The "Don't Hurt your feelings police"

[jimmydeanno]

So this doesn't get the "show yourself" thread derailed or locked...

Recently I have been making comments in this thread to the effect that we shouldn't be publicly critcizing the members that decide to show themselves here.  I find it rather disturbing that many members here have no problem criticizing those around us in public.

Many of us work with cadets.  How many of us tell the cadets to praise in public and discipline in private?  I would hope all of us.  To do so otherwise would be unprofessional and contrary to the environment of respect that we are trying to create in our organization.

Some seem to say "grow thicker skin" if you don't like it. Or don't post a picture of yourself if you can't handle the comments - as though these comments are an expected and anticipated/necessary part of posting a picture. 

Do we expect our children to "grow thicker skin" if they are being bullied or made fun of in school or being hazed, or do we teach them to learn how to handle the problem in a responsible and mature manner, like finding a way to stop the actions from occuring.  I'm pretty sure that as parents you would not tolerate an environment in which the expectation was that your family or yourself was going to be made fun of or disrespected.

This forum is a community and a place for professional discussion.  However, I notice that none of the users that have been criticized publicly in that thread have posted since.  I wonder why that is...

The forum has a PM system for a reason.  If you think that a picture is so offensive and disrespectful to "the uniform" then why don't you try PM'ing the "violator" and asking them to find a different picture.  Wouldn't that be the more respectful and responsible way to do this?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you about wishing people would post pictures that were 100% correct.  I also wish that people would be able to put their clothes on correctly.

To me, the way that these uniform discrepancies are being handled is similar to me showing up at the National Conference and singling you out in front of the entire audience, over the microphone and insulting you in front of everyone.  I'm sure you'd be pretty upset.

We talk all day on here about how we need to be professional and present a positive image to those around us, both in and out of the organization.  Yet, when someone is "disrespectful to the uniform" it seems to negate the responsibility as officers to remain respectful and courteous.

I don't like it and I will not participate in the public criticism and mocking of our fellow team members - if you chose to intentionally critcize and humiliate members of our own team, I think that you are the one that is being disrespectful and presenting a negative image of our organization.

Respect is one of our core values. I'm going to choose to live up to it,  YMMV.

[sarflyer]

Good one Jimmy! :clap:

As a long time police officer and member I have found that people have a hard time talking to people when it comes to a complaint.

They're afraid of retaliation.  I wish people could follow the rule you quoted, it would solve a lot of problems.

Remember, were not here to shame people into compliance.  It's about getting their cooperation to follow the rules and join the team!

[jb512]

So this doesn't get the "show yourself" thread derailed or locked...

Recently I have been making comments in this thread to the effect that we shouldn't be publicly critcizing the members that decide to show themselves here.  I find it rather disturbing that many members here have no problem criticizing those around us in public.

Many of us work with cadets.  How many of us tell the cadets to praise in public and discipline in private?  I would hope all of us.  To do so otherwise would be unprofessional and contrary to the environment of respect that we are trying to create in our organization.

Some seem to say "grow thicker skin" if you don't like it. Or don't post a picture of yourself if you can't handle the comments - as though these comments are an expected and anticipated/necessary part of posting a picture. 

That's exactly what a lot of people need to do these days.  Get tough and work out your problems because we shouldn't have to hold your hand.  And yes, if you post your picture in a public forum, then that is part of what to expect especially if you are wearing a uniform.

Do we expect our children to "grow thicker skin" if they are being bullied or made fun of in school or being hazed, or do we teach them to learn how to handle the problem in a responsible and mature manner, like finding a way to stop the actions from occuring.  I'm pretty sure that as parents you would not tolerate an environment in which the expectation was that your family or yourself was going to be made fun of or disrespected.

Yes we do expect them to, or at least I want that for my children.  Part of growing up is learning that life isn't always fair and sometimes you have to figure out ways to solve problems when I'm not around.  If it is a criminal act, then by all means you can ask for help but if someone's just calling you names then you need to learn to deal with that.  If you're being made fun of, you might need to ask yourself a few questions because it may not always be everyone else's environment that needs to change.

This forum is a community and a place for professional discussion.  However, I notice that none of the users that have been criticized publicly in that thread have posted since.  I wonder why that is...

The forum has a PM system for a reason.  If you think that a picture is so offensive and disrespectful to "the uniform" then why don't you try PM'ing the "violator" and asking them to find a different picture.  Wouldn't that be the more respectful and responsible way to do this?

These are common sense things that we are commenting about.  I haven't seen any one of us post anything demeaning, condescending, or otherwise inappropriate.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you about wishing people would post pictures that were 100% correct.  I also wish that people would be able to put their clothes on correctly.

To me, the way that these uniform discrepancies are being handled is similar to me showing up at the National Conference and singling you out in front of the entire audience, over the microphone and insulting you in front of everyone.  I'm sure you'd be pretty upset.

Ehh, it's not that bad.  There are tens of people who read this forum...  

We talk all day on here about how we need to be professional and present a positive image to those around us, both in and out of the organization.  Yet, when someone is "disrespectful to the uniform" it seems to negate the responsibility as officers to remain respectful and courteous.

Pointing out that someone needs to shave, or wear an undershirt is not disrespectful, nor is it discourteous.

I don't like it and I will not participate in the public criticism and mocking of our fellow team members - if you chose to intentionally critcize and humiliate members of our own team, I think that you are the one that is being disrespectful and presenting a negative image of our organization.

Your opinion, but again I haven't seen any of that.  I've posted pictures of myself in here before and I'm open to anything anyone says about them and I promise I won't get my feelings hurt.  

Respect is one of our core values. I'm going to choose to live up to it,  YMMV.

We should not only exhibit respect ourselves, but also demand it of others.  If you choose to show disrespect then we really can't help ya if you get called out on it.

Our catch phrase at work has always been "common sense and good judgement".  You can apply that to everything, and if you think something ain't right, then it probably isn't.  If you want to wear a uniform, then you better make sure you're doing it right before you leave the house, not only for your own image but for mine and for those who have worn it before you.

[IceNine]

The sky is blue... NO IT's NOT is fucia.

Does all of what you said help you sleep at night?  I hope you are just spewing and not living like that because what you just portrayed is neither officership nor acting as a gentlemen.  And that is the kind of person that spoils the waters for this program.

[jb512]

The sky is blue... NO IT's NOT is fucia.

Does all of what you said help you sleep at night?  I hope you are just spewing and not living like that because what you just portrayed is neither officership nor acting as a gentlemen.  And that is the kind of person that spoils the waters for this program.

I think my post might've slipped in before yours.

There are three of us above you, who are you directed at?

[IceNine]

^You.

[jb512]

^You.

I'm hard and crusty on the outside, but chewy on the inside.

And yes, the sky is blue.

[jimmydeanno]

It would seem to me that if something by your own admission is intentionally hurtful to others, then your saying above, "common sense and good judgement" is not being applied.

An Officer and a Gentlemen is one who applies common decency and respect to all regardless of the situation, let us not forget that in our dealings with others.

Let us lead by example.

[jb512]

It would seem to me that if something by your own admission is intentionally hurtful to others, then your saying above, "common sense and good judgement" is not being applied.

