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Started by MadGrak, September 15, 2011, 05:14:12 AM

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Garibaldi

Quote from: AirDX on November 24, 2012, 10:57:14 PM

You're making a huge assumption (and a bigger mistake) in assuming that because I wear a polo shirt, and think the reg as written is both nonsense and unenforceable, that I'm unprofessional and lazy.  You are utterly incorrect.  I'm a wing staff officer, I work at it, I participate in the field at the squadron level, and I have the find ribbons, the DR with a V, and the rest of the bling to show for it.  I do PD because I want to (even though I got Captain through the hated mission-related promotions clause, TS on that one folks), including Air Force PME, and I have completed Level IV of the program.

The problem is that none of you can show any reason that the polo is any less of a uniform than any of the others, beyond your personal prejudices.  I spent the money and set up the grey/white combo; it's not that I am resisting the reg, it's that the grey/white hangs in the closet and never comes out.  I've been to meetings with folks from all over the region, 95% are wearing polos.  Soooo... what's the problem?  And don't throw the anti-military thing at me, it won't stick, I was in the Army BITD and I'm a civilian employee of the USAF now.  I'm happy to put my white/grey on, but there hasn't been a reason for me to in four years now, and I don't see one on the horizon anywhere.  You're going to have to tell me what culture it is that needs to change, because I don't see it.

Here's the culture I'm familiar with and that I like: Last month I was course director for an SLS.  About two hours after I got home from Saturday's session, we got the call: tsunami warning.  My class along with the rest of the wing flew warning routes and recon for the the state, ran comms and manned the county EOCs statewide.  I got home about 0130, and tried to figure out how I was going to get the second half of the class covered, since I knew I wouldn't get my class back in the morning.  Much to my surprise about half checked in by text message and e-mail by about 3 AM, saying they would be there!  In the morning, by our 8 AM start, 100% of the class was back, along with all the instructors, bright-eyed and ready to go on 3 hours of sleep!  THAT'S effort and professionalism - class all day, then SAFELY executing a high ORM, high stress night mission, and then back to class the next day, not missing a beat.  Oh yeah, we all wore polos or flight suits.  It's about executing the mission(s), in the classroom, in an exercise, and real-world, NOT about your personal ax you want to grind because you think we should all LOOK a certain way.

If YOU are around a lackadaisical flying-club outfit, that's YOUR problem to solve through motivation, education, and leadership.  Hanging around an internet chat board grumping about polo shirts is none of the above.  Polo shirts aren't a symptom, or a cause.  They are just shirts.           

Oh, and BTW: I don't give a RAT'S what they do in California.   

I never judge BY the uniform. I judge what's IN the uniform. Personally, I don't care if a purple giraffe suit is authorized for wear. Either you know what you're doing or you don't. Plenty of people who wear the polo are professionals who do their jobs, and do them well. Others wear the AF style uniform because they think it's their right to do so and wear them improperly and really are ragbags who don't know their *** from a hole in the ground. I will follow whoever knows their ****, regardless of what uniform they choose to wear.

I just wish they'd give us an option for a different color of trouser instead of gray. I prefer khaki with the blue polo, even khaki cargo shorts for outdoor work, but that's a personal preference. For me, the polo seems to be a business casual type of uniform, as opposed to the grey/whites, which are more dressy. Business casual has always been khaki for me. Doesn't take away from professionalism, just a little more utility than dress slacks and dress shoes. Even the AF polo combo is worn with khaki slacks, from what I've seen.

Meh.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

okeecap

I agree CAP should kill the grey completely, it has no meaning.  Originally CAP used khaki uniforms, lets adopt the old army air corps uniform and stick to our roots, or bring back the csu the blue and white was original to the CAP.  The grey and white just don't look good, and there is no cover.  Also the csu looked almost identical to the AF blues so the cadets could reference any senior uniform to see what theirs should look like.  That is all I can say to benefit CAP kill grey, it doesn't look good, and has no historical value.

PHall

Quote from: okeecap on November 25, 2012, 01:33:27 AM
I agree CAP should kill the grey completely, it has no meaning.  Originally CAP used khaki uniforms, lets adopt the old army air corps uniform and stick to our roots, or bring back the csu the blue and white was original to the CAP.  The grey and white just don't look good, and there is no cover.  Also the csu looked almost identical to the AF blues so the cadets could reference any senior uniform to see what theirs should look like.  That is all I can say to benefit CAP kill grey, it doesn't look good, and has no historical value.

The CSU has zero history. The grey and whites have been around over twenty years now. That's a LOT more "history" then the CSU had.

