Common Access Cards (CAC)

[KyCAP]

OK..

So, I am reaching out for some of the larger brains that are connected out there on this one.

Our National Guard / EM guys are ULTRA supportive in the great Commonwealth of Ky.  One of the issues that we keep banging our heads over is our ability to share some of their resources for Emergency Management and just plain "unsecured internet".

The National Guard Bureau (Federal Level) has told the leadership that to get a CAC card for our members that we have to be
1) National Guard Members (or)
2) State Employees (or)
3) Government Contractors

Now, we've got some of #1, some of #2 and some of #3 in the CAP rank and file, but nothing that just a plain old #4 CAP member category who doesn't fall into 1-3 could have access to a CAC card.

Now, working on another thread tonight, I had this train of thought.

1) CAP, Inc IS a government subcontractor hence the terminology when the USAF awards a CONTRACT to non-profit corporational Civil Air Patrol, Inc. annually. 

That would mean that ANY Civil Air Patrol, Inc corporate employee can follow the same process any GSA contractor with a Statement of Work would have and apply to DSS for security clearance processing and/or apply for a CAC card.

This leaves a hole in the what's the Volunteer to the organization?   We're not employees because we don't receive consideration for our time (money).  The only corporate officers are the "Wing Commanders and Up" which defines that the Wing Admins and NHQ staff work for the "Corporate Officers"...

Anyone else out there see the conundrum I am trying to work through on this?   If CAP, Inc were to take $1 of our membership and cut us a check back to us, then we would technically be employees who volunteer a lot of time and cut through a whole load of "techincalities" like enabling the sponsorship of security clearances and other resources that ANY GOVERNMENT CONTRACTOR (like myself) has access to.

I am the GSA contract manager for my companies GSA schedule... So, I am trying to piece this all together for the rest of you all out there...

[PHall]

You can keep trying, but it ain't flying.
CAC's, which stands for COMMON Access Card, are also Department of Defense Identification Cards.

Ain't no way they're going to issue one to Joe Blow CAP Member.

But, they (The Guard System Administrator) can authorise non-CAC card holders to access the Guard's LAN.
They do it for short term contractors, MWR employees and such all the time.

But convincing them that our members are worth the risks could be quite the task. Good luck.

[hatentx]

The purpose is to allow DOD personnel into many things as well.  I know out civilians get a limited access to some thing where I work but it is worth a try I see your logic in it all to be honest.  I would wonder who the Aproving Authority would be on a decision like that.  Post commander, Commo Commnader, KYNG commander, or even higher?

[Eclipse]

If CAP, Inc were to take $1 of our membership and cut us a check back to us, then we would technically be employees who volunteer a lot of time and cut through a whole load of "technicalities" like enabling the sponsorship of security clearances and other resources that ANY GOVERNMENT CONTRACTOR (like myself) has access to.

No, we wouldn't.  In fact, were we to be classified as employees, CAP would be in violation of minimum wage laws all over the place.  And being an employee would give members rights we don't want or need them to have,  Think its tough to 2b someone today, try involving the labor board as well.

As most we would be contractors, and again a legit business relationship comes with responsibilities and caveats we don't need or want. The auxiliary / corporate situation, for all its foibles, is also a pretty good setup.

Common Access Cards are not necessary for the majority of users, in fact, most members probably never get near a military base on a regular enough basis to even utilize it.

[KyCAP]

Got it.. redacted to Common.. Just was thinking Computer since that is the "primary" reason we were looking for them.

We have a sponsor in the NG (J-6 Commander/ NG CIO for the rest of us cilvillians) in KY that was going to authorize "as needed" in conjunction with our Wing CC or designee.

Also, bases are not the destination here.   In KY there are two "bases" Campbell, Knox.  The focus here is more "reasonable" and local access.   KyNG Armories and the Ky EM offices.   

Eclipse your thoughts are what I was actually trolling around in the back of my mind... 

[FW]

You may be able to use a "token" card.  It's a CAC card without a picture.  The card is secured and an "authorized" CAP member is allowed to use it for computer access.  It is one of the ways "VSAF" CAP members can use the computers while assisting at assigned bases.

[KyCAP]

Now we're talking... All of these cards are basically two factor authentication devices... My company actually sells the RSA branded cards...  A Token card... That's new terminology.   It's all in how we ask the question.

[mikeylikey]

We have a sponsor in the NG (J-6 Commander/ NG CIO for the rest of us civilians) in KY that was going to authorize "as needed" in conjunction with our Wing CC or designee.

I would be very interested to know what and how he would register you in DEERS/RAPIDS system.  Last I checked, there was no "Civil Air Patrol" category.

As far as CAP members ever getting CAC, very doubtful.  I would place my money on getting metal rank insignia back on the AF-Style blues before AF allows CAP to have a Govt ID card. 

