The "Don't Hurt your feelings police"

[jimmydeanno]

So this doesn't get the "show yourself" thread derailed or locked...

Recently I have been making comments in this thread to the effect that we shouldn't be publicly critcizing the members that decide to show themselves here.  I find it rather disturbing that many members here have no problem criticizing those around us in public.

Many of us work with cadets.  How many of us tell the cadets to praise in public and discipline in private?  I would hope all of us.  To do so otherwise would be unprofessional and contrary to the environment of respect that we are trying to create in our organization.

Some seem to say "grow thicker skin" if you don't like it. Or don't post a picture of yourself if you can't handle the comments - as though these comments are an expected and anticipated/necessary part of posting a picture. 

Do we expect our children to "grow thicker skin" if they are being bullied or made fun of in school or being hazed, or do we teach them to learn how to handle the problem in a responsible and mature manner, like finding a way to stop the actions from occuring.  I'm pretty sure that as parents you would not tolerate an environment in which the expectation was that your family or yourself was going to be made fun of or disrespected.

This forum is a community and a place for professional discussion.  However, I notice that none of the users that have been criticized publicly in that thread have posted since.  I wonder why that is...

The forum has a PM system for a reason.  If you think that a picture is so offensive and disrespectful to "the uniform" then why don't you try PM'ing the "violator" and asking them to find a different picture.  Wouldn't that be the more respectful and responsible way to do this?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you about wishing people would post pictures that were 100% correct.  I also wish that people would be able to put their clothes on correctly.

To me, the way that these uniform discrepancies are being handled is similar to me showing up at the National Conference and singling you out in front of the entire audience, over the microphone and insulting you in front of everyone.  I'm sure you'd be pretty upset.

We talk all day on here about how we need to be professional and present a positive image to those around us, both in and out of the organization.  Yet, when someone is "disrespectful to the uniform" it seems to negate the responsibility as officers to remain respectful and courteous.

I don't like it and I will not participate in the public criticism and mocking of our fellow team members - if you chose to intentionally critcize and humiliate members of our own team, I think that you are the one that is being disrespectful and presenting a negative image of our organization.

Respect is one of our core values. I'm going to choose to live up to it,  YMMV.

[sarflyer]

Good one Jimmy! :clap:

As a long time police officer and member I have found that people have a hard time talking to people when it comes to a complaint.

They're afraid of retaliation.  I wish people could follow the rule you quoted, it would solve a lot of problems.

Remember, were not here to shame people into compliance.  It's about getting their cooperation to follow the rules and join the team!

[jb512]

So this doesn't get the "show yourself" thread derailed or locked...

Recently I have been making comments in this thread to the effect that we shouldn't be publicly critcizing the members that decide to show themselves here.  I find it rather disturbing that many members here have no problem criticizing those around us in public.

Many of us work with cadets.  How many of us tell the cadets to praise in public and discipline in private?  I would hope all of us.  To do so otherwise would be unprofessional and contrary to the environment of respect that we are trying to create in our organization.

Some seem to say "grow thicker skin" if you don't like it. Or don't post a picture of yourself if you can't handle the comments - as though these comments are an expected and anticipated/necessary part of posting a picture. 

That's exactly what a lot of people need to do these days.  Get tough and work out your problems because we shouldn't have to hold your hand.  And yes, if you post your picture in a public forum, then that is part of what to expect especially if you are wearing a uniform.

Do we expect our children to "grow thicker skin" if they are being bullied or made fun of in school or being hazed, or do we teach them to learn how to handle the problem in a responsible and mature manner, like finding a way to stop the actions from occuring.  I'm pretty sure that as parents you would not tolerate an environment in which the expectation was that your family or yourself was going to be made fun of or disrespected.

Yes we do expect them to, or at least I want that for my children.  Part of growing up is learning that life isn't always fair and sometimes you have to figure out ways to solve problems when I'm not around.  If it is a criminal act, then by all means you can ask for help but if someone's just calling you names then you need to learn to deal with that.  If you're being made fun of, you might need to ask yourself a few questions because it may not always be everyone else's environment that needs to change.

This forum is a community and a place for professional discussion.  However, I notice that none of the users that have been criticized publicly in that thread have posted since.  I wonder why that is...

