Safety Down Day Issue

[Maverick925]

Let me start off by apologizing in advance for being a bit vague here.  I am having an issue with the way my squadron ran its SDD, and am coming here for advice.  I am not giving my name, unit, or wing for concern of reprisal.

Last week, my unit held its Safety Down Day (SDD).  We had more then adequate notice of this.  The morning of the meeting, my father became ill, and I had to stay home to take care of him and my grandfather.  When I contacted my squadron commander about this, he said it would not be a problem, that they would come up with a make up assignment.

This morning, I got an e-mail from the commander and safety officer with the make up assignment.  It was also sent to all the other cadets and seniors who, for whatever reason were not in attendance last week.  The assignment is to answer six very detailed and involved questions, in a minimum of 3500 words.  double spaced.  This works out to 14-16 pages.  I e-mailed my concern to the squadron commander that I thought this was harsh...after all, in four years of college, I only had to write one paper this long...and even schools like Harvard and UPenn only require 500-750 for their admissions essays.  I was told that "This was my directive. It should be painful." (copied directly from the e-mail I was sent in response to mine).

Now, I can't speak for other members as to why they didn't attend the meeting.  I made a decision to take care of my father and grandfather and do not regret that.  however, I think that for any member, what is being asked is unfair.  I understand the need for and fully support CAP's safety program, but don't know how to handle this situation.  Cadets have school, work, social lives, homework, etc., and seniors have things to do too, CAP is after all a volunteer organization.

Can anyone here offer advice on how to handle this?  I have already thought about jumping the chain and going to the wing commander, but am not sure if I want to do that.  Also, I should add that going to another unit for this is out of the question due to transportation issues.

Any advice would be appreciated.  Thank-you all for tolerating me being vague,

Captain X

PS - I should note that this SDD make-up must be done by 31 March in order to participate in unit activities.

[HGjunkie]

I'm sorry, but that's absurd.

I write a lot of papers and do a lot of research, the only time I see an essay approach 3000+ words is when it's an actual research paper.

350 is fine. Moving the decimal over one place is not appropriate for ANY CAP written "Assignment."

[davidsinn]

That's ridiculous. I can't even find a requirement to attend the safety down day. If he won't see reason I would suggest going to the group commander if you have one or the wing commander if you don't have groups. Are you sure it wasn't 350 words?

[Maverick925]

Here are the requirements put forth in an attachment to the e-mail we were sent.  The attachment contains the instructions and questions.

"Safety Day 2012 Make-up Assignment

For those Senior Members and Cadets that were not in attendance for the required CAP Safety Down Day and ORM review – the make-up requirement is to research and deliver a 3500+ Word, or handwritten (legibly) document covering the topics listed below. For purposes of Safety Currency for participation in Squadron meetings and functions, you will not be listed as Current until this requirement is completed and has been reviewed and accepted by the Squadron Safety Officer and the Squadron Commander"

Captain X

[Thrashed]

Just go online and take a safety test. You're done. 

[Maverick925]

This is the annual SDD requirement...not the monthly.  The monthly I can do no problem.  What's funny, is that anyone who missed the SDD last year, was able to go online, watch a few powerpoints, read a couple PDF's, answer a few questions, and the yearly SDD qualification was met.

[EMT-83]

First, if they are calling it a "Safety Down Day" your squadron commander and safety officer are clueless. That terminology is no longer used.

Second, do not jump your chain of command. State your objections in a properly worded memo. Give your squadron leaders an opportunity to resolve the issue.

If you cannot resolve the issue, inform your squadron commander that you are appealing this to the next higher echelon.

My personal opinion is that a serious problem exists. It sounds like someone has their panties in a bunch because folks had the nerve to miss the training, and they are taking revenge. CAPR 62-1 requires each unit to conduct an annual Safety Day, during the first quarter of the calendar year. There is no actual requirement for every member to attend this training. Telling members that they cannot participate in unit activities without this training is not authorized by the regulation.

[Maverick925]

EMT-83...what about regional or national activities?

