ABUs

[Fubar]

Fubar,

Then someone lied to you when they told you the only "uniform" required could wear was a polo.

CAP regulations have always stated the required uniform is the AF blue or Gray/white combination. It has been, it is written. The polo is an alternate uniform.

Flyer

Well no, nobody lied to me. I was told all I needed to buy was a polo shirt and I'd be fine and in my experiences, that's been true. Not once have I been prevented from participating in a CAP activity due to the polo shirt not being an acceptable uniform option. Heck on certain SAREX assignments when I've worked with outside agencies, the higher ups stated it was the UOD.

If everything I do allows (an in some cases requires) the "alternate" uniform, then for all practical purposes, it's the only uniform I'm required to own.

[JeffDG]

If everything I do allows (an in some cases requires) the "alternate" uniform, then for all practical purposes, it's the only uniform I'm required to own.

No, the CAP Uniform Nazis are going to bust your door down in the middle of the night and rifle through your closets to make sure you have a Blue or White with all the required acoutrements.  If you cannot produce one immediately, it will be an instant 2b for you!

[abdsp51]

Fubar,

Then someone lied to you when they told you the only "uniform" required could wear was a polo.

CAP regulations have always stated the required uniform is the AF blue or Gray/white combination. It has been, it is written. The polo is an alternate uniform.

Flyer

Well no, nobody lied to me. I was told all I needed to buy was a polo shirt and I'd be fine and in my experiences, that's been true. Not once have I been prevented from participating in a CAP activity due to the polo shirt not being an acceptable uniform option. Heck on certain SAREX assignments when I've worked with outside agencies, the higher ups stated it was the UOD.

If everything I do allows (an in some cases requires) the "alternate" uniform, then for all practical purposes, it's the only uniform I'm required to own.

Wrong per CAPM39-1 as follows:

1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. Uniform clothing may be altered to improve fit. However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as designed. It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform.  Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by acquiring surplus uniforms. Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard does not automatically permit its wear.

a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.

Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem.

b. CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform (senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray trousers; black belt; black shoes and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.

Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks or skirt; plain black shoes. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.

[abdsp51]

Until there is final word one way or another people are going to ask,  it has been said that the proposal was sent up or in the works to be sent up. 

[/i]

This is indeed the current state of the art.  As I have indicated in other posts, we are in the process of assembling a packet to go forward to the Office of the Secretary of Defense -- routed through our AF colleagues -- for ABU approval.

As you can well imagine, anything destined for the OSD has to be assembled very carefully.


Ned Lee
Member, National Uniform Committee
Frequent Attendee at Many Meetings and Conferences

Thank you sir. Eclipse as you can see I said I heard that it was sent up or in the process of being sent up.  I never stated otherwise and you have still yet to cite your source on the AF outside of your own theory are doing away with the ABU.  But nice attempt at a dance around.

[Fubar]

Wrong per CAPM39-1 as follows:

abdso51,

I believe you may have missed the part of my post that said, "for all practical purposes." Yes, CAPM 39-1 states all members will own a basic uniform, but if everything I do allows a polo shirt, then really, it's the only uniform I need to own in order to play in CAP.

Let's just say I own a basic uniform and I simply have Vanguard hanging on to it for me since I never need it.

[abdsp51]

Wrong per CAPM39-1 as follows:

abdso51,

I believe you may have missed the part of my post that said, "for all practical purposes." Yes, CAPM 39-1 states all members will own a basic uniform, but if everything I do allows a polo shirt, then really, it's the only uniform I need to own in order to play in CAP.

Let's just say I own a basic uniform and I simply have Vanguard hanging on to it for me since I never need it.

So bare minimum to do anything got it.  Don't goto Ca Wg for anything PD related.

[okeecap]

All my squadron CC tells new members they need to buy is the polo,  due to the high price of all the other uniform items and the possibility the price may scare away prospects.  Now im all for having m ore than just the polo I strongly suggest to new members the purchase of BDU or BBDU and suggest to get them used due to the high prices of the uniform.  Used BDUs are cheap because the majority of the military does not use them, even the law enforcement agency I work for has permanently replaced the BDU with the ACU or the multicam uniforms. 

[JeffDG]

Wrong per CAPM39-1 as follows:

abdso51,

I believe you may have missed the part of my post that said, "for all practical purposes." Yes, CAPM 39-1 states all members will own a basic uniform, but if everything I do allows a polo shirt, then really, it's the only uniform I need to own in order to play in CAP.

Let's just say I own a basic uniform and I simply have Vanguard hanging on to it for me since I never need it.

So bare minimum to do anything got it.  Don't goto Ca Wg for anything PD related.

He'll be welcome in plenty of other places.