The forum has a PM system for a reason.  If you think that a picture is so offensive and disrespectful to "the uniform" then why don't you try PM'ing the "violator" and asking them to find a different picture.  Wouldn't that be the more respectful and responsible way to do this?

These are common sense things that we are commenting about.  I haven't seen any one of us post anything demeaning, condescending, or otherwise inappropriate.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you about wishing people would post pictures that were 100% correct.  I also wish that people would be able to put their clothes on correctly.

To me, the way that these uniform discrepancies are being handled is similar to me showing up at the National Conference and singling you out in front of the entire audience, over the microphone and insulting you in front of everyone.  I'm sure you'd be pretty upset.

Ehh, it's not that bad.  There are tens of people who read this forum...  

We talk all day on here about how we need to be professional and present a positive image to those around us, both in and out of the organization.  Yet, when someone is "disrespectful to the uniform" it seems to negate the responsibility as officers to remain respectful and courteous.

Pointing out that someone needs to shave, or wear an undershirt is not disrespectful, nor is it discourteous.

I don't like it and I will not participate in the public criticism and mocking of our fellow team members - if you chose to intentionally critcize and humiliate members of our own team, I think that you are the one that is being disrespectful and presenting a negative image of our organization.

Your opinion, but again I haven't seen any of that.  I've posted pictures of myself in here before and I'm open to anything anyone says about them and I promise I won't get my feelings hurt.  

Respect is one of our core values. I'm going to choose to live up to it,  YMMV.

We should not only exhibit respect ourselves, but also demand it of others.  If you choose to show disrespect then we really can't help ya if you get called out on it.

Our catch phrase at work has always been "common sense and good judgement".  You can apply that to everything, and if you think something ain't right, then it probably isn't.  If you want to wear a uniform, then you better make sure you're doing it right before you leave the house, not only for your own image but for mine and for those who have worn it before you.

[IceNine]

The sky is blue... NO IT's NOT is fucia.

Does all of what you said help you sleep at night?  I hope you are just spewing and not living like that because what you just portrayed is neither officership nor acting as a gentlemen.  And that is the kind of person that spoils the waters for this program.

[jb512]

The sky is blue... NO IT's NOT is fucia.

Does all of what you said help you sleep at night?  I hope you are just spewing and not living like that because what you just portrayed is neither officership nor acting as a gentlemen.  And that is the kind of person that spoils the waters for this program.

I think my post might've slipped in before yours.

There are three of us above you, who are you directed at?

[IceNine]

^You.

[jb512]

^You.

I'm hard and crusty on the outside, but chewy on the inside.

And yes, the sky is blue.

[jimmydeanno]

It would seem to me that if something by your own admission is intentionally hurtful to others, then your saying above, "common sense and good judgement" is not being applied.

An Officer and a Gentlemen is one who applies common decency and respect to all regardless of the situation, let us not forget that in our dealings with others.

Let us lead by example.

[jb512]

It would seem to me that if something by your own admission is intentionally hurtful to others, then your saying above, "common sense and good judgement" is not being applied.

An Officer and a Gentlemen is one who applies common decency and respect to all regardless of the situation, let us not forget that in our dealings with others.

Let us lead by example.

No one is intending to hurt.  All we were asking for was a shave.

[jimmydeanno]

I'm not trying to single out a specific comment or poster, just stop a general trend I've noticed.

As we all know, comments can mean different things to different people.  By your own admission, you could care less about comments people make about you, however, that doesn't mean that we should make them publicly.

We've seen here that often times things are taken out of context, people get into arguments that were intended because something was mis-interpreted.

All I'm saying is that criticism like creating a "motivational poster" featuring someone's uniform discrepancy is probably going to offend or come across entirely wrong, intentionally or not. 

I don't think that the expectation should be that people get "thicker skin." I think the expectation should be that the comments aren't made publicly in the first place.

[jb512]

I'm not trying to single out a specific comment or poster, just stop a general trend I've noticed.

And I'm not usually in the minority when it comes to most things so I'm trying to find a middle ground in this discussion.

As we all know, comments can mean different things to different people.  By your own admission, you could care less about comments people make about you, however, that doesn't mean that we should make them publicly.

Maybe that comes from life experience.  I'm secure in myself and my appearance and to me wearing a uniform properly isn't difficult.

We've seen here that often times things are taken out of context, people get into arguments that were intended because something was mis-interpreted.