Funny, that the crack smoking kid working the burger king French fry fryer on an AF installation can get a CAC, but hard working, non paid patriots serving their communities State and Nation, can't get that benefit.   

Now, as per an Executive Order signed two years ago, the "next generation" CAC and FED ID card, may be an option, if NHQ gets its act together and presents it correctly.  Especially with future missions for DHS and other FED agencies looming on the horizon.  We could easily get a CAC FED ID CARD that says "Civilian", and "Civil Air Patrol" in the department field.

Funny thing is, I heard a rumor that the AF actually brought the issue of the CAC to CAPNHQ, who turned it down.  My sources are from the CAP-USAF side, so I trust them greatly. 

Anyway...... here is a link     http://www.cac.mil/index.html

[KyCAP]

Mike,

Agreed.   We have a huge hurdle we're trying to overcome to be better integrated with our willing National Guard and getting stymied without access to their LAN.   There are applications that KyEM uses for their EOC for mission reporting and uploading our images from SDIS for example.   

FW - What's this Token card process?  Are those issues to individuals or is there just some kind of "checkout" process where the VSAF members are working?

[hatentx]

Well I see what is being said but again CAP is every where and how many of them would even use it.  Then you would run into the issue of people forgetting the CAC log in pin.  I am AD Army and half of my troops couldn't tell you there CAC Pin.  I would say for certain units it would be useful such as the guy that started the post and trying to get in the NIPPER or SIPPER internet lines but other than that I would only see Sr Members needing them if not only the CO or XO of the Squadron

[FW]

FW - What's this Token card process?  Are those issues to individuals or is there just some kind of "checkout" process where the VSAF members are working?

It seems to be a checkout process.  VSAF members checkout card when starting and  give it back before leaving.  Card is secured at location and (I think) is issued to individual in charge.

[KyCAP]

That would be a step in the right direction for us.

One of the issues that we have is that some of the planning documents for our emergency response docs are stored in simply.. Microsoft Sharepoint.   So, when we need "Current" copies we have to bother someone over there to log in and EMAIL the power point and word documents to us... now... imagine trying to keep up to synch on this as the revisions are being checked in.

We don't want anything "secure" or secret squirrel.  Just the ability to get to the internet and several computer resources that "civilian / govt" employees would have very easy access to in the same department from any LAN /WAN terminal.   

I guess one piece of this I am leavining out.. Not sure how it is in other states.

In KY the command structure is

Gov -> TAG who is then over the KyNG and the Director of Ky EM as best I can tell.  So the KyEM actually sits on the KyNG LAN/WAN and not a system that is apparently connected to the rest of the "state employees".  For example, all of the KyEM staff have army.mil addresses while the rest of the state has ky.gov email addresses...

[Eclipse]

One of the issues that we have is that some of the planning documents for our emergency response docs are stored in simply.. Microsoft Sharepoint. 

You have CAP docs on a Sharepoint that CAP doesn't control?  Why?

[mikeylikey]

In the very near future, CAP will most likely be mandated to update their ID CARDS to a Federal specification, or at the very least adopt the NEXT GEN CAC for "Non-DoD/Other government employees".  It will be used to access data systems, and for entry into DHS mission sites and operations.  

HECK, to get on a base recently, they had two lines, one a CAC line, and the other a no CAC line.  The CAC line is automated, with the driver swiping his or her card in a reader and the gate opens.  The non-CAC line, was a sentry checking other ID cards (retirees, dependants, NAF civilians etc) and was backed up real far.  I would estimate it would take 10 to 15 minutes to get on the base if I didn't have a CAC.  I read that most installations will have this type of "improved" security system by 2010.  Should be awesome for those CAP members meeting on bases and posts.  

As far as the CAC......I do see a legitimate need for CAP members to have one.  I also see how it can be be abused by a certain group in CAP.  Can you imagine the first time a CAP member tries to pass himself or herself off as military, and shop at the Commissary, or heaven forbid, the PX/BX?  

 

[FW]

For "routine" computer access, may I suggest your wing use a commercial IP.  Keep all your docs where it is readily accessed and share with EOC or EMA computers via "flash drive"..

When you are in EOC or EMA, you should have access to system and, once "in", you should be able to access any internet site needed.

I'm beginning to wonder why you would need other govt. access to computers. Doesn't your Wing/HQ have them or internet access?  We spend big bucks for computer IP access every year.

[KyCAP]

These are KyNG docs on a KyNG server that CAP executes as part of their Operations Order.

[mikeylikey]

These are KyNG docs on a KyNG server that CAP executes as part of their Operations Order.

If that is the case, someone needs to explain to the KyNG that CAP has ZERO access to KyNG computer systems, and they are blocking State directives that CAP participate with them in the ES arena.  Someone needs to make an appointment to see the TAG, and it should be your Wing King. 

