26 year old Airline Captain and 19 year old FO

Started by LSThiker, September 27, 2016, 04:11:14 AM

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LSThiker


THRAWN

I'm not sure if I should be impressed or worried. The age and experience of flight crews has been a topic of discussion over the past decade or so. Does this pilot have enough experience to fly a regional route? Probably, in conditions with little potential for an in-flight emergency. Does the FO have the experience? Do they have enough combined experience to be operating a passenger aircraft? Mebbe. But it wouldn't be the first time that a carrier handed the keys to someone who then slammed into a maintenance hangar. There is too much flash attached to the "first" or "youngest" or "oldest" or "insert special group here" instead of relying on the safest....
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: THRAWN on September 27, 2016, 02:30:36 PM
I'm not sure if I should be impressed or worried. The age and experience of flight crews has been a topic of discussion over the past decade or so. Does this pilot have enough experience to fly a regional route? Probably, in conditions with little potential for an in-flight emergency. Does the FO have the experience? Do they have enough combined experience to be operating a passenger aircraft? Mebbe. But it wouldn't be the first time that a carrier handed the keys to someone who then slammed into a maintenance hangar. There is too much flash attached to the "first" or "youngest" or "oldest" or "insert special group here" instead of relying on the safest....


As someone as old as the Captain...these were my thoughts as well!

Eclipse

http://www.linkedin.com/pulse/youngest-commercial-airline-captain-jonathan-keith-o-derek



So what happened to Jonathan Strickland?

He's all over the tubes last year as the "youngest airline Captain" at 25, the video below says
as of August this year he's "flying 767s internationally", (of course in Europe "international" flights
can make CAP sorties look long), but his Linked-in indicates "First Officer", and GoJet is a regional out
of Missouri that only has about 5 destinations.  Perhaps since he wasn't working for a "major"
he doesn't count?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m5SsW6u3oE

"That Others May Zoom"

SarDragon

#4
Here's a bit of info from a link in the Emergency Landing thread:

QuoteThe captain of the flight was Carlos Dardano. At just 29 years of age, Dardano had already amassed 13,410 flight hours. Almost 11,000 of these hours were as pilot in command.

Having that many hours is one thing. How you are using, or not using the experience is another. Back in '07, a couple of pilots, with a combined 53,000 ours in the air, managed a nighttime CFIT.

ETA: Failing to mention the specific event was intentional. Let's keep it that way.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Eclipse

Just to add to the conversation: 

annual salaries

EasyJet
     Captain ~$130k (US)
     Flight Officer ~$60K (US)

Gojet
     Captain ~$60k
     Flight Officer ~$40K

At least in the US, many carriers only pay for flight hours, so while GoJet may
"guarantee" 75 hours a month, there's a lot of unpaid in those numbers as well.

A single guy or gal may be able to couch ride a few years for $40k, but not with a family,
and it's made even harder with 4+ years of college loans, not to mention probably additional
flight training and rentals on your back.

"That Others May Zoom"

grunt82abn

I seen a documentary that showed a lot of UK pilots go and fly Indonesia to build up hours, just to get a job back in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT5gUKJidi0
Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present

PHall

I don't see a "problem" with a 26 year old Captain. There are lot's of 26 year old Aircraft Commanders in Air Mobility Command.
And they command everything from C-130's to C-5's.

goblin

Quote from: PHall on September 28, 2016, 02:04:00 AM
I don't see a "problem" with a 26 year old Captain. There are lot's of 26 year old Aircraft Commanders in Air Mobility Command.
And they command everything from C-130's to C-5's.

Beat me too it. I was flying crews and pax around the world at 26 as the A-Code.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: PHall on September 28, 2016, 02:04:00 AM
I don't see a "problem" with a 26 year old Captain. There are lot's of 26 year old Aircraft Commanders in Air Mobility Command.
And they command everything from C-130's to C-5's.


Do they move tens of thousands of people around per year?

SarDragon

Certainly thousands, and much more cargo.

Sent from my phone.

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: SarDragon on September 28, 2016, 04:03:30 PM
Certainly thousands, and much more cargo.

Sent from my phone.


Cargo isn't really an issue. Much like our ORM, it's about the risk factors. If a Cargo plane goes down, the loss of life is drastically less than if a passanger jet goes down.

SarDragon

A heavy is a heavy. Any pilot who isn't covering his own ass, regardless of what he is carrying, probably shouldn't be in the cockpit.

Flying cargo has its own hazards - composition, tie-down security, etc, things he has little control of.