An Officer and a Gentlemen is one who applies common decency and respect to all regardless of the situation, let us not forget that in our dealings with others.

Let us lead by example.

No one is intending to hurt.  All we were asking for was a shave.

[jimmydeanno]

I'm not trying to single out a specific comment or poster, just stop a general trend I've noticed.

As we all know, comments can mean different things to different people.  By your own admission, you could care less about comments people make about you, however, that doesn't mean that we should make them publicly.

We've seen here that often times things are taken out of context, people get into arguments that were intended because something was mis-interpreted.

All I'm saying is that criticism like creating a "motivational poster" featuring someone's uniform discrepancy is probably going to offend or come across entirely wrong, intentionally or not. 

I don't think that the expectation should be that people get "thicker skin." I think the expectation should be that the comments aren't made publicly in the first place.

[jb512]

I'm not trying to single out a specific comment or poster, just stop a general trend I've noticed.

And I'm not usually in the minority when it comes to most things so I'm trying to find a middle ground in this discussion.

As we all know, comments can mean different things to different people.  By your own admission, you could care less about comments people make about you, however, that doesn't mean that we should make them publicly.

Maybe that comes from life experience.  I'm secure in myself and my appearance and to me wearing a uniform properly isn't difficult.

We've seen here that often times things are taken out of context, people get into arguments that were intended because something was mis-interpreted.

All I'm saying is that criticism like creating a "motivational poster" featuring someone's uniform discrepancy is probably going to offend or come across entirely wrong, intentionally or not. 

I don't think that the expectation should be that people get "thicker skin." I think the expectation should be that the comments aren't made publicly in the first place.

I think it could take a bit of both.  People shouldn't be that naive and should be able to take corrective criticism.  If you're making fun of a defect that someone has no control over, then I completely agree with you.  On the other hand, if I post a picture of myself with my fly undone and everyone jumps on the bandwagon to jack with me, then I'll laugh at myself and know that I'm loved.   

And I know you'll hate me, but grinned slightly at the motivational poster.  It was just.... well...

[Major Carrales]

I used to recommend CADETSTUFF and CAPTALK to new cadets as places to get information.  I had to stop that when a parent approached me and commented that their child...a cadet...was basically "dogpiled."

I then ran a series of "test" posts at both (one of which some of you may remember) and the results were extremely vitriolic.

I no longer recommend the forums to cadets.  CAP Officers are another matter.

I think many here lose sight of the fact that people come here for information and to some degree to belong.  There are many here, for what ever reason, that have appointed themselves some sort of DEFENDER of the FAITH.  There are also, as was pointed out to me, certain "cliques" of which it is hard to negotiate if one encounters a problem with fellow cohorts.  Thus, the dogpiles.

Totally disingenuous and not germane to the facts at hand.  It is done out of spite more than of discourse.  That's what burns me up.

And not just that issue, but when new people come on or someone asking for remedy to some issue (like the original posts of Civilian_Pilot, if memory serves he originally got online here to address an issue with an ascerbic IC...it went all down hill from there) they are met with snobbish attitude about search engines and anything but a seasoned response.

The "Funny Uniform" threads are the worst, followed by attacks related to our last major scandal and then newbie questions that people deem to "basic" to answer.

I've learned that the above methods provide no positive recourse.  I've also had to redact my posts when I have...after even just a few minutes of thought...made an attack or other comment that is best left to PM, or not said at all.

Now, let's see who proves my point...Myron, the tick tock polka please...

[jimmydeanno]

I think it could take a bit of both.  People shouldn't be that naive and should be able to take corrective criticism.

Shouldn't the criticism be constructive and appropriate?  If the desired result is to correct a certain behavior, then perhaps trying to teach someone first would be a better approach, no?

I've PM'd people about uniform related stuff here and was met by constructive and positive responses.  Even a good laugh in between.

[stratoflyer]

I had this whole thing written up but decided that you guys would slug it out on your own anyway.

I came to this forum seeking knowledge and sharing ideas. Since it's an internet thing, I KNEW FULL WELL what an internet community can be sometimes, and so far, I've been right. Bottom line, I was prepared.

[AvroArrow]

I had this whole thing written up but decided that you guys would slug it out on your own anyway.

I came to this forum seeking knowledge and sharing ideas. Since it's an internet thing, I KNEW FULL WELL what an internet community can be sometimes, and so far, I've been right. Bottom line, I was prepared.

Same thing with me   

I used to recommend CADETSTUFF and CAPTALK to new cadets as places to get information.  I had to stop that when a parent approached me and commented that their child...a cadet...was basically "dogpiled."

I then ran a series of "test" posts at both (one of which some of you may remember) and the results were extremely vitriolic.

I no longer recommend the forums to cadets.  CAP Officers are another matter.

I think many here lose sight of the fact that people come here for information and to some degree to belong.  There are many here, for what ever reason, that have appointed themselves some sort of DEFENDER of the FAITH.  There are also, as was pointed out to me, certain "cliques" of which it is hard to negotiate if one encounters a problem with fellow cohorts.  Thus, the dogpiles.

Totally disingenuous and not germane to the facts at hand.  It is done out of spite more than of discourse.  That's what burns me up.

And not just that issue, but when new people come on or someone asking for remedy to some issue (like the original posts of Civilian_Pilot, if memory serves he originally got online here to address an issue with an ascerbic IC...it went all down hill from there[/u]) they are met with snobbish attitude about search engines and anything but a seasoned response.

The "Funny Uniform" threads are the worst, followed by attacks related to our last major scandal and then newbie questions that people deem to "basic" to answer.

I've learned that the above methods provide no positive recourse.  I've also had to redact my posts when I have...after even just a few minutes of thought...made an attack or other comment that is best left to PM, or not said at all.

Now, let's see who proves my point...Myron, the tick tock polka please...

I can  prove your point.

Call me unresourceful and lazy, (which I admit that I am a lot of times, especially when using the internet) but some of the topics that I've started and/or responded to got some real overreacted responses. I asked a question about shoulder cords, and got called off by not using the terminology "Class A and B" instead of "Service (Dress) Uniform..." and I ahve some pretty rude PMs to prove it    Also, I've learned to just busily read through the 39-1 despite its length to avoid some social rejection and (in my mind, immature) name-callings/making fun of from CAPTalk.

Once more, call me "thin skinned," but, and maybe it's just me, CAP members, both Cadet and Senior alike, should be stern and straight-foward with lazy people such as myself rather than rude and malevolent.

Avro   

[MIKE]

I asked a question about shoulder cords, and got called off by not using the terminology "Class A and B" instead of "Service (Dress) Uniform..." and I ahve some pretty rude PMs to prove it   

If you don't report PMs, we can't do anything about 'em... and if you use Report To Admin I can't help you.

[Stonewall]

I think people are too soft, sensitive and overly worried about hurting peoples' feelings.

