Dressing Down

[Cecil DP]

You work with a bunch of hemorrhoids

[♠SARKID♠]

Wait until the next big mission where CAP and your dept are involved, and show them up as best you can.  Key element - be modest about it, don't rub it in their faces.  Doing that says "we can do this too", not "we're better than you."  Find an opportunity to impress them.

[sarflyer]

Good one Dan!  :clap:

[DNall]

Something for everyone to understand

MABAS
Mutual Aid Box Alarm System

is an incredibly well organized mutual aid network which started in Illinois.  MABAS coordinates, and credentials emergency responders in a number of disciplines.  Including:

Fire Fighting
Tech Rescue
Haz-Mat

I can only imagine that CAP's independent attitude, and lack of NIMS compliancy has rubbed a few MABAS types the wrong way. 

I can only imagine how MABAS resources feel when CAP cant even meet the minimum requirements for mutual aid, and you often times hold yourself out as the "Federal" SAR asset. 

It also doesn't help that CAP would never pay the MABAS membership fees.

Is there any complaint that the AF isn't a member? Why would CAP associate in a local mutual aid system. We're not here for them & will not deploy on their authority. We're here to help the AF, to a lesser extent the rest of DoD (Army disaster response), to a lesser extent the rest of the fed govt (including FEMA & DHS), and to much lesser extent state govts when they are completely overpowered by the situation. We come in only after systems like mutual aid don't have the right resources or have failed to meet the need.

I'd also point out that FEMA/DHS liked this system that MABAS is running so well that they are in the process of making them obsolete. The whole NIMS process is meant to create such a federally controlled & funded system, including credentialing & mutual aid. Those standards are still under development. The compliance standards at this point are more about procedure & basic understanding. There is no set of reqs in force at this point that differentiate between capable rescuers & morons.

[wuzafuzz]

Some patient education, over time, might help.  If their perceptions are based on previous experiences, explain what they saw is no longer representative of CAP (hopefully).  Impress them with what you and your peers have accomplished, explain we are becoming NIMS compliant, etc., etc.

Alternately, let the matter die a quiet death.  Some public safety folks think they walk on water and have nothing but disdain for volunteers, reserves, or anyone they view as outsiders or wannabes.  You won't change their mind if that's where they are coming from.

If they insist on harassing you about it remember three words:  "Hostile working environment."  Professional HR people will stop in their tracks if you utter that phrase.  Proceed carefully though.

Just my two cents worth.  Good luck!

[isuhawkeye]

1.  I am encouraged (sarcasm) to see that CAP will never reflect upon truly blunt external input.  Heaven forbid you take a ctitical look at yourself

2.

I'd also point out that FEMA/DHS liked this system that MABAS is running so well that they are in the process of making them obsolete. The whole NIMS process is meant to create such a federally controlled & funded system, including credentialing & mutual aid. Those standards are still under development. The compliance standards at this point are more about procedure & basic understanding. There is no set of reqs in force at this point that differentiate between capable rescuers & morons.

MABAS has been the model from which Many Many mutual aid systems have been built.  FEMA has based many of their credentialing requirements on on the MABAS standards.

3.  MABAS overhead teams manage multi hazard incidents.  It is naive to think that a MABAS IC would not be in a position to request, and utilize CAP resources.

Just my $0.02

[DNall]

1.  I am encouraged (sarcasm) to see that CAP will never reflect upon truly blunt external input.  Heaven forbid you take a ctitical look at yourself

Are you serious? you know darn well most of the criticisms attributed to these co-workers are raised on a regular basis right here, including by me. Several people have mentioned these supposed co-workers being exceptionally well informed about aspects of CAP - almost like they're disgruntled former members or made up to point out to people here that there are both things CAP needs to address and a positive side to what we do/are/have accomplished/etc. I don't particularly care if that's the case or not.

In any case, there are literally dozens of threads on this forum discussing each of the issues mentioned in that conversation & advocating very hard for a number of very strong responses by CAP. There is very little else we can do to effect those changes. We are not the policy makers. All we can do is have a professional development peer conversation about the state of affairs and valid well thought out solutions, and hope policy makers choose to consider some of it. If you're looking for something more then that then you're dreaming.

2.  I'd also point out that FEMA/DHS liked this system that MABAS is running so well that they are in the process of making them obsolete. The whole NIMS process is meant to create such a federally controlled & funded system, including credentialing & mutual aid. Those standards are still under development. The compliance standards at this point are more about procedure & basic understanding. There is no set of reqs in force at this point that differentiate between capable rescuers & morons.

MABAS has been the model from which Many Many mutual aid systems have been built.  FEMA has based many of their credentialing requirements on on the MABAS standards.

3.  MABAS overhead teams manage multi hazard incidents.  It is naive to think that a MABAS IC would not be in a position to request, and utilize CAP resources.