[KyCAP]

Been there done that.   I have met with the J-6 Commander who is a COL in NG with the blessing of the TAG to get this resolved and the NGB in DC said....

1) Military
2) Contractor
3) State Employee

In KY... CAP is even designated as a unit of the Dept of Military Affairs by State Law..  It's not an issue of them wanting to help us at the state level... We can't ask for a better relationship at this point.

Hence, my discussion thread here looking for alternative thinking on the definition of the role of the CAP member.   We're on the bleeding edge of integration with the NG and they are being VERY willing.  In fact two of our CAP buildings were considered to be torn down to make way for NG armories.  One bit the bullet and in return we're getting designated CAP office space in the new multi-million dollar structure.

If we could get this CAC card thing ironed out, I am sure that we could get NG WAN connectivity to our Wing HQ in no less than at least one PC that would allow us to be able to RAPIDLY disseminate our information during large scale events and training.

[afgeo4]

Been there done that.   I have met with the J-6 Commander who is a COL in NG with the blessing of the TAG to get this resolved and the NGB in DC said....

1) Military
2) Contractor
3) State Employee

In KY... CAP is even designated as a unit of the Dept of Military Affairs by State Law..  It's not an issue of them wanting to help us at the state level... We can't ask for a better relationship at this point.

Hence, my discussion thread here looking for alternative thinking on the definition of the role of the CAP member.   We're on the bleeding edge of integration with the NG and they are being VERY willing.  In fact two of our CAP buildings were considered to be torn down to make way for NG armories.  One bit the bullet and in return we're getting designated CAP office space in the new multi-million dollar structure.

If we could get this CAC card thing ironed out, I am sure that we could get NG WAN connectivity to our Wing HQ in no less than at least one PC that would allow us to be able to RAPIDLY disseminate our information during large scale events and training.

Can a state gov't declare a federal agency part of them? I think NOT. That Kentucky law claiming CAP as a unit in their DMA would be challenged by the federal court on its first mention and the Feds would win.

No federal agency can be made a unit of a state or local government. We can have agreements and we can work together, but CAP is a FEDERAL government agency and therefore cannot be a state agency (conflict of interest).

[KyCAP]

We're getting off of topic. 

[brasda91]

When you are in EOC or EMA, you should have access to system and, once "in", you should be able to access any internet site needed.

I'm beginning to wonder why you would need other govt. access to computers. Doesn't your Wing/HQ have them or internet access?  We spend big bucks for computer IP access every year.

How about because my unit will be moving to a NG Training Center (high-tech armory) within the next year?  If we don't have simple internet access, it puts a hindrance on us.  How you ask?  Something as simple as checking the reg's since they're online.  What about my members who don't have a computer, but need internet access to complete OPSEC or the GES test.

I work for a private company that enriches uranium for the Dept. of Energy.  I have a DOE "Q" clearance, but yet I can't get a card for simple internet access?

We pay for internet access for those units that have a phone line.  For years my squadron had its own private building on private property.  We could never afford a phone line.  Therefore could never have internet access in our building.  Now we are moving in with the NG, KY State Police, Army Reserves and who ever else, but can't get access to the internet. 

[desertengineer1]

Umm, no.  They will get a 387 card to get access to the base.  Only a DoD employee or contractor that requires network (or controlled area) access will get a CAC. 

_____________________________________________________

Funny, that the crack smoking kid working the burger king French fry fryer on an AF installation can get a CAC, but hard working, non paid patriots serving their communities State and Nation, can't get that benefit.   

Anyway...... here is a link     http://www.cac.mil/index.html

___________________________________________

[FW]

When you are in EOC or EMA, you should have access to system and, once "in", you should be able to access any internet site needed.

I'm beginning to wonder why you would need other govt. access to computers. Doesn't your Wing/HQ have them or internet access?  We spend big bucks for computer IP access every year.

How about because my unit will be moving to a NG Training Center (high-tech armory) within the next year?  If we don't have simple internet access, it puts a hindrance on us.  How you ask?  Something as simple as checking the reg's since they're online.  What about my members who don't have a computer, but need internet access to complete OPSEC or the GES test.

I work for a private company that enriches uranium for the Dept. of Energy.  I have a DOE "Q" clearance, but yet I can't get a card for simple internet access?

We pay for internet access for those units that have a phone line.  For years my squadron had its own private building on private property.  We could never afford a phone line.  Therefore could never have internet access in our building.  Now we are moving in with the NG, KY State Police, Army Reserves and who ever else, but can't get access to the internet. 

Maj, try working with your State Director.  Other units have had similar problems which were solved one way or another.  I don't think this should be a major problem.  