People are saying "I wouldn't recommend cadets visit CadetStuff or CAP Talk because I wouldn't want them seeing what goes on here...".  Well, in my 20 years of experience in CAP, all of which has been working with cadets, I've been able to do what's right when it's right.  I don't speak to a 13 year old cadet the same way I speak to a 17 year old cadet.  And I don't speak to a CAP Captain or Major the same way I speak to a brand new senior member with 6 months in the program.  It's called weighing the situation and maintaining a good balance.

The problem comes when some people, usually the senior members with several years in, that never got told how it is.  They've been coddled and treated like a child and no one ever told them DO IT THIS WAY AND LIKE IT.  Hurt your feelings?  Oh well, man up and be a....no, not a Ranger...just be a man...a grown up. 

If you're a grown man, 22 or 52, and post a picture of yourself in a CAP uniform with more than a 5 'o clock shadow, then yeah, I'm going to call you out on it.  I bet that you will take it to heart, maybe even be a little mad at me...maybe mad at yourself, but you'll understand that you don't put that uniform on without shaving first.  Or, I could PM you and say "I'm sorry young man, but you really should shave when in uniform...you may set a bad example for others...".  Yeah, that'll leave a lasting impression.

Come on people, be adults.  Yes, I'm talking to the senior members, not the cadets.  But still, the cadets should strive to act like adults to an extent.  Stop coddling each other and singing Cum-bay-ah around the camp fire.

[Major Carrales]

Come on people, be adults.  Yes, I'm talking to the senior members, not the cadets.  But still, the cadets should strive to act like adults to an extent.  Stop coddling each other and singing Cum-bay-ah around the camp fire.

I have to disagree, the more honorable (and encouraged) thing for a CAP OFFICER adult would use PM and instruct with understanding.  Then, if the situation was not remedied, move to other action.  The action would then be to contact the offending CAP Officer's unit commander for correction.  I have had that happen to people under my command...the situation was rememdied and...if not, the Squadron Commander's actions would have to involve a refusal to comply with policy.  That could be, appearently, a 2B offense (willfull refusal to follow CAP policy inspite of constant and repeated corrections)

We don't have to go "all hippy" on it, but we can first appeal to the reason of a CAP Officer wishing to be insturcted or otherwise "ignorant" of a CAP Policy.  And then use the established system to solve the matter.

I submit wishing to humiliate a fellow CAP member is more for the purpose of ridicule, than any corrective action.

[jb512]

I think it could take a bit of both.  People shouldn't be that naive and should be able to take corrective criticism.

Shouldn't the criticism be constructive and appropriate?  If the desired result is to correct a certain behavior, then perhaps trying to teach someone first would be a better approach, no?

Certainly, but that's not our job here in the forum.  If a person is a 2nd Lt, you'd think they would've been taught how to wear the uniform by their chain of command over the time it took them to get there.  Yes, I know, that's a stretch...

[B.Kahuna]

Okay-I am a cadet, and I must say I am appalled by this thread. In our own leadership text it says to correct people privately when possible. If you won't do this out of decency, do it to follow your own organization's guidelines.


Senior Members, I mean this with the highest respect. I apologize in advance if you take offense to my comments.

[jb512]

I no longer recommend the forums to cadets.  CAP Officers are another matter.

Yeah, I would not necessarily direct a cadet to this forum unless there was a specific area made for cadets.  The older crowd and cadet officers would relate much better here.  Cadetstuff is much more appropriate.

I think many here lose sight of the fact that people come here for information and to some degree to belong.  There are many here, for what ever reason, that have appointed themselves some sort of DEFENDER of the FAITH.  There are also, as was pointed out to me, certain "cliques" of which it is hard to negotiate if one encounters a problem with fellow cohorts.  Thus, the dogpiles.

That's just human nature.  You can't barge into any group and expect to be one of the guys right off the bat.  When you join any new group of friends you have to work your way in and let people get to know you before you are accepted.  That is not just here, that's everywhere in life.

[JoeTomasone]

The base problem here is "Internet Forum" standards of behavior overriding "CAP Member" standards of behavior.   

I don't think it's intentional - it just is.

I'll be the first to admit that uniform discrepancies bother me.    I do my best each and every time I put on my uniform to have it 100% correct - or as correct as possible under whatever circumstances.   I do this not just to honor the uniform, but because the regulations require it and the oath I took commit me to it. 

So yes, it really bothers me to see people who ignore 39-1 or say they can't read it because it's "too big".    So yeah, I feel a strong urge to take these people to task. 

However, those who say we should correct in private are correct.   I just wish it would work, however we do it.


The two most ignored CAP publications:  CAPM 39-1 and CAPP 151.

[hatentx]

I know in the RM you show up jacked up you are going to hear it.  In CAP I am not going to call out a cadet or SM the same way I am going to one of my PVTs.  I do agree that the ''motovation poster'' may have been much but a simple comment like next time shave isn't that bad.  If you are going to show up to National with a jacked up uniform maybe you should be called out.  Same here if you are going to post a picture and you are not going to be corrected would be a failure by everyone else.  Yes could a PM work yes but if you don't make a fix to an infraction know then people can assume that is the standard.  I will call my troops out of formation or a job correct the uniform or infraction where people know I am looking and upholdong the standards.
As for the post about uniform question I have had a ton.  Just look up my post, and I haven't had one answered unprofessionaly.  I have had people point me to regs and such to encourage me to find the info on my own, which is what a real officer should do before posting a picture of oneself.
Me along with others  are goofy looking and nothing is said about that but what has been addressed is the uniform not the person.

[SarDragon]

Well, let me tell you something - PMs don't help a lot of the time, either. I have sent PMs to various posters about various issues, and the replies have gone from thankful to downright nasty.

Many of the differences we have on CS and CT are based on the priorities of the posters - what's important to each person. For me, on these forums (fora), writing skills are right up there. For many others, that gets a MEGO (My Eyes Glaze Over) reaction. For others uniforms are the hot button, but most of the time, the horse gets pulverized in short order. Then there are the ES wars - another pulverized horse.

The bottom line here is that we frequently need to agree to disagree. You're not going to change my opinion on certain issues, nor am I going to change yours on others. We should be able to present our points of view and receive civil responses. We should be able to address topics with candor, and not get a dogpile in return. Basically - "Lighten up, Francis."

[ol'fido]

Quit worrying about people who post a picture on the forum. Jeez, most of them probably threw something on on and grabbed a digital camera. If you see something at an activity, say something discreetly without being snobbish or smartalecky and then go on. We got work to do, people! Make sure your uniform is correct before you do this and make sure you are telling something that is actually in 39-1. Starching you BDU cap. Are you serious. Gimme a break. The cadet is right.  Put this stuff in perspective and get over it. I was an infantryman in the Desert Storm era and many is the time I came back from the field without having shaved for a day or so, with cammie paint all over my mug, wearing torn, ripped and filthy BDUs and gone over to the shopette for pogey bait and sodas. It was understood that you would not be parade ground polished all the time because we were working!So, stop the snarkey comments every time somebody posts a picture! For the love of mike!

[Stonewall]

I do agree that the ''motovation poster'' may have been much...

Wait...this started because of the motivational poster I threw out there?  Gimmie a break!  I've known that dude longer than a lot of you have been in CAP.  Get over it...he did.

It's kind of like a couple of buddies messin' with each other....gawd, you guys are....

