Squadron commander term limit?

Started by cadet zimmerman, January 21, 2011, 11:58:26 PM

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Eclipse

Yes, and for every one who is a hero, there are 2 or 3 who set up a little fiefdom and/or ran a flying club for a decade or two.

"That Others May Zoom"

JeffDG

Quote from: Eclipse on January 23, 2011, 02:22:02 AM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 23, 2011, 02:18:28 AM
I don't think there needs to be any term limits on commanders UNLESS there's an indicator that there's a problem in the unit.
e.g. fails sui's, no new recruits, high turnover of senior members, no progression of seniors and cadets, many complaints.

So no new ideas?  No opportunity for someone else to do the job?

Just let somebody park themselves for 20 years?
I've never really understood term limits...why stop someone who is doing a good job from continuing to do that job?

JeffDG

Quote from: Eclipse on January 23, 2011, 05:19:58 AM
Yes, and for every one who is a hero, there are 2 or 3 who set up a little fiefdom and/or ran a flying club for a decade or two.

Sooooo....

Instead of dealing with the abusive ones, you want to punish those who do great jobs.  That's just being lazy not wanting to actually look at performance and lump everyone together and presume they're all on the worst side.

a2capt

Well, if a policy is in place and it has a clause of exemption, then that takes care of both. The exemplary performers can be allowed to stay, and the others can be phased out.

JeffDG

Quote from: a2capt on January 23, 2011, 03:50:36 PM
Well, if a policy is in place and it has a clause of exemption, then that takes care of both. The exemplary performers can be allowed to stay, and the others can be phased out.

But without such a policy, the same objective can be achieved.  Wing Commander can appoint a new CC and voila, deadwood is gone.

Term limit policies come from the assumption that everyone is deadwood.

PHall

From what I've seen, usually about the time you complete 4 years as a Commander you're ready for a change.

Major Carrales

Quote from: PHall on January 23, 2011, 05:31:34 PM
From what I've seen, usually about the time you complete 4 years as a Commander you're ready for a change.

I agree, I did almost 4 years as the Commander of the Corpus Christi Comp Squadron and I felt it was a good experience.  We built up an old squadron that had some three active members into a good operational unit that can implement the Missions of CAP in an effective manner.  The time, however, does come for a commander to "spread the wealth" as it were.  To give someone else a chance.  Now I command a cadet unit we "budded" off of the former squadron. 

Now there is time to build, and when the time comes, I am sure it will be time for me to move on to build another unit in the area.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Major Carrales

Quote from: Eclipse on January 22, 2011, 02:45:30 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on January 22, 2011, 04:37:19 AM
Next question - why are you questioning CC's terms and PT policies of your new unit publicly?
Where did he "question" any such policy?  He just asked if there was one. 

And even if he did "question" his wing's policy in this area, so what?  Thats what we do here all the time.

This is called "reading between the lines", which is what most people here did immediately on his rapid-fire posts.

First about CC term limits, second about PT schedules.  Once you've been doing this a while you can see the patterns.

Ahhh...the infamous CAPTALK double standard.  You see, when and if I were to make such a speculation you would be all over me for it saying "I didn't say that" or you would  mock any attempt by me to "head off" where the logical flow of the discussion is going.  However, a select few can get away with any and everything here.  Dirty football, indeed!!!

This is also the class "dogpile on a cadet" tendency that I see here and on other forums.

Let's keep it fair here people.

The cadet can have a question without some sinister motive...give the cadet the benefit of the doubt.   Maybe he/she was curious?  Maybe he wanted to look at the regulations to better understand how it works?  An, just maybe, this cadet has read posting and tried to ask a question in the "style" of those that so many others have asked.

"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Major Lord

Is excessive time in the command slot more of a problem than trying to find someone willing ( and competent) to accept the job?

Major Lord
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

RiverAux

I refuse to believe that there is any place in the country where it is absolutely impossible to find a competent CAP member able and willing to take over for some of these commanders that have been in the job for 10+ years.  My suspicion has been that those long-terms don't really want to give up the job and subtly drive drive away folks with potential leadership qualities.  Those folks are are a rarity as most squadron commanders only last 2-4 years anyway and that being the case, a fixed term limit probably isn't necessary. 

But, the one advantage to very hard defined squadron commander term limits is that I think it actually makes it easier to get people to do the job.  If they know for a fact that they're only going to do it for 2-3 years, they might take it while under the current system they don't really know if they're going to do it for 6 months or 10 years.  This lack of certainity over when the term ended was one of the biggest factors that almost made me turn down a chance at squadron command. 

