Dressing Down

[SAR-EMT1]

I had the rather unplesant experience of being chewed a new anal orifice this week by  coworkers who until this incident had been decent and respectful to me.

--

I was running late for a CAP meeting and decided to change into my uniform at work after shift change.

One is a 40 something year old, overweight guy who (that I know of) never served, he is however highly involved in IMERT and MABIS and is a Chief in a vollunteer FD The other is current Army Guard and has deployed.

Basically they saw the uniform, started hounding me, calling me everything from a wannabe to a F-ing discredit to everyone who has "earned the uniform"
Then after I recovered from my shock and asked what was up I got an earful.

One thing they kept going back to was that we call ourselves "officers" when we arent commissioned or will never make a sacrifice and deploy.
Also, how since we arent NIMS compliant we have no respect with any fire dept worth a crap... etc. Then they started into the cadet program calling us boy scouts with planes and that the money sunk into CAP ES by USAF to train cadet GTMs should be diverted into MABIS ....
That any FD or PD could DF an ELT.
That the USAF shows its unprofessionalism by sponsoring such F*ups as us who, after taking a f*ing mail order class "think" we have what it takes to do something helpful at a disaster or know what it takes to manage others.

it was a bunch of crap on one hand, I was shocked, distressed and angered to be attacked for being in CAP.

On the other hand what they said about the Ops side of the house, how CAP ES will never be used by any Incident Commander, how much better MABIS resources are better then any Squadron, etc... made me wonder how we are truely looked at by the Emergency Services Community nationwide.

Finally one went so far as to say that if I wanted to keep my job, I'd better keep the "costume" and the rest of my crap as far away from the station as possible.
..............

Their whole justification ranged from seeing a jr high aged color guard in a parade to attending a SAREX to being given a check ride in a 182

Thoughts?

[JoeTomasone]

Well, I'd be mouthing off how anyone who can spell "Red Cross" can perform first aid and anyone with two hands can operate a fire extinguisher to show them how stupid their comments are.    But that's just me.

Seriously, if they are that far removed from reality, not much will bring them back.   

[ColonelJack]

Sounds like you work with a bunch of jerks to me.

Jack

[sarflyer]

I really am apauled by their words.  Who do they think they are!?  And to threaten you with your job sounds like a labor complaint to me.

CAP does so much more than ES and the ES services we provide no one else can at our cost.  That's really to bad that they are so narrow minded.  Obviously they don't play well with others. 

As a 33 year member both cadet and senior I am truely offended!

[Gunner C]

You might want to mention that harrassment on the job isn't welcome.  The buzz word might shake them into reality.

GC

[isuhawkeye]

It sounds like these guys have some first hand experience with CAP.

To be that passionate about a subject means that they have been burned in the past. 

They certainly were not professional about their comments, but I know several folks who have the same opinion about CAP

[Pylon]

It sounds like these guys have some first hand experience with CAP.

To be that passionate about a subject means that they have been burned in the past. 

They certainly were not professional about their comments, but I know several folks who have the same opinion about CAP

While the original persons were likely over-the-line with the way they presented their opinions to you, one has to wonder what gave them a negative impression of CAP in the first place.  Does the organization exude such an image amongst ES/SAR/HLS/etc. professionals?

[O-Rex]

It sounds like these guys have some first hand experience with CAP.

To be that passionate about a subject means that they have been burned in the past. 

Agreed: they seemed just a tad-bit bit too well-informed about CAP: I'd be interested to know what their experience was: I sense possible sour grapes somewhere in the mix.

Exactly who and how did they attend a SAREX or get a checkride in a 182?

As for your doubts on the Operations side: How many volunteer organizations do what we do, on the scale that we do it?  We are not first-responders, and (hopefully) don't present ourselves as such.  Last time I checked, neither FD's or PD's chased ELTs.

People are entitled to their opinions: not everyone is going to be a fan.  Remember that once upon a time, people used to spit on servicemembers coming home from war.

Pardon my being blunt, but I guess what's really disturbing is that your colleagues seem to lack the respect for you as an individual to speak to you in that manner (particularly the 'if you want to keep your job' issue,) regardless of subject, or what you are wearing.   

It's one thing to dislike CAP, it's another to attack an individual: sounds like they did both.

Personal issues aside, this is a case-in-point to be mindful of how we conduct ourselves: once in a while I get some bomb dropped on my lap about a member dressing down an SP at the gate of an AFB for not saluting, demanding privileges they are not entitled to, or some other stupid situation: those things fuel the fire for those who think less-than-highly of CAP 

[isuhawkeye]

Something for everyone to understand

MABAS
Mutual Aid Box Alarm System

is an incredibly well organized mutual aid network which started in Illinois.  MABAS coordinates, and credentials emergency responders in a number of disciplines.  Including:

Fire Fighting
Tech Rescue
Haz-Mat

I can only imagine that CAP's independent attitude, and lack of NIMS compliancy has rubbed a few MABAS types the wrong way. 

I can only imagine how MABAS resources feel when CAP cant even meet the minimum requirements for mutual aid, and you often times hold yourself out as the "Federal" SAR asset. 

It also doesn't help that CAP would never pay the MABAS membership fees.

[O-Rex]

Something for everyone to understand

MABAS
Mutual Aid Box Alarm System

is an incredibly well organized mutual aid network which started in Illinois.  MABAS coordinates, and credentials emergency responders in a number of disciplines.  Including:

Fire Fighting
Tech Rescue
Haz-Mat

None of these things are within our capabilities anyway. . . . .

[SDF_Specialist]

Well that is truely offending if you ask me. CAP members work hard for their qualifications. We spend our time to train. We're the ones who hear about it from the USAF. If you ask me, I'd rather work with a few good CAP members one a SAR rather than a few FD members who are only worried about OT (I know not all FD or PD members are like this, but there are a few out there. I know'em!).

[O-Rex]

Well that is truely offending if you ask me. CAP members work hard for their qualifications. We spend our time to train. We're the ones who hear about it from the USAF. If you ask me, I'd rather work with a few good CAP members one a SAR rather than a few FD members who are only worried about OT (I know not all FD or PD members are like this, but there are a few out there. I know'em!).

Ryan,

Working hard for quals is a relative statement: some work harder than others, and I've seen folks with credentials on paper that just didn't have them in practice, but there's some of that in any organization.

I think the focus here is not to bash a profession or group because a couple of folks have an axe to grind, but to put our best foot forward to minimize the slings & arrows hurled by others.