All I'm saying is that criticism like creating a "motivational poster" featuring someone's uniform discrepancy is probably going to offend or come across entirely wrong, intentionally or not. 

I don't think that the expectation should be that people get "thicker skin." I think the expectation should be that the comments aren't made publicly in the first place.

I think it could take a bit of both.  People shouldn't be that naive and should be able to take corrective criticism.  If you're making fun of a defect that someone has no control over, then I completely agree with you.  On the other hand, if I post a picture of myself with my fly undone and everyone jumps on the bandwagon to jack with me, then I'll laugh at myself and know that I'm loved.   

And I know you'll hate me, but grinned slightly at the motivational poster.  It was just.... well...

[Major Carrales]

I used to recommend CADETSTUFF and CAPTALK to new cadets as places to get information.  I had to stop that when a parent approached me and commented that their child...a cadet...was basically "dogpiled."

I then ran a series of "test" posts at both (one of which some of you may remember) and the results were extremely vitriolic.

I no longer recommend the forums to cadets.  CAP Officers are another matter.

I think many here lose sight of the fact that people come here for information and to some degree to belong.  There are many here, for what ever reason, that have appointed themselves some sort of DEFENDER of the FAITH.  There are also, as was pointed out to me, certain "cliques" of which it is hard to negotiate if one encounters a problem with fellow cohorts.  Thus, the dogpiles.

Totally disingenuous and not germane to the facts at hand.  It is done out of spite more than of discourse.  That's what burns me up.

And not just that issue, but when new people come on or someone asking for remedy to some issue (like the original posts of Civilian_Pilot, if memory serves he originally got online here to address an issue with an ascerbic IC...it went all down hill from there) they are met with snobbish attitude about search engines and anything but a seasoned response.

The "Funny Uniform" threads are the worst, followed by attacks related to our last major scandal and then newbie questions that people deem to "basic" to answer.

I've learned that the above methods provide no positive recourse.  I've also had to redact my posts when I have...after even just a few minutes of thought...made an attack or other comment that is best left to PM, or not said at all.

Now, let's see who proves my point...Myron, the tick tock polka please...

[jimmydeanno]

I think it could take a bit of both.  People shouldn't be that naive and should be able to take corrective criticism.

Shouldn't the criticism be constructive and appropriate?  If the desired result is to correct a certain behavior, then perhaps trying to teach someone first would be a better approach, no?

I've PM'd people about uniform related stuff here and was met by constructive and positive responses.  Even a good laugh in between.

[stratoflyer]

I had this whole thing written up but decided that you guys would slug it out on your own anyway.

I came to this forum seeking knowledge and sharing ideas. Since it's an internet thing, I KNEW FULL WELL what an internet community can be sometimes, and so far, I've been right. Bottom line, I was prepared.

[AvroArrow]

I had this whole thing written up but decided that you guys would slug it out on your own anyway.

I came to this forum seeking knowledge and sharing ideas. Since it's an internet thing, I KNEW FULL WELL what an internet community can be sometimes, and so far, I've been right. Bottom line, I was prepared.

Same thing with me   

I used to recommend CADETSTUFF and CAPTALK to new cadets as places to get information.  I had to stop that when a parent approached me and commented that their child...a cadet...was basically "dogpiled."

I then ran a series of "test" posts at both (one of which some of you may remember) and the results were extremely vitriolic.

I no longer recommend the forums to cadets.  CAP Officers are another matter.

I think many here lose sight of the fact that people come here for information and to some degree to belong.  There are many here, for what ever reason, that have appointed themselves some sort of DEFENDER of the FAITH.  There are also, as was pointed out to me, certain "cliques" of which it is hard to negotiate if one encounters a problem with fellow cohorts.  Thus, the dogpiles.

Totally disingenuous and not germane to the facts at hand.  It is done out of spite more than of discourse.  That's what burns me up.

And not just that issue, but when new people come on or someone asking for remedy to some issue (like the original posts of Civilian_Pilot, if memory serves he originally got online here to address an issue with an ascerbic IC...it went all down hill from there[/u]) they are met with snobbish attitude about search engines and anything but a seasoned response.

The "Funny Uniform" threads are the worst, followed by attacks related to our last major scandal and then newbie questions that people deem to "basic" to answer.

I've learned that the above methods provide no positive recourse.  I've also had to redact my posts when I have...after even just a few minutes of thought...made an attack or other comment that is best left to PM, or not said at all.