Their IC, just like any county EOC, would be in position to ask the state EMA for resources, by name if they choose. If the state is incapable of providing those resources then it can ask the federal govt for help, and if CAP is the right specialized resource for that situation then by all means we'd deploy. If the state has the foresight to have an MOU in place, then they can work with the NOC directly.

I don't give a crap about MABAS. What CAP does is absolutely nothing like firefighters or most anything else involved in mutual aid. The traditional mutual aid system is not something we have a place in, nor should we. IF IF IF FEMA gets their crap together & pushes the NIMS system into full effect with credentialing & solid stable qual standards, then MABAS will cease to exist, and CAP will be fully compliant.

[isuhawkeye]

WOW

having jsut left a state wide SAR coordination meeting in which many many disciplines were represented discuessing standards, cridentials, and the requirments that are in place I must say I am floored by that post.

I will need to sit and digest this a little

[DNall]

Standing by. PM if you like.

[chiles]

May I also point out the back fill issue. When the fire and EMS departments participate in a search as part of their job, someone has to backfill their position to keep continuity of operations (good ol' COOP). CAP's response does not require a backfill. We're a force multiplier for search and rescue teams. We can do the heavy lifting (e.g. flying the planes, searching the swamps and forrests) while the professional HAZMAT and medical teams can continue their normal operations and intervene when their services are needed. We're all one big happy family.

Getting yelled at by your coworkers was unprofessional of them. Some people are simply like that. You can't do much to help it besides show that we are of some benefit to them and try to find out why it is they feel the way they do. I've met people who feel the same way in my current job. I've found that I can defuse the situation by asking them to sit down and tell me why it is they have the opinion and what we can do to make it better.

I'll be the first to tell you that this doesn't always work. Some people are angry just to be angry. It's up to you to decide whether or not the fight is worth it. As for the job issue, if someone is threatening your job because of your participation in CAP on your personal time, I'd have a discussion with HR about that. If they are just a couple of blowhards who don't have the authority to tell you to use the bathroom, then move on and save yourself some grief by changing at the squadron.

[DNall]

May I also point out the back fill issue. When the fire and EMS departments participate in a search as part of their job, someone has to backfill their position to keep continuity of operations (good ol' COOP). CAP's response does not require a backfill. We're a force multiplier for search and rescue teams. We can do the heavy lifting (e.g. flying the planes, searching the swamps and forrests) while the professional HAZMAT and medical teams can continue their normal operations and intervene when their services are needed. We're all one big happy family.

That's exactly right. Fire/EMS/LE are all highly specialized resources. They each have a primary mission, which isn't SaR, or more specifically isn't the search part of SaR. You don't burn a highly trained & valuable specialized resource on a secondary skill set at the cost of their primary mission.

It's not reasonable to believe I can staff every 4-6man GT with an EMT, certainly not one with the specialized skill set to work in the wilderness/terrain conditions. At least not without short staffing a lot of communities. And even if I could, it's hard to believe we could pack in the kind & amount of gear they'd really need to confront (by themselves) a multiple casualty event with massive injuries & no reasonable rapid extract. You need a freakin PJ for that, and even there'd be more than one of them, AND they'd need gear airlifted to the scene. I want that small team of medical professionals on standby back at base ready to be airlifted to the scene when we locate it.

What I can do is have one person on my team trained to a wilderness first responder kind of level, primarily so they can triage & advise base on what kind of medical assist we need. I believe that's what the current NIMS revision is calling for, and even that may be a little much. Advanced first aid all around, and a medic section per task force was/is a better strategy.

CAP is also a specialized resource. It isn't there to help everyone in every situation. It's also a federal resource. When local communities can't handle something, they call for help (mutual aid). When that's not enough then the state gets involved, when the state can't get it done, then they tap another level of mutual aid from other states, and have access to certain federal resources. That's where CAP comes into play. Either when they need the highly specialized capability, or when state/local resources are not enough.

We aren't a LE/EMS/Fire dept, and we aren't remotely masquerading as such. We're pretty good at what we do, though we have some serious limitations to deal with, but the cost of employing CAP resources makes it possible to accomplish a whole lot more.

[chiles]

CAP is also a specialized resource. It isn't there to help everyone in every situation. It's also a federal resource. When local communities can't handle something, they call for help (mutual aid). When that's not enough then the state gets involved, when the state can't get it done, then they tap another level of mutual aid from other states, and have access to certain federal resources. That's where CAP comes into play. Either when they need the highly specialized capability, or when state/local resources are not enough.

It's true that we are a Federal asset, but your comment early about State MOU/MOA's comes into play. We may be a Federal asset for SAR of downed aircraft, but if the state is giving funds directly to the Wing (as is the case in MD), then they are on the hook for whatever services the agreement states as part of receiving those funds. Something to keep in mind. We play a dual role and the state role is rather different depending on where you are and, most importantly, where the funds are coming from.