People are entitled to their opnions, and free to express them.  Hopefully they do so without encroaching on the rights of others, or being offensive.  If the account that SAR-EMT1 is accurate, then while his collegues are questioning our organization, I question their own professionalism and conduct as gentlemen, and would take it all with a grain of salt.  Then again, I can afford to because I don't work with them.

I wish SAR-EMT1 the best of luck, as I think he has some issues to address with them on an interpersonal level.

[Sleepwalker]

I work with many ex-service members and have had one guy tape "Cap'n Crunch" over my nametape (I laughed about it as you probably might have reading this post). and another guy questioning my credials to be called "Captain" because (as a Squadron Commander) all I really am is a glorified "baby sitter".  Well, I just laugh these guys off, because the root of their problem is jealousy.  They have no idea what my job really is, or how much time and sweat I put into my CAP job (with no pay!).  Don't take ignorant boneheads too seriously.
         

[SDF_Specialist]

Well that is truly offending if you ask me. CAP members work hard for their qualifications. We spend our time to train. We're the ones who hear about it from the USAF. If you ask me, I'd rather work with a few good CAP members one a SAR rather than a few FD members who are only worried about OT (I know not all FD or PD members are like this, but there are a few out there. I know'em!).

Ryan,

Working hard for quals is a relative statement: some work harder than others, and I've seen folks with credentials on paper that just didn't have them in practice, but there's some of that in any organization.

I think the focus here is not to bash a profession or group because a couple of folks have an axe to grind, but to put our best foot forward to minimize the slings & arrows hurled by others.

People are entitled to their opinions, and free to express them.  Hopefully they do so without encroaching on the rights of others, or being offensive.  If the account that SAR-EMT1 is accurate, then while his colleagues are questioning our organization, I question their own professionalism and conduct as gentlemen, and would take it all with a grain of salt.  Then again, I can afford to because I don't work with them.

I wish SAR-EMT1 the best of luck, as I think he has some issues to address with them on an interpersonal level.

Rex, I completely agree and understand what you are talking about. I want you, and all to know that I am not bashing our proud members of all Fire and Police departments. I am simply referring to those who bash others, but fail to look at themselves, and really ask themselves what they've accomplished. The people that SAR-EMT1 mentioned are the kind of people that I was referring to in my initial post. I apologize if you, or anyone else took offense to my initial post, but I personally cannot stand folks who want to call us wannabes, and tell us we do not deserve to wear the uniform because we did not earn it. I've earned the right to wear it, I'm positive that you, and everyone else here on CAPTalk has earned it. I hope that SAR-EMT1 does address these issues because they were offensive. Being directed to him personally would make it worse. I've had my run-ins with people like those that SAR-EMT1 dealt with. I politely tell them thank you, and I am sorry that they don't see the good in CAP.

[Duke Dillio]

You should give us their home addresses so we can camp outside their houses en masse for a couple of weeks.  Generally, people like this aren't worth the effort though.  And no offense to the guys there.  I'm sure they used to be nice but I would have taken both of them out back and "altered their attitudes."  That's just me though.

Just blow it off.  They aren't worth your time or effort.  If you continue to have problems with them, send me the word and I'll fly out there and dress them down for you.

[flyerthom]

It sounds like these guys have some first hand experience with CAP.

To be that passionate about a subject means that they have been burned in the past. 

They certainly were not professional about their comments, but I know several folks who have the same opinion about CAP

While the original persons were likely over-the-line with the way they presented their opinions to you, one has to wonder what gave them a negative impression of CAP in the first place.  Does the organization exude such an image amongst ES/SAR/HLS/etc. professionals?

When I was doing EMS in PA I had a few really poor interactions with a local CAP squadron. They were ah less than impressive on a few operations and, in my personal experience, downright dangerous on one.  They had a strong connection to two local volunteer SAR group that recruited people who were non hackers at the EMS and FD volunteer squads. One SAR (not CAP) leader had a conviction for recreational pharmaceutical  distribution. They had a lot of bling on their jump suits though. They were very much the root of the local ES culture  that viewed: the more patches and pins = the bigger the idiot.

Fortunately I worked with sarmed1 and learned more about CAP. If I went by the impressions I got from that first group of people I'd probably not be in CAP. 

Getting back to the bling comment, I've noticed in EMS and FD's here in NV and AZ there seems to be a very similar attitude i.e  Bling is inversely proportionate to competence.   I have to wonder if that is the one of the roots of the issue.

One is a 40 something year old, overweight guy who (that I know of) never served, he is however highly involved in IMERT and MABIS and is a Chief in a vollunteer FD

(Ever try and type something with the cat on the keyboard?) I've worked with than one of these individuals who were also less than impressive. The best counter is to try and recruit him.

[Gunner C]

Just blow it off.  They aren't worth your time or effort.  If you continue to have problems with them, send me the word and I'll fly out there and dress them down for you.

Heck, I'll go with you.  Being a retired Green Beret, I can swear in three languages (four if I practice).  I can still swell up on someone  - these guys are just punks.  Unfortunately, we have to live with them.

GC

[O-Rex]

Well that is truly offending if you ask me. CAP members work hard for their qualifications. We spend our time to train. We're the ones who hear about it from the USAF. If you ask me, I'd rather work with a few good CAP members one a SAR rather than a few FD members who are only worried about OT (I know not all FD or PD members are like this, but there are a few out there. I know'em!).

Ryan,

Working hard for quals is a relative statement: some work harder than others, and I've seen folks with credentials on paper that just didn't have them in practice, but there's some of that in any organization.

I think the focus here is not to bash a profession or group because a couple of folks have an axe to grind, but to put our best foot forward to minimize the slings & arrows hurled by others.

People are entitled to their opinions, and free to express them.  Hopefully they do so without encroaching on the rights of others, or being offensive.  If the account that SAR-EMT1 is accurate, then while his colleagues are questioning our organization, I question their own professionalism and conduct as gentlemen, and would take it all with a grain of salt.  Then again, I can afford to because I don't work with them.

I wish SAR-EMT1 the best of luck, as I think he has some issues to address with them on an interpersonal level.