Sent from my phone.

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Luis R. Ramos

Another thing with cargo. If a cargo plane hits the ground in an uncontrolled manner, it may kill people like a passenger plane crashing.

Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

754837

Quote from: grunt82abn on September 28, 2016, 01:12:55 AM
I seen a documentary that showed a lot of UK pilots go and fly Indonesia to build up hours, just to get a job back in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT5gUKJidi0

Outstanding video - thanks for sharing!  I had not heard of the show & thoroughly enjoyed it.

grunt82abn

Quote from: 754837 on September 28, 2016, 05:47:32 PM
Quote from: grunt82abn on September 28, 2016, 01:12:55 AM
I seen a documentary that showed a lot of UK pilots go and fly Indonesia to build up hours, just to get a job back in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT5gUKJidi0

Outstanding video - thanks for sharing!  I had not heard of the show & thoroughly enjoyed it.
Glad you enjoyed it! I heard about it last semester at the school I was flying at. Several of the graduates actually applied there to build up hours.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present

Flying Pig

We have fighter pilots that age if not younger and honestly... who cares?  Why are people still writing articles about female pilots like its somehow an anomaly ?

Flying Pig

#17
Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on September 28, 2016, 03:28:38 PM
Quote from: PHall on September 28, 2016, 02:04:00 AM
I don't see a "problem" with a 26 year old Captain. There are lot's of 26 year old Aircraft Commanders in Air Mobility Command.
And they command everything from C-130's to C-5's.


Do they move tens of thousands of people around per year?

Completely irrelevant

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Flying Pig on September 28, 2016, 08:10:43 PM
Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on September 28, 2016, 03:28:38 PM
Quote from: PHall on September 28, 2016, 02:04:00 AM
I don't see a "problem" with a 26 year old Captain. There are lot's of 26 year old Aircraft Commanders in Air Mobility Command.
And they command everything from C-130's to C-5's.


Do they move tens of thousands of people around per year?

Completely irrelevant

Disagree.

Luis R. Ramos

Grunt-

Thanks for the Indonesia video. Entertaining and eye opener...
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

PHall

Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on September 28, 2016, 04:55:50 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on September 28, 2016, 04:03:30 PM
Certainly thousands, and much more cargo.

Sent from my phone.


Cargo isn't really an issue. Much like our ORM, it's about the risk factors. If a Cargo plane goes down, the loss of life is drastically less than if a passanger jet goes down.


Actually, cargo IS an issue. Military aircraft move cargo so hazardous that civilian airlines won't even look at it.
We just have special procedures like No Passengers on those flights.

Live2Learn

This thread is really silly.  What do ya'all think the average age of WW2 pilots might a been?  The 'Ol Man (Squadron CO) was seldom much older than this 20 something pilot who's tender years some argue disqualify him to sit in the left seat.  Bob Hoover was 21 when the war started, and barely 24 when it ended.  Chuck Yeager was born in 1923... He was just 18 in 1941.  They and thousands of others who were 'wet behind the ears' according to some on this thread won the air war.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Live2Learn on September 29, 2016, 04:14:33 AM
This thread is really silly.  What do ya'all think the average age of WW2 pilots might a been?  The 'Ol Man (Squadron CO) was seldom much older than this 20 something pilot who's tender years some argue disqualify him to sit in the left seat.  Bob Hoover was 21 when the war started, and barely 24 when it ended.  Chuck Yeager was born in 1923... He was just 18 in 1941.  They and thousands of others who were 'wet behind the ears' according to some on this thread won the air war.


Apples to Oranges. One flies hundreds of civilians, the others may have had a crew of servicemen, or just themselves. Big difference.

Live2Learn

Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on September 29, 2016, 03:15:40 PM
Apples to Oranges. One flies hundreds of civilians, the others may have had a crew of servicemen, or just themselves. Big difference.

What do you suppose these youngsters did after the war?  Many were instrumental in the postwar days of passenger air travel.  Oranges = fruit and the fruit of their competencies continues to benefit us 71 years hence.  I used to work with a guy who had 4500 hours in B-29's.  IMHO Bob Latsy was a VERY competent pilot of aircraft that were more difficult to fly than the ones we launch today.  Bob was about 20 when he became pilot and commander of that machine.  Frankly, I'd prefer someone in the cockpit with his demonstrated ability over any 'systems manager' who flips on the auto pilot at 100' AGL and off (assuming they eschew 'auto land') at 200'. This is a very silly discussion.

