NCO Program update from the field

Started by JohhnyD, March 25, 2021, 02:30:02 AM

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JohhnyD

In this post COVID year, we are assessing the results of our July 2020 decision to recruit to the NCO Corps. We had over half a dozen interested current and prior service NCOs in our initial pipeline. Now 8 months later we have three in our unit and active. Our unit CC raves about the amazing work they do and our cadets are thriving with their robust ability to explain, demonstrate, train and coach military customs, courtesies, and drill and ceremonies, even during a challenging year. We are growing and the NCO corps has certainly passed the first six months of existence in our unit with flying colors!

The process is simple, the rewards are real. Join in and see what can happen!

Jester

What duty positions are you using them in?

TheSkyHornet


JohhnyD

Quote from: Jester on March 26, 2021, 12:50:53 PMWhat duty positions are you using them in?
Cadet programs and Recruiting and Retention. But they have performed so many additional admin duties that it is hard to enumerate them all. Amazing teammates!

JohhnyD

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on March 26, 2021, 01:44:21 PMWhat's your advertising strategy?
Personal visits to the veterans groups and recruiting and local NG units.

Spam

#5
If you would have recruited them with a bar instead of stripes... would they still have joined, do you think?

(Not trying to generate any arguments about their worth, just whether "NCO program" made a difference). (edit: with respect to recruiting)

V/r
Spam

JohhnyD

Quote from: Spam on March 26, 2021, 03:58:45 PMIf you would have recruited them with a bar instead of stripes... would they still have joined, do you think?

(Not trying to generate any arguments about their worth, just whether "NCO program" made a difference). (edit: with respect to recruiting)

V/r
Spam
In one case yes, in another case he traded in his bars for stripes and the third would probably not have joined.

JohhnyD

Quote from: Spam on March 26, 2021, 03:58:45 PMIf you would have recruited them with a bar instead of stripes... would they still have joined, do you think?

(Not trying to generate any arguments about their worth, just whether "NCO program" made a difference). (edit: with respect to recruiting)

V/r
Spam
Something we heard, again and again, is "I was a sergeant, I worked for a living. Why would I want to be an officer?"

Spam

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 26, 2021, 05:01:46 PM
Quote from: Spam on March 26, 2021, 03:58:45 PMIf you would have recruited them with a bar instead of stripes... would they still have joined, do you think?

(Not trying to generate any arguments about their worth, just whether "NCO program" made a difference). (edit: with respect to recruiting)

V/r
Spam
Something we heard, again and again, is "I was a sergeant, I worked for a living. Why would I want to be an officer?"

OK, thanks. good data points.

 I was wondering if they'd have joined without (or if our "officer" ranks would be a barrier), and that's seemingly a solid answer as to an affinity bias. Or, "our cultural fit", to use another phrase for the same thing. It is interesting to me from a recruiting standpoint (setting aside performance, since the actual volunteer jobs are identical, and since we haven't any solid empirical data either way on cadet outcomes).

It could be (hypothesis here) that the whole NCO program experiment might be justifiable solely from a manpower recruiting standpoint, with the null hypothesis being that recruiting and retention rates between former military NCOs and former military officers are statistically not different (apples to apples, the grade being the variable).

V/r
Spam

NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: Spam on March 26, 2021, 07:57:23 PMIt could be (hypothesis here) that the whole NCO program experiment might be justifiable solely from a manpower recruiting standpoint
As pointed out previously, it's not like "NCO"s have any meaningfully defined duties that are different from "officer" senior members, other than to advise on the NCO program and coordinate with other echelons thereof; so I think that's just about the only purpose right now.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 26, 2021, 05:00:42 PMIn one case yes, in another case he traded in his bars for stripes
Former military officer joining CAP as an NCO? How does that work? Did they have prior NCO grade during their military service ('mustang')?

JohhnyD

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on March 26, 2021, 10:50:07 PMFormer military officer joining CAP as an NCO? How does that work? Did they have prior NCO grade during their military service ('mustang')?
Former USAF NCO who became a SM and earned his bars. Once he was aware that the NCO slot was available, he chose that route.

JohhnyD

Quote from: Spam on March 26, 2021, 07:57:23 PMIt could be (hypothesis here) that the whole NCO program experiment might be justifiable solely from a manpower recruiting standpoint, with the null hypothesis being that recruiting and retention rates between former military NCOs and former military officers are statistically not different (apples to apples, the grade being the variable).

V/r
Spam
Active duty and former NCOs are, in fact, different. They bring a professionalism and specialized knowledge, coupled with a superior work ethic, that is amazing. My experience with prior service officers is very different. They tend to be talkers rather than doers, unless they get to fly.

SarDragon

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on March 26, 2021, 10:50:07 PM
Quote from: Spam on March 26, 2021, 07:57:23 PMIt could be (hypothesis here) that the whole NCO program experiment might be justifiable solely from a manpower recruiting standpoint
As pointed out previously, it's not like "NCO"s have any meaningfully defined duties that are different from "officer" senior members, other than to advise on the NCO program and coordinate with other echelons thereof; so I think that's just about the only purpose right now.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 26, 2021, 05:00:42 PMIn one case yes, in another case he traded in his bars for stripes
Former military officer joining CAP as an NCO? How does that work? Did they have prior NCO grade during their military service ('mustang')?