Rex, I completely agree and understand what you are talking about. I want you, and all to know that I am not bashing our proud members of all Fire and Police departments. I am simply referring to those who bash others, but fail to look at themselves, and really ask themselves what they've accomplished. The people that SAR-EMT1 mentioned are the kind of people that I was referring to in my initial post. I apologize if you, or anyone else took offense to my initial post, but I personally cannot stand folks who want to call us wannabes, and tell us we do not deserve to wear the uniform because we did not earn it. I've earned the right to wear it, I'm positive that you, and everyone else here on CAPTalk has earned it. I hope that SAR-EMT1 does address these issues because they were offensive. Being directed to him personally would make it worse. I've had my run-ins with people like those that SAR-EMT1 dealt with. I politely tell them thank you, and I am sorry that they don't see the good in CAP.

I take no offense: I'm neither a firefighter nor a police officer.

Like SARGRUNT, my first reaction to the scenario was shall we say....'visceral.'

But we're better than that, so like you said, the standard answer is "Gee, I'm sorry you feel that way."  As for what I'm actually thinking, I won't describe, lest the moderators start jingling their keys. 

For every detractor, I've met a dozen folks who are enthusiastic and supportive about what we do.

[Duke Dillio]

Just blow it off.  They aren't worth your time or effort.  If you continue to have problems with them, send me the word and I'll fly out there and dress them down for you.

Heck, I'll go with you.  Being a retired Green Beret, I can swear in three languages (four if I practice).  I can still swell up on someone  - these guys are just punks.  Unfortunately, we have to live with them.

GC

Maybe I can talk the guys on AP.org into letting us borrow their short bus.  The midgets can come too.

[O-Rex]

recreational pharmaceutical  distribution

That made my day!

[Cecil DP]

You work with a bunch of hemorrhoids

[♠SARKID♠]

Wait until the next big mission where CAP and your dept are involved, and show them up as best you can.  Key element - be modest about it, don't rub it in their faces.  Doing that says "we can do this too", not "we're better than you."  Find an opportunity to impress them.

[sarflyer]

Good one Dan!  :clap:

[DNall]

Something for everyone to understand

MABAS
Mutual Aid Box Alarm System

is an incredibly well organized mutual aid network which started in Illinois.  MABAS coordinates, and credentials emergency responders in a number of disciplines.  Including:

Fire Fighting
Tech Rescue
Haz-Mat

I can only imagine that CAP's independent attitude, and lack of NIMS compliancy has rubbed a few MABAS types the wrong way. 

I can only imagine how MABAS resources feel when CAP cant even meet the minimum requirements for mutual aid, and you often times hold yourself out as the "Federal" SAR asset. 

It also doesn't help that CAP would never pay the MABAS membership fees.

Is there any complaint that the AF isn't a member? Why would CAP associate in a local mutual aid system. We're not here for them & will not deploy on their authority. We're here to help the AF, to a lesser extent the rest of DoD (Army disaster response), to a lesser extent the rest of the fed govt (including FEMA & DHS), and to much lesser extent state govts when they are completely overpowered by the situation. We come in only after systems like mutual aid don't have the right resources or have failed to meet the need.

I'd also point out that FEMA/DHS liked this system that MABAS is running so well that they are in the process of making them obsolete. The whole NIMS process is meant to create such a federally controlled & funded system, including credentialing & mutual aid. Those standards are still under development. The compliance standards at this point are more about procedure & basic understanding. There is no set of reqs in force at this point that differentiate between capable rescuers & morons.

[wuzafuzz]

Some patient education, over time, might help.  If their perceptions are based on previous experiences, explain what they saw is no longer representative of CAP (hopefully).  Impress them with what you and your peers have accomplished, explain we are becoming NIMS compliant, etc., etc.

Alternately, let the matter die a quiet death.  Some public safety folks think they walk on water and have nothing but disdain for volunteers, reserves, or anyone they view as outsiders or wannabes.  You won't change their mind if that's where they are coming from.

If they insist on harassing you about it remember three words:  "Hostile working environment."  Professional HR people will stop in their tracks if you utter that phrase.  Proceed carefully though.

Just my two cents worth.  Good luck!

[isuhawkeye]

1.  I am encouraged (sarcasm) to see that CAP will never reflect upon truly blunt external input.  Heaven forbid you take a ctitical look at yourself

2.

I'd also point out that FEMA/DHS liked this system that MABAS is running so well that they are in the process of making them obsolete. The whole NIMS process is meant to create such a federally controlled & funded system, including credentialing & mutual aid. Those standards are still under development. The compliance standards at this point are more about procedure & basic understanding. There is no set of reqs in force at this point that differentiate between capable rescuers & morons.

MABAS has been the model from which Many Many mutual aid systems have been built.  FEMA has based many of their credentialing requirements on on the MABAS standards.

3.  MABAS overhead teams manage multi hazard incidents.  It is naive to think that a MABAS IC would not be in a position to request, and utilize CAP resources.

Just my $0.02

[DNall]

1.  I am encouraged (sarcasm) to see that CAP will never reflect upon truly blunt external input.  Heaven forbid you take a ctitical look at yourself

Are you serious? you know darn well most of the criticisms attributed to these co-workers are raised on a regular basis right here, including by me. Several people have mentioned these supposed co-workers being exceptionally well informed about aspects of CAP - almost like they're disgruntled former members or made up to point out to people here that there are both things CAP needs to address and a positive side to what we do/are/have accomplished/etc. I don't particularly care if that's the case or not.

In any case, there are literally dozens of threads on this forum discussing each of the issues mentioned in that conversation & advocating very hard for a number of very strong responses by CAP. There is very little else we can do to effect those changes. We are not the policy makers. All we can do is have a professional development peer conversation about the state of affairs and valid well thought out solutions, and hope policy makers choose to consider some of it. If you're looking for something more then that then you're dreaming.

2.  I'd also point out that FEMA/DHS liked this system that MABAS is running so well that they are in the process of making them obsolete. The whole NIMS process is meant to create such a federally controlled & funded system, including credentialing & mutual aid. Those standards are still under development. The compliance standards at this point are more about procedure & basic understanding. There is no set of reqs in force at this point that differentiate between capable rescuers & morons.

MABAS has been the model from which Many Many mutual aid systems have been built.  FEMA has based many of their credentialing requirements on on the MABAS standards.

3.  MABAS overhead teams manage multi hazard incidents.  It is naive to think that a MABAS IC would not be in a position to request, and utilize CAP resources.

Their IC, just like any county EOC, would be in position to ask the state EMA for resources, by name if they choose. If the state is incapable of providing those resources then it can ask the federal govt for help, and if CAP is the right specialized resource for that situation then by all means we'd deploy. If the state has the foresight to have an MOU in place, then they can work with the NOC directly.