Garibaldi

Quote from: PHall on November 25, 2012, 02:29:45 AM
Quote from: okeecap on November 25, 2012, 01:33:27 AM
I agree CAP should kill the grey completely, it has no meaning.  Originally CAP used khaki uniforms, lets adopt the old army air corps uniform and stick to our roots, or bring back the csu the blue and white was original to the CAP.  The grey and white just don't look good, and there is no cover.  Also the csu looked almost identical to the AF blues so the cadets could reference any senior uniform to see what theirs should look like.  That is all I can say to benefit CAP kill grey, it doesn't look good, and has no historical value.

The CSU has zero history. The grey and whites have been around over twenty years now. That's a LOT more "history" then the CSU had.

It was here and gone in the blink of an eye. It was like, "Hey, this is authorized for wear."
"What's authorized for wear?"
"This new Corporate Service Uni...wait. Where did it go?"
"Where did what go?"
"...I forget."
"What were we talking about?"
"What?"
"Who are you again?"
It's like someone played a Jedi Mind Trick on us.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: PHall on November 25, 2012, 02:29:45 AM
The CSU has zero history. The grey and whites have been around over twenty years now. That's a LOT more "history" then the CSU had.

That's because it wasn't allowed to gain any history.

Okeecap is right though, as I see it...why on earth does almost everything CAP-related have to be grey, which really isn't a colour at all (and I say that as one whose remaining hair is almost completely grey).

Quote from: okeecap on November 25, 2012, 01:33:27 AM
I agree CAP should kill the grey completely, it has no meaning.  Originally CAP used khaki uniforms, lets adopt the old army air corps uniform and stick to our roots, or bring back the csu the blue and white was original to the CAP.  The grey and white just don't look good, and there is no cover.  Also the csu looked almost identical to the AF blues so the cadets could reference any senior uniform to see what theirs should look like.  That is all I can say to benefit CAP kill grey, it doesn't look good, and has no historical value.

I agree with you 1000%.  A comparison I've sometimes made is that in the G/W we look more like the old East German Army than anything else (except that they had headgear and a service jacket).



I think the grey/white looks drab, dull, like a reverse negative from a photo back in the days of film, and has no connection to aviation, military or civilian, unless of course one counts the East Germans.

However...

I rarely ever say "never" to anything, but I can safely say that you will never dissuade CAP from its inexplicable love of this non-colour.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Luis R. Ramos

Garibaldi,

Next time you post something like that re the CSU, you have to post a warning. Call it a Garning?

>:D

I suffer from asthma so I am short of breath. I just could not read it without choking up! It was great anyway.

:clap:

Flyer
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

okeecap

I was stating that the csu looked more AF than th grey and white.  The csu had more of a historical outlook because it embodied our relationship with the AF and looked like a uniform.  It could have even been made a uniform for cadet meaning the CAP could have had a distinct uniform that was original.  But now it got the ax and we got the grey and white that kinda makes my eyes bleed.  The grey and whit compares to the triangle thingy, its an eye sore.

abdsp51

Quote from: okeecap on November 25, 2012, 04:13:49 AM
I was stating that the csu looked more AF than th grey and white.  The csu had more of a historical outlook because it embodied our relationship with the AF and looked like a uniform.  It could have even been made a uniform for cadet meaning the CAP could have had a distinct uniform that was original.  But now it got the ax and we got the grey and white that kinda makes my eyes bleed.  The grey and whit compares to the triangle thingy, its an eye sore.

For someone relatively new or who has not advanced in awhile it has been worse for SM they use to have to wear Maroon epaulets on everything. 

Garibaldi

Quote from: abdsp51 on November 25, 2012, 04:29:10 AM
Quote from: okeecap on November 25, 2012, 04:13:49 AM
I was stating that the csu looked more AF than th grey and white.  The csu had more of a historical outlook because it embodied our relationship with the AF and looked like a uniform.  It could have even been made a uniform for cadet meaning the CAP could have had a distinct uniform that was original.  But now it got the ax and we got the grey and white that kinda makes my eyes bleed.  The grey and whit compares to the triangle thingy, its an eye sore.

For someone relatively new or who has not advanced in awhile it has been worse for SM they use to have to wear Maroon epaulets on everything.

*shakes finger at you menacingly*

Don't you dare bring that up again. Ever. It was a dark day in CAP when we had to put those stupid, asinine things on. Like okeecap said, it's an eyesore. The only reason I even held on to mine was to remind me that no matter what is happening now, things have been much, much worse.

