At What Rank Can You Give Orders

Started by CAPed Crusader, January 03, 2019, 12:02:09 AM

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CAPed Crusader

Hello,
For Cadets, at what rank can a cadet give orders/commands to another cadet? In my squadron, our current highest ranking cadet is a Cadet Chief Master Sargent, so would this change anything?

Also I can't find the regulations to this?

[I'm a C/A1C and I've been put in command when our high ranking leaders were not there for a meeting. Is that different compared to other Squadrons?]

Sincerely,
Cadet DeRosa

Anthony@CAP

There isn't going to be a hard and fast rule here, and your squadron leadership will be able to provide the best answer.

But generally, the ability to give orders/commands are limited to what has been delegated down by higher authorities. If you are unsure what your limits are in a given situation, you should just ask the person who put you in charge. If you aren't comfortable or are unsure, it's a good sign you should ask.

Additionally, you are always limited to the authorities granted by regulations; so if you are delegated command authority you can't order something that contravenes the regulations, and subordinates shouldn't follow those orders if you do (instead they should consult you or a higher authority with their concern).

CAPed Crusader

Thank you for your response and explanation!  :-)  I will get in touch with my squadron! Happy New Year!

coudano

You can give a command on your first day.

There might not be anybody listening, or obeying... but that alone doesn't really stop you from proclaiming commands.



MSG Mac

if given a position or task, you have the authority to carry out the duties of that position or task.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

lordmonar

Okay.....a chance for a little leadership lesson.


Authority (the ability to give orders) comes from three sources.

Line.
Staff.
Function.

Line Authority is the chain of command.   C/AB X belongs to an Element Leader, who belongs to a flight sergeant, who belongs to a flight commander, etc et al.

Staff Authority is the based upon grade and rank.   All Generals can order around all cols and all cols can order around Lt Cols and so forth.

Functional Authority is based upon your job.   The Safety Officer can order you to do something when it is related to safety.

In a perfect world these forms of authority never come into conflict.   But we don't live in a perfect world.

Basically  Line authority trumps staff authority.   For example your C/SSgt Element Leader tells you to do something and some random C/MSgt (not in your chain of command) tells you to do something different....you do what your Element Leader told you to do.
Likewise functional authority generally trumps staff authority.
Staff authority only comes into play when and if it does not come into conflict with the chain of command and functional authority.

So.....at what rank can you give orders?    The answer is C/AB can give orders to those under him in the chain of command (line authority) to those he out ranks by Time In Grade/Time In Service (Staff Authority) and if appointed to a particular function to anyone when it is related to accomplishing his appointed function. 

So......a C/A1C is appointed to take over for the C/MSgt (the Flight Sgt let's say) so you are now the Flight Sgt.....and you are top dog in the chain of command....even if there are C/SSgt and C/TSgt under you.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: lordmonar on January 03, 2019, 05:03:07 AM
Okay.....a chance for a little leadership lesson.


Authority (the ability to give orders) comes from three sources.

Line.
Staff.
Function.

Line Authority is the chain of command.   C/AB X belongs to an Element Leader, who belongs to a flight sergeant, who belongs to a flight commander, etc et al.

Staff Authority is the based upon grade and rank.   All Generals can order around all cols and all cols can order around Lt Cols and so forth.

Functional Authority is based upon your job.   The Safety Officer can order you to do something when it is related to safety.

In a perfect world these forms of authority never come into conflict.   But we don't live in a perfect world.

Basically  Line authority trumps staff authority.   For example your C/SSgt Element Leader tells you to do something and some random C/MSgt (not in your chain of command) tells you to do something different....you do what your Element Leader told you to do.
Likewise functional authority generally trumps staff authority.
Staff authority only comes into play when and if it does not come into conflict with the chain of command and functional authority.

So.....at what rank can you give orders?    The answer is C/AB can give orders to those under him in the chain of command (line authority) to those he out ranks by Time In Grade/Time In Service (Staff Authority) and if appointed to a particular function to anyone when it is related to accomplishing his appointed function. 

So......a C/A1C is appointed to take over for the C/MSgt (the Flight Sgt let's say) so you are now the Flight Sgt.....and you are top dog in the chain of command....even if there are C/SSgt and C/TSgt under you.