[mikeylikey]

Umm, no.  They will get a 387 card to get access to the base.  Only a DoD employee or contractor that requires network (or controlled area) access will get a CAC. 

_____________________________________________________

Funny, that the crack smoking kid working the burger king French fry fryer on an AF installation can get a CAC, but hard working, non paid patriots serving their communities State and Nation, can't get that benefit.   

Anyway...... here is a link     http://www.cac.mil/index.html

___________________________________________

Ya....I have seen AAFES employees walking around with CAC's.  Last time I checked, AAFES runs the BK's on post. 

[RiverAux]

KyCAP's original logic regarding issuing them to certain CAP members as government contractors has a certain logic to it.  As has been stated, the overwhelming majority of CAP members have no need, but there are those for whom this would make life a lot simpler. 

[PHall]

Umm, no.  They will get a 387 card to get access to the base.  Only a DoD employee or contractor that requires network (or controlled area) access will get a CAC. 

_____________________________________________________

Funny, that the crack smoking kid working the burger king French fry fryer on an AF installation can get a CAC, but hard working, non paid patriots serving their communities State and Nation, can't get that benefit.   

Anyway...... here is a link     http://www.cac.mil/index.html

___________________________________________

Ya....I have seen AAFES employees walking around with CAC's.  Last time I checked, AAFES runs the BK's on post. 

Probably because they're dependants.

[md132]

Dependents don't get a CAC unless they need it for work.  They have the tan dependent ID.  AAFES employees mostly have them because they are required to access certain AAFES applications like email.  Or if they don't use the old style ID cards that was used 20 years ago then they get a CAC with the DoD logo and it says DoD civilian.  They also get it if they get deployed.  (Yes AAFES employess also get deployed.) 

[afgeo4]

AAFES is a DoD contractor and thus their employees get contractor CAC cards and vehicle decals.

[mikeylikey]

^ Thank you. 

AAFES is also a join Command between the Air Force and the Army.  If I am not mistaken a new Brigadier General (Army) just took over from a Major General (AF).

^ Useless fact.  Sorry!!

[lordmonar]

Well here is by $.02.

We will never get CACs because:

1) too expensive to issue and adminster.
2) The majority of CAP units don't need them.

Here on Nellis we got a password that allows us to use the computers in the ALS facility but we don't get network access.  We cut a deal where we get an internet feed for our CAP computer....it's not working right now....but it does not give us access to the government network.

Work with the comm guys....they may have fix for your situation....but CACs for general membership just won't work.

[PHall]

When I was in a unit that met on an Active Duty Air Force Base we just got a regular "outside line" telephone line. (You can get them, you just have to ask.)

The Air Force liked it because we weren't on DSN, so they didn't have to worry about long distance bills, and we weren't on the base LAN. That really made them happy!

We just had our one phone line that we had DSL on so we use the computer to send stuff to wing and national plus we had a fax/scanner/copier machine so we could fax stuff too.

Kind of a win-win for everybody.

[KyCAP]

We don't have any problems with Voice lines.  Voice these days is part of the LAN thanks to VoIP and Cisco and controlling it is fairly easy.

The "internet" issue would also be a side benefit if we were on LAN and needed "just" internet.  That can easily be controlled using VLANs and GRE tunnelling for guest access which dumps your "guest" data into a secure tunnel and dumps it outside of the firewalls demilitarized zone (DMZ).  That feature ships in the box of most basic Cisco small business Unified Communications solutions. 

Looks like "sneakernet" is going to be the way to go.   I must say it really makes us look odd to our customers that "want" to work with us that we have all of this gear and can't even get a basic CAC card..

A good way to stymie our relationship with the leadership of our customers at the top level and raises their eyebrows a little..... I get that feeling of "Thought you were Federal Corporation and DoD funded?  Why can't you get a CAC card... WE all have them..."

Something to think about..

[RiverAux]

Well here is by $.02.

We will never get CACs because:

1) too expensive to issue and adminster.
2) The majority of CAP units don't need them.

Don't think anyone is talking about that here.  Just talking about units that might have a legitimate need based on local circumstances.   

[badger bob]

I could see a limited number in the future of the general card when the feds go to a universal card for all agencies.
Examples the designated accountable officer that accesses the DRMO for turn-ins or withdrawls or the incident commander that has to connect to access additional fed resources for a mission. There is a pretty limited need for CAP access to the military network

Local general internet access is probably bestworked out on a one to one basis with the local armory commander.

[KyCAP]

In our wing the local armory commanders' request flow back to J-6 Commander at State EOC.   There is one "complete" WAN with centralized Network Admission Control enforced strictly.  We're either IN all the way or OUT.  I had new emails today starting to "rethink" how we're doing this.

