The New CAPM 39-1 Now Available

Started by MisterCD, June 26, 2014, 05:25:56 PM

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Chappie

I took the flag off my BDUs last night in preparation for next week's Encampment.   I am not opposed to wearing the flag...but never did like the way the whole thing came down back in the dark days.  The flag on the BDUs was a constant reminder of the whims and silliness of HWSRN.
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

lordmonar

Quote from: Garibaldi on June 27, 2014, 08:08:02 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on June 27, 2014, 08:04:13 PM
And we'll be sure there will be some who will wear the flag patch until the very last day it's authorized.

My DCC says he is mandating its madatoriness for the cadets until the very last day.
Why?  Your DCC wants your cadets to spend money that they don't have to?  Please send him to me.....I got a can of NCO whoop _ss that I can sell him for the price of a Reversed U.S. Flag.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SamFranklin

I've only skimmed the new 39-1. My two main reactions are:

1.  Hat's off to the team that put it together. What a miserable task it must have been. Thank you.

2.  Yes, nice job to the people who did the graphics. They look great and are actually better than photos. Thank you. I admire your talent.

3.  If it's overlong and overly complicated, that ought to tell us (CAP collectively) that we have way too many combinations. Older members like myself might remember that the guaybera (sp?) shirt came in not one, but two colors. And the corporate flight suit came in blue and orange. That was 20 years ago, maybe longer, but the point is we have a long, long tradition of making too many darn combinations. If you want an even better 39-1, simplify the uniform options.


lordmonar

Quote from: AlphaSigOU on June 27, 2014, 09:00:17 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 08:56:44 PM
We have always worn them on the flight suits.

Are pilots and smurfs more patriotic then ground pounders?

The patch configuration for CAP flight suits is identical to that of Air Mobility Command, except for the plastic grade insignia and leather name tag.
AFSOC too....but not USAFE, PACAF, ACC.......so there you go.  :)
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

NC Hokie

Quote from: lordmonar on June 28, 2014, 01:01:38 AM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on June 27, 2014, 09:00:17 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on June 27, 2014, 08:56:44 PM
We have always worn them on the flight suits.

Are pilots and smurfs more patriotic then ground pounders?

The patch configuration for CAP flight suits is identical to that of Air Mobility Command, except for the plastic grade insignia and leather name tag.
AFSOC too....but not USAFE, PACAF, ACC.......so there you go.  :)

Wait...USAF isn't one big, homogeneous family?

THEN WHO ARE WE SUPPOSED TO COPY?!?
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy

SamFranklin

Others have already pointed out that the US flag patch was an anomaly -- something we wore for maybe 8 years of the past 70. With nothing but a gut feeling to go on, I wonder if the screaming and wailing about the patch's demise is just carry-over from the political polarization we see throughout society today. It's no secret that, regardless of your politics, many people on one side think the other side is not fully American. So, CAP comes by and cleans up its 39-1, pulls the flag off for legitimate reasons, and the political fervor outside of CAP bleeds into CAP. 

Also, just an observation, if you've ever lived in Europe you'll know that over there it's uncommon for ordinary people to fly their flag at home, let alone wear it. Over there, the flag is a symbol of the state, not so much the people. Here, because our state was founded upon an ideal that people were asked to buy-into, and have bought-into, we're much more likely to love our flag and fly it proudly. There's less distance between the people and the government.

As the old song goes, "And by our right, and by our might, it waves forever!"  (Sousa, Stars and Stripes Forever)


ymmv

NC Hokie

Quote from: SamFranklin on June 28, 2014, 01:09:39 AM
Others have already pointed out that the US flag patch was an anomaly -- something we wore for maybe 8 years of the past 70. With nothing but a gut feeling to go on, I wonder if the screaming and wailing about the patch's demise is just carry-over from the political polarization we see throughout society today.
I think you're oversimplifying it.  My scientific research has identified at LEAST seven different opinions on the subject:

It's a lasting reminder of HWSRN.  Burn it with fire!
You can have my flag when you cut it off of my cold, dead shoulder.
It's backwards!
Taking the flag off a sign that we're ashamed to be Americans.
The uniform IS my flag.
Take it away so we'll stop looking like NASCAR drivers.
Meh, it's a patch.  No big deal.