Love this explanation. I'm stealing it.

CAPed Crusader

Quote from: lordmonar on January 03, 2019, 05:03:07 AM
Okay.....a chance for a little leadership lesson.


Authority (the ability to give orders) comes from three sources.

Line.
Staff.
Function.

Line Authority is the chain of command.   C/AB X belongs to an Element Leader, who belongs to a flight sergeant, who belongs to a flight commander, etc et al.

Staff Authority is the based upon grade and rank.   All Generals can order around all cols and all cols can order around Lt Cols and so forth.

Functional Authority is based upon your job.   The Safety Officer can order you to do something when it is related to safety.

In a perfect world these forms of authority never come into conflict.   But we don't live in a perfect world.

Basically  Line authority trumps staff authority.   For example your C/SSgt Element Leader tells you to do something and some random C/MSgt (not in your chain of command) tells you to do something different....you do what your Element Leader told you to do.
Likewise functional authority generally trumps staff authority.
Staff authority only comes into play when and if it does not come into conflict with the chain of command and functional authority.

So.....at what rank can you give orders?    The answer is C/AB can give orders to those under him in the chain of command (line authority) to those he out ranks by Time In Grade/Time In Service (Staff Authority) and if appointed to a particular function to anyone when it is related to accomplishing his appointed function. 

So......a C/A1C is appointed to take over for the C/MSgt (the Flight Sgt let's say) so you are now the Flight Sgt.....and you are top dog in the chain of command....even if there are C/SSgt and C/TSgt under you.


THANK YOU SO MUCH! WE NEED MORE LEADERS LIKE YOU IN THE WORLD!

JayT

WhT aspects of postive leadership traits did that post demonstrate?
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

CAPed Crusader

Quote from: JayT on January 03, 2019, 10:58:44 PM
WhT aspects of postive leadership traits did that post demonstrate?

The fact that is was somewhat a leadership lesson, with good information about CAP. I'd rather not argue, I made a compliment, let's just leave it at that.

LSThiker

Quote from: francisderosa16 on January 04, 2019, 12:26:24 AM
Quote from: JayT on January 03, 2019, 10:58:44 PM
WhT aspects of postive leadership traits did that post demonstrate?

The fact that is was somewhat a leadership lesson, with good information about CAP. I'd rather not argue, I made a compliment, let's just leave it at that.

JayT is not trying to argue with you, rather asking a follow-up question for your leadership development.  That is, what traits of positive leadership--e.g., integrity, honesty, decision-making, inspiring others, etc with more buzz-wordiness --did the post demonstrate?

CAPed Crusader

Quote from: LSThiker on January 04, 2019, 02:31:59 PM
Quote from: francisderosa16 on January 04, 2019, 12:26:24 AM
Quote from: JayT on January 03, 2019, 10:58:44 PM
WhT aspects of postive leadership traits did that post demonstrate?

The fact that is was somewhat a leadership lesson, with good information about CAP. I'd rather not argue, I made a compliment, let's just leave it at that.

JayT is not trying to argue with you, rather asking a follow-up question for your leadership development.  That is, what traits of positive leadership--e.g., integrity, honesty, decision-making, inspiring others, etc with more buzz-wordiness --did the post demonstrate?
Oh, sorry, I did not pick up on that.

lordmonar

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 03, 2019, 03:39:31 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on January 03, 2019, 05:03:07 AM
Okay.....a chance for a little leadership lesson.


Authority (the ability to give orders) comes from three sources.

Line.
Staff.
Function.

Line Authority is the chain of command.   C/AB X belongs to an Element Leader, who belongs to a flight sergeant, who belongs to a flight commander, etc et al.

Staff Authority is the based upon grade and rank.   All Generals can order around all cols and all cols can order around Lt Cols and so forth.

Functional Authority is based upon your job.   The Safety Officer can order you to do something when it is related to safety.

In a perfect world these forms of authority never come into conflict.   But we don't live in a perfect world.

Basically  Line authority trumps staff authority.   For example your C/SSgt Element Leader tells you to do something and some random C/MSgt (not in your chain of command) tells you to do something different....you do what your Element Leader told you to do.
Likewise functional authority generally trumps staff authority.
Staff authority only comes into play when and if it does not come into conflict with the chain of command and functional authority.