I think the current system makes squadron commanders anxious to try to turn the squadron over to the first person that shows some capability even if they're very new to CAP because they don't want to miss their chance to get out of the job. 

The CG Aux, which has a 1 year term with potential for 1 year extension (future terms possible after a break) seems to work pretty good.  However, this short a term probably wouldn't work for CAP since CAP squadron command is infinately more complicated and difficult to learn than running a CG Aux flotilla.  You really need more time to learn to run a squadron correctly.

Major Carrales

We had countless great leaders in our unit's history, the problem was that these people "burnt" out because they were working alone without a staff.  If one approaches the idea of a squadron commander as a person who is there to "shoulder the burden alone" while the unit members show up only to fly...of course you are gonna have problems (especially if its a Composite squadron with cadet issues to deal with along with senior member issues).

In building our unit, it was key to insure that the unit "staff" was functional.  That the commander was more of a "manager" guiding subject matter experts, or experts in training, than a person doing it all.  We should heed the examples made present in the Incident Command System where span of control and unity of command demonstrate that a 1 to 5 ratio is most efficient in allowing excellent control of a situation.  A squadron has to operate in this way, the command well informed and made so by having staff members who support the unit.

In this way, a potential commander has an excellent support system. 

In units where the commander is alone workhorse, handling it by themselves; it can look like a horrible complicated job, foreboding and burdensome.  In fact, when I first joined, that is how I looked at it.  "I'll never want to command a unit..." I recall telling another member.  Then, it was thrust on me back in 2003...I failed at it because I tried to "be an island."  In 2006, after have been burnt out and disgusted by it all for a short hiatus, I returned and we built the unit based on having a staff.  It worked, the current commander of that unit has an excellent staff that come through every time.  That...my dear friends... is the key to Squadron Command.  Not fancy computer software alone(which helps), but a solid staff able to concentrate on the minutia. 

"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Eclipse

Quote from: JeffDG on January 23, 2011, 05:22:54 PM
But without such a policy, the same objective can be achieved.  Wing Commander can appoint a new CC and voila, deadwood is gone.

Term limit policies come from the assumption that everyone is deadwood.

Without a policy in place, in many cases attention is never paid to the issue.

As an FYI - everyone is deadwood.  No one can stay in a CAP command position for a prolonged period of time without stangnating themselves, and / or limiting the progression of others.

No.

Body.

"That Others May Zoom"

Major Carrales

#32
Quote from: Eclipse on January 24, 2011, 12:58:21 AMAs an FYI - everyone is deadwood.  No one can stay in a CAP command position for a prolonged period of time without stangnating themselves, and / or limiting the progression of others.

This is true...I have scarified some of my own personal advancement for the squadron.  Which is why I am not Lt Col Carrales or a Master Public Affairs Officer.  It is a side effect of of Command and a full time job. 
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

SarDragon

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 24, 2011, 01:09:55 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 24, 2011, 12:58:21 AMAs an FYI - everyone is deadwood.  No one can stay in a CAP command position for a prolonged period of time without stangnating themselves, and / or limiting the progression of others.

This is true...I have scarified some of my own personal advancement for the squadron.  Which is why I am not Lt Col Carrales or a Master Public Affairs Officer.  It is a side effect of of Command and a full time job.

Scarified? Did you bleed a lot?
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Major Carrales

Quote from: SarDragon on January 24, 2011, 01:36:37 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 24, 2011, 01:09:55 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 24, 2011, 12:58:21 AMAs an FYI - everyone is deadwood.  No one can stay in a CAP command position for a prolonged period of time without stangnating themselves, and / or limiting the progression of others.

This is true...I have scarified some of my own personal advancement for the squadron.  Which is why I am not Lt Col Carrales or a Master Public Affairs Officer.  It is a side effect of of Command and a full time job.

Scarified? Did you bleed a lot?

It only hurt when I laughed!
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

RiverAux

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 24, 2011, 12:32:38 AM
In building our unit, it was key to insure that the unit "staff" was functional.  That the commander was more of a "manager" guiding subject matter experts, or experts in training, than a person doing it all. 
I actually had a great staff that took care of most of the time consuming stuff but even with that great support system, I don't see many CAP commanders who don't get burnt out after 2-3 years anyway.  I can't imagine how bad it would have been without a couple of those folks taking up a lot of the burden.