[davidsinn]

This is the annual SDD requirement...not the monthly.  The monthly I can do no problem.  What's funny, is that anyone who missed the SDD last year, was able to go online, watch a few powerpoints, read a couple PDF's, answer a few questions, and the yearly SDD qualification was met.

There isn't a SDD requirement for the members. The requirement is for the unit to hold the SDD...If you take the online quiz you are automatically listed as current. I don't think you can manually be listed non-current.

[RiverAux]

Pretty ridiculous, especially for the cadets. 

That being said, EMT's advice is sound. 

[davidsinn]

I don't think I would inform him I was going over his head. If he's as vindictive as he sounds, giving him the proof you caused him to get slapped down might not be a good idea.

[Maverick925]

Well, I have an e-mail I am ready to send to the wing commander, and in it, just as on here, I ask to remain anonymous (although in the letter I do give my name).  I just don't want the squadron to find out who alerted wing - if I end up deciding to go that route.

[vento]

+1 on what EMT said.

There are two new checkboxes in eServices for Safety Officers to log in Safety Education. One being for the required 2012 Safety Day and the other for the required ORM presentation or education that is coming in the near future. As far as I know, the requirement is for the unit to present the materials and it does not in anywhere say it is mandatory for every member to take it.

In the past, our Wing had mandated "Safety Down Day" of which every member was required to know the materials, but I don't think this is one of those.

[Eclipse]

Don't play anonymous games, just address it directly.  We're all adults here, right?

For the record, there is no attendance requirement, if you're not there, you're not there.

Not even commanders get to make up requirements like this nonsense.

[a2capt]

The unit is supposed to have a "Safety Day" (they don't use the word 'down') in the first quarter of the year. however calling someone clueless for using it seems rather strong.

CAPR 62-1 says about the Safety Day:

An annual Safety Day will be held in all active units during the months of January, February, or March to focus on improving safety knowledge and attitudes. This will require a day focused entirely on safety subjects applicable to the unit. The Safety Day education to meet this requirement may take place at a regularly scheduled unit meeting providing the entire academic content for that meeting is devoted to safety.

But that's been interpreted broadly across the board. I think that does merit a lot more than the typical monthly safety topic. But 3,500 words? You know what that sounds like to me? .. someone looking for topics for their own presentations

For example, CAWG simply forwarded the notice from National to the unit commanders, about the eServices database update to record the meeting event, and didn't say anything extra or over what the regulation says to do. Another I found, PAWG says:

1: Safety Day. Moved from October. You have until March 31 to have a Safety Briefing of at LEAST one hour on a Safety Topic. Please try to include ORM. You have until March 31 to complete this annual requirement.

Even the CAPR doesn't hint at something as heavy as a thesis. It also doesn't even say attendance is mandatory. Heck, I'm pretty confident that the organization as whole realizes that 100% attendance is basically not possible. I agree that something a little more than the monthly thing could be asked for, for compliance. However there is simply no reporting method for it either, if the safety officer is going to enter a new activity just for the few who have been assigned that monumental task..

You know, someone could easily just record the whole meeting from the corner of the room and pass that around to those who miss it. Then everyone sees the same content in the next couple weeks, everyone spent the same amount of time on the topic, and everyone came away with the same knowledge. That certainly seems fair.


So one wing comes away with "it has to be an hour"...

[Maverick925]

Here's another question.  Let's say that I take some of the posts here and the regulation, cite all to my CO, and his response is something like, "Well, that's NHQ's regulation.  This is XX Wing's."  Would national supersede here?

Pretty much what I'm trying to do is be able to go to my CO with as much ammo as I can get, and then if that doesn't work, I'll jump over him.

[SarDragon]

Just as an aside, is this guy by any chance related to Frankie and Joey Rizzo?   

[Maverick925]

Just as an aside, is this guy by any chance related to Frankie and Joey Rizzo?   

Nope.

[lordmonar]

This is the annual SDD requirement...not the monthly.  The monthly I can do no problem.  What's funny, is that anyone who missed the SDD last year, was able to go online, watch a few powerpoints, read a couple PDF's, answer a few questions, and the yearly SDD qualification was met.

It is requred to have a SDD, not to go to it.