So.....at what rank can you give orders?    The answer is C/AB can give orders to those under him in the chain of command (line authority) to those he out ranks by Time In Grade/Time In Service (Staff Authority) and if appointed to a particular function to anyone when it is related to accomplishing his appointed function. 

So......a C/A1C is appointed to take over for the C/MSgt (the Flight Sgt let's say) so you are now the Flight Sgt.....and you are top dog in the chain of command....even if there are C/SSgt and C/TSgt under you.

Love this explanation. I'm stealing it.
Feel free.   I wish this lesson was more clearly spelled out in our CAP leadership manuals.   Especially as CAP has so many instances where line/staff/functional authority come into conflict.     
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Idkreally

On this note what do you do if youre 3rd highest ranking (im the same ranks as my 1st/sgt at C/Msgt) and leader roles are given to people below you who arent NCOs

jeders

Quote from: Idkreally on January 19, 2019, 09:51:20 PM
On this note what do you do if youre 3rd highest ranking (im the same ranks as my 1st/sgt at C/Msgt) and leader roles are given to people below you who arent NCOs

Salute and execute as appropriate.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Idkreally


Shawn W.

First work on gaining respect of your peers. Worry about giving/issuing command and directives later.

The definition of Leadership as I learned it as a Cadet:

The art of influencing and directing people in a way the wins their kindness, respect and loyal cooperation in achieving a common objective.

Shawn W.

Quote from: lordmonar on January 03, 2019, 05:03:07 AM
Okay.....a chance for a little leadership lesson.


Authority (the ability to give orders) comes from three sources.

Line.
Staff.
Function.

Line Authority is the chain of command.   C/AB X belongs to an Element Leader, who belongs to a flight sergeant, who belongs to a flight commander, etc et al.

Staff Authority is the based upon grade and rank.   All Generals can order around all cols and all cols can order around Lt Cols and so forth.

Functional Authority is based upon your job.   The Safety Officer can order you to do something when it is related to safety.

In a perfect world these forms of authority never come into conflict.   But we don't live in a perfect world.

Basically  Line authority trumps staff authority.   For example your C/SSgt Element Leader tells you to do something and some random C/MSgt (not in your chain of command) tells you to do something different....you do what your Element Leader told you to do.
Likewise functional authority generally trumps staff authority.
Staff authority only comes into play when and if it does not come into conflict with the chain of command and functional authority.

So.....at what rank can you give orders?    The answer is C/AB can give orders to those under him in the chain of command (line authority) to those he out ranks by Time In Grade/Time In Service (Staff Authority) and if appointed to a particular function to anyone when it is related to accomplishing his appointed function. 

So......a C/A1C is appointed to take over for the C/MSgt (the Flight Sgt let's say) so you are now the Flight Sgt.....and you are top dog in the chain of command....even if there are C/SSgt and C/TSgt under you.

+1

Im stealing this too.. Well put and thank you for taking the time to expalin it.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Idkreally on January 19, 2019, 10:04:45 PM
Even if theyre a C/Sra being rude?

If the C/SrA steps out of line, address it with their Flight Sergeant.

If the C/SrA steps out of line and it requires immediate correction right then, address it with that cadet. Then, go talk to the Flight Sergeant.

Don't discipline someone else's report unless it's an immediate crisis (safety matter or inappropriate conduct). Always go to the person's superior to let them know about the incident.

OldGuy

Quote from: Idkreally on January 19, 2019, 10:04:45 PM
Even if theyre a C/Sra being rude?
1 - rude is a 'subjective' term and without context here,
2 - the short answer is "yes" if it is a legal order,
3 - if there is an issue, politely and privately address that first with the order giver, if that fails then to your joint superior at the lowest level (flight sergeant or first sergeant), again with manners and in private.

Why "yes"? First you may have misinterpreted the 'rude' part, and second you are learning - and getting the "taking orders" side of having a "jerk" as a supervisor is, in fact, a learning experience. For both sides, btw.

Good luck as you grow in experience and wisdom, may your cadet career be filled with gentle tailwinds and lead to a wonderful life as an adult.