I don't give a crap about MABAS. What CAP does is absolutely nothing like firefighters or most anything else involved in mutual aid. The traditional mutual aid system is not something we have a place in, nor should we. IF IF IF FEMA gets their crap together & pushes the NIMS system into full effect with credentialing & solid stable qual standards, then MABAS will cease to exist, and CAP will be fully compliant.

[isuhawkeye]

WOW

having jsut left a state wide SAR coordination meeting in which many many disciplines were represented discuessing standards, cridentials, and the requirments that are in place I must say I am floored by that post.

I will need to sit and digest this a little

[DNall]

Standing by. PM if you like.

[chiles]

May I also point out the back fill issue. When the fire and EMS departments participate in a search as part of their job, someone has to backfill their position to keep continuity of operations (good ol' COOP). CAP's response does not require a backfill. We're a force multiplier for search and rescue teams. We can do the heavy lifting (e.g. flying the planes, searching the swamps and forrests) while the professional HAZMAT and medical teams can continue their normal operations and intervene when their services are needed. We're all one big happy family.

Getting yelled at by your coworkers was unprofessional of them. Some people are simply like that. You can't do much to help it besides show that we are of some benefit to them and try to find out why it is they feel the way they do. I've met people who feel the same way in my current job. I've found that I can defuse the situation by asking them to sit down and tell me why it is they have the opinion and what we can do to make it better.

I'll be the first to tell you that this doesn't always work. Some people are angry just to be angry. It's up to you to decide whether or not the fight is worth it. As for the job issue, if someone is threatening your job because of your participation in CAP on your personal time, I'd have a discussion with HR about that. If they are just a couple of blowhards who don't have the authority to tell you to use the bathroom, then move on and save yourself some grief by changing at the squadron.

[DNall]

May I also point out the back fill issue. When the fire and EMS departments participate in a search as part of their job, someone has to backfill their position to keep continuity of operations (good ol' COOP). CAP's response does not require a backfill. We're a force multiplier for search and rescue teams. We can do the heavy lifting (e.g. flying the planes, searching the swamps and forrests) while the professional HAZMAT and medical teams can continue their normal operations and intervene when their services are needed. We're all one big happy family.

That's exactly right. Fire/EMS/LE are all highly specialized resources. They each have a primary mission, which isn't SaR, or more specifically isn't the search part of SaR. You don't burn a highly trained & valuable specialized resource on a secondary skill set at the cost of their primary mission.

It's not reasonable to believe I can staff every 4-6man GT with an EMT, certainly not one with the specialized skill set to work in the wilderness/terrain conditions. At least not without short staffing a lot of communities. And even if I could, it's hard to believe we could pack in the kind & amount of gear they'd really need to confront (by themselves) a multiple casualty event with massive injuries & no reasonable rapid extract. You need a freakin PJ for that, and even there'd be more than one of them, AND they'd need gear airlifted to the scene. I want that small team of medical professionals on standby back at base ready to be airlifted to the scene when we locate it.

What I can do is have one person on my team trained to a wilderness first responder kind of level, primarily so they can triage & advise base on what kind of medical assist we need. I believe that's what the current NIMS revision is calling for, and even that may be a little much. Advanced first aid all around, and a medic section per task force was/is a better strategy.

CAP is also a specialized resource. It isn't there to help everyone in every situation. It's also a federal resource. When local communities can't handle something, they call for help (mutual aid). When that's not enough then the state gets involved, when the state can't get it done, then they tap another level of mutual aid from other states, and have access to certain federal resources. That's where CAP comes into play. Either when they need the highly specialized capability, or when state/local resources are not enough.

We aren't a LE/EMS/Fire dept, and we aren't remotely masquerading as such. We're pretty good at what we do, though we have some serious limitations to deal with, but the cost of employing CAP resources makes it possible to accomplish a whole lot more.

[chiles]

CAP is also a specialized resource. It isn't there to help everyone in every situation. It's also a federal resource. When local communities can't handle something, they call for help (mutual aid). When that's not enough then the state gets involved, when the state can't get it done, then they tap another level of mutual aid from other states, and have access to certain federal resources. That's where CAP comes into play. Either when they need the highly specialized capability, or when state/local resources are not enough.

It's true that we are a Federal asset, but your comment early about State MOU/MOA's comes into play. We may be a Federal asset for SAR of downed aircraft, but if the state is giving funds directly to the Wing (as is the case in MD), then they are on the hook for whatever services the agreement states as part of receiving those funds. Something to keep in mind. We play a dual role and the state role is rather different depending on where you are and, most importantly, where the funds are coming from.

[RiverAux]

Given the long history of CAP and the probably hundreds of thousands of living current and former CAP members spread across the US I'm not surprised that quite a few people have had negative interactions and have formed a negative view of CAP.  However, there is some evidence (see the survey done by NHQ public affairs last year) that this is the exception rather than the rule.  Those who know about us, generally like us. 

In this particular case the best course of action is to just ignore the incident and go about your business.  However, if you're feeling froggy, go ahead and invite them to a meeting or SAREX and give them a view of what the situation is today. 

[DNall]

CAP is also a specialized resource. It isn't there to help everyone in every situation. It's also a federal resource. When local communities can't handle something, they call for help (mutual aid). When that's not enough then the state gets involved, when the state can't get it done, then they tap another level of mutual aid from other states, and have access to certain federal resources. That's where CAP comes into play. Either when they need the highly specialized capability, or when state/local resources are not enough.

It's true that we are a Federal asset, but your comment early about State MOU/MOA's comes into play. We may be a Federal asset for SAR of downed aircraft, but if the state is giving funds directly to the Wing (as is the case in MD), then they are on the hook for whatever services the agreement states as part of receiving those funds. Something to keep in mind. We play a dual role and the state role is rather different depending on where you are and, most importantly, where the funds are coming from.

Those MOU/MOAs are subject to AF approval when negotiated, and subject to veto on a mission by mission basis.

As I understand the current thinking, we're trying to move more to this NOC concept. In that case, the WG/CC increasingly loses authority to authorize missions for the state, as that passes to the national corp w/ direct AF oversight at the NOC.

That really is the best situation. One corporate officer should never be in position to put the whole org at risk, and wings are not independent little subsidiary corps that only answer to the national org in limited ways.