[Garibaldi]

Wrong per CAPM39-1 as follows:

abdso51,

I believe you may have missed the part of my post that said, "for all practical purposes." Yes, CAPM 39-1 states all members will own a basic uniform, but if everything I do allows a polo shirt, then really, it's the only uniform I need to own in order to play in CAP.

Let's just say I own a basic uniform and I simply have Vanguard hanging on to it for me since I never need it.

So, you purchased one and Vanguard hasn't delivered it yet? 

I can't believe we are still having this debate. It has been gone over and over and over and no one will agree on this. ABU or polo, those two are the biggest bones of contention among almost EVERYONE here. Even when a member of the NUC says it, no one still believes it BECAUSE IT ISN'T WRITTEN DOWN IN REG, ICL, OR MANUAL FORMAT. Our national CC could come out and say directly that the polo is the third uniform required and no one would believe it because it isn't written down anywhere. He could say "Heck yeah, go out and get you an ABU because I talked to SecDef yesterday and he said 'You guys don't have them yet? Why didn't you say? Go out and wear it! Here's what you can put on it'" and still people wouldn't because the decision doesn't exist in written form. We get so hung up on having it in writing, which is good in many, many cases but for this issue, even when it comes from 2 members of the NUC (Ned and my wing CC, who sits on the NUC) people still will  debate and debate and cross their arms and shake their heads and continue to cite hearsay from "unofficial" sources.

Bottom line is this: Polo is good, it is accepted as a substitute for BDUs as a working uniform for most cases, but not a substitute for the AF Blues. We have the Grey/Whites for that. ABUs: Not going to happen until the planets align and EVERYONE agrees on how we procure them, when we can wear them, and what we wear on them. Everyone means CAP-USAF and DoD.

To me, the debate is useless. It's a non-issue. It's a dadgum uniform that has to make its way through many channels, like the BDUs did in the 80s-90s. How long between the military adopting the wear and it being authorized for CAP use? About 8 years, if I recall correctly. The ABU has been around for what, 5 years at the most? Either we get it or we don't. Period.

I vote the moderators put ABU and Polo in the curse filter.

[Eclipse]

I can't believe we are still having this debate. It has been gone over and over and over and no one will agree on this. ABU or polo, those two are the biggest bones of contention among almost EVERYONE here. Even when a member of the NUC says it, no one still believes it BECAUSE IT ISN'T WRITTEN DOWN IN REG, ICL, OR MANUAL FORMAT. Our national CC could come out and say directly that the polo is the third uniform required and no one would believe it because it isn't written down anywhere. He could say "Heck yeah, go out and get you an ABU because I talked to SecDef yesterday and he said 'You guys don't have them yet? Why didn't you say? Go out and wear it! Here's what you can put on it'" and still people wouldn't because the decision doesn't exist in written form. We get so hung up on having it in writing, which is good in many, many cases but for this issue, even when it comes from 2 members of the NUC (Ned and my wing CC, who sits on the NUC) people still will  debate and debate and cross their arms and shake their heads and continue to cite hearsay from "unofficial" sources.

They are called "regulations" - they govern the organization, and have very specific rules and process for being updated.  When those rules and process are not followed, then the validity of what is being presented is, at the very least, suspect.

The powers of the national governing bodies and officers are specific and limited, by design.  The process for updating our uniform regulation is specific and detailed by design, and not completely within CAP's power.  When those two statements do not properly intersect, we have the issues we have had for a decade.

No regulation / ICL, no action.  And ICL's are only supposed to be used for emergencies, and they still expire, even though CAP chooses to ignore this small, recently reaffirmed regulatory "hitch".

[Garibaldi]

I can't believe we are still having this debate. It has been gone over and over and over and no one will agree on this. ABU or polo, those two are the biggest bones of contention among almost EVERYONE here. Even when a member of the NUC says it, no one still believes it BECAUSE IT ISN'T WRITTEN DOWN IN REG, ICL, OR MANUAL FORMAT. Our national CC could come out and say directly that the polo is the third uniform required and no one would believe it because it isn't written down anywhere. He could say "Heck yeah, go out and get you an ABU because I talked to SecDef yesterday and he said 'You guys don't have them yet? Why didn't you say? Go out and wear it! Here's what you can put on it'" and still people wouldn't because the decision doesn't exist in written form. We get so hung up on having it in writing, which is good in many, many cases but for this issue, even when it comes from 2 members of the NUC (Ned and my wing CC, who sits on the NUC) people still will  debate and debate and cross their arms and shake their heads and continue to cite hearsay from "unofficial" sources.

They are called "regulations" - they govern the organization, and have very specific rules and process for being updated.  When those rules and process are not followed, then the validity of what is being presented is, at the very least, suspect.

The powers of the national governing bodies and officers are specific and limited, by design.  The process for updating our uniform regulation is specific and detailed by design, and not completely within CAP's power.  When those two statements do not properly intersect, we have the issues we have had for a decade.

