Civilian Homeland Security Force

[Auxpilot]

I heard a news clip yesterday that Obama wants to create a Civilian Homeland Security Force that is "just as well funded as the military."

Not sure how he would do that, or who would run it, but it would be interesting to hear the input from others on how something like that would work, if it would work, or if it would be just another big government turd in the punch bowl that creates another hole in the budget.

[A.Member]

I heard a news clip yesterday that Obama wants to create a Civilian Homeland Security Force that is "just as well funded as the military."

Not sure how he would do that, or who would run it, but it would be interesting to hear the input from others on how something like that would work, if it would work, or if it would be just another big government turd in the punch bowl that creates another hole in the budget.

The last thing you said.  It's really a stupid idea.

[JAFO78]

^^Just wait if he gets in WE will be the best funded as he will cut the whole military budget.

Sorry not a political statement. We wouldn't want to make any of them here at CAPTalk.

[notaNCO forever]

 What he wants to do sounds like a National Guard on a national level instead of a state level.

[cnitas]

Civilian Homeland Security Force that is "just as well funded as the military."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_police

KGB
Securitate
Stasi
Secret Police

Standard Communist party stuff.

[Flying Pig]

Thats awesome!   Stand by ladies and gents.  This time next year Ill be taking my dual Form 5 in the new CAP UH-60 CAPHAWK and doing cadet O-rides in our fleet of Cessna Citations.  Its the Utopia that Ive only imagined in my wildest dreams!

[jeders]

I heard a news clip yesterday that Obama wants to create a Civilian Homeland Security Force that is "just as well funded as the military."

Not sure how he would do that, or who would run it, but it would be interesting to hear the input from others on how something like that would work, if it would work, or if it would be just another big government turd in the punch bowl that creates another hole in the budget.

Any citation for that? I'd like to read/hear/see that myself.

[Smithsonia]

Actually the integration of U.S. military and civil/domestic capability is good and coming along. The ICS system comes straight from the Military General's Command Staff system. Both systems work. Both have different jobs (one is built for war and one is obviously not) both have divisions of responsibility, specific assignments, and are scalable from auto accidents/small fire fights to nuclear war/domestic nuclear terrorism incidents.

I've advocated for years that each side of this equation study each other up-close. Sheriff's/State Adj. Generals/Wild Land Fire/Hurricane FEMA response teams should all attend some military maneuvers. BUT, not on the shoot and loud bang side but the quiet computer room command staff side.

That said, the military can learn a lot from the Sheriffs about public accountability and servicing civilians inside their Theater of Command/Operations. This cross pollination should be done NOW. It should be ongoing. It should build. I know the Posse Commitatis  (sp?) issues will come up. Those can be worked through by lawyers. That said, Homeland Security money should be spent to align and cross train to get better knowledge into the field. FEMA, CAP, National Guard, HSD, FBI, Marshalls, Red Cross, Salvation Army, Coast Guard, etc. all should have strike force quick response self supported teams that can make it to the field in a timely basis with follow up support coming within 48 hours. The trick is to be disciplined and ready. Trained and tested. Cocked and ready to rock. Cross trained and interoperable. We've got enough people, we need a better plan. We need better training. We need to be serious. Sign me up.

[Rob Sherlin]

  I think as long as we get true Americans in a frame of mind to be aware of the problem, and act on it when they notice something is wrong, then we don't need a "spacial program" for it. Working at a hotel thats less than a half a mile from the Canadian/US border, I've got to know a lot of Border Patrol and US custom agents who let me know a lot of the problems and what to look out for. There are a lot of unwanted people sneaking in through Canada, that somehow, they are not catching (look at the individuals responsible for 9/11, that's how they got in). There's a lot of money laundering, There's people from India coming in from Canada, buying businesses, forming LLC's, getting the grants and loans that NY. and the city offers them with the promise they'll fix up the hotel and bring in more jobs. Then, they pocket all the money (ok, maybe paint a wall, or walkway to show they're doing something with the money) , milk the business for all it's worth, then disolve the LLC and run back across the border, with huge debts to everyone they've delt with (utilities, government, and private businesses), that are almost impossible to collect (and the state lets them get away with it over and over again). I have always wondered why when they sell the hotels, they will only sell to other people from India, but turn down offers for more money from Americans.....There's something wrong with that!
  Bottom line is...you have a bordering country who's immigration laws are somewhat easy, you have ourselves with a pretty much "open door" policy where it's not to hard to get amnesty once you're here, you have coruption (or
 The people I've met here since I've moved here know this is going on, but don't do anything about it. Things are so bad that they tend to think, "Well, at least I have a job working for them......for now anyway!"
  I put emphises on that subject because I've seen it time and time again since I've been here. I've wrote to the Newspapers, the City, the County, and the Satae, but nothing is done and it gets me irritated because I see it as economic abuse from people who are not even American...Therefore, I kind of see it as economic terrorism. The money that is given to them comes from taxpayers, and they keep getting away with it......No wonder why NY. taxes are so high!
  I just thinnk more people should be aware, and take more of a stand when they think or see something isn't quite right. If (even at city level) they only hear a handfull of people complaining, it will get filed (you know what I mean). If there's hundreds complaining, they'll at least have to look into it.
  If anything, it should be our duty as Americans to do something about it. W'ere letting people from other countries to come in, abuse funds, American workers, and other businesses they deal with,then get away with it. Meanwhile, our country is in economical chaos! Who's to say these people aren't using the money we give them for some other cause that's against us...They're certainly not using it for what it's meant for.
  Wow! Maybe I went overboard on the length of this, but what I've seen and delt with really irritates me (especially because if you're American you have to go through heck to get deals for your own business like that, and they abuse it at our expense).