My conclusion is that there are currently between 7 and 58,986 different opinions, which shoots your theory right out of the water.

So there!

>:D
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy

SarDragon

Quote from: SamFranklin on June 28, 2014, 12:59:57 AM
I've only skimmed the new 39-1. My two main reactions are:

3.  If it's overlong and overly complicated, that ought to tell us (CAP collectively) that we have way too many combinations. Older members like myself might remember that the guaybera (sp?) shirt came in not one, but two colors. And the corporate flight suit came in blue and orange. That was 20 years ago, maybe longer, but the point is we have a long, long tradition of making too many darn combinations. If you want an even better 39-1, simplify the uniform options.

CAP is actually no better, or worse, than any of the RealMilitary™ services. Do a count, and you'll see that each service has about as many combinations as we do.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Eclipse

^ Last time we did the math, the USAF had more combos then CAP.

"That Others May Zoom"

antdetroitwallyball

#149
Quote
They haven't made it optional, it's intended to be gone by 1 Jan 2017.  They're just giving us a fairly generous phase out period.  As to why, the official answer will probably be that the reverse US flag is not worn by the Air Force, but the cynic in me suspects that erasing another reminder of HWSRN plays into it as well.

My personal preference if to keep it, especially since the end result of taking it off and only allowing NCSA patches in that location will actually make the uniform look LESS uniform, but it is what it is.

The Blue BDU looks even more of a joke without the American Flag. Honestly, I'll probably switch to the Golf Polo for my next uniform. And that's despite the fact that I meet weight standards now for the regular BDU. The Golf Polo uniform actually still looks professional. The current BDU uniforms (both of them) look something like a mixture of a Christmas Tree with hokey ornaments (i.e. grossly comical and oversized Dog ES patch) and a boy scout uniform

Explain to me again, why the American Flag NEEDED to go. Let me give you an example of a good uniform change:

QuoteChange: Eliminate the hokey dog ES patch from utility uniform.
Reason: It looks hokey.
Support for reason:
Hokey crap gets in the way of professional appearance. We claim to represent a professional organization. Lets make our uniform look accordingly.

OR

Change: Eliminate wear of excess oversized "Hey I went to XXXX Special Activity" patches.
Reason: Having a uilitilty uniform decorated with giant oversized colorfull patches makes the uniform look non-uniform and hokey.
Support for reason:
We wear a uniform to look uniform. Let's have wing patch on one shoulder, squadron patch on the other, basic name tapes and call it good. Then everyone would look the same. And with everyone looking the same, we look more professional.

I understand the AF may not have an American flag on their uniform, but what major issue was causing so much problems that it WARRANTED A CHANGE in terms of removing the flag? :) PLEASE, PLEASE tell me that the shoulder flag patch will not be replaced with yet another NCSA patch. Clearly, common sense does not factor into CAP uniform changes, because if that were the case, their would be a highly-visible ES uniform, and Camo would have long been eliminated as an ES utility uniform. Is the active duty AF FORCING these changes on CAP, or are these changes being made by high ranking CAP VOLUNTEERS on a VOLUNTERY basis, informed only by said member's personal (misguided) opinions?

I was so appalled at the new CAP uniform regs that I had to google CGAUX regs just to get a bearing on what is actually normal. ::) Whew! Okay, it looks like the other auxiliary only makes uniform changes when changes are made to the same uniform by the active duty CG. And the active duty CG simply cannot afford to make regular changes to their uniform for stupid reasons, because that would be expensive to the service members.  The CG would rather have fat and fuzzies wearing their same uniform than be affilated with fat and fuzzies wearing an extremely hokey patchwork-quilt ever-changing varient of an old CG uniform.