[AngelWings]

I'd ask for a 3500+ word example that the commander and safety officer both wrote for "ideas".

[EMT-83]

The unit is supposed to have a "Safety Day" (they don't use the word 'down') in the first quarter of the year. however calling someone clueless for using it seems rather strong.

No, I don't think clueless is too strong. Sorry, but the safety officer should know 62-1 in his sleep. The squadron commander less so.

Here's another question.  Let's say that I take some of the posts here and the regulation, cite all to my CO, and his response is something like, "Well, that's NHQ's regulation.  This is XX Wing's."  Would national supersede here?

Pretty much what I'm trying to do is be able to go to my CO with as much ammo as I can get, and then if that doesn't work, I'll jump over him.

Wing cannot modify a regulation without a supplement which has been approved by Region and published.

[lordmonar]

Here's another question.  Let's say that I take some of the posts here and the regulation, cite all to my CO, and his response is something like, "Well, that's NHQ's regulation.  This is XX Wing's."  Would national supersede here?

Pretty much what I'm trying to do is be able to go to my CO with as much ammo as I can get, and then if that doesn't work, I'll jump over him.

Listen....I don't know you, your commander or anything.

This is basic conflict resolution.

You are thinking you are being treated wrong (I do to).
Go to your commander tell him you think you are being treated wrong...don't badger him with regs....it is not the point.
If he still makes you do it.  Politely refuse and then call your group or wing commander.
If he does not make you do it and but starts to retaliate go you to you group/wing commander.

That's what the chain of command is for.

[abdsp51]

Everything I have seen has said it's the commanders responsibility to have a safety program, and it is something that can not be passed off to someone else.  This alternate assignment is ludicrous for a SM and more so for a cadet. 

[Maverick925]

Here is the exact e-mail with the assignment.  I have sanitized it for obvious reasons.  If you recognize it, please do not mention ANYTHING about unit name, wing, etc. as I do not know if my CO is on here:

Safety Day 2012 Make-up Assignment

For those Senior Members and Cadets that were not in attendance for the required CAP Safety Down Day and ORM review – the make-up requirement is to research and deliver a 3500+ Word, or handwritten (legibly) document covering the topics listed below. For purposes of Safety Currency for participation in Squadron meetings and functions, you will not be listed as Current until this requirement is completed and has been reviewed and accepted by the Squadron Safety Officer and the Squadron Commander.

•   CAPF – 26 –What is it and how is it used? Show an example of a safety condition that should be reported on the form. Outline the process for handling identified safety issues, including Chain of Command

•   CAPF – 60 – it's importance for each mission. Why is it important to list out medical information and pre-existing medical conditions? List at least 3 medical conditions and their impact to a member or a mission.

•   ORM – define ORM, list the 6 steps in the process and give examples of how ORM is used in CAP planning and meetings. List examples of hoe everyone uses ORM in daily life. Discuss the ORM matrix and how it helps define risk and its mitigation.

•   Dehydration – define dehydration and list some causes. Show knowledge of the stages of dehydration and electrolyte loss and proper ways to correct an imbalance of electrolytes.

•   Hydration – show examples of how someone can remain hydrated, proper preparation for exercise or other activities. Show examples of suitable beverages for hydration, and examples of unsuitable beverages. What adverse effects do cola, caffeinated, and alcoholic beverages present. List some of the health or metabolic effects that caffeine have on the human body.

•   Aircraft and vehicle tire maintenance and safety. Show examples of why aircraft tires are specialized in purpose and some of the maintenance that needs to be done regularly. Show 2 examples of tire malfunction or maintenance issues attributed to fatal aircraft accidents. Outline proper vehicle tire maintenance – how to determine proper inflation pressure, how to check tire pressure and how often it should be checked. Show exapmles of how under and over inflated tires can contribute to vehicle handling, tire wear and other control issues.

[a2capt]

you will not be listed as Current (until this requirement is completed and has been reviewed and accepted by the Squadron Safety Officer and the Squadron Commander.)

Sure you will. Go online and take one of those six courses. You'll show up as Safety Current. Holding that against you is horse pucky. Its March right now, go an do it right now. You mean to tell me they have time for this, who the hell wants to read and review 3,500 words from a bunch of people? Someone has way too much time on their hands.