 Thanks for letting me vent...I promise I'll watch the lenth of my posts from now on.

[Rob Sherlin]

OOPS1
  Sorry, that missing part was ...there's coruptive deals on either the city level or beyond to let this continue...someone has to be getting something out of it to let this happen!

  I realize I didn't edit the post...so forgive the errors please

[cnitas]

Any citation for that? I'd like to read/hear/see that myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s

Comment was on July 2

"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

The context for that statement was a preview of parts of his plan to vastly expand community service opportunities.

[jeders]

Any citation for that? I'd like to read/hear/see that myself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s

Comment was on July 2

"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

The context for that statement was a preview of parts of his plan to vastly expand community service opportunities.

CAP and other volunteer and community service organizations are great. But I really don't want a program where I'm being defended by people who can walk away at any time without consequences because they're "just volunteers"

[Flying Pig]

Unfotunately, civilian "volunteers" don't protect anyone, no matter what their title.   If they are going to invest money into programs for Homeland Security, I would like to see it go to beef up the ranks of the gunslingers and intelligence ranks.  Lets face it, when it hits the fan, its not civilian volunteers who take care of it.  I know there are many who are committed, but I dont want to see military level spending put up to train people who might be "busy" when the call comes.  Regardless of what many people may think, there is a completely different level of commitment with people who's paid profession is "protecting".  Its paid men and women with guns and badges, or both, who get it done in the end.

[A.Member]

I know the Posse Commitatis  (sp?) issues will come up.

And there ends the discussion.  The Act was created for a purpose. 

In addition, aside from being a meaningless and unneeded "proposal", how on God's green Earth does he plan to pay for all these silly proposals? 

Oh yeah, that's right:
After election, Democrats will call for 25% decrease in military spending

After the November election, Democrats will push for a second economic stimulus package that includes money for the states' stalled infrastructure projects, along with help paying for healthcare expenses, food stamps and extended unemployment benefits, U.S. Rep. Barney Frank said Thursday.

In a meeting with the editorial board of The Standard-Times, Rep. Frank, D-Mass., also called for a 25 percent cut in military spending, saying the Pentagon has to start choosing from its many weapons programs, and that upper-income taxpayers are going to see an increase in what they are asked to pay.

The military cuts also mean getting out of Iraq sooner, he said...

...' We don't need all these fancy new weapons. I think there needs to be additional review."

I'm all for fiscal responsibility and accountability but to call for a 25% reduction in military spending at a time when so much equipment needs replacement is ridiculous and even irresponsible.

[Flying Pig]

The one thing that irks me when the number "$10 billion per month" is used to talk about Iraq, the salaries and everyday expenses of the military are included.  Costs that would be there whether we were fighting a war or not.  You can make stats show anything you want.  Which I think is dangerous when people start using it to justify significantly decreased military spending.

[Sleepwalker]

This is a great big BAD idea!  With respect to Smithsonia, it is also unconstitutional.  You cannot have the Military (of any sort!) policing America!  That is what our founders from George Washington on have fought against since before the Constitution was even a rough draft.  A "Civillian Homeland Security" would have the potential to allow these forces to be unleashed against anyone who is "unpatriotic", defined by whomever is in power.  Let's not go there! 

(Note: Read the historical rise of people like Hitler and Stalin, and how they went about doing it)

[BigMojo]

...and he shall call it "US Ranger Corp"

[RiverAux]

Boy, did you fellas get so hopped up with Pres. Bush proposed a similar program a few years ago?  Nothing really came of it either. 

[Flying Pig]

What exactly did he propose though?  It wasn't anything near military spending levels for a volunteer force.  Put in the right context if you are going to use the comparison

[Smithsonia]

Sleepwalker;
I didn't say the military should police America. I said we should learn to organize ourselves (National Guard, CAP, Homeland Security, Salvation Army etc.) SO that we can work with anybody under any circumstance. The military is figuring this out. For instance when the Army needs an Air Strike they can call on Navy, when Marines need a rescue they can call upon Army, etc. We should learn and take notes. We should apply this knowledge in our fields of work. There are lesson we can apply. Once again the ICS System that we are practicing is built from a military model.

If we can't learn and apply these lessons in the field then the Real Deal Military will be saving our collective hind-quarters and you'll see people begging to have the 1st Division drive into every town every time there's a Katrina... which is what happened in Katrina. General Honore was a full Army two star under Marshall law with real soldiers under his command. This happens when things get out of hand. My point is to NOT let it get out of hand. In other words work to higher levels of competency using every trick in the book. The Air Force and Army have some good books and good people. Go on a Air Force guided assessment for the CAP some time and you'll see the difference. My point is to not wait for this assessment cycle to come around but seek out the best emergency planning and adapt it to our missions.

Adapt, modify, practice, utilize, or not. We make this deal of learning every good lesson that is inside all of the Government or we lose our funding by becoming useless when the chips are down.