[badger bob]

In some wings, it may be more appropriate to be on a *.gov state network (domain) rather then attempting to link to a *.mil network

[Tubacap]

In our wing the local armory commanders' request flow back to J-6 Commander at State EOC.   There is one "complete" WAN with centralized Network Admission Control enforced strictly.  We're either IN all the way or OUT.  I had new emails today starting to "rethink" how we're doing this.

What's your thought process?  I am in the same boat, and in fact where we hold have our computer access, there isn't a phone line so that makes it even harder.  I ran into the same boat with the guard, although I didn't try our SD.

[KyCAP]

All of the things are on the table at this point and I am starting with a clean slate trying to think through this with them for our other issue.

For your issue TubaCAP.   One solution might be to approach the Guard in your area and see if they will provision a device like a Cisco ATA-100.   This is a device that grabs an IP based phone trunk and then terminates it out as an analog port.    In network land this is called a FXS port.  That shouldn't be too hard for your J-6 guys to get their mind around.  This allows tight security for them and you at least get the ability to get 56K dial-out to the internet in the mean time.

The other solution is that your guys have to implement the Guest access VLAN.   That's an engineering task that has to be implemented and most places "are" because of the guests that they "don't want" on their LANs.    In today's environment just because your in the same copper wiring infrastructure doesn't mean that you're in the same LAN at the transport layers.

[MikeD]

I could see a limited number in the future of the general card when the feds go to a universal card for all agencies.
Examples the designated accountable officer that accesses the DRMO for turn-ins or withdrawls or the incident commander that has to connect to access additional fed resources for a mission. There is a pretty limited need for CAP access to the military network

Local general internet access is probably bestworked out on a one to one basis with the local armory commander.

Except that each agencies card will probably not be compatible with other agencies.  I know my work card and encryption system won't talk to DOD, even though the encryption is done using the same software.  It's all in how it gets set up.

[KyCAP]

The "Harmony" of which ye all speak of is commonly referred to as a Federated Database system that would allow each agencies security database models to trust one another and allow equal Credentials from USAF to allow access to the National Park Systems readers (for example).    We can't even get ubiquitous healthcare records into a Federated System....    I ain't holding my breath for that one..

[desertengineer1]

Hmm.  lot's of misconceptions floating around here on this one....

First,  Burger King employees are NOT issued CAC cards because they do not have access to the base NIPRNET.  Only military members, DoD employees, and contractors requiring access to base NIPRNET or DoD PKI encryption, as a function of thier duties, will be issued CAC cards - and it must be clearly marked in the contract and approved individually by the contracting officer.  CAC cards and the man hour cost of issuance highly exceeds the utility in this case.  They get a MAJCOM ID card only.

Second, CAP members can still be granted network access as login only, known as a "LIMITED" account - basic web access only - no email, or server drives.   You must have unit commander and Comm Squadron approval, and complete Information Assurance training like everyone else.  I arrange this for several key members at my CAP unit as an ANG member and it works well for briefings and real-time eservices needs.

Third - there are no more AF vehicle stickers.

Hope this helps.

Umm, no.  They will get a 387 card to get access to the base.  Only a DoD employee or contractor that requires network (or controlled area) access will get a CAC. 

_____________________________________________________

Funny, that the crack smoking kid working the burger king French fry fryer on an AF installation can get a CAC, but hard working, non paid patriots serving their communities State and Nation, can't get that benefit.   

Anyway...... here is a link     http://www.cac.mil/index.html

___________________________________________

Ya....I have seen AAFES employees walking around with CAC's.  Last time I checked, AAFES runs the BK's on post. 

[desertengineer1]

If you have the funding, you can pay for an indepenant phone line.  The base Comm Squadron might agree to give you a telephone pair into the building if you pay the phone company for the service (MOA).  After that, as long as you don't cause problems with any EMSEC or TEMPEST rules, you should be good to put a DSL modem with a wireless router in.  This is a pretty common thing for offices like family support or MWR.  As long as you're not accessing the NIPRNET, violating someone's classified zone (TEMPEST), and have someone's approval i.e. completely independant - it's not a problem.

All of the things are on the table at this point and I am starting with a clean slate trying to think through this with them for our other issue.

For your issue TubaCAP.   One solution might be to approach the Guard in your area and see if they will provision a device like a Cisco ATA-100.   This is a device that grabs an IP based phone trunk and then terminates it out as an analog port.    In network land this is called a FXS port.  That shouldn't be too hard for your J-6 guys to get their mind around.  This allows tight security for them and you at least get the ability to get 56K dial-out to the internet in the mean time.

The other solution is that your guys have to implement the Guest access VLAN.   That's an engineering task that has to be implemented and most places "are" because of the guests that they "don't want" on their LANs.    In today's environment just because your in the same copper wiring infrastructure doesn't mean that you're in the same LAN at the transport layers.