Major Carrales

Quote from: RiverAux on January 24, 2011, 02:55:39 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 24, 2011, 12:32:38 AM
In building our unit, it was key to insure that the unit "staff" was functional.  That the commander was more of a "manager" guiding subject matter experts, or experts in training, than a person doing it all. 
I actually had a great staff that took care of most of the time consuming stuff but even with that great support system, I don't see many CAP commanders who don't get burnt out after 2-3 years anyway.  I can't imagine how bad it would have been without a couple of those folks taking up a lot of the burden.

Believe me, it is not a good thing to see.  It is almost in stages.  A person come and is passionate about CAP, they take command, are alone...GROUP and WING start demanding reports and thing start to build up, then there are those certain members who "give heck" no matter what.  It eats at them until they start to wretch at the sight of the uniform.  In then end...they leave CAP and some, unfortunately, almost become "anti-CAP."

Having marinaded in the "worst" of it, petty politics, strain and all the "bad" that get reported here from time to time...is it not a wonder.

However, a properly running squadron with a Staff is a joy to command.  There is camaraderie, the desire to work together and even fellowship.  I would recommend we build the latter squadron than the former of this example.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

ColonelJack

I know nobody was actually asking for an opinion on the topic or anything, but ...

I was a squadron commander for six years.  The first three or four were absolutely wonderful, as I had the kind of staff most CCs only dream of.  But the last two years were tough ... most of my good people drifted into other things, as folks will do, and I found myself having to be more and more a one-man band.  I had at that point put out the word that if anybody wanted the CC position I was more than willing to step down ... nobody took me up on the offer.

At the end of my six-year time in the job, I was burned out.  So incredibly burned out that even after accepting a group position, I found it mentally easier on myself to just retire.  The unit folded after another year with a CC who wanted the job but couldn't be a one-man band.

After a 12-year hiatus I rejoined, serving in the squadron that sprung up in the town a few years after the unit I commanded folded.  And the fellow in the CC slot now ... I hope he NEVER leaves.  He's a fantastic unit CC and he seems to have endless energy for the job.  He also has a pretty good sized staff (of which I am proud to be a member) and he utilizes me as a resource person for new officers, seeing as how I have the longest combined service in the unit.  (I also know where all the bodies are buried.)

It's a good job if you want it, but it can be a booger and a half if you're doing the whole thing all by yourself.

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

CAPSGT

One issue on this topic I haven't really seen brought up yet is building up a corps of qualified members to take on roles at higher headquarters.  One of the most common qualifications that I see sought after in group/wing commanders is prior command experience.  If the same members are remaining in command at the unit level for eternity, you end up with an extremely limited pool of candidates for these higher headquarters positions.  It also seems to be detrimental to even finding staff members for higher headquarters, as you don't have prior commanders taking on new challenges as a higher HQ staff officer.

One thing that struck me about ColonelJack's experience with being so burned out that it was simply easier to retire from the organization altogethor.  By staying in command to that point, it deprives the succossor of the opportunity to have their predecessor around as a sounding board, particularly during their first several months of command.  I know that for me it was invaluable having my predecessor around to bounce ideas off of.
MICHAEL A. CROCKETT, Lt Col, CAP
Assistant Communications Officer, Wicomico Composite Squadron

Eclipse

Quote from: CAPSGT on January 24, 2011, 05:01:46 PM
One issue on this topic I haven't really seen brought up yet is building up a corps of qualified members to take on roles at higher headquarters.  One of the most common qualifications that I see sought after in group/wing commanders is prior command experience.  If the same members are remaining in command at the unit level for eternity, you end up with an extremely limited pool of candidates for these higher headquarters positions.  It also seems to be detrimental to even finding staff members for higher headquarters, as you don't have prior commanders taking on new challenges as a higher HQ staff officer.

Bingo!  Something I was discussing, specifically, this week.

An unintended consequence of this is having Group and Wing staffers who bypass the unit experience and go straight to a higher HQ staff job without much, if any, experience.  Seriously, is it appropriate to have butter-bar wing staffers with a wet membership ribbon appointed to Directorships?

The result is people who are trying to manage a program they have never actually used at the unit level, so they have no fundamental understanding of what a Unit CC and regular member needs to be successful, then we can't figure out why these members usually struggle.

"That Others May Zoom"