[Sleepwalker]

I understand what you meant, now that you clarified your thoughts.  The original problem I had was your sentance "Actually the integration of U.S. military and civil/domestic capability is good".  I don't have any problem with learning lessons from each other, or working with each other, just not have any direct "integration".  As an historian, I know that this is always the first step would-be despots take.   

[CAPLAW]

I remember that they tried this back in Germany. 

[RiverAux]

This "issue"  popped up yesterday in several other discussion groups I am a part of and I suspect as part of an organized campaign, probably designed to try to scare people about a certain candidate.  I wouldn't take it seriously

[Auxpilot]

My gut is that his proposal is at best silly and at worst dangerous. I'm not sure if it shows a lack of understanding regarding the enemy that faces us, or a lack of support for our military.

I fear the latter is the driving force here.

Having been active Air Force when the money started to dry up under previous inept leadership, I can tell you that mistakes made in the next four years will haunt us for decades. They don't go away in 2012.

Barney Frank wants to cut the military budget by 25% - who is he working for, Osama

[Smithsonia]

Sleepwalker;
I am an Historian too. Civil Liberties are important to guard. By providing domestic services at a higher level is better than turning it over to the military in a pinch. Fire Brigades of volunteers became paid Fire Departments because the volunteers couldn't keep up. Militias of Minutemen became the Army and Marines because farmers and shop keepers couldn't fill the bill.

We must rise to the occasion and call to duty. Our missions must expand to remain relevant. BUT, that is another topic, entirely. On this subject -- training to the highest levels, remaining volunteer, serving our country, being experts in our fields and at our duties -- will preserve domestic tranquility and enhance our liberties -- not sacrifice those liberties. If George Washington were alive today he'd lead the National Guard or the CAP because for him we are as close as it gets to what he once knew and understood. BUT, just because we are volunteers doesn't mean we can't be professional with our missions.

[Sleepwalker]

  Then I think we are in agreement. 

[Flying Pig]

I don't think anyone is saying volunteers cant be professional, however, you are never going to have the same level in a part time volunteer as someone who is paid to do that job as a career/profession.  Unless of course, that volunteer acts in the same or similar capacity as a volunteer that they do in their paid life.  Believe me, I do Homeland Security, SAR and Law Enforcement as a CAP volunteer and as a paid career.  So if we are going to spend cash. I say beef up the paid ranks first.

[Smithsonia]

Flying Pig;
Volunteers are not as good as a paid professional. Really? I am so high priced as to not be affordable for anyone   national clients OR for the work I give for free to the CAP. I know that you allowed for this caveat in your blog. BUT, some stuff I give to CAP, is more than what is being generated inside all of the military.

My field is Media Relations, Public Affairs, Newsroom Consulting. I just came back from many days selling my services on a Navy project for a very good price. If asked, I'd donate the same information to CAP. So I suppose for some things you may be right BUT for many others I think you are quite mistaken. Similar for several pilots that have 20,000 hours in AF and Airlines and anoher 5000 hrs SAR for CAP. Don't short sell what we have and therefore what we can do.

IF you'd like it better: Pay us for one weekend a month and 2 weeks in the summer and make us even more professional. Of course, there are many issues under this idea and I don't want to drift the thread.

[Ned]

With respect to Smithsonia, it is also unconstitutional.  You cannot have the Military (of any sort!) policing America!

Ahh, no.  Using the military to enforce laws is a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act, not the Constitution.

And if Congress wants to enact a law that would allow the military (or anyone else) to enforce laws, they could do so with a simple majority vote and the President's signature.

And a civilian law enforcement force is not prohibited by the PCA or any other federal law.  Heck. that's kind of what the FBI is doing every day, isn't it?

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[Smithsonia]

I think folks are getting a little hung up on what the military does. They shoot people and blow up stuff. BUT, they also have communication nets, command and control protocols, progressive training and educational programs. They do lot's of things that we can learn from. GPS, Sat-Imaging, Hand held radios, etc. are all military adapted equipment. So is SAR by plane. ARPA and DARPA through the Dept of Justice and then FEMA have many programs that we should coat tail and many ideas which we can use. Besides I doubt they'll ever allow me to drive an F-16 on age factors alone. Those of you that see the military one way are missing an opportunity. The opportunity to learn, adapt, modify, and train.

[blackrain]

Greetings to all on this election night. Fortunately I'm finally back in the states now and enjoying what this great nation has to offer.

Good discussion and I think it does touch on issues we've all discussed before. I agree with flying pig that paid professional should be funded first as a core force with volunteers plusing up as needed. More well trained paid professionals can only help improve the skill level of the volunteers.

In fairness the National Guard is a military organization that can do Federal military mission under command of the President and a state law enforcment/civil defense role under the command of that particular states governor so it's not unprecedented to have an essentially military organization doing a domestic mission.

Can't wait to see how this all plays out at any rate

[LittleIronPilot]

I think folks are getting a little hung up on what the military does. They shoot people and blow up stuff. BUT, they also have communication nets, command and control protocols, progressive training and educational programs. They do lot's of things that we can learn from. GPS, Sat-Imaging, Hand held radios, etc. are all military adapted equipment. So is SAR by plane. ARPA and DARPA through the Dept of Justice and then FEMA have many programs that we should coat tail and many ideas which we can use. Besides I doubt they'll ever allow me to drive an F-16 on age factors alone. Those of you that see the military one way are missing an opportunity. The opportunity to learn, adapt, modify, and train.