[Spaceman3750]

Again, make sure it's not a typo. No reason to go half-cocked because someone punched an extra 0.

[Maverick925]

Again, make sure it's not a typo. No reason to go half-cocked because someone punched an extra 0.

It's no typo.  I asked.  I even said in one of my e-mails back to him that "I think 3,500+ words is a bit much."  And he said that was his call to penalize anyone who didn't attend the meeting.

[Spaceman3750]

Again, make sure it's not a typo. No reason to go half-cocked because someone punched an extra 0.

It's no typo.  I asked.  I even said in one of my e-mails back to him that "I think 3,500+ words is a bit much."  And he said that was his call to penalize anyone who didn't attend the meeting.

In that case, follow any combination of the posts above...

[a2capt]

Hmmmm.. if the word "penalize" is being used, you're already past butting heads, and it's more someone strutting stuff and being stubborn.

Offer the solution of a recording being watched. If they have anything to whine about that over, why? You watched the material they prepared, you sat there and did nothing for the same amount of time, it's easier for "them" to prepare that somehow than it is to read several people's 3,500 words and decide if it satisfies them.

Hell, I'd already have jumped heads by now and been on the next commanders desk, if not the one past them by now. Thankfully, I don't have to deal with control freaks and power corrupted individuals as such. We all realize people have lives and responsibilities that are greater than Tuesday nights, and giving what they can to further the program is a greater contribution. So why run them off with BS Power Trips.

Power Corrupts. Absolute Power .. Corrupts Absolutely.

[RiverAux]

Dude, your anonymity is probably blown anyway should anyone involved actually read CAPTalk given the level of detail you've provided.  The info itself is probably enough for the squadron to be identified by those in the know.  So, don't worry about that.  Best thing you could do is stop talking about it here and take the advice given on addressing it directly up the chain of command. 

And do it all by email if at all possible -- never hurts to have some evidence of exactly what was said.

[a2capt]

^^ Already. But. Yeah, and with a "paper" trail. (even virtual paper).

[Al Sayre]

Try this:  A picture is worth a thousand words, 4 pictures of people doing something stupid ought to cover it.

seriously, I'd advise taking this up the chain...

[Extremepredjudice]

Or copy and paste from wikipedia. Or get something from google.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

I agree, take it up the chain, but to your IG. This is the type of complaint that can likely be resolved without a full blown investigation.

Should that not be the case you have made a "protected communication" (see CAPR 123-2) and retaliating for that is not allowed.

[Eclipse]

There's no complaint here, not at least until the unit CC bars access to activities based on this directive.

This is one of those situations that gets blown up quickly for no reason, and then when people handle it wrong, their actions wind up causing more issues then the original problem.

CC's have bosses like everyone else.  This one is likely well intentioned but either misinformed or just following a path to make a point, which is going to ultimately backfire on everyone.  Punishment, especially where it does not fit the infraction, is not leadership, and in this case, there's no infraction.

Direct, professional contact to address the specific issue, and if you go up, CC him on the correspondence. He's just a volunteer like the rest of us, unevenly trained and trying to do the best he can.

If it gets to the point where a complaint is filed, everyone failed.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Let me clarify. If this can not be resolved with the unit CC, I suggest an IG complaint. (That might be to an assistant IG for a group, I do not know exactly how that works as RI has no groups).

We might have to agree to disagree on the "is there a complaint here". One of the options for his IG chain would be to dismiss and inform him as to why.

An other IG option is to "ASSIST the complainant in resolving the issue at the lowest level" (CAPR 123-2). A lot of leeway here to fix the problem without dumping it on the the group / wing CC's desk. But as I mentioned below it gives the member the whistle blower protections in the complaint regulation should the situation go sideways.

One of the IG's jobs is to run the compliant system for the commander. The "assist" in this case would be in the IG files and might only be mentioned in passing to the CC. This kind of data in the IG files might later show where policies need to be clarified or re-written.

[lordmonar]

Again, make sure it's not a typo. No reason to go half-cocked because someone punched an extra 0.