*shudder*

I have to take my meds now. Thanks for the nightmares.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

abdsp51

Just saying sir.  The grey does not bother me any at all, and mentioning it was to point out that uniforms were far worse than grey for us.

Eclipse

Frankly the mention of those things is becoming somewhat tired.
Like bombing subs and Oswald, they are a part of our history, but have very little relevance to anyone who is a member today.  It was 20 years ago(ish).

"That Others May Zoom"

abdsp51

Quote from: Eclipse on November 25, 2012, 05:14:11 AM
Frankly the mention of those things is becoming somewhat tired.
Like bombing subs and Oswald, they are a part of our history, but have very little relevance to anyone who is a member today.  It was 20 years ago(ish).

Yes I agree, but it we need to remember where we came from to move forward in any context.

Garibaldi

Sooooo...topics sure to raise blood pressure in this category are:

Polo shirt

ABUs

Maroon epaulet sleeves

H/W requirements

CSU

Did I miss anything?
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

manfredvonrichthofen

CAWG SaR uniform... If it can be called a uniform based solely on how udderly hideous is.

Yes I wrote udderly, because it too ridiculous to use the correct term.

Fubar

Quote from: Garibaldi on November 25, 2012, 05:22:45 AMDid I miss anything?

You mighta killed somebody putting all that in one list!

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: Eclipse on November 25, 2012, 05:14:11 AM
Frankly the mention of those things is becoming somewhat tired.
Like bombing subs and Oswald, they are a part of our history, but have very little relevance to anyone who is a member today.  It was 20 years ago(ish).

Your point is taken.  However, the berry boards are still relevant (and I trashed mine as soon as the grey ones were available) in that we are still being punished for those 20(ish) years ago transgressions.  If we were not, the AF would have, after a period of penance on the part of CAP, returned our blue epaulette sleeves, metal grade and blue nameplates.

If you're close enough to see the rank markings on these...then you're close enough to notice the CAP identifier.





Unless, of course, the viewer is illiterate, in which case, the question "who owns the problem?" is apropos.

Instead, we are still doing a (milder form of) penance.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Garibaldi

OK. Even though I've been around the block a time or three, just what is it we're paying penance for? The only thing I ever heard of was a SM in WIWG who filed his blue nametag down and removed the CAP from his blue epaulet sleeves and tried to do something weird on an AF reserve base. Even that was apocryphal enough for me. I have no idea what it was that the AF thought was so heinous that we needed to radically change our uniforms.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: Garibaldi on November 25, 2012, 07:25:28 AM
OK. Even though I've been around the block a time or three, just what is it we're paying penance for? The only thing I ever heard of was a SM in WIWG who filed his blue nametag down and removed the CAP from his blue epaulet sleeves and tried to do something weird on an AF reserve base. Even that was apocryphal enough for me. I have no idea what it was that the AF thought was so heinous that we needed to radically change our uniforms.

I've never heard of any of those instances.  How, I wonder, could the "CAP" be removed from an epaulette sleeve without destroying it?  It was embroidered on...just as it has always been.

What I was told right after I joined in 1993:

A former National CC "promoted himself" to the grade of Major General, it was greenlighted by the SecAF, but not by CSAF...it turned into bad blood between those two high-ranking gentlemen.  The General got to keep his rank but the rest of CAP got the fallout.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=11081.0

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7453.60

I was also told that a few CAP officers were trolling for salutes on Air Force installations and chewing the enlisted/NCO AF members out for not saluting them, neither of which, of course, they had a right or privilege to do.

So, yes, we are still hewing wood and drawing water over that.  If we weren't, we wouldn't still be forced to "grey" everything.

It is illogical in the extreme, especially since one can troll for salutes no matter what colour the shoulder marks are.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Garibaldi

Berry interesting...but stupid. Thanks for the links.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: Garibaldi on November 25, 2012, 08:26:55 AM
Berry interesting...but stupid.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Nice one and 10-4 on the stupid factor (said in mid-70s CB Trucker voice).

Getting back to the original subject (!), I think that what happened to us with the berry boards will forever preclude us from getting ABU's, or looking any more like the Air Force than we currently do.  Doubly so, since that attitude has spread throughout CAP to the point that a good chunk of CAP's membership are even disdainful of us wearing any Air Force-type uniform, whether it be ABU's, blues (and the firestorm of those shouting down the CSU, much less getting blue shoulder marks, hard rank and blue nameplates back) or flight suits (though I don't see the antipathy toward those nearly as much).

Again, I doubt extremely that CAP will ever see ABU's, except for the cadets.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011