Understood....so long as it is also understood that the military's NUMBER ONE MISSION should ALWAYS be to "break things and kill people".

[Smithsonia]

I'm not speaking of changing the military one little bit. I'm for going through their entire program and picking the best  information and procedures for CAP. When GPS rolled out, the military couldn't quite understand why and how civilian folks would use it. So, they provided an open door policy for civilian side information and technical review inside ARPA/DARPA. They provided information from what had been military information through USGS, FAA, and many other civilian sources. This information was first built through the Global Strategic Survey. This information was originally developed so the military knew the Lat/lons of everybody in the world. They needed this information just in case they would call in a Air Strike on your BBQ. This office was made to facilitate the transfer of information for a more peaceful purpose.

It didn't change the military's commitment to blowing up things. It did change civilians abilities to navigate the world. The technical guys that declassify these things are interesting. Meaning, until they figure out and deploy an anti or safety-device they won't clear the original device for civilian use. SO, in this case they deployed the detunable GPS-SAT. This kind of reclassification isn't a priority. Emphasis on this activity comes and goes. It goes as we gear up for war, and information closes down. It comes during hard economic times and on-coming peace/withdrawal when the military is fighting fewer enemies and more congressional bean counters. As an act of defensive goodwill they show all the material and information that they can declassify and pass it to civilian use. They do this to get tax dollars and justify their budgets. Which is likely now or soon. GPS was rolled out during Gulf War 1 and took off in the following economic downturn.

As part of some very near future National economic stimulation package the military will open up again. They prefer to work with people they trust. CAP is trustworthy. We should have people ready to cherry pick the best ideas for our missions without compromising the military's missions. AND, we should be ready to teach what we know to anyone that needs to know (given OpSec) without compromising our mission.

[wuzafuzz]

Unfotunately, civilian "volunteers" don't protect anyone, no matter what their title.   If they are going to invest money into programs for Homeland Security, I would like to see it go to beef up the ranks of the gunslingers and intelligence ranks.  Lets face it, when it hits the fan, its not civilian volunteers who take care of it.  I know there are many who are committed, but I dont want to see military level spending put up to train people who might be "busy" when the call comes.  Regardless of what many people may think, there is a completely different level of commitment with people who's paid profession is "protecting".  Its paid men and women with guns and badges, or both, who get it done in the end.

There are lots of reserve and volunteer deputies, police officers, firefighters, and EMS folks who bring plenty to the table.  They are marginalized in some jurisdictions but carry the day in others.  By all means beef up the paid ranks when possible, but don't discount the value of properly trained and committed volunteers.  Most importantly, use the right resource for the job at hand.

[Cecil DP]

Barney Frank wants to cut the military budget by 25% - who is he working for, Osama

Well he is the most openly gay congressman we have. In fact several years ago one of his roomates ran a "callboy" operation out of the congressman's apartment.

[DNall]

That whole concept is innate distrust and fear of the military.

Recruiting is going to drop off bad now. And budgets are going to get slashed. Not 25%, but bad. We're strained now. When cut back, we'll be drastically restrained in what we're capable of overseas. That means the country has to take a big step back in the GWOT, and undertake a more isolationist approach.

War is diplomacy by other means. You can't disengage militarily, including from being the world's policeman, without in turn disengaging economically or losing diplomatic leverage. All this will ultimately lead to a lot bigger and more costly fight down the road. That's really unfortunate that not everyone understands this.

Anyway, cuts to the military budget will be magnified in the CAP budget. There's less slack to swing our way. You can expect less training resources & downsizing the paid staff.

I do not expect any civilian national security force to get off the ground. That whole phrase sounds VERY frightening. I can't imagine the ACLU or all the congressmen that fought so hard against the Patriot Act would be able to support such an idea in any form. To whatever extent it does happen, CAP will not benefit. In fact, I would keep CAP as far away from such a political hot potato as possible. i would not want to get caught in any backlash or crossfire when it starts to come apart.

[RRLE]

First, I voted for the other guy. Second, as RiverAux wrote this topic popped up all over the internet the day before the election. Third, if you all take a deep breath and really read the position paper then you might find out that CAP could benefit.

Try reading: HELPING ALL AMERICANS SERVE THEIR COUNTRY: BARACK OBAMA AND JOE BIDEN'S PLAN FOR UNIVERSAL VOLUNTARY CITIZEN SERVICE. There should be plenty in there to warm the hearts of CAP recruiters.

[A.Member]

Try reading: HELPING ALL AMERICANS SERVE THEIR COUNTRY: BARACK OBAMA AND JOE BIDEN'S PLAN FOR UNIVERSAL VOLUNTARY CITIZEN SERVICE. There should be plenty in there to warm the hearts of CAP recruiters.

That does not address his his proposed civilian security force as stated in his speech.  But I do love this contradiction of Barney Frank's recent statement:

Before the 2000 election, George Bush and Dick Cheney famously told our military "Help is on the way."

Today, the active Army is short 3,000 captains and majors, and 58 percent of recent West Point graduates are choosing to leave the force – double the historic average. We do not have a single combat brigade at home in reserve, ready for an unexpected crisis. Our National Guard and Reserves have only half the equipment levels they need, hampering their ability to respond to crises, foreign and domestic. Barack Obama and Joe Biden will strengthen the military and enable more men and women to serve their country in the armed forces.