All right, I feel much better now...........it's not how the rest of the world operates. It's just a CAP thing. ;) ;) ;) ::) ::)

Fortunately for CAP, I don't think like CAP. And I would never consider just up and quitting the organization because of dumb uniform issues. I still feel CAP has a lot to offer. Its just that I came into the organization with a high deal of skeptisism regarding the uniform, and now my previous impressions have been overwhelmingly confirmed. Yes, the CAP utility uniform is in fact the hokey boy scout uniform that it smelled like to me when I first joined. It will be Polo shirt for me, because at public events like airshows, I will at least be able to try and represent CAP as the otherwise credible organization that it is without having my recruiting table pitch be completely undermined by what I'm wearing.

I tried to wear the BDU, because I felt it was a good thing for the Cadets. To some extent, I still feel the BDU offers them something. But not to me.


NIN

Quote from: antdetroitwallyball on June 28, 2014, 09:43:42 AM
The current BDU uniforms (both of them) look something like a mixture of a Christmas Tree with hokey ornaments (i.e. grossly comical and oversized Dog ES patch) and a boy scout uniform

You don't have to wear ALL the patches, you know....  There are a LOT of optional patches that contribute to the over-color-ness of the BDUs in that regard.  Extra pocket patches, the ES dog (I prefer to avoid him these days), etc.  Just because you can wear all these crazy extra patches doesn't meant you should.

(I won't get into why we have a zillion extra patches...)

Quote
Explain to me again, why the American Flag NEEDED to go.

This was not the initiative to remove the flag from the BDU uniform since 2007. While other uniform changes that came from that era were nixed over time, the flag remained.   Previous iterations of the NUC had proposed removing the flag, and it was incorporated into previous rewrites of 39-1 (that never made it 'out of committee', to so speak).

The flag needed to be removed because it didn't need to be there in the first place. It was ramrodded thru at the time (along with a bunch of other silly changes to the uniform) and *poof* appeared on the uniform.  I don't have the full remembery on this particular issue, but I seem to recall that the USAF didn't even get a chance to approve that particular change (I could be wrong).

I would caution your tone with regard to people behind the NUC and the manual.  Its not like they're sitting in a room illuminated by only one of those pool-table lights, plotting world domination in Woodland camo or something. They are volunteers like you and me, and their processes are guided by the membership (to a point), the desires of the Air Force (to a point), and the commander's instructions.

As a bit of personal historical background, I don't think there has been a change to the uniform manual in the last 30 years where I didn't have some personal heartburn with 1 or 2 items of the myriad of changes.   Oh well.

But I didn't suggest that the people behind the manual didn't have common sense or were misguided.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

antdetroitwallyball

#151
QuoteYou don't have to wear ALL the patches, you know....  There are a LOT of optional patches

Problem 1#. Why not make three different equally gaudy name tape color options availible to the membership. We can choose Pink, orange, or ultramarine.

Options are an inherent enemy to a uniform uniform.

QuoteAs a bit of personal historical background, I don't think there has been a change to the uniform manual in the last 30 years where I didn't have some personal heartburn with 1 or 2 items of the myriad of changes.   Oh well.

But I didn't suggest that the people behind the manual didn't have common sense or were misguided. I would caution your tone with regard to people behind the NUC and the manual.  Its not like they're sitting in a room illuminated by only one of those pool-table lights, plotting world domination in Woodland camo or something. They are volunteers like you and me, and their processes are guided by the membership (to a point), the desires of the Air Force (to a point), and the commander's instructions.

My point is that if the process for making and designing a CAP uniform was good and effective, then there would be no such thing as a frequent uniform manual change. It's not that I think that the uniform people are stupid or lack normal common sense, it's just that I can't help looking at the current BDU without thinking:

"This uniform has morphed into a non-uniform uniform that screams "lets please everyone" at the expense of still looking professional." Try as they might, the BDU hardly looks professional, and doesn't really look "USAF" even though its supposedly "USAF-style." Its Camo, and supposedly Camo means military, and one of the five branches of the military happens to be USAF. There. That is the USAF heritage that the current BDU brings to CAP. Fail, if you ask me. So for all good intentions that these well-meaning CAP uniform people may have had.........they have in my book failed to a large extent. Randomly blendering a bunch of seperate little good ideas does not automatically equal one big good idea. If the AF won't let us have a uniform that looks like theirs, and still looks uniform and professional, then let's give up trying to have a USAF-style utility uniform. It will go over horribly with the cadets at first..........but in time, I think that will pass.