We've been trying to reign all this in for a while now, I think pretty successfully. The fact CAP is never a state controlled resource, regardless if they give them money or not, and that's always spelled out in the agreements, regardless of what laws the state wants to pass. I guarantee you the state of Texas can't pass a law stating the 4ID belongs to the state, send them a few bucks every year & then expect them to actually answer to the governor.

[RiverAux]

Dnall is right about us always being a federal asset and the AF is increasingly making this a major factor in whether or not they will approve AFAM status for missions conducted for states.  Personally, I think this is really hurting our relationship with the states though I understand the AF's point of view. 

Sorry for drift.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm glad I don't work for those cretins.

Once the discussion came down to who could shout f*** the loudest, my OCS training as an officer and a gentleman would give way to my original assignments as a fleet sailor and field corpsman.  Nobody can out-cuss me.

Second, I would take EVERY opportunity to point out that:

1.  I deployed (to Vietnam) while their silly butts were still smoking dope in high school and trying to score with a fat chick on prom night.

2.  In spite of their worthless opinions, I CAN wear the uniform of an officer of the United States, while their nozzle-knocking butts can just play with each other's hoses.  Can you say red suspenders, boys and girls?

3.  I really don't care about the bovine fecal opinions of some zero-days on active duty couch-dwelling foundation-saver.  Its a military thing.  You wouldn't understand.

But that's just me.

[DNall]

Dnall is right about us always being a federal asset and the AF is increasingly making this a major factor in whether or not they will approve AFAM status for missions conducted for states.  Personally, I think this is really hurting our relationship with the states though I understand the AF's point of view. 

I'm not sure if I'd say it's hurting our relationship w/ states. I'd say it the limits got pushed much to far under independent wing CC control & it needed to be seriously reigned in. I also think the AF extensively funds this massively expensive resource (albeit on the installment system) and they very obviously get to say what happens with it all the time. The fact is CAP couldn't do any mission for anyone if the mission weren't subsidized by AF funding of the org, training, & resources. That also makes them responsible to a degree.

[jb512]

Well...  I hate to say it, but unfortuately volunteer auxiliaries tend to attract some people who are less than favorable when compared to the real military.  Those "dorks" are usually the ones who bring the bad image on the rest of us and I can't really blame people for calling them out.  What happens is that they lump the rest of us in with them.

That's what we get for having such a lax approach on uniforms, pencil whipping, and the general cracker jack box system of promoting.

Flame on...

[DNall]

^ sure. We catch a lot of people rejected for military service or who never served. I'm okay with that in principle, but there's limits.

[davedove]

One thing they kept going back to was that we call ourselves "officers" when we arent commissioned or will never make a sacrifice and deploy.

This is one part of the argument I would have to take issue with.

I wouldn't debate the whole officers and commisioning part.  You could go back and forth on that one forever.

However, CAP members do deploy.  Granted, it's not overseas, but CAP has deployed to different parts of the US.

And the sacrifice part is wrong as well.  We all sacrifice something to be a part of CAP.  For most of us it's our time and not a small amount of our money.  But if I'm not mistaken, CAP members have been lost in the line of duty.

[Stonewall]

However, CAP members do deploy.  Granted, it's not overseas, but CAP has deployed to different parts of the US.

And the sacrifice part is wrong as well.  We all sacrifice something to be a part of CAP.  For most of us it's our time and not a small amount of our money.  But if I'm not mistaken, CAP members have been lost in the line of duty.

See, to me, I wouldn't say "we deploy" per se.  I'd say, if we're available, we can get into our POV or corporately owned van and drive to the location on our own and see what we can get into.  It's not like you don't have a choice in the matter.  It may be luck of the draw if  you get that call at 0200 and they say "grab your team and start driving down to South Carolina, a major hurricane just hit and we need your team".  Granted, there are some units out there that may have enough people that CAN go to call a "team".  But to say "we deploy" just doesn't jive with me.

In the military, you deploy and don't have an option.  Really, all you do is just show up to your unit and start the assembly line process.  Next thing you know, you're listening to your iPod on a military or commercial plane en route to Whereeverstan and IT IS NOT AN OPTION.

As a CAP member, even an IC, you have zero obligation to go.  I'll tell you this, my employer would laugh over the phone if I told him I was headed up to South Carolina with CAP to help with a hurricane.

Just saying, I wouldn't argue that we're all that and a biggie sized side of fries.  A useful tool in the toolbox, no doubt.  Performing missions for America, absolutely.  But I wouldn't use the word "deploy" within military circles because it may lead someone to believe we're being ordered versus asked to go somewhere to help.  YMMV.

[DNall]

^ regarding that. 95%+ of all adult members would give up their choice in the matter if given solid job protection in line with guard/reserve. More so if you pay per diem to help offset (at least in part) lost wages.

The issue with deploying is a year away from home/family/good beer/baseball games/hot girls is just real sucky. CAP doesn't do that kind of thing. But then neither does that NPS fire/EMS dude.

[Stonewall]

^ regarding that. 95%+ of all adult members would give up their choice in the matter if given solid job protection in line with guard/reserve. More so if you pay per diem to help offset (at least in part) lost wages.

Well yeah, that would be like winning the lottery.  Getting to do what you love, plus not having to worry about your job AND get per diem.  But I work for the federal government and have found that they are the worst when it comes to dealing with employees who are in the National Guard/Reserves like myself.  I couldn't imagine trying to tell them that I must go somewhere for CAP without competent orders directing me to do so. 

I got called up last year for 6 weeks.  By "called up", I was told to be there in 2 days via VERBAL ORDER.  My employer harrassed me each and every day saying I was "absent" and using annual leave then sick leave until I produced written orders.  Took me two weeks and a huge hassle.

[Duke Dillio]

^This may be rumor, but I doubt it since I got an email from the CO WG commander.  Colorado just passed a law which provides for job security for CAP members on actual missions.  Can't quote it, I just know it's there.  I think there are a few other states that have the same deal.  Iowa seems to jump at me right off the top of my head.  Start callin your congress people, give them lots of money, and make it happen.  Oh yeah...

[LittleIronPilot]

I know that MILITARY officers are commissioned, but ask them if THEIR officers are.

I was a Police OFFICER, I know Fire OFFICERS, hell there are OFFICERS of the Board!