Could be a situation like I might have done - join CAP and go up through the ranks as an officer, join the military and become an NCO, and then revert to CAP NCO. I chose to remain an officer.

Just a thought.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

NovemberWhiskey

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 26, 2021, 11:24:25 PMActive duty and former NCOs are, in fact, different. They bring a professionalism and specialized knowledge, coupled with a superior work ethic, that is amazing. My experience with prior service officers is very different. They tend to be talkers rather than doers, unless they get to fly.
Stereotypes about NCO vs. commissioned officers notwithstanding, I understand the point that Spam is trying to make is something more like 'if letting NCOs join as "NCOs", rather than making them join as "officers", helps with recruitment/retention, then perhaps that justifies CAP's otherwise non-existent NCO program on its own'.

I think it's great that you're having good luck recruiting NCOs. However, the fact of the matter is there's nothing distinctive in CAP that differentiates the responsibilities of CAP NCO-grades from officer-grades. It's the exact same professional development program, for example, and the duties of CAP NCO-grades are as unlike those of military NCOs as those of CAP officer-grades are unlike those of military officers.

The old saw about "I'm an NCO, I work for a living" is more-or-less meaningless inside of CAP, with respect to CAP mission responsibilities.

JohhnyD

Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on March 26, 2021, 11:47:19 PM
Quote from: JohhnyD on March 26, 2021, 11:24:25 PMActive duty and former NCOs are, in fact, different. They bring a professionalism and specialized knowledge, coupled with a superior work ethic, that is amazing. My experience with prior service officers is very different. They tend to be talkers rather than doers, unless they get to fly.
Stereotypes about NCO vs. commissioned officers notwithstanding, I understand the point that Spam is trying to make is something more like 'if letting NCOs join as "NCOs", rather than making them join as "officers", helps with recruitment/retention, then perhaps that justifies CAP's otherwise non-existent NCO program on its own'.

I think it's great that you're having good luck recruiting NCOs. However, the fact of the matter is there's nothing distinctive in CAP that differentiates the responsibilities of CAP NCO-grades from officer-grades. It's the exact same professional development program, for example, and the duties of CAP NCO-grades are as unlike those of military NCOs as those of CAP officer-grades are unlike those of military officers.

The old saw about "I'm an NCO, I work for a living" is more-or-less meaningless inside of CAP, with respect to CAP mission responsibilities.
You are correct. That said, the reality is that the NCO program is a distinctive (both by uniform and by qualification) corps that has a unique utility. Every CAP NCO is prior or current service NCO. Therefore they are a "known" component of the organization as a whole.

Eclipse

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 27, 2021, 12:33:56 AMthe reality is that the NCO program is a distinctive (both by uniform and by qualification) corps that has a unique utility.

Cite please.

Just a single thing that any member can do, or not do, differently or preferably better, based on their insignia.

Quote from: JohhnyD on March 27, 2021, 12:33:56 AMEvery CAP NCO is prior or current service NCO. Therefore they are a "known" component of the organization as a whole.

The organizaiton knows they were in the military, that's it.

Last I checked, the military services requires you be at least 17, which means NCOs, per se,
have no specific experience or training dealing with adolescents, any more, or less
then anyone else off the street.

CAP doesn't do the kind of SAR a PJOC would, and it doesn't need fieldcraft.

NCOs are not likely to be pilots on the whole.

"That Others May Zoom"

JohhnyD

"Stereotypes about NCO vs. commissioned officers notwithstanding, ..."

My comments were not stereotyping - they are anecdotes based on my own experience.

JohhnyD

Quote from: Eclipse on March 27, 2021, 12:40:50 AMThe organizaiton (sic) knows they were in the military, that's it.

Last I checked, the military services requires you be at least 17, which means NCOs, per se,
have no specific experience or training dealing with adolescents, any more, or less
then anyone else off the street.
I have never seen a 17yo NCO. NCOs do have specific training in being leaders.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 27, 2021, 12:40:50 AMCAP doesn't do the kind of SAR a PJOC would, and it doesn't need fieldcraft.
Odd, who brought up fieldcraft? Then again, ground navigation is a course we do teach, right?
Quote from: Eclipse on March 27, 2021, 12:40:50 AMNCOs are not likely to be pilots on the whole.
Some are - some are not, so what?

SarDragon

Re: 17 yo NCOs - not happening in today's military. Even having accelerated promotions, the amount of training/schooling necessary for that would take someone past his/her 18th birthday. Even in my time, it would have been almost impossible.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

etodd

Quote from: SarDragon on March 27, 2021, 01:20:46 AMRe: 17 yo NCOs - not happening in today's military. Even having accelerated promotions, the amount of training/schooling necessary for that would take someone past his/her 18th birthday. Even in my time, it would have been almost impossible.

I don't think he meant 17 year old NCOs.  He was talking about how we are different in that CAP has 14 year old prepubescent little kids as Cadets.  And NCOs have zero experience leading that age group.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."