Even if it had an extra zero...it is a stupid assignment.

[Extremepredjudice]

Again, make sure it's not a typo. No reason to go half-cocked because someone punched an extra 0.

Even if it had an extra zero...it is a stupid assignment.

He said he did.

[Maverick925]

Let me clarify. If this can not be resolved with the unit CC, I suggest an IG complaint. (That might be to an assistant IG for a group, I do not know exactly how that works as RI has no groups).

We might have to agree to disagree on the "is there a complaint here". One of the options for his IG chain would be to dismiss and inform him as to why.

An other IG option is to "ASSIST the complainant in resolving the issue at the lowest level" (CAPR 123-2). A lot of leeway here to fix the problem without dumping it on the the group / wing CC's desk. But as I mentioned below it gives the member the whistle blower protections in the complaint regulation should the situation go sideways.

One of the IG's jobs is to run the compliant system for the commander. The "assist" in this case would be in the IG files and might only be mentioned in passing to the CC. This kind of data in the IG files might later show where policies need to be clarified or re-written.

How would I find out who my wing's IG is?

[Eclipse]

It should be posted on the wing's website, or if you call either the wing CC or the wing admin, they would know.

There are org charts available on eServices in reports, but you might not be able to access those.

[Extremepredjudice]

http://bit.ly/wwwkAJ

[davidsinn]

http://bit.ly/wwwkAJ

Actually it was a legitimate question since not all wings even post the information he needs.

[Maverick925]

http://bit.ly/wwwkAJ

Actually it was a legitimate question since not all wings even post the information he needs.

My wing happens to not have any wing staff listing posted, aside from the Wing Commander's biography.

[a2capt]

You didn't look very hard..   I'm looking right at a list of 6 plus a head.

[Extremepredjudice]

His profile says he is from PA? My bad if you didn't need PAWG IG info.

[Maverick925]

I live in PA, but am a member of a wing in a neighboring state.  I left PAWG a couple years ago due to personality conflicts with those in power, and not wanting to risk saying something to put my CAP career under the microscope or make my life hell, I transferred to a squadron in a neighboring state.

[lordmonar]

Well.......remember that at the end of the day it is just CAP.

If you are that fearful of your leadership....maybe it is time to move on.

Because you can't fix things with out making waves.....so either you put up with the BS, ignore the BS and deal with the fall out, or fight the BS and deal with the fall out.

Once people start saying the "don't want to risk their CAP career".....I think maybe you have gotten too involved in CAP.

[Spaceman3750]

Once people start saying the "don't want to risk their CAP career".....I think maybe you have gotten too involved in CAP.

Not wanting to see something ended that you have invested a lot of time, money, and effort in is pretty normal, actually.

[Maverick925]

I call it my CAP career, as I have been involved with the program since 1998, have invested a lot of time, money, and effort into it.  Also, due to health issues (namely back injuries from high school and college, not to mention my weight), I can never join the actual military, so CAP is as close as I can get.  So I take CAP very seriously.  When I was a cadet, I took it even more seriously.  The stereotypical dream cadet you think of, that's what I aspired to....when I wasn't doing homework, odds are I was working on something for CAP.  For the first few years I was a member, the only times I missed meetings were on the Jewish High Holidays.  Hanging out with friends always turned into a CAP activity as at one time, all my friends were in my squadron (we all joined within a few weeks of eachother).  Maybe I do take CAP too seriously, but if I am going to do something, I'm going to do it well and give it my all.

[Nearly Dark Side]

CAP is a volunteer organization and therefore it is something for members to devote a chosen amount of time too. That being said we are required to obey our superiors, but we also have an obligation to inform them if we think that their judgement is misplaced. If you have asked him if he typed too many 0's then I would question the other members who missed the SDD and decide upon a course of action as a group because a group of people who know each other and the commander in question will come to a more sound decision than 20 people on the internet who even with their vast knowledge are not personally involved in this situation and do not know the disposition of the commander. I think that the idea of sending the email to Wing should be a last effort when all attempts to make the commander see reason have failed because skipping the chain of command is a serious action and should be treated as such. Best of luck to you.