OFFICER is not unique to the military and since we are NOT the Real Military (RM), we can certainly call ourselves OFFICERS without a commission just like they can in the Fire Dept. Or ask them if their fire house Captain is not a real officer since he is not commissioned. *



*If getting paid lets you be an "officer" I would certainly say that giving of your time and energy as a volunteer earns that same right.

[Stonewall]

^^^And remember, not all MILITARY OFFICERS hold a degree.  There are state OCS programs that will commission you with 60 credits.  There are Limited Duty Officers in the Navy who are prior senior enlisted but have no requirement for college.  And of course, don't forget Warrant Officers.  One of my best friends and fellow former cadet is a CW-3 and just finished an associates degree and he's been a Warrant for 10 years now.

Just saying:  Military Officers does not always = 4 year degree.

[DNall]

^ regarding that. 95%+ of all adult members would give up their choice in the matter if given solid job protection in line with guard/reserve. More so if you pay per diem to help offset (at least in part) lost wages.

Well yeah, that would be like winning the lottery.  Getting to do what you love, plus not having to worry about your job AND get per diem. 

That's my point. What guard/reserve take just about for granted we as CAP members don't get. Therein is the sacrifice on one side & limitation on the other.  I VERY much doubt most guard/reserve troops would be willing to tolerate the sacrifices required of a CAP member, even if they were getting paid for it.
I understand employer hassles. We deal with those a lot. We're proactive about it & work hard to take care of our soldiers, but there's still problems. When that happens, employers get threatened by the boss w/ legal action. That tends to straighten them up.

There's some fed employees in the unit, but I don't have a lot of experience with them. I got one SSG that works for me, is a border patrol agent, and absolutely no problems with his job, not even when we put him on a short notice slot for BNCOC.

^^^And remember, not all MILITARY OFFICERS hold a degree.  There are state OCS programs that will commission you with 60 credits.  There are Limited Duty Officers in the Navy who are prior senior enlisted but have no requirement for college.  And of course, don't forget Warrant Officers.  One of my best friends and fellow former cadet is a CW-3 and just finished an associates degree and he's been a Warrant for 10 years now.

Just saying:  Military Officers does not always = 4 year degree.

State OCS requires 60hrs to start & 90hrs to commission. Aviation WO for AD Army requires no college, but very highly recommended to be competitive. WOCS for guard requires 90hrs, I believe.

Anyway, college is not what makes an officer. It's a prereq, like scoring a certain level on the ASVAB (which is also a req in the Army). It just demonstrates your tenacity & ability to learn higher thought stuff, and generally that you're not an idiot.

What makes you an officer is getting the crap kicked out of you in a commissioning program that absolutely sucks nuts. And that's not even true either. That's paying your dues for the right to wear officer rank. Actually being an officer is something you learn as a dumb LT getting mentored by your NCOs as you slowly extract head from fourth point.

I think a lot of the complaint outsiders have about our officers is 1) they hadn't paid their proverbial dues to earn it; and, 2) they aren't competent in the job at the most basic levels expected of the most junior people.

I'll give you an example... I was teaching a GT school this wknd. One of the GTL-Ts was trying to execute a mission using the plan & brief from the task guide, which some idiot decided didn't need to come with the 8 troop leading procedures so you know how to apply it to reality. He's going by the book & a decently highspeed smart guy, but just lost. I spend 15 mins showing him how TLPs make cause that task to make sense, which in turn solves the total lack of control & organization going on in his op. Get to watch the light go on when he figures it out. Now he's squared away.

That's such a simple thing that any junior NCO would understand, and any officer candidate would have pounded mercilessly into them until it's automatic. We miss stuff like that in CAP, which leads to bad planning & overall low competence. It's not that we're not capable, it's just we're not building basic foundations. You put that in the field with viewers that have an expectation of competence in line with a RM standard, yeah that's going to not make for good press.

[SAR-EMT1]

Well, I thought I ought to report back.

At the start of my last shift I gave a very brief report of the encounter to the white shirts. The simple solution was to get some scheduling tweeked.
I was also assured that no blue shirt, no matter how experienced, has any say in hires/fires.

To answer some questions:
the guys involved have never been directly associated with CAP.

The parade they saw had a jr high aged color guard with poor uniforms, poor drill and general shoddiness when compared to the VFW, Legion and Guard Color Guards they were with.

Operationally they have both done co-op work with ILWG during SAREX's - through FD participation.  Generally werent impressed.

- MABAS also tasks
Water Rescue/ Dive Team
and

URBAN SAR

Also they both reported participating with CAP in a real mission capacity several years ago when a Tornado took out parts of the state capitol.
Evidently some CAP types were assigned to help a FD damage assessment team.
While the FD recorded things such as structural integrity lost, or the probable cost of repairs, the CAP types were merely writing " tree hit house"

-- I was not in Springfield, so i have no knowledge of the validity here.

The checkride was in reference to a damage assessment demo or something like that, conducted for the state EMA, which in IL relies on MABAS as the premier
resource.
Finally as far as there personalities. Up to this point i never had a problem and thought they were great guys. They seem to get along great with everyone else...

Anyway, just wanted to post an update.

[SAR-EMT1]

I also want to thank all of you for the kind words and support.

If it happens again, I'll drop an address on here.

[DNall]

the guys involved have never been directly associated with CAP.

The parade they saw had a jr high aged color guard with poor uniforms, poor drill and general shoddiness when compared to the VFW, Legion and Guard Color Guards they were with.

That's unfortunate. Obviously we all need to be cognizant that we're putting our people in the public eye with public expectations based on RM, not the boy scouts. Those results will reflect on us, and do cross over to operational trust, unfortunately. You're community parade is not necessarily a time for you to let your cadets color guard out in public just so they can. They need to be squared away first. The same goes for all of us with regard to appearance & behavior. We all know this, but regular reinforcement is always a good idea.

Operationally they have both done co-op work with ILWG during SAREX's - through FD participation.  Generally werent impressed.

- MABAS also tasks
Water Rescue/ Dive Team
and

URBAN SAR

Also they both reported participating with CAP in a real mission capacity several years ago when a Tornado took out parts of the state capitol.
Evidently some CAP types were assigned to help a FD damage assessment team.
While the FD recorded things such as structural integrity lost, or the probable cost of repairs, the CAP types were merely writing " tree hit house"

-- I was not in Springfield, so i have no knowledge of the validity here.

The checkride was in reference to a damage assessment demo or something like that, conducted for the state EMA, which in IL relies on MABAS as the premier
resource.