Expand to Meet Military Needs on the Ground: A major stress on our troops comes from insufficient ground forces. Barack Obama and Joe Biden support plans to increase the size of the Army by 65,000 troops and the Marines by 27,000 troops. Increasing our end strength will help units retrain and re-equip properly between deployments and decrease the strain on military families.

Solve Recruitment and Retention Problems: A nation of 300 million strong should not be struggling to find enough qualified citizens to serve. Recruiting and retention problems have been swept under the rug by lowering standards and using the "Stop Loss" program to keep our servicemen and women in the force after their enlistment has expired. Even worse, the burdens of fixing these problems have been placed on the shoulders of young recruiting sergeants, instead of leadership in Washington. America needs a leader who can inspire today's youth to serve our nation the same way President Kennedy once did—reaching out to youth, as well as the parents, teachers, coaches, and community and religious leaders who influence them. Barack Obama and Joe Biden will make it a presidential imperative to restore the ethic of public service to the agenda of today's youth, whether it be serving their local communities in such roles as teachers or first responders, or serving in the military and reserve forces or diplomatic corps that keep our nation free and safe.

Rebuild the Military for 21st-Century Tasks: As we rebuild our armed forces, we must meet the full spectrum needs of the new century, not simply recreate the military of the Cold War era. In particular, we must focus on strengthening the ground force units and skills that military officers have dubbed "High Demand/Low Density."

The U.S. military must:
• Build up our special operations forces, civil affairs, information operations, engineers, foreign area officers, and other units and capabilities that remain in chronic short supply.
• Invest in foreign language training, cultural awareness, and human intelligence and other needed counterinsurgency and stabilization skill sets.
• Create a specialized military advisors corps, which will enable us to better build up local allies' capacities to take on mutual threats.

Guarantee Our Ground Forces Have the Proper Training for New Challenges: Obama and Biden will ensure that Soldiers and Marines have sufficient training time before they are sent into battle. This is not the case at the moment, where American forces are being rushed to Iraq and Afghanistan, often with less individual and unit training than is required...

...Ensure the Guard and Reserves Can Meet their Homeland Security Missions: The poor readiness of America's Guard and Reserve forces threatens our ability to respond to natural disasters or terrorist attacks at home. We saw this, sadly, after both Hurricane Katrina and the tornadoes in Kansas. Because of the depletion of its resources in Iraq, the National Guard is less ready today than it was on 9/11. Nearly 90 percent of units have serious equipment shortages; many have less than 1/3 of the equipment they require. A particular focus of the Obama-Biden plan will be to reverse the trend of "cross-leveling," the cannibalizing of soldiers and machines from units back home for missions abroad.

Make the Reserve and National Guard Components Whole: Today, the selected Reserve makes up 37 percent of the total force, but only receives 3 percent of the equipment funding and 8 percent of total DOD budget. Barack Obama and Joe Biden will resource and equip the Reserve and Guard to meet their missions not only overseas, but also at home. Barack Obama's administration will consult regularly with governors of the 50 states on the needs of their Guard units.

Now, when you're making more recent statements about cutting 25% of the military spending (their words, not mine), how on God's green earth can you retain readiness levels let alone expand programs?!  So, which is it?  Doesn't look like they're on the same page.  Can't wait to hear that one explained. 

I agree 100% with DNall...CAP stays as far away from this steaming dung pile as possible - we don't want the stink to get attached to us.

[Flying Pig]

Unfotunately, civilian "volunteers" don't protect anyone, no matter what their title.   If they are going to invest money into programs for Homeland Security, I would like to see it go to beef up the ranks of the gunslingers and intelligence ranks.  Lets face it, when it hits the fan, its not civilian volunteers who take care of it.  I know there are many who are committed, but I dont want to see military level spending put up to train people who might be "busy" when the call comes.  Regardless of what many people may think, there is a completely different level of commitment with people who's paid profession is "protecting".  Its paid men and women with guns and badges, or both, who get it done in the end.

There are lots of reserve and volunteer deputies, police officers, firefighters, and EMS folks who bring plenty to the table.  They are marginalized in some jurisdictions but carry the day in others.  By all means beef up the paid ranks when possible, but don't discount the value of properly trained and committed volunteers.  Most importantly, use the right resource for the job at hand.

Your missing my point.  When we are talking about a volunteer Homeland Security Force, I am seeing something like CAP on a larger scale. Hence.....civilians with no authoriity.  I am not talking about Reserve Deputies and firefighters, who bring with them some type of law enforcement authority.  If his idea is to have a national reserve police, then I still say NO anyway.

[A.Member]

Your missing my point.  When we are talking about a volunteer Homeland Security Force, I am seeing something like CAP on a larger scale. Hence.....civilians with no authoriity.  I am not talking about Reserve Deputies and firefighters, who bring with them some type of law enforcement authority.  If his idea is to have a national reserve police, then I still say NO anyway.

Agreed. And if it's something else, explain what it would do that one of the umpteen hundred different federal, state, or local agencies and/or volunteer services don't already do.

[cnitas]

-It would get 10x as many people out there looking for bad guys on the street. 

-It would generate more 'leads' for law enforcement.

-Would help prevent domestic terrorism.

-It would give the 'army' of volunteers a clear expectation and method to report suspected activity directly to those who can 'connect the dots'.

-This would be a great way to give DHS some real teeth.

-This is also the method used to control populations ala dictatorial regimes.

Lets hope this was just a random thought along the campaign trail and Obama has since reconsidered.