[Maverick925]

Due to some misunderstandings, I have asked that this thread be removed.  I have been offered some alternatives by my squadron commander:

1) That you had no less than 5 other dates to attend another Sqdn SDD as make up.  (not doable for me due to transportation issues)
2) Or that our Sqdn had another date to make it up  (I will be in Las Vegas on a trip I booked well before SDD was announced)
3) Or that the essay requirement was dropped to 1000 words  (this is still a lot of research)
4) Or that YOU could have made up your own make up  (This would require at least 8 hours of work online, plus putting them into a curriculum)

I have not decided what I will do yet.  I'm thinking that either quitting or transferring are my best options at this point due to what I perceive as irreparable damage to working relationships.

[davidsinn]

Due to some misunderstandings, I have asked that this thread be removed.  I have been offered some alternatives by my squadron commander:

1) That you had no less than 5 other dates to attend another Sqdn SDD as make up.  (not doable for me due to transportation issues)
2) Or that our Sqdn had another date to make it up  (I will be in Las Vegas on a trip I booked well before SDD was announced)
3) Or that the essay requirement was dropped to 1000 words  (this is still a lot of research)
4) Or that YOU could have made up your own make up  (This would require at least 8 hours of work online, plus putting them into a curriculum)

I have not decided what I will do yet.  I'm thinking that either quitting or transferring are my best options at this point due to what I perceive as irreparable damage to working relationships.

Your commander is clueless. There is no requirement that anybody actually attend the safety day. There is no requirement that it be made up if you missed it. At this point I would contact higher command or the IG because this is completely, off the wall, nuts.

[a2capt]

It's turned into a massive headbutting power trip. Which is.. sadly what I figured it would be. OTOH, 1,000 words? that was probably spent here in the thread. So..

There's been 5 SDD's so far for that unit, this year? Wow. I hope NHQ doesn't catch wind of that and start requiring it because some unit in a small state can do it.

But yes, the requirement is that the unit have the 'event', and that members maintain safety briefing currency by either being logged at the  min. monthly required meeting, or using the online quiz/course system.

The unit command can't withhold entering you.

Guess what? Go online and take a safety course, you're current. When they try to revoke it, one, they can't. So they try to call someone to do it, and when they have to explain the reason, you might actually be able to hear the laughing from the other end of the conversation.

[Maverick925]

The various SDD's are for the other squadrons within the Wing.  I don't drive, so getting to another location is not possible.  As is, I commute via mass transit to squadron meetings.

[Extremepredjudice]

There isn't a reason you need to go to another squadron.

[Maverick925]

There isn't a reason you need to go to another squadron.

Not for this, now.  But I don't see how my CO and I can continue working together.  Too much damage has been done.  It might be time for me to take some significant time off from CAP.

[Private Investigator]

It was also sent to all the other cadets and seniors who, for whatever reason were not in attendance last week.  The assignment is to answer six very detailed and involved questions, in a minimum of 3500 words.  double spaced.  This works out to 14-16 pages. 

Like most things in CAP if you put six sentenances on a page and half they would likely accept it. What did the other people do?

I would not sweat it. I have seen other Squadron Commanders give out assignments like that and never followed up on them.

Stay safe!

[Private Investigator]

There isn't a reason you need to go to another squadron.

Not for this, now.  But I don't see how my CO and I can continue working together.  Too much damage has been done.  It might be time for me to take some significant time off from CAP.

Ask the Squadron Commander to have a chat and see what is up? Some Squadron Commanders especially in their first year or last year in Command get a little (sometimes a lot) silly.

[bflynn]

Well.......remember that at the end of the day it is just CAP.

If you are that fearful of your leadership....maybe it is time to move on.

Because you can't fix things with out making waves.....so either you put up with the BS, ignore the BS and deal with the fall out, or fight the BS and deal with the fall out.

Once people start saying the "don't want to risk their CAP career".....I think maybe you have gotten too involved in CAP.

With respect, I think that if a volunteer member fears his organization, it isn't the member's fault.  You can't blame the victim when those above him are abusing power, which is the only legitimate fear a volunteer has.