THRAWN

Quote from: Live2Learn on September 29, 2016, 03:29:01 PM
Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on September 29, 2016, 03:15:40 PM
Apples to Oranges. One flies hundreds of civilians, the others may have had a crew of servicemen, or just themselves. Big difference.

What do you suppose these youngsters did after the war?  Many were instrumental in the postwar days of passenger air travel.  Oranges = fruit and the fruit of their competencies continues to benefit us 71 years hence.  I used to work with a guy who had 4500 hours in B-29's.  IMHO Bob Latsy was a VERY competent pilot of aircraft that were more difficult to fly than the ones we launch today.  Bob was about 20 when he became pilot and commander of that machine.  Frankly, I'd prefer someone in the cockpit with his demonstrated ability over any 'systems manager' who flips on the auto pilot at 100' AGL and off (assuming they eschew 'auto land') at 200'. This is a very silly discussion.

And we also used to ride horses to work. Times and sources of motivation have changed and comparing things that happened 75 years ago to today is just "silly". Take a look at the NTSB reports on causes of accidents among part 91, 135 and 121 pilots and you'll see that age and experience are frequently cited as contributing factors. Is this pilot in the article a good one? Dunno. Is this pilot statistically more likely to have an accident or incident than other more seasoned captains? The stats seem to indicate that she may....
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Live2Learn

Quote from: THRAWN on September 29, 2016, 03:33:08 PM
...Take a look at the NTSB reports on causes of accidents among part 91, 135 and 121 pilots and you'll see that age and experience are frequently cited as contributing factors. Is this pilot in the article a good one? Dunno....

I think you captured the essence of the discussion here. 

FWIW, the accident stats show an INCREASE in both the incidence and fatality after about age 55-60 or so.  Of course part 121 data for past 60 are sparse because only recently can pilots fly past age 60 to a new retirement age of 65.  We should remember though, pilots over age 60 must have a 'young un' in the other seat.  :)  Medical factors are often implicated with older pilot accidents, but so are bad decisions and failures associated with long term bad habits that finally catch up with 'em.  Both age and experience are important factors in the accident equation.  So is attitude. As you point out, very proficient older pilots may have the wrong experience for the equipment they currently operate.  Newer (younger) pilots may fly with a testosterone hubris afflicting their decisions.  Aeronautical decision making errors occur whether a pilot is brash (like the mid 20's pilot two or three years ago who decided to do low level aerobatics in a Cirrus), or who lacks knowledge of the nuances with new-to-them equipment (for example, Scott Crossfield's flight into a T-Storm because he failed to understand limitations of his in cockpit weather).  As you point out it comes down to this:  "Is this pilot... a good one?"  That he's 26, 36, 46, or 56 is irrelevant... hence the silliness of this thread.

Flying Pig

Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on September 28, 2016, 08:41:55 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 28, 2016, 08:10:43 PM
Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on September 28, 2016, 03:28:38 PM
Quote from: PHall on September 28, 2016, 02:04:00 AM
I don't see a "problem" with a 26 year old Captain. There are lot's of 26 year old Aircraft Commanders in Air Mobility Command.
And they command everything from C-130's to C-5's.


Do they move tens of thousands of people around per year?

Completely irrelevant

Disagree.

Hmmm.. so when I fly my Huey with 12 people in it, it flies differently than when it has 3000lbs of water stuck to the bottom?  How does the role of the PIC change when I have people in it?  When Im flying the Sheriff and command staff to the capitol, how does it change things vs when Im flying solo somewhere in the same aircraft?

grunt82abn

Quote from: Flying Pig on September 29, 2016, 06:04:36 PM
Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on September 28, 2016, 08:41:55 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 28, 2016, 08:10:43 PM
Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on September 28, 2016, 03:28:38 PM
Quote from: PHall on September 28, 2016, 02:04:00 AM
I don't see a "problem" with a 26 year old Captain. There are lot's of 26 year old Aircraft Commanders in Air Mobility Command.
And they command everything from C-130's to C-5's.


Do they move tens of thousands of people around per year?

Completely irrelevant

Disagree.

Hmmm.. so when I fly my Huey with 12 people in it, it flies differently than when it has 3000lbs of water stuck to the bottom?  How does the role of the PIC change when I have people in it?  When Im flying the Sheriff and command staff to the capitol, how does it change things vs when Im flying solo somewhere in the same aircraft?

Not to mention, these same AF pilots, at 26 or younger, dropping thousands of paratrooper each year at 1250 AGL or lower, so I guess they do carry passengers. I agree with Flying Pig
Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present