[Flying Pig]

Thats just it.....we dont need it.  Id would be all for expanding CAPs equipment, and training, and maybe even offering CAP members some type of..((cough)) pay.  Imagine flying the border with a FLIR equipped Airvan with a pilot, Observer and FLIR operator in the back.  Yea howdy!

[JohnKachenmeister]

It is all campaign rhetoric.  Right up there with cutting taxes for 95 percent of the people, and only raising taxes on people and businesses making over $250,000 per year.  Or $150,000 per year, or maybe $120,000 per year, nobody knows.  

All we really know about Obama is that he is far-left is his political views, and will try to move the country as far left as he can get away with.  Far left means anti-military, regardless of what he says.

[Flying Pig]

What we do know on a Homeland Security level is that our new President Elect just got his first crash course in foreign policy yesterday from the Russian President and the Russian Prime Minister.

[davidsinn]

-It would get 10x as many people out there looking for bad guys on the street. 

Or Joe sixpack down the street that does something they don't like

-It would generate more 'leads' for law enforcement.

Or false leads to get back at a neighbor that annoys them

-Would help prevent domestic terrorism.

Nope. It'll happen as long as there is evil in this world.

-It would give the 'army' of volunteers a clear expectation and method to report suspected activity directly to those who can 'connect the dots'.

Or turn them into "party informants."

-This would be a great way to give DHS some real teeth.

That's what I'm afraid of. See below.

-This is also the method used to control populations ala dictatorial regimes.

Bingo. We have a winner.

Lets hope this was just a random thought along the campaign trail and Obama has since reconsidered.

For everyone's sake let's hope so. Don't forget that after voting our duty is now to hold our elected officials accountable for their actions.

[Cecil DP]

Will the new 'Homeland Security Force" be wearing Black shirts or brown??

[MIKE]

^ Godwin!

[davidsinn]

^ Godwin!

Although Godwin's law does not make exceptions for valid comparisons I do believe that this comparison is a valid one and something we should be leery of.

[davedove]

Will the new 'Homeland Security Force" be wearing Black shirts or brown??

Bringing it a typical CAP Talk discussion, will I be able to wear my CAP ribbons on the shirt?

[notaNCO forever]

 All CAP ribbons will be authorized.

[Trouble]

I heard a news clip yesterday that Obama wants to create a Civilian Homeland Security Force that is "just as well funded as the military."

Not sure how he would do that, or who would run it, but it would be interesting to hear the input from others on how something like that would work, if it would work, or if it would be just another big government turd in the punch bowl that creates another hole in the budget.

Sounds like a National Paramilitary Police Force, something along the lines of France's "Gendarmerie Nationale".    http://www.defense.gouv.fr/gendarmerie


There are advantages to having such a Force but there are also some very big disadvantages also . . .   

[Smithsonia]

There is nothing on the planet from fire to ice, from medicine to love that does NOT have a perverse misuse. Stating the obvious is not adding to the conversation or wrestling with our future.

The Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, and CAP ARE paramilitary units. (meaning to have elements inside of and perform customs that are taken from the military) In our way we are military light, so to speak. We decide to what extent we become a tyrant's tool or a service group to fellow citizens. Drug Dealers will always think us snitches for "da man" or capitalist's tool, and cop loving squares (obsolete terms that I haven't heard recently but you get the idea)

To worry about contentious words, is useless. Right now we're thought Air Force wannabees and baby-blue AF, so what? To think over to what extent we can help our fellow citizens in times of need is good. To ask the new administration how we can be of service and how they see us fit with their plans... is neither wrong nor bad. For my way of thinking our biggest problem is not from without but within. We argue, disrespect, and often dislike one another for the silliest of reasons

Chances are, there aren't many people inside the new Obama Administration who either know of us or have plans for us. We should simply introduce ourselves and ask -- How can we be of "Service To America." We should do this with each new administration. After all, the military does exactly the same with each executive succession. There will be General's who will come and go and units that will rise and fall on these same plans.

Once we hear the Obama Administration's answer then we can discuss the onerous possibility and guard against it or proceed as we see fit. Any of us can quit at any time we choose. In this way we do have it better than soldiers who must wait for their hitch to end. In the meantime... this thread is turning into MEAN TIME.

[Auxpilot]

Looks like at least one member of Congress will be voting against a new security force :clap:

Georgia congressman warns of Obama dictatorship
By BEN EVANS – 13 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — A Republican congressman from Georgia said Monday he fears that President-elect Obama will establish a Gestapo-like security force to impose a Marxist or fascist dictatorship.

"It may sound a bit crazy and off base, but the thing is, he's the one who proposed this national security force," Rep. Paul Broun said of Obama in an interview Monday with The Associated Press. "I'm just trying to bring attention to the fact that we may — may not, I hope not — but we may have a problem with that type of philosophy of radical socialism or Marxism."

Broun cited a July speech by Obama that has circulated on the Internet in which the then-Democratic presidential candidate called for a civilian force to take some of the national security burden off the military.

"That's exactly what Hitler did in Nazi Germany and it's exactly what the Soviet Union did," Broun said. "When he's proposing to have a national security force that's answering to him, that is as strong as the U.S. military, he's showing me signs of being Marxist."

Obama's comments about a national security force came during a speech in Colorado about building a new civil service corps. Among other things, he called for expanding the nation's foreign service and doubling the size of the Peace Corps "to renew our diplomacy."