[mikeylikey]

First,  Burger King employees are NOT issued CAC cards because they do not have access to the base NIPRNET.

That is really strange.  I just today walked into the PX and the woman checking ID cards at the door had a CAC hanging from her pocket.  She is an AAFES employee.  The registers at the Exchange have a cac reader where the checker actually has to insert his or her card to get the register to work, and I assume to track shift hours.  They are AAFES employees.  Then I have seen the Manager of the AAFES Burger King wearing his CAC as well. 

Finally, those AAFES employees working the BK in Saudi Arabia have CAC's as well.  As does everyone else in country.  I have seen them with my own eyes. 

Not sure where you are at, or if you are AD, Guard, or Reserve......but in my AD travels over the past 8 years this has been the norm. 

The CAC is not just for accessing computer systems.  That is a relatively new idea.  It's primary purpose is for identification, privilege granting, and access.  It also seconds as the Geneva Conventions card.  Just like the cards before them were used for.   

[md132]

All AAFES employees overseas gets issues a CAC card.  For CONUS most used them for identification only.  Certain employees use them to out-process a Soldier/Marine/Airmen/Sailor when they are PCS/graduating.  Which PX did you see CAC reards at the registers.  We don't have that here in APG or Ft Meade.

[mikeylikey]

^ Both Knox and Leonard Wood. 

[PHall]

Were they really CAC's or just AAFES ID cards that have the same format?

Do they have the data chip in them?

Do they have the magnetic stripe?

[CadetProgramGuy]

Heck, when I did basic contracting work for the Army, I was issued a CAC card.

I never had access to a computer system the while time I was there.

[md132]

Yes they are CAC cards.  They have a data chips and magnetic strip.  Also we have a PIN number associated with it.  I only use it for work when I'm coming on base.  I don't have any reason to use is for internet access.  I have an AAFES LAN ID for that.  As well as a separate login for it.  Passwords are just as long and difficult as AKO/DKO/GKO.  I use it at home however to do my MDDF work or at my HQ to do my admin work. (We use CAC's to login the system.  No internet access.  Plus it's easier to carry then the old AAFES ID (Big tan card they used to issue 20 years ago.)  And easier to get through the gate.  Most DoD police don't know what the old ID's look like.

Civilian contractors working for a branch of the military are issued CAC's as well.  Some work at secure buildings some do not. 

[fireplug]

My Wing Hq is on an Air Force base. We use cellphone "air cards" for internet access.

[desertengineer1]

Umm.  AAFES employees in the BX are far removed from BK.  Again, if he/she requires NIPRNET access as part of their duties, they will be issued a CAC.  Not everybody gets them.

SWA is a much different story.  Everybody gets a CAC as a requirement of the base.  I think it's a CENTAF/CENTOM requirement.  I know it's per CENTAF.  (Had enough of those tours  )

First,  Burger King employees are NOT issued CAC cards because they do not have access to the base NIPRNET.

That is really strange.  I just today walked into the PX and the woman checking ID cards at the door had a CAC hanging from her pocket.  She is an AAFES employee.  The registers at the Exchange have a cac reader where the checker actually has to insert his or her card to get the register to work, and I assume to track shift hours.  They are AAFES employees.  Then I have seen the Manager of the AAFES Burger King wearing his CAC as well. 

Finally, those AAFES employees working the BK in Saudi Arabia have CAC's as well.  As does everyone else in country.  I have seen them with my own eyes. 

Not sure where you are at, or if you are AD, Guard, or Reserve......but in my AD travels over the past 8 years this has been the norm. 

The CAC is not just for accessing computer systems.  That is a relatively new idea.  It's primary purpose is for identification, privilege granting, and access.  It also seconds as the Geneva Conventions card.  Just like the cards before them were used for.   

[PhoenixRisen]

Were they really CAC's or just AAFES ID cards that have the same format?

The guys I see down here at the MCAS Miramar MCX have 'em.  They're the same CAC that the defense contractors that work with my dad have (my dad's a Navy Civilian, GS-13 type).

The one's that I know are contractor CAC's have a green stripe going down the right side of the card.



Same idea as the newer generation cards - but the stripe's thicker, and in a different postion (as described before).

[Tim Medeiros]

Third - there are no more AF vehicle stickers.

Umm, just to let you know, this must not have been implemented at all bases yet, I have a friend who just recently had to get a base sticker for her car she just bought.

[mikeylikey]

Third - there are no more AF vehicle stickers.

Umm, just to let you know, this must not have been implemented at all bases yet, I have a friend who just recently had to get a base sticker for her car she just bought.