If you have an issue, I have a tissue...

[jb512]

I do agree that the ''motovation poster'' may have been much...

Wait...this started because of the motivational poster I threw out there?  Gimmie a break!  I've known that dude longer than a lot of you have been in CAP.  Get over it...he did.

It's kind of like a couple of buddies messin' with each other....gawd, you guys are....

If you have an issue, I have a tissue...

You know what's sad is that we can't jack with each other here and laugh about it together.  Take the RM, the cop world, firefighers, EMTs, etc.... we all make fun of each other, play jokes on each other, and eventually everyone becomes the brunt of some joke at one time or another.  That builds camaraderie and the only ones who are worried about fitting in are the ones who never end up getting picked on.  I know I have been, and all of the guys on my shift have been at one time or another (some more than others).  If we talk s#$%#%@t about you, then you know you're loved.

If I post a picture on here and someone picks it apart, then I'll reply again and make a joke about it, maybe post an even worse picture, and make it fun.  It's all about being part of a team as weird as it may sound.

At our last choir practice we talked our new K9 handler into wearing his K9 shirt, some UDT shorts and his Navy cranial helmet.  He hauled ass as soon as the camera phones started coming out of pockets...  It's one of those "you had to be there" things, but it was funny...

[Stonewall]

Want to see how the Real Air Force acts on forums?  Go to www.afforums.com.

Post.  Go ahead.  Tell'em Stonewall sent you....

[jb512]

Want to see how the Real Air Force acts on forums?  Go to www.afforums.com.

Post.  Go ahead.  Tell'em Stonewall sent you....

And I haven't earned the right to post in many places there other than the DEPer area, but in a few months I'll be right there in the middle. 

[jb512]

Okay-I am a cadet, and I must say I am appalled by this thread. In our own leadership text it says to correct people privately when possible. If you won't do this out of decency, do it to follow your own organization's guidelines.


Senior Members, I mean this with the highest respect. I apologize in advance if you take offense to my comments.

No offense taken whatsoever, cadet.  I, and many of us in this discussion were once cadets too.  There is no need to be appalled, this is what happens when you get old and crusty; you develop opinions.  They're like... everybody has one... nevermind.

Rather than be taken aback by people speaking their mind, I'd concentrate on forming your own views on subjects and interjecting where you feel comfortable.  It's just a normal process of being old like us.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Hey folks!!

Ok so my "shave" comment wrinkled a few brows....  Get over it.

Let me share with you why I post little things like that.

I served in the Army. 4 Years.  Advanced Communications attached to a MP unit.

If I even thought of walking past my CO without saluting, there were ramifications.  A uniform violation? Unthinkable.

Your uniform is a direct relationship on how you live your life.  Attention to details is key. 

If you choose to let one little thing go by the wayside, and get away with it, then next time you will try harder to get away with more.

Shine your boots, iron your uniform.  Look like you give a crap, because in that uniform you don't just represent yourself.  You represent me and everyone that is a fellow member of CAP.

[SJFedor]

Okay-I am a cadet, and I must say I am appalled by this thread. In our own leadership text it says to correct people privately when possible. If you won't do this out of decency, do it to follow your own organization's guidelines.


Senior Members, I mean this with the highest respect. I apologize in advance if you take offense to my comments.

No offense taken whatsoever, cadet.  I, and many of us in this discussion were once cadets too.  There is no need to be appalled, this is what happens when you get old and crusty; you develop opinions.  They're like... everybody has one... nevermind.

Rather than be taken aback by people speaking their mind, I'd concentrate on forming your own views on subjects and interjecting where you feel comfortable.  It's just a normal process of being old like us.

I dunno, I think the cadet really has a point there.

By all means, those of us on the board that know each other, we do take shots at one another in the name of humor and fun. While this can look bad/mean to those outside the group, we should make efforts to make it blatently obvious that it is, in fact, in jest.

However, and we've ALL seen it before, when someone harshly calls someone out, and i'm not just talking about "hey, i think you might have some of the things in the wrong order. 39-1 says that CAP pilot's wings go above those ribbons, not below", but the "dude, you look like trash, you're a crappy human being, you should go home, burn your "uniforms" and ID card, and be gone" type remarks, which unfortunately do happen, really need to not. At least, they need to not happen in public view.  There's standards of conduct here, and not just because of what rules the Admins and Mods have set, but the fact that this is an open forum representing CAP, comprised of CAP members (and some lurkers), and when those comments get made, it A) makes the person saying them look like a horse's six, and B) makes us all look like a bunch of tools.

But YMMV. This is just my opinion at 3am. 

[jb512]

Hey folks!!

Ok so my "shave" comment wrinkled a few brows....  Get over it.

What's funny is that you said it, but I got beat down for backing you up.  Next time it's your turn to take one for the team. 

Okay-I am a cadet, and I must say I am appalled by this thread. In our own leadership text it says to correct people privately when possible. If you won't do this out of decency, do it to follow your own organization's guidelines.


Senior Members, I mean this with the highest respect. I apologize in advance if you take offense to my comments.

No offense taken whatsoever, cadet.  I, and many of us in this discussion were once cadets too.  There is no need to be appalled, this is what happens when you get old and crusty; you develop opinions.  They're like... everybody has one... nevermind.

Rather than be taken aback by people speaking their mind, I'd concentrate on forming your own views on subjects and interjecting where you feel comfortable.  It's just a normal process of being old like us.

I dunno, I think the cadet really has a point there.

By all means, those of us on the board that know each other, we do take shots at one another in the name of humor and fun. While this can look bad/mean to those outside the group, we should make efforts to make it blatently obvious that it is, in fact, in jest.

However, and we've ALL seen it before, when someone harshly calls someone out, and i'm not just talking about "hey, i think you might have some of the things in the wrong order. 39-1 says that CAP pilot's wings go above those ribbons, not below", but the "dude, you look like trash, you're a crappy human being, you should go home, burn your "uniforms" and ID card, and be gone" type remarks, which unfortunately do happen, really need to not. At least, they need to not happen in public view.  There's standards of conduct here, and not just because of what rules the Admins and Mods have set, but the fact that this is an open forum representing CAP, comprised of CAP members (and some lurkers), and when those comments get made, it A) makes the person saying them look like a horse's six, and B) makes us all look like a bunch of tools.

But YMMV. This is just my opinion at 3am. 

Nobody called anyone a crappy human.  Someone just asked for the decency of a shave before they put a uniform on.  People just need to relax.

[Hill CAP]

I do agree that the ''motovation poster'' may have been much...

Wait...this started because of the motivational poster I threw out there?  Gimmie a break!  I've known that dude longer than a lot of you have been in CAP.  Get over it...he did.

It's kind of like a couple of buddies messin' with each other....gawd, you guys are....

If you have an issue, I have a tissue...

If its the same poster that I am thinking of its of me in the TPU without a white V-Neck T-Shirt.  Yea I took it personally for all of about 2 minutes long enough to realize that Stonewall was joking around.

And that I needed to go buy some new V-Necks which I did problem fixed and no one got hurt.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Hey folks!!

Ok so my "shave" comment wrinkled a few brows....  Get over it.