No regulation / ICL, no action.  And ICL's are only supposed to be used for emergencies, and they still expire, even though CAP chooses to ignore this small, recently reaffirmed regulatory "hitch".

Which is what I said at the end. It's not solely our decision, ergo not worthy of further discussion. It's moot at this point. A non-issue. I still stand by my statement that ABU and Polo go into the curse filter. I'm tired of this endless debate over nothing. It's like having a debate over whether CAP will get used UH-1s for SAR work. Yes, it might be a good idea, and there are a glut of former UH-1 pilots out there, but why? To what purpose? How much will it cost for maintenance and fuel?

It all boils down to money anyway. Even if we get ABU-patterned knock-offs, it'll still cost an arm and a leg to outfit us.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Given that we rate way down on the food chain as far as the AF is concerned, uniform-wise...

1. Active Duty
2. Air Force Reserve
3. Air National Guard (I say that because they have State resources as well as AF)
4. AFROTC
5. AFJROTC
6. SDF Air Wings (maybe no direct contact, but they, unlike us, are allowed to wear the AF uniform with very minimal alterations; at the very least, the AF looks the other way)

We rate somewhere down the ladder after that.  There could well be (and probably are) agencies ahead of us, though right now I cannot think of them.  When it does get to us, cadets have priority uniform-wise.

Of more question personally to me is why we are forced to make do with a monochromatic, colourless "uniform" without headgear and with no service dress equivalent to be "distinctive."

[SARDOC]

All my squadron CC tells new members they need to buy is the polo,  due to the high price of all the other uniform items and the possibility the price may scare away prospects.

If they get the Aviator Shirt instead of a Golf Shirt the price difference is $1.25 plus a name plate $2.25 and $8.50 for the Epaulet Insignia.   That's $12.00 Total.  Twelve Dollars scares away prospects?

[okeecap]

Thats one that gets me why does JROTC rate higher than CAP, when I was in high school I participated in JROTC.  The uniforms were completely supplied by the Air Force and at times they did not care to get certain items back shoes, belts, covers, name tags, and even bdus.  Why don't CAP cadets just get free uniforms from the Air Force like the JROTC and I know they get a cover belt shirt and pants, MAYBE if the monies there.  The CAP does much more than the JROTC, and we operate with only volunteers were as the JROTC have to pay the 2 instructors and supply them with uniforms as well.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Thats one that gets me why does JROTC rate higher than CAP...

AFJROTC isn't still being punished by the AF for uniform/behaviour infractions that happened over 20 years ago.  We are.

NB: I should amend that statement to say that CAP senior members are being punished, and cadets are just unfortunate to be "collaterally damaged."

If, however, we ever do get the ABU's, I would lay heavy odds that it will be cadets-only.

[okeecap]

All my squadron CC tells new members they need to buy is the polo,  due to the high price of all the other uniform items and the possibility the price may scare away prospects.

If they get the Aviator Shirt instead of a Golf Shirt the price difference is $1.25 plus a name plate $2.25 and $8.50 for the Epaulet Insignia.   That's $12.00 Total.  Twelve Dollars scares away prospects?

It can the area my squadron is in is a very rural area made up mainly of agricultural workers, most do not even own a computer so the ordering is done by myself or the CDS, then we collect the money minus shipping.  Most of our members wear the silk screened polo with a pair of grey dickies they bought at the local flea market.  We as the squadron do our best to supply BDUs.  But we just found a law enforcement catolog that sells the white shirts for half the price vanguard charges for polos so it may all change.

[Eclipse]

But we just found a law enforcement catolog that sells the white shirts for half the price vanguard charges for polos so it may all change.

Are they aviator shirts or security guard shirts?   If they have permanent creases, and / or scalloped pockets they are incorrect.

[abdsp51]

The CAP does much more than the JROTC, and we operate with only volunteers were as the JROTC have to pay the 2 instructors and supply them with uniforms as well.

That will be dependent on where CAP and JROTC operate out of, and JROTC does not have ES or AE as part of their mission depending on the branch.  I can assure you there are plenty of JROTC units out there that do more than CAP does on a weekly if not monthly basis.  Not to mention there are plenty of school districts who have removed JROTC from their campuses. 

[okeecap]

But we just found a law enforcement catolog that sells the white shirts for half the price vanguard charges for polos so it may all change.

Are they aviator shirts or security guard shirts?   If they have permanent creases, and / or scalloped pockets they are incorrect.

No they are not the security ones, they are the EMS ones and they do not have the permanent creases.  We compared one to the one one of our members got from vanguard and it was identical, just cheaper.

[AngelWings]

Can't we all just wear flightsuits with top gun patches, aviators, green boots, tan undershirts, berets, and pink gloves?