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set," Obama said in July. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

Broun said he also believes Obama likely will move to ban gun ownership if he does build a national police force.

Obama has said he respects the Second Amendment right to bear arms and favors "common sense" gun laws. Gun rights advocates interpret that as meaning he'll at least enact curbs on ownership of assault weapons and concealed weapons. As an Illinois state lawmaker, Obama supported a ban on semiautomatic weapons and tighter restrictions on firearms generally.

"We can't be lulled into complacency," Broun said. "You have to remember that Adolf Hitler was elected in a democratic Germany. I'm not comparing him to Adolf Hitler. What I'm saying is there is the potential."

Obama's transition office did not respond immediately to Broun's remarks.

[davidsinn]

Godwin's law strikes again. And yet again it's a valid comparison. This is unnerving.

[jimmydeanno]

I'd hate to see this thread go away, but I'm concerned that it will take on too much of a political / gun control / gestapo approach as opposed to the intended "How would this type of program affect us in CAP."

While I'm not a fan of having an SS style police force roaming the streets, I would like to see the expansion of SUPPORT for civilian community based organizations like CAP who provide a real service to local communities.

These types of organizations help because the mission that we perform can be individualized to the local community and provides direct results that are shown locally.  People can see the results immediately.

However, being the type of person I am, I would prefer to see a bigger state influence in these matters than a federal one.  I also don't think that it is all that fiscally possible considering our current 10 Trillion dollar public debt. 

[davidsinn]

I'm with you Jimmy. We don't need a new force at all. We have all we need we just need better funding. CAP could get a new funding source out of this but needs to be very careful what image we present to the public.

[Auxpilot]

I too am all for increasing the civilian volunteer component of HLS. Although not the answer to all of the threats that face us today, CAP can be of some assistance, especially with border issues. We don't need a big pile of cash to do that, but it would take some increased technology in our planes to really make it effective.

Our role would be to put more eyes on the borders, not replace the professionals that do that 24/7. Kinda like WWII where volunteers patrolled the shores freeing up paid military to do bigger and better things.

That being said, creating a civilian HLS "Force" that is funded as well as the military sounds like either a play to reduce the military budget and move it to some form of pork barrel pile of cash that could be used to purchase political favors, or worse, a basic misunderstanding of how our national defense infrastructure works. This is not the boy scouts, if we mess it up, people die.

[Smithsonia]

Auxpilot;

Regarding the Congressman who was against the Obama HSD Funding and Organization, the latest lead is this:
               PLEASE READ THIS FOLLOW-UP
Democrats are calling on a Republican congressman from Georgia to apologize for referring to Barack and Michelle Obama as "uppity," but the lawmaker stood by his comments and said he meant no offense.

Speaking to reporters Thursday, Rep. Lynn Westmoreland of Grantville, Ga., described the Obamas as members of an "elitist-class ... that thinks that they're uppity," according to The Hill, a Capitol Hill newspaper.

Asked to clarify whether he intended to use the word, he said, "Yeah, uppity."

MEANING: We shouldn't get caught up and quoting bigots, or at least people that select their words less than carefully. We shouldn't continue to spout the contentions of the political process. AND side with Republican attacks caught up in the animosity of the recent election. We should analyze this discussion from outside the fray. We should judge with a cool eye and even hand. We should ask and find out what needs to be done. How this need can be best served. How we can serve our country best. Although I have no direct quotes... I'll bet you that CAP has been compared to the Gestapo more than once and through our history. Don't take this sucker bait. CAP should stand up and volunteer. If the job sounds like it's a set up for something onerous, tyrannical, or reprehensible then we can address it at that time. At this moment, we've been asked to do nothing but wait. Speculation to the contrary is SPECULATION.

[ol'fido]

I have never been real comfortable with the term "homeland security". To me it sounds like something the bad guys would refer to their country as in old 1940's "B" movies.

We have some of the best law enforcement and security personnel in the world. Let's stick with them and not create another bureaucracy in the federal government. Let's fininsh what we started after 9/11 and reorganize our programs more efficiently, but let's not invent another outfit to run in and try to take charge of every incident. We have enough of those squabbles already.

If we do want something like this, let's put some money and effort into each states National Guard. That's what they are really for.

[Flying Pig]

Personally, I dont see any of this actually happening.

[davidsinn]

Personally, I dont see any of this actually happening.

I bet that's what the average German said in 1933 too. "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance." I'm sure Mr. Obama has nothing but good intentions. But we all know what's paved in good intentions. I for one will remain against this idea purely out of a duty to remember history and learn from it. I try to oppose tyranny in all it's forms.

[Flying Pig]

Im not talking about being ignorant to history.  I mean campaign rhetoric.  Ain't gonna happen.  You cant claim you are going to slash military spending by 25% without making people "feel" like you have an alternative to keep them safe.

[O-Rex]

I remember the "profession of arms" section of SOS, and how it defined the professional military and traced it's history to what we have today.  IMHO, such a course of action, if done on a large scale, is a step backward.

Some would argue that this is a contradiction, coming from a CAP member, but I don't think so: CAP has evolved over two-thirds of a century to stay (somewhat) relevant, and our HLS component has some VERY clearly defined boundaries (at least in my experience.) 

