the group comm officer doesn't have any access whatsoever. I'll probably have to make a trip to him to get it done because I doubt he'd be able to program it if I sent it to him. My particular personally owned 5300 is a model with a handheld control head as opposed to a dash mount radio and uses a different programming cable set and software. PIC HERE if you want to see what I mean.

I can understand FOUO, but this borders on TS/SCI.

[Flying Pig]

I cant wait to see the price tag for encrypting CAP.  Most LE agencies cant even afford it.

[RicL]

I cant wait to see the price tag for encrypting CAP.  Most LE agencies cant even afford it.

I suspect that if it's a request by the AF for AFAM's that the funding will come from their funds, like the majority of the funding for the new compliant repeaters. Funding will be the least of the issues with going secure. The first hurdle will be security of the keys themselves and the keyloading hardware and still having it available to readily re-key a radio, that's the biggest weak link in the chain.

Anyway, I think we're probably bordering on off-topic.

[RiverAux]

My wing already has the equipment that is encryption capable in our planes so I suspect that this is the case elsewhere.  The next step, as Rick implies, is to start using the keys.  We just recently got briefed on this by wing dir of comms.  FYI, he didn't give an exact timeline, but implied it would be within a year or two. 

[arajca]

Most CAP a/c do not have encryption capable radios. This is one issue National is working on with the AF. Except for the first generation radios (the MD series mobiles - serials start ####MD), all the EF Johnsons are encryption capable. All of the new repeaters are also encryption capable. Encryption capable means they just need the keys programmed, the necessary software/hardward is already installed.

The next step is not to start using the keys, it is to develop a plan for using the keys. Followed by getting the equipment identified in the plan (I think the AF may help with that one). Then using the keys.

[RiverAux]

The next step is not to start using the keys, it is to develop a plan for using the keys. Followed by getting the equipment identified in the plan (I think the AF may help with that one). Then using the keys.

Details, details...

[321EOD]

HELP! - my post has been highjacked as an 'encryption discussion' 

My take away from this is:

It is ok to report a find over the radio 'in clear' but give the minimum detail required to communicate the situation. Allow Mission Base/IC to ask the questions if more info is needed.

Sound good?

[RiverAux]

The takeaway is that you do it however you are briefed before the flight as there is no set standard. 

[arajca]

The takeaway is that you do it however you are briefed before the flight as there is no set standard.

For the non-flyboys, change 'flight' to 'sortie'.

[Flying Pig]

HELP! - my post has been highjacked as an 'encryption discussion' 

My take away from this is:

It is ok to report a find over the radio 'in clear' but give the minimum detail required to communicate the situation. Allow Mission Base/IC to ask the questions if more info is needed.

Sound good?

As someone who does this for a living, I would say your right on.

[SarMaster]

Hey Guys...We are already using crypto...  and yes we have keyloaders, and OTAR Modems!!

[SarMaster]

HELP! - my post has been highjacked as an 'encryption discussion' 

My take away from this is:

It is ok to report a find over the radio 'in clear' but give the minimum detail required to communicate the situation. Allow Mission Base/IC to ask the questions if more info is needed.

Sound good?

As someone who does this for a living, I would say your right on.

I agree...Too many times the CAP Radio turns into a HAM net.  Just give me the meat and potatoes of the message.  Too many times we go on and on about stuff that should be short and sweet. 

[RiverAux]

There is a letter about CAP radio encryption issues at the top of the new items list in eservices if anyone is interested. 

[lordmonar]

HELP! - my post has been highjacked as an 'encryption discussion' 

My take away from this is:

It is ok to report a find over the radio 'in clear' but give the minimum detail required to communicate the situation. Allow Mission Base/IC to ask the questions if more info is needed.

Sound good?

Not only is it okay....but you must send it in the clear.  I would simply report that you found the target and the wait for Mission Base to ask for details.....assuming you don't request immediate medical assitance.

If there are no immediate life saving actions need to be taken......set your perimiter and wait for the cops/NTSB to arrive and take control of the site.

[RicL]

There is a letter about CAP radio encryption issues at the top of the new items list in eservices if anyone is interested.

Good catch, I hadn't noticed it and that's some freaky timing. Maybe I should wave to Maj Gen Courter.. *waves*

[Johnny Yuma]

If any of you are ground pounders, this is an Epic Fail on NHQ's ES people.

Go find a copy of the Mission BAse Staff Task book and look up L-0009, reporting a clue or find. In there it give details to send a Sierra reportwhen you stumble across stuff, like clues, downed aircraft, dead bodies, etc.

Now compare all the Comm related tasks in that book against the GT book. Notice things like steps to regain comm, radio checks, etc. aren't in the GT book. Well, they used to be until 2005 when the brains(?) at Soggy Bottom AFB, Alabama changed it.