You named three parties that have input: membership, AF, and Natl Commander (correct?). That's too many people that have a say. Maybe this is why the CGAUX suffers no such problems. All uniform issues are decided by the Active Duty CG alone. They have a very hands-off common sense approach. They don't give the auxies options, because they don't give the Active Duty guys options. I understand that CAP doesn't have the same relationship with the AF, and so the AF being the sole decider/designer of CAP uniforms is not an option, but seriously..................the system is not working well.

Do the boyscouts make changes to their uniforms as often as CAP does? Are there just as many options as CAP offers?

Design a good uniform that won't need to be changed, and you won't have to make frequent changes to it. Mandate that no further non-AF mandated changes can be made for another 15+ plus years.

Maybe the problem is that CAP allows for frequent uniform changes. That gives room and license for everyone to have an opportunity to stick their personal likes and dislikes into the changes, and results in a non-uniform uniform that is constantly changing.

Can someone here cite precedent with other similar volunteer-based organizations where there exists a myraid of uniform choices and frequent changes to those choices?

QuoteIt was ramrodded thru at the time (along with a bunch of other silly changes to the uniform) and *poof* appeared on the uniform.  I don't have the full remembery on this particular issue, but I seem to recall that the USAF didn't even get a chance to approve that particular change (I could be wrong).

Can bylaws and regs be made so that in the future, changes can't just be "ramrodded thru," and that the USAF DOES get a chance to approve/disapprove a particular change? From my new member standpoint, it seems to me that a lot of CAP's recent past history problem have been caused by a lack of checks and balances on member's decision-making authority when it comes to making changes to things.

You know what attracts me to the polo? It's the fact that it looks coherent on virtually everyone who I have seen wear it. No gaudy designs or look-at-me-patches, its not been subject to 101+ yearly changes, and it looks professional. It's only issue (IMHO) is that it lacks the BDU's durability, and it offers virtually no appeal to the cadets.

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: NC Hokie on June 28, 2014, 01:27:38 AM
It's a lasting reminder of HWSRN.  Burn it with fire!

It seems to me that people are still giving him way too much power, almost 10 years after the fact.

I'm still wondering about if a commander who likes the polo shirt combination and makes it the de jure uniform of the unit can try to force people to buy it with THEIR money, even if they hate it.

My guess is NO.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

foo

Quote from: Panache on June 27, 2014, 04:07:06 AM
As CAP apparently couldn't care less about how those second-class members who have to wear the G/Ws ...

How does wearing the G/Ws make one a "second-class" member? I prefer not to wear the military-style uniforms. Am I supposed to be feeling bad about that?

lordmonar

Quote from: CyBorg on June 28, 2014, 02:58:09 PM
Quote from: NC Hokie on June 28, 2014, 01:27:38 AM
It's a lasting reminder of HWSRN.  Burn it with fire!

It seems to me that people are still giving him way too much power, almost 10 years after the fact.

I'm still wondering about if a commander who likes the polo shirt combination and makes it the de jure uniform of the unit can try to force people to buy it with THEIR money, even if they hate it.

My guess is NO.
Actually....yes.   The unit commander is free to set uniform policy for his unit.   "we wear the polo and greys here" is perfectly allowable.   Member X refuses to buy polos and greys.....then the commander is free to take administrative actions for not following policy and directives.....which could result in a 2b.

So.....the power is there.

BTW....this only counts for Adult Members....Cadets can't be forced to buy uniforms....even though we do make them.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SARDOC

Quote from: lordmonar on June 28, 2014, 09:00:20 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 28, 2014, 02:58:09 PM
Quote from: NC Hokie on June 28, 2014, 01:27:38 AM
It's a lasting reminder of HWSRN.  Burn it with fire!