What's funny is that you said it, but I got beat down for backing you up.  Next time it's your turn to take one for the team. 

Open for team taking.....

[jeders]

Call me unresourceful and lazy, (which I admit that I am a lot of times, especially when using the internet) but some of the topics that I've started and/or responded to got some real overreacted responses. I asked a question about shoulder cords, and got called off by not using the terminology "Class A and B" instead of "Service (Dress) Uniform..." and I ahve some pretty rude PMs to prove it    Also, I've learned to just busily read through the 39-1 despite its length to avoid some social rejection and (in my mind, immature) name-callings/making fun of from CAPTalk.

This is one of the best posts I've seen. This is exactly why some of us on here and CS react with the seemingly cruel responses. Because everyone needs to know that there are actual publications out there that tell you how to do things. Don't just take our word for things, go look it up so that 1.) you know the answer, 2.) you know where to find the answer, and 3.) you know where to point others to find the answer.

Once more, call me "thin skinned," but, and maybe it's just me, CAP members, both Cadet and Senior alike, should be stern and straight-foward with lazy people such as myself rather than rude and malevolent.

Avro   

One man's stern and straight-forward is another man's rude and malevolent.

Now, should we maybe use a little more tact at times, such as going to PM or such, maybe. But mostly, people in CAP need to just grow thicker skin. Which leads me to my next question for cadets, if you can't handle being told to look something up instead of being given an answer, then how are you surviving high school?

[Major Carrales]

This is one of the best posts I've seen. This is exactly why some of us on here and CS react with the seemingly cruel responses. Because everyone needs to know that there are actual publications out there that tell you how to do things. Don't just take our word for things, go look it up so that 1.) you know the answer, 2.) you know where to find the answer, and 3.) you know where to point others to find the answer.

I must disagree.  We are obligated to guide the new CAP Officers and Cadets.  There are some of us located in isolated places and that do not have the experience necessary (and many times local experienced personnel to guide them) to simply "look it up."  Sending people blindly to the regs and pubs is inviting misinterpretations.

Thus, be helpful and answer the questions...be a guide...or, if not, people need to shut the "collective pieholes" when those people misinterpret and go and do something that the simple answer would have prevented.

If you are all here to fight ignorance in CAP, then do your job and answer their questions.  If not, you risk being part of the problems that sparked this thread.   CAP Regs, after all, are full of inconstancies and are not clear.  That is why people are asking the questions to begin with.

[B.Kahuna]

I don't think a lot of you realize that your tone can be misinterpreted on the internet. For example, while Stonewall may have not meant any harm by his motivational poster, to somebody skimming through the forums, it looks like dogpiling.

[davedove]

This is one of the best posts I've seen. This is exactly why some of us on here and CS react with the seemingly cruel responses. Because everyone needs to know that there are actual publications out there that tell you how to do things. Don't just take our word for things, go look it up so that 1.) you know the answer, 2.) you know where to find the answer, and 3.) you know where to point others to find the answer.

I must disagree.  We are obligated to guide the new CAP Officers and Cadets.  There are some of us located in isolated places and that do not have the experience necessary (and many times local experienced personnel to guide them) to simply "look it up."  Sending people blindly to the regs and pubs is inviting misinterpretations.

Thus, be helpful and answer the questions...be a guide...or, if not, people need to shut the "collective pieholes" when those people misinterpret and go and do something that the simple answer would have prevented.

If you are all here to fight ignorance in CAP, then do your job and answer their questions.  If not, you risk being part of the problems that sparked this thread.   CAP Regs, after all, are full of inconstancies and are not clear.  That is why people are asking the questions to begin with.

I have to agree with the good Major here.  It's fine and dandy to say "check the regs" but for a lot of new CAP members, they have no idea where to look.

Gently guide those seeking advice.  Let them know the appropriate reg, then explain what it says.

[heliodoc]

Squadrons used to have 3 ring binders for ALLLLLLL those regs in the past

Not everyone has access to a computer or laptop and YES to all those CAP members that have said "go look it up"   Guess we'll all be carrying laptops including those cadets who may or may not have one

Pretty soon at Sqdn meetings... " everyone open up your laptops, we are going to interpret 39-1 for tonites meeting"

And YES  once and for all get that lousy 39-1 UPDATED with all the current ICL's Next thing you know we'll have an ICL on the wear of a mock turtle neck and how to wear that

Isn't there one of those in the inventory, yet???

[jeders]

I have to agree with the good Major here.  It's fine and dandy to say "check the regs" but for a lot of new CAP members, they have no idea where to look.

Gently guide those seeking advice.  Let them know the appropriate reg, then explain what it says.

Let me clarify my earlier statement. I have no problem helping someone find the answer or clarify interpretations, as long as they at least look at the reg. I also have no problem saying, "look at CAPX AB-C which can be found at such and such location." I am not, however, going to just give them the answer.

What a lot of people dogpile on, and yes they do dogpile, and starts people getting their feelings hurt is when somone comes in without even trying to find the answer on their own, without even thinking about looking at the regs, and expects us to just give them the answer to a simple question.

With regards to other things, like a motivational poster or being told to shave, if it's not directed at you and you think it's mean, then don't partake. If it is directed at you and you think it's mean, learn to realize that 9 times out of 10 we aren't meaning to be mean. We either want to make a point with a little humor, or get someone to take a little more pride in themselves and their uniform.

As my mother is so fond of saying, cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.

[Eclipse]

Not everyone has access to a computer or laptop and YES to all those CAP members that have said "go look it up"   Guess we'll all be carrying laptops including those cadets who may or may not have one

That mantra is getting really old.  That's basically a "dog ate my homework" excuse.

The reality is that finding CAP members who don't have access to a computer is increasingly difficult, unless you don't work, go to school, know where a library is, or attend squadron meetings. This is the universe in which we live.

There is also the fact that most mainstream  game consoles can access the tubes as well.

While a notebook computer may not be a part of your universe, its a part of it for about 3/4's of the CAP members I know, including cadets, and an increasingly large number of members can access & read CAP regs on their cell phones.

(and a few are reading this that way right now.)

[Sleepwalker]

   This is a great disscussion! 

   Being relatively new to CAP, I read many more threads than I post on.  After a while it becomes obvious who is really trying to help (the vast majority of those on here) and those who are just being plain "mean" (only a few, who do nothing to add to the discussions or find solutions). 
  I have been 'spanked' for posting my views a few times, but in no way have I ever felt as if someone were 'attacking' me (but I have seen that happen to others).  When someone respectfully disagreed with my take, they would state their reasons profesionally and respectfully - as it should be. 
   I think this wesite is very healthy, having so many people that are so passionate about their CAP world.  If no one gave a flip, then there would be no CAP Talk (or CAP for that matter).  I think we all just need to be careful not to respond to a  professional disagreement with a personal attack.

     

[Major Carrales]

Let me clarify my earlier statement. I have no problem helping someone find the answer or clarify interpretations, as long as they at least look at the reg. I also have no problem saying, "look at CAPX AB-C which can be found at such and such location." I am not, however, going to just give them the answer.