.............And Air National Guard bases are still issuing them as well.  In actuality, the AF only stopped producing the little date sticker that goes along with the DOD Decal.  Without going to look at mine, I cant tell you what AF form it is, sorry.  Some Army/Marine/Naval Posts/bases/installations used the AF date sticker, but now have to manufacture and provide their own.  That is the only "cost saving" measure the AF is undertaking (not printing the date sticker) by stopping issue of the decals, as the DOD decal is produced by a contractor for the DOD to issue to all Services.   

[skymaster]

Now, as per an Executive Order signed two years ago, the "next generation" CAC and FED ID card, may be an option, if NHQ gets its act together and presents it correctly.  Especially with future missions for DHS and other FED agencies looming on the horizon.  We could easily get a CAC FED ID CARD that says "Civilian", and "Civil Air Patrol" in the department field.

Funny thing is, I heard a rumor that the AF actually brought the issue of the CAC to CAPNHQ, who turned it down.  My sources are from the CAP-USAF side, so I trust them greatly. 
[/quote]

Well, my sources in AETC elaborated on this a bit more.  The AF was more than willing to issue CAC cards to CAP members, and originally planned to implement such a thing.  What the Air Force had in mind, and what was presented to NHQ, was that the CAC card would in fact REPLACE the CAP ID card with a generic Air Force CAC card that would explicitly have had the individual members submit a "passport type" photo of the member in CIVILIAN clothes (no uniform), and ONLY the grade of "Civilian" on the card.  Some National Board members (at the time) countered with their own design that had a uniform photo and the member's CAP grade, in the colours of the old style CAP ID card.  AETC shot that down, and we ended up with the cards we have now.

[AngelWings]

Now, as per an Executive Order signed two years ago, the "next generation" CAC and FED ID card, may be an option, if NHQ gets its act together and presents it correctly.  Especially with future missions for DHS and other FED agencies looming on the horizon.  We could easily get a CAC FED ID CARD that says "Civilian", and "Civil Air Patrol" in the department field.

Funny thing is, I heard a rumor that the AF actually brought the issue of the CAC to CAPNHQ, who turned it down.  My sources are from the CAP-USAF side, so I trust them greatly. 

Well, my sources in AETC elaborated on this a bit more.  The AF was more than willing to issue CAC cards to CAP members, and originally planned to implement such a thing.  What the Air Force had in mind, and what was presented to NHQ, was that the CAC card would in fact REPLACE the CAP ID card with a generic Air Force CAC card that would explicitly have had the individual members submit a "passport type" photo of the member in CIVILIAN clothes (no uniform), and ONLY the grade of "Civilian" on the card.  Some National Board members (at the time) countered with their own design that had a uniform photo and the member's CAP grade, in the colours of the old style CAP ID card.  AETC shot that down, and we ended up with the cards we have now.
[/quote]
Why, leadership, why??? We could of actually had decent look ID cards and not get hassled when we need to go to on AFB's.

[RiverAux]

If that account is true, our leadership made a good call.  I'm normally a strong proponent of closer AF-CAP ties, but this was just as bad as having the people participating in the short-lived VSAF program not wearing CAP uniforms. 

[abdsp51]

First the decal is a DDForm 2220.

Second depending on branch and installation will determine the process for Non DoD personnel outside of retirees, dependents, contractors etc.  Most AAFES employees such as at BK, Popeyes etc have an AAFES ID card issued to allow them to work on base etc, or a local long term badge issued.

Third most AAFES employees overseas are TCNs and will not have a CAC issued to them but a badge issued indicating they are cleared to be on the yard on what days and for what hours.  This badge may look like a CAC but is in fact not a CAC.

Every installation commander dictates IAW established branch regs installation entry policy.  Not every base has an automated system, I can not speak for any other branch but every AF installation I have been on lately has still had the Mk 0 Mod 0 defender augmented by technology.  And anyone being issued a CAC in association with their duties has gone through a background check. 

[rmutchler]

Looking at the CAC website, I don't see why it would be an issue to use the Command Patch as the logo, put USAF-Civil Air Patrol as the agency, omit the pay grade, but keep the rank.

That should be good for both sides of the fence.

The only complication I see would revolve around renewals.  CAC replacing membership cards would require CAP to shift to a multi year renewal structure.  I highly doubt the DoD would want to do annual CAC issuance to CAP.

[PA Guy]

I just spent the last 3 days on an AFB that is home to a major command HQ.  Mult. trips in and out the gate manned by both civ. and sec. police.  Used my CAP ID card and no one batted an eye.  If the card works who cares what it looks like.  YMMV.

[PA Guy]

Looking at the CAC website, I don't see why it would be an issue to use the Command Patch as the logo, put USAF-Civil Air Patrol as the agency, omit the pay grade, but keep the rank.

That should be good for both sides of the fence.

The only complication I see would revolve around renewals.  CAC replacing membership cards would require CAP to shift to a multi year renewal structure.  I highly doubt the DoD would want to do annual CAC issuance to CAP.