Now, let's see who proves my point...Myron, the tick tock polka please...

I can  prove your point.

Call me unresourceful and lazy, (which I admit that I am a lot of times, especially when using the internet) but some of the topics that I've started and/or responded to got some real overreacted responses. I asked a question about shoulder cords, and got called off by not using the terminology "Class A and B" instead of "Service (Dress) Uniform..." and I ahve some pretty rude PMs to prove it    Also, I've learned to just busily read through the 39-1 despite its length to avoid some social rejection and (in my mind, immature) name-callings/making fun of from CAPTalk.

Once more, call me "thin skinned," but, and maybe it's just me, CAP members, both Cadet and Senior alike, should be stern and straight-foward with lazy people such as myself rather than rude and malevolent.

Avro   

[MIKE]

I asked a question about shoulder cords, and got called off by not using the terminology "Class A and B" instead of "Service (Dress) Uniform..." and I ahve some pretty rude PMs to prove it   

If you don't report PMs, we can't do anything about 'em... and if you use Report To Admin I can't help you.

[Stonewall]

I think people are too soft, sensitive and overly worried about hurting peoples' feelings.

People are saying "I wouldn't recommend cadets visit CadetStuff or CAP Talk because I wouldn't want them seeing what goes on here...".  Well, in my 20 years of experience in CAP, all of which has been working with cadets, I've been able to do what's right when it's right.  I don't speak to a 13 year old cadet the same way I speak to a 17 year old cadet.  And I don't speak to a CAP Captain or Major the same way I speak to a brand new senior member with 6 months in the program.  It's called weighing the situation and maintaining a good balance.

The problem comes when some people, usually the senior members with several years in, that never got told how it is.  They've been coddled and treated like a child and no one ever told them DO IT THIS WAY AND LIKE IT.  Hurt your feelings?  Oh well, man up and be a....no, not a Ranger...just be a man...a grown up. 

If you're a grown man, 22 or 52, and post a picture of yourself in a CAP uniform with more than a 5 'o clock shadow, then yeah, I'm going to call you out on it.  I bet that you will take it to heart, maybe even be a little mad at me...maybe mad at yourself, but you'll understand that you don't put that uniform on without shaving first.  Or, I could PM you and say "I'm sorry young man, but you really should shave when in uniform...you may set a bad example for others...".  Yeah, that'll leave a lasting impression.

Come on people, be adults.  Yes, I'm talking to the senior members, not the cadets.  But still, the cadets should strive to act like adults to an extent.  Stop coddling each other and singing Cum-bay-ah around the camp fire.

[Major Carrales]

Come on people, be adults.  Yes, I'm talking to the senior members, not the cadets.  But still, the cadets should strive to act like adults to an extent.  Stop coddling each other and singing Cum-bay-ah around the camp fire.

I have to disagree, the more honorable (and encouraged) thing for a CAP OFFICER adult would use PM and instruct with understanding.  Then, if the situation was not remedied, move to other action.  The action would then be to contact the offending CAP Officer's unit commander for correction.  I have had that happen to people under my command...the situation was rememdied and...if not, the Squadron Commander's actions would have to involve a refusal to comply with policy.  That could be, appearently, a 2B offense (willfull refusal to follow CAP policy inspite of constant and repeated corrections)

We don't have to go "all hippy" on it, but we can first appeal to the reason of a CAP Officer wishing to be insturcted or otherwise "ignorant" of a CAP Policy.  And then use the established system to solve the matter.

I submit wishing to humiliate a fellow CAP member is more for the purpose of ridicule, than any corrective action.

[jb512]

I think it could take a bit of both.  People shouldn't be that naive and should be able to take corrective criticism.

Shouldn't the criticism be constructive and appropriate?  If the desired result is to correct a certain behavior, then perhaps trying to teach someone first would be a better approach, no?

Certainly, but that's not our job here in the forum.  If a person is a 2nd Lt, you'd think they would've been taught how to wear the uniform by their chain of command over the time it took them to get there.  Yes, I know, that's a stretch...

[B.Kahuna]

Okay-I am a cadet, and I must say I am appalled by this thread. In our own leadership text it says to correct people privately when possible. If you won't do this out of decency, do it to follow your own organization's guidelines.


Senior Members, I mean this with the highest respect. I apologize in advance if you take offense to my comments.