A friend of mine standing next to me took a look at my computer and said to this...and I quote "Whoa... a real 'holier than thou' arguement on a CAP forum.  Wow!!!  And you wonder why I haven't got my fingerprint cards filled out."

You all don't realize how damaging some posts here are to CAP Public Affairs and recruiting.

Now my part...

Why aren't you going to give them the answer?  Does it hurt you to help a new fellow?

Plus, as I have come to note here...there are 1) numerous letters and policy changes that are not in any reg, 2) there are unwritten and uncodified "rules" that people here seem to hold in high regard, 3) there are USAF and other service conventions that "try as one might" will never be found in CAP publications.  4) Regional and Wing differences, 5) Local conventions and a host of other things that the attitiude of "look it up yourself" just won't answer and 6) search engines don't help people who have no "frame of reference" to the subject they are searching for.

Also, and have been needing to say this...this may be the proper time or not...

As CAP, we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard and public stance.  Some pointed out that the USAF forums are worse.  The USAF does not have to justify itself as CAP does.  Because of our dual nature and auxiliary status, we have to look professional at all times.  USAF folks can simply be granted that by wearing the uniform, the grey shouldermarks of CAP require that we work together at ALL TIMES.  When we don't we are all marked as posers and pretenders, that really mustn't be allowed.

When a problem is identified, it should be dealt with swiftly and with honor and respect.  Not with the sort of negative style of education, but with the idea that we are here to HELP and IMPROVE.

Do you know what happens in a classroom when the tactics y'all have been employing to "teach a lesson" through embarrasment is done?  Students shut down, they experience "true" (not the artificial type) low self-esteem and morale.  They shut down and lose respect for the teacher.  It leads to more problems.  Plus, the rest come to view the teacher as an "unreasonable blowhard" and general "Captain Harris," of Police Academy fame.   The quality of the group lessens.

However, when a person is approached face to face in private and the matter is talked out, the student sees the teacher as "reasonable" and many times (in almost all cases where it has happened to me) tge student improves because there is a true relationship between the two.

That is the crux of leadership in CAP...where subordiantes respect fellow CAP Officers and assist them into becoming better CAP Officers as fellows; so people will want to and look forward to accomplishing the missions...not live in fear of bullying ridicule and dogpiles.

[hatentx]

reading on a phone like normal....autoword is a pian in the butt on here lol.

[jeders]

Sparky, if I may,

I tihnk that the disagreement here may come more from individual attitudes towards life in general, than CAP. I was always taught that it is better to be as self-sufficient as possible and to do things for yourself than to rely on someone else to do things for you. I try to live this life lesson in everything I do, including CAP. Furthermore, I try to teach this lesson to others. When I tell someone to look something up for themselves, it's not because I don't care about them or I'm being mean, it's because I'm trying to help someone be self-sufficient in this organization.

Also, it's not like I or others here just say look it up and then leave. In reality I tell someone what reg to find an answer in and where to find that reg, and if I can remember off the top of my head I give them a rough page cite. But I'm still not going to just give them an answer that they take as truth because then they don't learn how to find real answers. In other words, if I just gave someone the answer without challenging them to find it themselves, how am I being any better of an officer than someone who tells everyone that you're supposed to wear metal grade on your BDUs and you don't have to salute.

In life today, too many people take what they hear and see for granted. They expect to ask a question and then get a clear and concise answer. Then, when something the experience later contradicts that answer, they have no way of supporting that there answer is right. They simply continue doing what they've always done for no other reason than that's what someone told them once, and they took it as gospel. I would rather have a squadron full of people who think of me as a hardass and know where and how to find answers, than one full of people who love and adore me, but don't have a clue about where to find the requirements for wearing a SAR ribbon, or how to process awards.

Just my opinion on life, YMMV.

[jeders]

Also, in my opinion, some people deserve to be dogpiled on when they do something really dumb. In real life, anytime I do something stupid, I fully expect the insults to start flying, usually because I'm making some myself aimed at myself. If you can't laugh at yourself, then please go somewhere else and stop killing the funny. A world without humor and laughter, even when it's directed at a single person for doing something dumb, is a world I want to send into a black hole. And if the people at CERN get it wrong, that may happen sooner than you think.

[Major Carrales]

Jedders,

Thank you for the insight.  I respect your position and grant you a few of the points. In CAP I expect people to have that approach, to become self-sufficient and be responsible.  However, it is precarious to ask new people here to do that.  No more would I do that that I would place a 15 year old in the cab of a locomotive and have them "read the manual" to drive a section on the line.  Or a 21 year old in a cockpit with only a information page, manual and a few FAA guidebooks and the instructions to fly.  Yes, the information is there, by they must be guided.

   I have existed before in CAP where I was told "its all in the regs" and then, upon following the regs to the letter, was chastised for "not doing it according to 'established practices.'"

When I as a question here, it is likely because I have 1) red the Regulation or other guidance, 2) exhausted all local people to ask and 3) still have a question.  I suspect that everyone who comes here does so for information gatherting purposes.

There are policies and practices far beyond the "regs" in CAP.  Some people also come here and ask "basic" questions for the purpose of learning the "spirit" of them, and how to best implement the "letter" of them.

Listen, this is the largest collection of CAP data I can think of.  It is also the most "living" one.  Sometimes, if I have limited time or am away from my resources and need a quick question answered or have some point I am making validated I might post it here.

The resulting replies should provide an answer to the issue...not attitide.

Yes, we want self-reliant people who can stand on their own, but every child that learns to walk first crawls and then is guided into walking.  It is unfair to have newbies wander blindly, when they seek to see thing as they are done in practice.  Again, with no frame of reference, a REGULATION or other publication is not helpful.

That is why we are all here.

Major Carrales

[arajca]

It's one thing for a new member of someone out of pocket to ask for a reference. It's quite another for a cadet NCO, officer, or senior officer who is too lazy to look things up. I have seen a few cadets actually post that they're being lazy when they've asked for an answer.

The problem with "established practices" questions is they vary greatly. WHat's and established practice on one unit is a foriegn concept in another.

[PHall]

A friend of mine standing next to me took a look at my computer and said to this...and I quote "Whoa... a real 'holier than thou' arguement on a CAP forum.  Wow!!!  And you wonder why I haven't got my fingerprint cards filled out."

I'm not so sure that person would have joined anyway.  Sounded pretty much like an convenient excuse to me.

[SarDragon]

When I see someone ask a Q, I look at their "newness" to the organization. If a member less than six months, I will usually answer the Q directly, and also provide a link to additional information. After that, the poster just gets a link.

If there are "interpretations" or uncertainties to be discussed, then bring 'em on. It all goes back to the fishing lesson homily - give someone a fish and he eats for a day; teach him how to fish, and he eats for a lifetime.

As mentioned elsewhere and elsewhen, WIWAC we rarely saw a paper regulation or manual outside of our cadet study materials. All of the institutional knowledge came from the SMs. Today, information is so much more readily available that there is no reason for someone not to have a complete set of regs on their home computer.

And I don't want to hear the excuse about some folks not having computers. If someone posts here, computer access is implied.

YMMV.