I'm sorry that their experience with CAP was less than stellar. Again this is something we need to work on. As ELTs go away, damage assessment is something we need to get a lot better at. FDs are experienced in evaluating single structures, we're not. What we've traditionally done in this area is big picture survey to determine what areas are most impacted, short of what critical services, and in need of most & what types of relief resources. We're not insurance damage adjusters. We shouldn't be evaluating a single structure. At the same time, I would hope we can be more competent than, "tree hit house." You can't do a legitimate wide area survey if you don't have some idea of the pieces that make up that big picture. That sounds like an important bit from an AAR that we need to train further on.

[JoeTomasone]

As ELTs go away

Come again?

We're still going to have to track down a large number of 406Mhz ELTs after next February.

[SAR-EMT1]

As ELTs go away

Come again?

We're still going to have to track down a large number of 406Mhz ELTs after next February.

How?
Its my understanding that they will be GPS equipped and that upon a signal the AFRCC will call the nearest PD with a location precise to a few feet. The USAF will completely bypass CAP

Tag spacing - MIKE

[JoeTomasone]

1.  406 Mhz beacons are not mandatory; you can still keep/use your 121.5, just that SARSAT won't pick it up.  If it's heard some other way (airfield, overhead aircraft, etc), it will still wind up in AFRCC's hands.

2.  406 beacons CAN be registered but there is no REQUIREMENT to do so.  (Note: Cospas-Sarsat says "may be registered", NOAA says it's required - perhaps for EPIRBS only?)   Therefore the "phone call deactivation" is not a certainty.    Plus, aircraft registered to anyone (business/clubs especially) that don't provide after-hours contact info (again, not a requirement) will be unreachable during night missions. 
http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/ibrd/faq_E.htm#what_happens_not_registered

3.  406 beacons can optionally have GPS capability, but it is not required and is an extra expense.   If the unit has no GPS, then it's located via doppler shift much like the 121.5's are today.  The accuracy is better (2-3nm miles versus 12nm for 121.5), but even GPS is limited to 300' - and that's a decent amount of space in which to find aircraft on a field or vessels at a marina.  If it's not registered, there's still a search to be made.

4.  Testing has shown that the GPS units are not reliable on many models of PLB and EPIRB due to GPS obstruction, failure to acquire a position in time to be beaconed to the SARSAT, and other reasons. 
http://www.equipped.org/406_beacon_test_summary.htm

5.  The GPS signal is close to the 13th harmonic of the 121.5 signal that the beacon will be transmitting, which may impact GPS acquisition.
http://www.equipped.org/406_beacon_test_background.htm


6.  AOPA is against any mandatory switchover.
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/elt.html

7.  According to NOAA, "Registration mandatory since 1994. 90% beacons registered.  About 70% of false alerts are resolved by a phone or radio call to registration POCs prior to launching SAR assets."  This means that 10% are not registered, and 30% of the registered beacons are not resolved via phone call. 



And something else to keep in mind with the GPS coordinates:

"This location information is updated once every 20 minutes for beacons with internal GPS. If the location is not updated, after four hours the location data is removed from the transmission. Those beacons that rely upon an external GPS do not update GPS information unless the beacon is switched off and then on again, in accordance with COSPAS-SARSAT standards."
http://www.equipped.org/406_beacon_test_background.htm


   - Joe


</hijack>

[DNall]

No one is saying there will be zero ELTs to track by some date in the near future. However, any reasonable person understands 406 is already being widely used & will massively decrease the number of false activations that need to be tracked down. That's a good thing.

The problem for CAP is that w/o those false alarms we don't have enough mission to justify our resources, keep our people trained, and keep folks motivated to stay qual'd. We have to evolve to some other things within the AF domestic mission set - meaning mostly the other things 1AF does, which is disaster & HLS. That requires stepping up on NIMS, and that's going to be painful for a lot of members to meet real world responder standards.

So CAP does face some issues & we do need to work hard to change from the org that could present the poor image these guys saw, to an org that can respond to real emergencies in the future with qual'd people & the right tools for the job.

[JoeTomasone]

No one is saying there will be zero ELTs to track by some date in the near future. However, any reasonable person understands 406 is already being widely used & will massively decrease the number of false activations that need to be tracked down. That's a good thing.

Quite frankly, I'd say that it wouldn't decrease the number of false alarms at all - the 406's will activate the same way as they do now - hard landings, maintenance, inversion, etc.    The difference will be that the registered beacons have a good likelyhood of being silenced with a phone call.   But the unregistered units will have to be located, as well as the registered ones for whom no contact can be established.   So I see our UDF mission decreasing somewhat, but not "massively".   

[Al Sayre]

The big difference will be a LOT more flying required on the 121.5 ELT's.  Instead of a 15 mile radius from a lat-long from the satellite, it'll be "reported by FUBAR Air 123 at 27,000 feet over East Nowhere VOR".  You now have a search radius of around 100 miles...

[JoeTomasone]

...And that possibility speaks well towards having members able to monitor all three frequencies with a scanner and decent outdoor antenna so that if we have one reported, maybe someone on the ground will hear it.

Of course, we can have CAP aircraft flying at 100' to localize it - but that might upset some folks. 

[SARMedTech]

Something for everyone to understand

MABAS
Mutual Aid Box Alarm System

is an incredibly well organized mutual aid network which started in Illinois.  MABAS coordinates, and credentials emergency responders in a number of disciplines.  Including:

Fire Fighting
Tech Rescue
Haz-Mat

I can only imagine that CAP's independent attitude, and lack of NIMS compliancy has rubbed a few MABAS types the wrong way. 

I can only imagine how MABAS resources feel when CAP cant even meet the minimum requirements for mutual aid, and you often times hold yourself out as the "Federal" SAR asset. 

It also doesn't help that CAP would never pay the MABAS membership fees.

Is there any complaint that the AF isn't a member? Why would CAP associate in a local mutual aid system. We're not here for them & will not deploy on their authority. We're here to help the AF, to a lesser extent the rest of DoD (Army disaster response), to a lesser extent the rest of the fed govt (including FEMA & DHS), and to much lesser extent state govts when they are completely overpowered by the situation. We come in only after systems like mutual aid don't have the right resources or have failed to meet the need.

I'd also point out that FEMA/DHS liked this system that MABAS is running so well that they are in the process of making them obsolete. The whole NIMS process is meant to create such a federally controlled & funded system, including credentialing & mutual aid. Those standards are still under development. The compliance standards at this point are more about procedure & basic understanding. There is no set of reqs in force at this point that differentiate between capable rescuers & morons.