People already complain about the cost of dues.  How much is having a CAC going to drive that up?  Who is going to pay for the background checks?
I had to have one to even get a VOLAC (Volunteer Acess Card, may not be used for ID purposes). for another service I do work for that requires network acess.

[abdsp51]

Obviously you have not seen a local FSS customer service section.  They are jam packed with plenty of people trying to get their ID cards replaced or renewed.  Most places require an appointment and two forms of ID and what is going to be the process for when one gets lost? And how are you going to retrieve it in the event a member is 2b'ed?  There is nothing wrong with the card we have now. 

[FlyTiger77]

I am still confused as to what the proposed CAP CAC would do that the current CAP ID card does not.

[PA Guy]

^^^^^
Nothing, they just look soooo kewl.

[PHall]

A CAC card costs the Air Force $8 each. And we have people are whing about the cost of our $4 card now...

[abdsp51]

So we add an additional estimated 500k for CAP to have CACs not to mention additional costs for members to travel to installation to have them made. 

[rjfoxx]

FWIW...

My CAP ID gets me onto Dover AFB and the Delaware ANG (DANG) base without the blink of an eye.  But the CAP ID will not get you past the gate at either Aberdeen PG (Army) or JB McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst.  However, I am told that JB McGuire...recognizes the NJWG members CAP ID.  I am able to access both bases, but I have to go through the Visitor Centers. The Vistor Centers recognize the card and will issue you a 24 hour pass to the bases.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

However, I am told that JB McGuire...recognizes the NJWG members CAP ID.

I wonder if that will change as the new CAPID has no unit / wing / region identification on it?

[AngelWings]

FWIW...

My CAP ID gets me onto Dover AFB and the Delaware ANG (DANG) base without the blink of an eye.  But the CAP ID will not get you past the gate at either Aberdeen PG (Army) or JB McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst.  However, I am told that JB McGuire...recognizes the NJWG members CAP ID.  I am able to access both bases, but I have to go through the Visitor Centers. The Vistor Centers recognize the card and will issue you a 24 hour pass to the bases.

One of the reasons a CAC would be helpful. I've had trouble getting onto Hanscom AFB before because their base issues stamps to those from the squadron. If it weren't for the fact that the vistor center guards realized we were just trying to get on base to go to the BX to buy uniform stuff already set aside, we would have been screwed. I think a CAC wouldn't cause problems like this, as they are recongized already and do not require specific information/stamps to identify we are really CAP members.

[SARDOC]

A Common Access Card is not necessary to access a military base.  Even Retired Military members and dependents don't get a CAC card.  I'm betting they have no trouble getting on a post.

Other emergency management agencies in order to comply with provisions of HSPD Twelve are creating Identification cards that are similiar in appearance to a CAC card.  A number of Government agencies issue a Personal Identification Verification (PIV) card to employees and contractors...It won't necessarily make it any easier for these people to get on a Military Base.

Instead of getting a different CAC like card why don't you just contact your State Director about using your current CAPID for authorized access to a facility for official purposes and you shouldn't have a problem.

[jimmydeanno]

Base access issues are not a problem of which ID card we have or what they look like; it is a relationship/understanding issue.  In the end, each installation commander gets to call the shots on who/when/where people are allowed to go or even whether they are allowed to enter the base.  A base commander could decide that military families, retirees, or even some of their own personnel (with CACs) could be denied entry.

If the installation commander has established access requirements/procedures for CAP members and it isn't really working, the fix is to get the state director/base liaison talking to work out the problem to a workable solution.  In the case of Hanscom, it's possible that when the procedures were made the conversation was "we have a CAP squadron on the base, give them stamps to get on" and didn't take into account that CAP members that weren't part of that unit might need/want to get onto the base.

[spacecommand]

4 pages for a rehashed 4 year old thread.

[Eclipse]

If it weren't for the fact that the vistor center guards realized we were just trying to get on base to go to the BX to buy uniform stuff already set aside, we would have been screwed. I think a CAC wouldn't cause problems like this, as they are recongized already and do not require specific information/stamps to identify we are really CAP members.

What you had is called a "conversation", and the problem was fixed.   A CAC would not have changed that.  There are thousands of uncredentialed civilians
with on-base business who are granted access to military facilities every day - family members, contractors, whatever.

Having a CAC would not really change anything, since it would say "CAP" on it somewhere, and the base commander would still be free to say "no" to those CAC's if he had a good reason to.

4 pages for a rehashed 4 year old thread.

Seriously.

[lordmonar]

4 pages for a rehashed 4 year old thread.

4 years old and the "new" information is erronious.

CAP is not getting a CAC type ID CARD.
CAP-USAF never offered CAP to get a CAC type card.
There is no need to get a CAC type card as the current CAP ID is just fine everywhere.