[flyerthom]

Now, let's see who proves my point...Myron, the tick tock polka please...

couldn't pass this one up 

In all due seriousness - one thing we should all consider is how would we feel being on the receiving  end of the comment we are about to post.

Yes many of us have been in the fire service, PD or EMS and we fry each other on a routine basis. But to Mr. Smith the accountant or the guy in I T that is utterly horrifying. Major C is on track - just take a second and think (and reread your post) about what's going out there.

The one uncountable statistic is how many potential member lurkers walk away from CAP after reading snark here?

[stratoflyer]

 

[Major Carrales]

A friend of mine standing next to me took a look at my computer and said to this...and I quote "Whoa... a real 'holier than thou' argument on a CAP forum. wow!!! and you wonder why I haven't got my fingerprint cards filled out."

I'm not so sure that person would have joined anyway.  Sounded pretty much like an convenient excuse to me.

I would say this of that.  A sane person never, unless motivated by a higher good (like saving a life) avoids situations that are hostile, potential hostile or that are needless hassles.  I think this person will join CAP, but will reject the artificial pomposity of the forums.

[Major Carrales]

couldn't pass this one up 

In all due seriousness - one thing we should all consider is how would we feel being on the receiving  end of the comment we are about to post.

Yes many of us have been in the fire service, PD or EMS and we fry each other on a routine basis. But to Mr. Smith the accountant or the guy in I T that is utterly horrifying. Major C is on track - just take a second and think (and reread your post) about what's going out there.

The one uncountable statistic is how many potential member lurkers walk away from CAP after reading snark here?

  Champaign music on CAPTALK? MIKE is likley hovering over the LOCK button. Maybe later we can hear one from Anacani. 

That is the point.  The internet is so vast and searches bring up CAPTALK much more these days when searching for CAP topics that a person looking for CAP info will likely come to CAPTALK as many times as to CAP.GOV.  Thus, from a PAO stand point, posting things, issues, items of ridicule and dogpiling send a horrible message.

CAPTALK, is not a true reflection of CAP.  Of my Unit only about three people lurk here, of them only I  am a regular threadster.

The in depth discussion, however, give the reflection that this is the "PLACE," the Holy of Holies" of where CAP is reflected.  Thus, un-CAP Officer like behavior is seen as the norm.  The time then comes, they likely say "this is a group of schmendricks...why submit myself to that?"

Later today I will gather my friend's reactions and show him your replies.

[Flying Pig]

Then we should make it a secure site where you have to provide your identity and CAP ID number in order to register, post here, or read whats on the site.

Oh wait......a few of you are afraid to put your names on what you write......my mistake.   

[ColonelJack]

I've never been afraid to put my name to my posts.  But if you restrict membership to showing CAP ID numbers, or some such ... what about us retired folk or those not in the organization any more?  We wanna play too!!!

Jack

[flyerthom]

The gentleman does not needlessly and unnecessarily remind an offender of a wrong he may have committed against him. He can not only forgive; he can forget; and he strives for that nobleness of self and mildness of character which imparts sufficient strength to let the past be put the past.

Gen Robert E. Lee

[Eclipse]

I've never been afraid to put my name to my posts.  But if you restrict membership to showing CAP ID numbers, or some such ... what about us retired folk or those not in the organization any more?  We wanna play too!!!

Jack

My ongoing question, with no insult intended, is "Why?"

I'd have no issue whatsoever with a closed system that required validation of identity.  It would reduce the drive-bys, eliminate lurkers, and remove entirely the "we shouldn't talk about this in public" argument.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Then we should make it a secure site where you have to provide your identity and CAP ID number in order to register, post here, or read whats on the site.

Oh wait......a few of you are afraid to put your names on what you write......my mistake.   

You have my name through my email on my profile, here is my CAP ID.  Are you pleased now Lt?

[ColonelJack]

I've never been afraid to put my name to my posts.  But if you restrict membership to showing CAP ID numbers, or some such ... what about us retired folk or those not in the organization any more?  We wanna play too!!!

My ongoing question, with no insult intended, is "Why?"

No insult taken.  And you'd have as many different answers to your question as there are people out there.  I like to keep in touch with the organization, with an eye toward coming out of retirement and back into active CAP service.  (As soon as I can find the time -- you wouldn't believe how busy I am.)  I can't speak for others, but my time in CAP was extremely rewarding.  Being able to keep up with things through a group like CAPTalk would make it much easier for me to "catch up" with the way things are run these days when I finally do rejoin.

Jack

[fyrfitrmedic]

One behavior that I've seen here as well as on just about every other message board I've encountered is the kind of person who engages in downright reprehensible behavior from time to time but makages not to get the flick because they start into a bit of apologiy and self-deprecation, sometimes followed by a short self-imposed "vacation".

No  matter the politics at whatever echelon, I've never personally quite understood the apparent need for anonymity by some, but that may be just me...

[Flying Pig]

One thing I find funny is that one of our most notorious frequent and anonymous CAPTalkers hasnt been seen around in a while.  I wonder why that is?

[AvroArrow]

Let me clarify my earlier statement. I have no problem helping someone find the answer or clarify interpretations, as long as they at least look at the reg. I also have no problem saying, "look at CAPX AB-C which can be found at such and such location." I am not, however, going to just give them the answer.

A friend of mine standing next to me took a look at my computer and said to this...and I quote "Whoa... a real 'holier than thou' arguement on a CAP forum.  Wow!!!  And you wonder why I haven't got my fingerprint cards filled out."

You all don't realize how damaging some posts here are to CAP Public Affairs and recruiting.

Now my part...

Why aren't you going to give them the answer?  Does it hurt you to help a new fellow?

Plus, as I have come to note here...there are 1) numerous letters and policy changes that are not in any reg, 2) there are unwritten and uncodified "rules" that people here seem to hold in high regard, 3) there are USAF and other service conventions that "try as one might" will never be found in CAP publications.  4) Regional and Wing differences, 5) Local conventions and a host of other things that the attitiude of "look it up yourself" just won't answer and 6) search engines don't help people who have no "frame of reference" to the subject they are searching for.

Also, and have been needing to say this...this may be the proper time or not...

As CAP, we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard and public stance.  Some pointed out that the USAF forums are worse.  The USAF does not have to justify itself as CAP does.  Because of our dual nature and auxiliary status, we have to look professional at all times.  USAF folks can simply be granted that by wearing the uniform, the grey shouldermarks of CAP require that we work together at ALL TIMES.  When we don't we are all marked as posers and pretenders, that really mustn't be allowed.

When a problem is identified, it should be dealt with swiftly and with honor and respect.  Not with the sort of negative style of education, but with the idea that we are here to HELP and IMPROVE.

Do you know what happens in a classroom when the tactics y'all have been employing to "teach a lesson" through embarrasment is done?  Students shut down, they experience "true" (not the artificial type) low self-esteem and morale.  They shut down and lose respect for the teacher.  It leads to more problems.  Plus, the rest come to view the teacher as an "unreasonable blowhard" and general "Captain Harris," of Police Academy fame.   The quality of the group lessens.

However, when a person is approached face to face in private and the matter is talked out, the student sees the teacher as "reasonable" and many times (in almost all cases where it has happened to me) tge student improves because there is a true relationship between the two.