[RiverAux]

Given the long history of CAP and the probably hundreds of thousands of living current and former CAP members spread across the US I'm not surprised that quite a few people have had negative interactions and have formed a negative view of CAP.  However, there is some evidence (see the survey done by NHQ public affairs last year) that this is the exception rather than the rule.  Those who know about us, generally like us. 

In this particular case the best course of action is to just ignore the incident and go about your business.  However, if you're feeling froggy, go ahead and invite them to a meeting or SAREX and give them a view of what the situation is today. 

[DNall]

CAP is also a specialized resource. It isn't there to help everyone in every situation. It's also a federal resource. When local communities can't handle something, they call for help (mutual aid). When that's not enough then the state gets involved, when the state can't get it done, then they tap another level of mutual aid from other states, and have access to certain federal resources. That's where CAP comes into play. Either when they need the highly specialized capability, or when state/local resources are not enough.

It's true that we are a Federal asset, but your comment early about State MOU/MOA's comes into play. We may be a Federal asset for SAR of downed aircraft, but if the state is giving funds directly to the Wing (as is the case in MD), then they are on the hook for whatever services the agreement states as part of receiving those funds. Something to keep in mind. We play a dual role and the state role is rather different depending on where you are and, most importantly, where the funds are coming from.

Those MOU/MOAs are subject to AF approval when negotiated, and subject to veto on a mission by mission basis.

As I understand the current thinking, we're trying to move more to this NOC concept. In that case, the WG/CC increasingly loses authority to authorize missions for the state, as that passes to the national corp w/ direct AF oversight at the NOC.

That really is the best situation. One corporate officer should never be in position to put the whole org at risk, and wings are not independent little subsidiary corps that only answer to the national org in limited ways.

We've been trying to reign all this in for a while now, I think pretty successfully. The fact CAP is never a state controlled resource, regardless if they give them money or not, and that's always spelled out in the agreements, regardless of what laws the state wants to pass. I guarantee you the state of Texas can't pass a law stating the 4ID belongs to the state, send them a few bucks every year & then expect them to actually answer to the governor.

[RiverAux]

Dnall is right about us always being a federal asset and the AF is increasingly making this a major factor in whether or not they will approve AFAM status for missions conducted for states.  Personally, I think this is really hurting our relationship with the states though I understand the AF's point of view. 

Sorry for drift.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm glad I don't work for those cretins.

Once the discussion came down to who could shout f*** the loudest, my OCS training as an officer and a gentleman would give way to my original assignments as a fleet sailor and field corpsman.  Nobody can out-cuss me.

Second, I would take EVERY opportunity to point out that:

1.  I deployed (to Vietnam) while their silly butts were still smoking dope in high school and trying to score with a fat chick on prom night.

2.  In spite of their worthless opinions, I CAN wear the uniform of an officer of the United States, while their nozzle-knocking butts can just play with each other's hoses.  Can you say red suspenders, boys and girls?

3.  I really don't care about the bovine fecal opinions of some zero-days on active duty couch-dwelling foundation-saver.  Its a military thing.  You wouldn't understand.

But that's just me.

[DNall]

Dnall is right about us always being a federal asset and the AF is increasingly making this a major factor in whether or not they will approve AFAM status for missions conducted for states.  Personally, I think this is really hurting our relationship with the states though I understand the AF's point of view. 

I'm not sure if I'd say it's hurting our relationship w/ states. I'd say it the limits got pushed much to far under independent wing CC control & it needed to be seriously reigned in. I also think the AF extensively funds this massively expensive resource (albeit on the installment system) and they very obviously get to say what happens with it all the time. The fact is CAP couldn't do any mission for anyone if the mission weren't subsidized by AF funding of the org, training, & resources. That also makes them responsible to a degree.

[jb512]

Well...  I hate to say it, but unfortuately volunteer auxiliaries tend to attract some people who are less than favorable when compared to the real military.  Those "dorks" are usually the ones who bring the bad image on the rest of us and I can't really blame people for calling them out.  What happens is that they lump the rest of us in with them.

That's what we get for having such a lax approach on uniforms, pencil whipping, and the general cracker jack box system of promoting.

Flame on...

[DNall]

^ sure. We catch a lot of people rejected for military service or who never served. I'm okay with that in principle, but there's limits.

[davedove]

One thing they kept going back to was that we call ourselves "officers" when we arent commissioned or will never make a sacrifice and deploy.

This is one part of the argument I would have to take issue with.

I wouldn't debate the whole officers and commisioning part.  You could go back and forth on that one forever.

However, CAP members do deploy.  Granted, it's not overseas, but CAP has deployed to different parts of the US.

And the sacrifice part is wrong as well.  We all sacrifice something to be a part of CAP.  For most of us it's our time and not a small amount of our money.  But if I'm not mistaken, CAP members have been lost in the line of duty.