MABAS is by no stretch of the imagination becoming obsolete. I think this demonstrates that you don't know much about the organization or you would know that while it started in IL it now takes in member departments in several Midwestern States.  Please cite your source for the obsolescence of MABAS.

[MIKE]

Holy topic drift Batman!

[JoeTomasone]

Yeah, I was just looking for a good UDF post to jump this to. 

[tjaxe]

I would take TOTAL exception with your co-workers' attitude.  If it were me -- first I'd have to count to 10 about thirty times to cool off THEN -- I'd paste something like this to my locker.  These are just two recent cases of Civil Air Patrol members killed in the line of duty. We certainly are NOT just glorified Boy Scouts.

"Capt. Anthony J. Synodinos, the mission pilot, and 1st Lt. Edward G. Conrad, the mission observer, were on a search and rescue mission on April 6, 1954 that stretched from Long Island, N.Y. to Langley Field, Va. for a missing T-33 military jet that was never found. They were both members of the East Baltimore Squadron and had been in the air for about an hour, searching the Upper Bay in heavy fog, when their open-cockpit Ryan PT-22 airplane crashed into the water at 1:05 p.m."  (2004,
http://www.mdcap.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=article.display&articleID=76)

"Three members of Wyoming's Civil Air Patrol, out searching for a missing teen, were killed when their plane crashed in the Bighorn National Forest, authorities said Tuesday.... The pilot of the Cessna 182R was identified Tuesday night as Lt. Col. James Henderson, 59, of Cowley. The two passengers were Senior Member James Meyer, 53, of Sheridan; and Capt. Patricia Larson, 52, of Sheridan, Stone-Hunter said." (2007, http://www.wyomingnews.com/articles/2007/08/22/news/18local_08-22-07.txt)

[isuhawkeye]

and they respond with the hundreds of fire and ems providers who are killed and injured in the line of duty every year?

www.thesecretlist.com

[DNall]

MABAS is by no stretch of the imagination becoming obsolete. I think this demonstrates that you don't know much about the organization or you would know that while it started in IL it now takes in member departments in several Midwestern States.  Please cite your source for the obsolescence of MABAS.

I believe it is. Not so much what they're doing, but the organization itself. I believe FEMA under the NIMS system is trying to do exactly what MABAS does now, but on a national scale with FEMA in the driver's seat. When they eventually get their crap together, there won't be a need any longer for a regional duplication of the effort.

[RiverAux]

and they respond with the hundreds of fire and ems providers who are killed and injured in the line of duty every year?

www.thesecretlist.com

The point wasn't to compare our risks to theirs but to show that CAP members do sacrifice for their country on an unfortunately regular basis. 

[tjaxe]

^ Exactly.

[isuhawkeye]

I don't think that will have the impact that you hope it will.

Though these individuals payed the ultimate sacrafice I do not believe that sacrafice is widley recognized, or appreciated.

[MikeD]

There's some fed employees in the unit, but I don't have a lot of experience with them. I got one SSG that works for me, is a border patrol agent, and absolutely no problems with his job, not even when we put him on a short notice slot for BNCOC.

Can you find out if that's just his boss, or he has a lot of leave/comp time, or if there's some federal policy on that?  As far as I know civil service only get 2 weeks of military leave a year.

[cap801]

Typically, I'm one of those people that tries to get everyone to see thing my way, but in this instance, I'd let out-of-touch-with-reality dogs lie.  It seems apparent that both of these individuals are so seeped in their hatred for this organization that little will be done to rectify the situation.  As the OP has already said, the issue has been dealt with in a non confrontational manner, and I think that anyone on these boards trying to offer counter-arguments for why CAP is a great organization (which is a good cause, nonetheless) will be wasting his or her breath.  I learned long ago that you can't fix stupid, and when I occasionally forget that I ended up wasting resources on a lost cause.

I also think that anyone who believes CAP is similar to first responders like firemen or police, or tries to be similar is just poorly mistaken.  CAP is here because a few guys back in 1941 saw the burgeoning general aviation sector as a valuable tool in certain situations.  At the time, that tool was as a platform to drop bombs on U-boats.  Now, it's a variety of things, and certainly not limited to locating ELT's.  My wing is going to be part of an annual exercise on Memorial Day weekend at Elephant Butte lake where CAP provides reconnaissance to the Coast Guard about boaters in distress as well as illegal activities (such as setting of fireworks).  Last year, my squadron's aircraft spotted a boat just after it caught fire and immediately alerted the Coast Guard for assistance.  Someone tell me what PD or FD or MABAS group can do something like that?

The thought that these other organizations are better than CAP or vice-versa goes to apples and oranges:  they're just different.  You wouldn't expect the Army to launch a naval assault and you wouldn't expect the Air Force to go rescue a boater in a hurricane.  They're just different.  Such is the nature of CAP.

[DNall]

There's some fed employees in the unit, but I don't have a lot of experience with them. I got one SSG that works for me, is a border patrol agent, and absolutely no problems with his job, not even when we put him on a short notice slot for BNCOC.

Can you find out if that's just his boss, or he has a lot of leave/comp time, or if there's some federal policy on that?  As far as I know civil service only get 2 weeks of military leave a year.

He's at BNCOC while the unit is at AT, so he's not missing additional time, it was just short notice for dif dates.

You have to remember it works both ways too. This same guy needs to go to a couple month long course for his job soon. He's going to miss drill & that's fine. We'll just find another time so he can keep it a good year. 

[Cecil DP]

There's some fed employees in the unit, but I don't have a lot of experience with them. I got one SSG that works for me, is a border patrol agent, and absolutely no problems with his job, not even when we put him on a short notice slot for BNCOC.

Can you find out if that's just his boss, or he has a lot of leave/comp time, or if there's some federal policy on that?  As far as I know civil service only get 2 weeks of military leave a year.

To be specific it's two weeks of paid leave (actually 15 days in most cases which is 3 work weeks (Your normal days off don't count), but if the military says go to school or an assignment for 6 months, they're still required to let you go until the military releases you.

[DNall]

Which doesn't mean employers (including fed agencies) won't make trouble for employees from time to time. It's important in those cases to have a highly supportive chain of command. In our case, we take it personal when people mess with our soldiers, so we slap them around a bit in hope sit won't happen again.

[MIKE]

Drift terminated.