That is the crux of leadership in CAP...where subordiantes respect fellow CAP Officers and assist them into becoming better CAP Officers as fellows; so people will want to and look forward to accomplishing the missions...not live in fear of bullying ridicule and dogpiles.

As someone said earlier (forgot who) I usually like to read these forums rather than make a topic

But, what I would like to say is that Major Carrales is right. For one, we should act professional. I have had too many friends tell me that I'm just "playing soldier" in CAP, that I'm not doing anything productive, just pretending. However, they some of those thoughts disappeared when they heard that we helped Greensburg and Katrina  Anyways, like the Major said, we have more pressure to act professional because we're not in the actualy service (well, most of us aren't and there are, of course, retired veterans).

Now, I'm all in favor of promoting self-reliance, I truly am. But some of the posts that I've made about uniform stuff is because I already looked, found an answer, but that answer was very cloudy, muddy, unclear. For instance, when my dad and I were looking up about the alternative corporate uniform (the white aviator with gray pants) it said several stuff about "civilian outergarments" and "you can wear this, but not this even though the USAF says you can" and vise versa. So, when I ask a question, I promsie I've already looked at the 39-1. Maybe not thoroughly, but nonetheless...

Avro

[hatentx]

So by makibg this a private forum then those who are interested in the program would go where to find out about what the program is about. 
If a person is not acting professional then call them on it.  I believe this is thw origianal point of this post. 
Believe me if I am doing something wrong please let me know your silence only adds to the problem.

[Pumbaa]

How about an interim step.. Easy change in the forum software settings.  You have to register to view and post.  This way the spiders are shut out, so everything said on the forum does not come up in the Google search.

With the type of discussions that go on here, I would favor at the least to keep the information from just being open willy nilly... Make the folks register to read...

[MIKE]

• Think before you post.
• Don't be a prick... especially to newbies.
• Adults should behave like adults... This is not an Adult forum, keep it PG rated as cadets are present.
• Keep reminding yourself that everything posted is only a Google search away.  Think before you post.
• Be respectful, and keep it professional.
• Think before you post.

[Eclipse]

So by making this a private forum then those who are interested in the program would go where to find out about what the program is about.

This is not the place I would send a new or prospective member for information.

On one hand, many of the meaty, productive conversations are too "inside" to be of any use, on the other, the drive-bys and legalistic arguments we engage in (me too) aren't exactly a recruiting tool.

[ADCAPer]

Look like you give a crap, because in that uniform you don't just represent yourself.  You represent me and everyone that is a fellow member of CAP.

You've had a rather remarkable change of attitude since the beginning of the year, haven't you?

Before you get too vocal with your criticisms of anything, or anyone in this organization, you should remember that a lot of people still haven't forgotten that you fried all of your credibility when you announced that you were returning to your unit to resign because you were so upset that things didn't go your way with the new Wing CC.

[stratoflyer]

As someone said earlier (forgot who) I usually like to read these forums rather than make a topic

But, what I would like to say is that Major Carrales is right. For one, we should act professional. I have had too many friends tell me that I'm just "playing soldier" in CAP, that I'm not doing anything productive, just pretending. However, they some of those thoughts disappeared when they heard that we helped Greensburg and Katrina  Wink Anyways, like the Major said, we have more pressure to act professional because we're not in the actualy service (well, most of us aren't and there are, of course, retired veterans).

Now, I'm all in favor of promoting self-reliance, I truly am. But some of the posts that I've made about uniform stuff is because I already looked, found an answer, but that answer was very cloudy, muddy, unclear. For instance, when my dad and I were looking up about the alternative corporate uniform (the white aviator with gray pants) it said several stuff about "civilian outergarments" and "you can wear this, but not this even though the USAF says you can" and vise versa. So, when I ask a question, I promsie I've already looked at the 39-1. Maybe not thoroughly, but nonetheless...

Avro

I understand how you feel. It seems that this thread is just as usual. But a lot of what goes on here is venting and healthy arguments. But for the MOST part, people are professional. Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. Just be respectful

I've been doing a lot of recruiting these weeks and I have never, not once mentioned anything on the web except for  gocivilairpatrol.com to prospective members. If they need information, the squadron commander is the ultimate source of information and /or guidance on a subject.

Once you've been in it for a while AND you know how online communities can be, then I will say "you know what, there's this little forum on the internet" if they havent already stumbled upon it.

Shoot, I got my little questions here and there, and I got to say...that this forum has been EXTREMELY helpful in many ways. It has also been motivating to see there are so many of us passionate about CAP out there. Yes, I have run into a few posters here that were less than admirable, but I understand what the online community can be.

But yes, let's do this correctly and professionally.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Look like you give a crap, because in that uniform you don't just represent yourself.  You represent me and everyone that is a fellow member of CAP.

You've had a rather remarkable change of attitude since the beginning of the year, haven't you?

Before you get too vocal with your criticisms of anything, or anyone in this organization, you should remember that a lot of people still haven't forgotten that you fried all of your credibility when you announced that you were returning to your unit to resign because you were so upset that things didn't go your way with the new Wing CC.

ok gacapmember.

[Major Carrales]

Before you get too vocal with your criticisms of anything, or anyone in this organization, you should remember that a lot of people still haven't forgotten that you fried all of your credibility when you announced that you were returning to your unit to resign because you were so upset that things didn't go your way with the new Wing CC.

Careful, that type of "one-upsmanship" can be just as distastful.  We should debate issues and leave the personal commentary for PM.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Major,

Actually let him speak.  He has an opinion that he feels he needs to vent, so let him.  I have sent a PM asking him to talk to me.

Some people have been overly critical of me lately. BFD.  Let me try to explain somthing. 

Yes, my person for Wing CC  didn't make it.  Heck my 2nd, or 3rd choices didn't either.  Also BFD.  I took 8 months off CAP too reflect on why I was a member.  most of my very close and personal friends chose to leave CAP for calmer waters.  Thay is their choice and I will defend my friends.  If some one has ill feelings towards my choice for best men at my wedding, once again BFD and finger salutes.  It was my wedding not yours. Moving on.

My dislike for the current wing commander is obvious, but I will respect the poosition and the grade that is earned, and they know it.  I have an an email that I can prove for this subject.  But here is what not known. 

I have about 10 emails from wing leadership asking for my credentials to see where I could best fit in to the wing.  I took time off to realize that my love for CAP far outwieghs my dislike for many topics.

Let me make my self clear on this.  My reason for comments in January (8 months ago BTW) came across wrong and I realize that.  My choice for Wing CC was not selected, but thats not why I was upset and angered.  My anger came from HOW it was handeled.

Lets talk credibility for one brief moment.  It has been claimed that I have none, and that wing leadership wants me out.  Thats why I am the Deputy Commander for a local squadron and just been named back onto Wing Staff as ES Training Officer.  Somthing about no credibility.....?

So gacapmember (your CAPInsights name) you have a PM waiting, I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Mods, please do not lock this forum, there needs to be a place for this discussion, and aparently it needs to be here and now.

[MIKE]

No it doesn't.