If such programs actually do come to fruition, I foresee them with heavy oversight and checks & balances: we (CAP) have to jump through hoops with Big Brother Blue for something as simple as what we wear, I can't imagine that some civilian mob is going to have free reign and the bucks to support it.

Keep in mind that those charged with Homeland Security (and paid for it) are probably not going to give Mr & Mrs Average American carte blanche to run around with shotguns and pitchforks to poke around their neighbors homes.

[PaulR]

I bet that's what the average German said in 1933 too. "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance." I'm sure Mr. Obama has nothing but good intentions. But we all know what's paved in good intentions. I for one will remain against this idea purely out of a duty to remember history and learn from it. I try to oppose tyranny in all it's forms.

Amen!!  This reminds me of the Gestapo's formation and implementation.  They were formed for the same reasons and the public attitude was, "they never go to that extent...".   

A bit of personal history here... take it for what is it worth. 

Our family WAS well to do until National Socialism took over in 1933.   We even managed to survive the global depression in better shape than most.  As a result of the complacency and lack of leadership of the entire nation, we lost all of our wealth, many family members to the war, and even our honor that had been intact for centuries.    My Great Grandfather was a modestly decorated WW1 veteran and a Col in the Allg. SS in Berlin and my Grandfather was a Capt in the German Army fighting the Russians.  Back then, military service was honorable and something every did in order to do the "right thing".  To make a long story short, everything was desecrated by 12 years of an evil regime.   


We came to the US in the 50s to start over.  My father and I are the first US service members(and non officers) as far back as I can trace.  Now that we are getting our name back, I see what brought us down in 1945 occurring all over again and it personally scares the crap out of me! 

Many people had much much worse experiences than we, but this is not the point.

Flying Pigs rational was the type of mindset the majority of the German people had ALLOWED those things to happen.  Things did not become clear until it was too late...

It is "fun" to watch history repeat itself.  One can almost predict the next step.   

[Auxpilot]

Auxpilot;

Regarding the Congressman who was against the Obama HSD Funding and Organization, the latest lead is this:
               PLEASE READ THIS FOLLOW-UP
Democrats are calling on a Republican congressman from Georgia to apologize for referring to Barack and Michelle Obama as "uppity," but the lawmaker stood by his comments and said he meant no offense.

Speaking to reporters Thursday, Rep. Lynn Westmoreland of Grantville, Ga., described the Obamas as members of an "elitist-class ... that thinks that they're uppity," according to The Hill, a Capitol Hill newspaper.

Asked to clarify whether he intended to use the word, he said, "Yeah, uppity."

MEANING: We shouldn't get caught up and quoting bigots, or at least people that select their words less than carefully. We shouldn't continue to spout the contentions of the political process. AND side with Republican attacks caught up in the animosity of the recent election. We should analyze this discussion from outside the fray. We should judge with a cool eye and even hand. We should ask and find out what needs to be done. How this need can be best served. How we can serve our country best. Although I have no direct quotes... I'll bet you that CAP has been compared to the Gestapo more than once and through our history. Don't take this sucker bait. CAP should stand up and volunteer. If the job sounds like it's a set up for something onerous, tyrannical, or reprehensible then we can address it at that time. At this moment, we've been asked to do nothing but wait. Speculation to the contrary is SPECULATION.

I have no prior knowledge of this Congressman, and have no idea if he is a bigot or not. He may very well be, but we also have to be careful that every time someone disagrees with the new President that their ideas are not dismissed as being grounded in racism. People of all races can be "uppity" as far as I can tell.

After watching President Bush get called just about everything short of the devil by Democrats, something I don't believe any sitting President should be subject to, I suspect the era of political correctness is over, or was it just suspended until a Democrat was back in office?

My post was not to further the cause of bigots but rather to illustrate the can of worms that President Obama's proposal will open.

As far as CAP, you are correct, we should stand up and volunteer, as we have done for the last several decades.

[Pylon]

Watch the political comments, analogies, commentary, etc.  This thread is extremely close to being locked.

Keep all of your comments professional and related to Civil Air Patrol and not politics.

[PaulR]

I agree that this thread should be locked... the mere topic alone is political in nature and no "CAP related" good can come from it at this point. 

[Flying Pig]

Lock?  How is a civilian homeland security force not related to CAP?  Including discussions about the ramifications of it? Some of you are so scared of having an actual conversation where that answer cant be found in the uniform regs.

[Major Carrales]

The idea presented here is not really a political one (unless someone takes it down that path intentionally)

Some talk radio friends of mine we discussing this and my first thought reflected what a debate rival in another forum had said about CAP.  This fellow maintained that he would prefer the USAF to be more like CAP.  That is, he would like to see a domestic USAF that really concetrated on SAR, Cadet Programs and Space.

I would wonder what would happen if the new President actually bolstered the CAP and USCGAux budgets?

[wuzafuzz]

I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of shuffling of departments under a new umbrella organization, similar to the restructuring that largely created the Dept of Homeland Security.  Move people around without spending a lot of new money, then claim tremendous benefit to be realized by said integration and silo busting.

Whether something like that would impact CAP is anyone's guess.  My 2 cents worth is we'd stay connected to the Air Force because no one else would be quite sure what to do with us anyway.  Would we really fit anywhere else and still be CAP? 

[Johnny Yuma]

This Civilian HLS force idea of Obama's is really scary.

ARE THESE NEW RECRUITS???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSvBCBnulLs&feature=related

[MIKE]

And with that...