It seems to me that people are still giving him way too much power, almost 10 years after the fact.

I'm still wondering about if a commander who likes the polo shirt combination and makes it the de jure uniform of the unit can try to force people to buy it with THEIR money, even if they hate it.

My guess is NO.
Actually....yes.   The unit commander is free to set uniform policy for his unit.   "we wear the polo and greys here" is perfectly allowable.   Member X refuses to buy polos and greys.....then the commander is free to take administrative actions for not following policy and directives.....which could result in a 2b.

So.....the power is there.

BTW....this only counts for Adult Members....Cadets can't be forced to buy uniforms....even though we do make them.

I'd find it difficult to enforce a rule that isn't supported by Regulations.  The Regulation specifies the Minimum Basic Uniform, anything outside that is optional.

SARDOC

Quote from: CAPM39-18.1.2.3. The FDU and CFDU will have sleeves rolled down to the wrist when performing
aircrew duties in-flight. Sleeves may be rolled under if not performing in-flight duties; if rolled under the
sleeve will not end above the natural bend of the wrist when the wearer's arms are hanging naturally at
their side.

Does anyone know the rationale behind the In-Flight wear vs. Non-Flight wear, considering the CFDU isn't even required to be Nomex?

PHall

Quote from: SARDOC on June 28, 2014, 09:45:27 PM
Quote from: CAPM39-18.1.2.3. The FDU and CFDU will have sleeves rolled down to the wrist when performing
aircrew duties in-flight. Sleeves may be rolled under if not performing in-flight duties; if rolled under the
sleeve will not end above the natural bend of the wrist when the wearer's arms are hanging naturally at
their side.

Does anyone know the rationale behind the In-Flight wear vs. Non-Flight wear, considering the CFDU isn't even required to be Nomex?

Flash fire protection in case of a crash.   Based on the assumption that any kind of covering is better then bare skin.

lordmonar

Quote from: SARDOC on June 28, 2014, 09:29:18 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on June 28, 2014, 09:00:20 PM
Quote from: CyBorg on June 28, 2014, 02:58:09 PM
Quote from: NC Hokie on June 28, 2014, 01:27:38 AM
It's a lasting reminder of HWSRN.  Burn it with fire!

It seems to me that people are still giving him way too much power, almost 10 years after the fact.

I'm still wondering about if a commander who likes the polo shirt combination and makes it the de jure uniform of the unit can try to force people to buy it with THEIR money, even if they hate it.

My guess is NO.
Actually....yes.   The unit commander is free to set uniform policy for his unit.   "we wear the polo and greys here" is perfectly allowable.   Member X refuses to buy polos and greys.....then the commander is free to take administrative actions for not following policy and directives.....which could result in a 2b.

So.....the power is there.

BTW....this only counts for Adult Members....Cadets can't be forced to buy uniforms....even though we do make them.

I'd find it difficult to enforce a rule that isn't supported by Regulations.  The Regulation specifies the Minimum Basic Uniform, anything outside that is optional.
So.....cadets can go to encampment with just Blues?   
The power is there.....commanders can set the policy.   And we would have to follow said policy or be subject to 2b action....insubordination.

Now.....it would never go so far.  No one in their right mind would push it.

But the question is does the commander have the authority to tell members to buy XYZ uniform?   Yes they do.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

lordmonar

Quote from: SARDOC on June 28, 2014, 09:45:27 PM
Quote from: CAPM39-18.1.2.3. The FDU and CFDU will have sleeves rolled down to the wrist when performing
aircrew duties in-flight. Sleeves may be rolled under if not performing in-flight duties; if rolled under the
sleeve will not end above the natural bend of the wrist when the wearer's arms are hanging naturally at
their side.

Does anyone know the rationale behind the In-Flight wear vs. Non-Flight wear, considering the CFDU isn't even required to be Nomex?
Stolen from the USAF policy.   Rational is...."we justify the flight suit because it is a "safety issue" and if we let our aircrew do too many things that show this is BS....the non-fliers will get wise and start making problems".  :)
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP